DeepSight:

Before you ask, I think I defined spirit somewhere on this thread -

https://www.nairaland.com/6942843/matter-mind/7#109541872

DeepSight:
@ LordReed, triplechoice -

Definition & Description of Spirit - (for the purposes of this discussion):

The vital principle, essential animating force and root-consciousness (of living, sentient and sapient beings).

It manifests itself in the world of matter principally through the physical body, and engages in activity therein and has experiences thereby, but its consistency is of a lighter nature than matter, which is heavy by comparison. It has its domicile in the spiritual dimension with which it shares the same consistency and nature, and which dimension is different from, and lighter than the world of matter, even if attached to the world of matter.

Consistency implies physical matter, and would answer the question what. Domicile implies a particular location, and would answer the question where. Dimension implies size, and would partly answer what. And all 3 remind me of being and time and space, the fundamentals of matter.

Would you understand therefore if the very next question after the aboves would be, show me where this spirit is so I can see for myself what it is made of?

Unless you are asking to be believed, of course.

DeepSight:


But what I mean here is that the spirit is the core intangible root consciousness of being. Whereas the mind may be viewed as that intangible space where the spirit meets the body, where our memories, worldly identity and daily self consciousness reside, and where we think and organize our lives and our activity, the realm of our thoughts.

I wonder if more accurate would not be, "the spirit is the core intangible root unconsciousness of being", which I'd still hesitate to accept.

Your description view kind of shifts the conscious on to the mind.

DeepSight:


At all.
Even in everyday parlance, people distinguish between thinking with their "head" and not their "heart." Although this is only a rough analogy: for you can respond by saying that emotions arise from the activity of the head anyway, and that the heart is merely used symbolically, which will in a sense be true. But what I mean here is that the spirit is the core intangible root consciousness of being. Whereas the mind may be viewed as that intangible space where the spirit meets the body, where our memories, worldly identity and daily self consciousness reside, and where we think and organize our lives and our activity, the realm of our thoughts. This space is of course, as I said, connected with the body in this material realm, it influences the body just as the body influences it.

Glad for this clarification because it seems I have been thinking your viewpoint is that spirit and mind are the same thing.

So going by your clarification, the mind is like an interface?

LordReed:


Glad for this clarification because it seems I have thinking your viewpoint is that spirit and mind are the same thing.

So going by your clarification, the mind is like an interface?

Gbam.

DeepSight:


Gbam.

I see.

budaatum:


I wonder if more accurate would not be, "the spirit is the core intangible root unconsciousness of being", which I'd still hesitate to accept.

Your description view kind of shifts the conscious on to the mind.

I understand where you are coming from here and in fact I am tempted to fully agree, save the fact that in my particular view of things, the mind deals more with self-consciousness and thus the daily or waking consciousness of a person whereas the spirit is more root or original consciousness. This goes deep into the recesses of a being, through and beyond the sub-conscious (where the mind is also entangled) right up to the unconscious.

If I were to make a rough analogy with a computer, I would say the body is the hardware, the mind is the soft-ware, the spirit is the electric power that vitalizes the entire system.

DeepSight:

I understand where you are coming from here and in fact I am tempted to fully agree, save the fact that in my particular view of things, the mind deals more with self-consciousness and thus the daily or waking consciousness of a person whereas the spirit is more root or original consciousness.

I acknowledge your "in my particular view of things", but does that not depend on the depth of your sight?

"The mind deals more with self-consciousness" would imply a lack of its complicity in me loosing my mind, though that was not my point. I was merely pointing out the muddle you wrote yourself into and presented as a definition of the spirit to which you gave a material being and a physical space to without showing how or where.

DeepSight:
This goes deep into the recesses of a being, through and beyond the sub-conscious (where the mind is also entangled) right up to the unconscious.

What is the "sub-conscious", and how did you arrive at this "my particular view of things"?

DeepSight:
If I were to make a rough analogy with a computer, I would say the body is the hardware, the mind is the soft-ware, the spirit is the electric power that vitalizes the entire system.

My Lord and I have this joke whereby we find religion distorting and interfering with proper sight and thought, and his might be an example.

Can you see how you've trinitarised? Can you consider a quarternity?

The mind is not the soft-ware unless you have a programmer who must enspirit the hardware, hence God or one's master or oneself educating the mind which is then what resources and empowers and vitalizes the entire system of the being, I would think. Electric power does after all not come like manna from Gods in heaven but must be generated from available resources.

In my particular view of things, of course.

That said, consider the following that seems to suggest the DNA is the book of one's life. Sounds like the path one is vitalized to unwaveringly follow.

Sorry I did not quote you Mr President. I wouldn't want you to think I endorse your particular view of things.

https://www.today.com/today/amp/rcna42820

I wonder if her “mind” and “spirit” survived.

KnownUnknown:
https://www.today.com/today/amp/rcna42820

I wonder if her “mind” and “spirit” survived.

Reminds me of when my legs got paralysed. It was like the spirit I sent from my head did not arrive at my toes.

budaatum:


Reminds me of when my legs got paralysed. It was like the spirit I sent from my head did not arrive at my toes.

Awww, my poor Buda. It must have been your thetan preventing the spirit from doing its job.

KnownUnknown:


Awww, my poor Buda. It must have been your thetan preventing the spirit from doing its job.

Next time when the light bulb in your room suddenly goes off, remove the dead bulb and stick your naked fingers into the sucket to test if it contains electric current.

Hope this make some sense?

LordReed:
Triplechoice, Deepsight

How would your view on the mind question explain this:

In a remarkable breakthrough, scientists from Israel have discovered that they can use saliva samples to quickly and accurately diagnose people suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).

In a study published in Nature’s Molecular Psychiatry magazine, researchers from Tel Aviv and Haifa Universities took saliva samples and investigated the psychological, social and medical conditions of about 200 Israeli veteran soldiers.

They discovered that soldiers who had experienced combat stress related reactions from Israel’s first war with Lebanon in 1982, and were still suffering post-trauma, showed a typical microbial picture in their saliva.

https://www.israel21c.org/study-ptsd-sufferers-share-bacterial-footprint-in-saliva/

Double post Sorry. Just deleted this

LordReed:
Triplechoice, Deepsight

How would your view on the mind question explain this:

In a remarkable breakthrough, scientists from Israel have discovered that they can use saliva samples to quickly and accurately diagnose people suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).

In a study published in Nature’s Molecular Psychiatry magazine, researchers from Tel Aviv and Haifa Universities took saliva samples and investigated the psychological, social and medical conditions of about 200 Israeli veteran soldiers.

They discovered that soldiers who had experienced combat stress related reactions from Israel’s first war with Lebanon in 1982, and were still suffering post-trauma, showed a typical microbial picture in their saliva.

https://www.israel21c.org/study-ptsd-sufferers-share-bacterial-footprint-in-saliva/

The bacterial footprint found in the saliva is effect created by what goes on in the mind of those suffering from PTSD.

A diseased mind results in a diseased body and vice versa.

The mind is not something that is tangible or is it something located in a physical space inside of us. It's location is similar to our dream world that we experience each time we go to sleep, and it's known that what happens in our dreams sometimes affects our physical bodies through the brain.

While dreaming, we are most times drawn in to experiencing in pictures the thoughts inside our minds or brains if you prefer that, with what is experienced not viewed by others but ourselves alone..

So in summary, it should be understood that the mind is the inner mental construct that serves the being which has occupied a human body.

It is not something tangible, neither is it located in a physical space inside anyone

At death, mind is dissolved but memories contained in mind is retained in what is called the root consciousness, the real being.

It is for this reason some persons can recall
memories of their previous lives in a new body. Everyone who has lived before can recall their previous lifetime if they choose to. There are methods one can use to have this recall, and with what is recalled subjected to
some validation to ensure the individual is not just imagining things as a past life recall.

triplechoice:


Next time when the light bulb in your room suddenly goes off, remove the dead bulb and stick your naked fingers into the sucket to test if it contains electric current.

Hope this make some sense?

Then I’ll tell you about my experience in the Afterlife where my spirit will combine with my thetan.

KnownUnknown:


Then I’ll tell you about my experience in the Afterlife where my spirit will combine with my thetan.

Thanks. I not interested in listening to your delusion.

triplechoice:

Thanks. I not interested in listening to your delusion.

Lol. In that case, I’ll put my finger in a socket if you jump off a modestly tall building.

LordReed:
@triplechoice
Why does it seem blind people don't have visual NDEs?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc799333/m2/1/high_res_d/vol16-no2-101.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjMj4SY2qj4AhU3gM4BHXvCBFAQFnoECAUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1w1VVHqNtQET6f9661Qimw

I read the article, and it actually suggests the opposite. Very often do blind people report having visual NDEs and OBEs. I stand to be corrected.

Afromentalist:

I read the article, and it actually suggests the opposite. Very often do blind people report having visual NDEs and OBEs. I stand to be corrected.

From page 146 of the report:

The story of Sarah implied that she really could see during her NDE, in the way that a sighted person might. We have shown this is an unwarranted inference. What seemed like an analog to physical sight really was not when examined closely.

LordReed:


From page 146 of the report:

The story of Sarah implied that she really could see during her NDE, in the way that a sighted person might. We have shown this is an unwarranted inference. What seemed like an analog to physical sight really was not when examined closely.

I would investigate first before accepting if anyone born blind reports having sight while having an NDE or OBE.

I am not saying it's not possible for those born blind not to see something, but it's very rare. It would take an highly evolved soul who is born blind to start to see something immediately they have their consciousness operating outside their bodies.

The question to ask concerning those reports is this, How is it possible for someone who has never seen anything before while in their physical bodies to report that they have sight during OBE or NDE when they don't have any memories of ever seeing before or know what it means to see?

But if the blind person already has memories of what it means to see before they went blind, then it is possible to see since they already know what it means .

However, it would take some adjusting of the blind person's perception outside their physical bodies to see anything

The time it takes to make this adjustment is dependent on the level of awareness of the blind person

It can happen immediately, not immediately or not all, as the blind may not have the time to make this adjustment before returning back to their physical bodies.

Consciousness requires a brain ,while in the physical body ,to receive impressions it interprets in order to make sense of what is going on in its immediate enviroment, and also to help to control the physical body to keep it going. But outside the body it doesn't require a brain to control anything since it is now operating without a physical body and can perceive things directly without the need of the five physical senses ,with what is perceived flashed across the mind/brain so one can have a recall of whatever one has experienced outside the body

This explanation is necessary because current brain theory says consciousness is controlled by the brain. That is true to a certain extent, but not completely true. It is within the physical body alone that consciousness requires a brain to operate the body. Outside the physical body it can operate unhindered by the brain. This is simple to understand but it is not understood by everyone. For instance, while in my car moving from one point to another, the car engine which acts as the 'brain' to make the car to move , but outside my car taking a stroll, I don't need the car and it's engine to move about. I can walk freely. Also I don't need my car mirror to view what is behind me . If I want to see anything I use my eyes.That is it.



Then for those born blind, how is it possible for some to have sight during NDE?

I already mentioned that what one experience outside their bodies is dependent one the individual's level of awareness.

So, a highly evolved soul who has lived before and still retain memories in their consciousness of what it means to see from a previous lifetime, may recall that experience and instantaneously make the adjustment to see something.

I understand the reason you have shared the above link. It is to support the idea that out of NDE or OBE are not real or are a product of hallucination.

Yes, majority of NDE experience are a product of hallucination caused by what one expect to see or experience if one finds himself outside their bodies.
Consciousness, the real being, while operating outside the human body, has the capacity to imstantenously experience anything it imagines or memories that it carries within it.

So ,a Christian, just like in a dream, may experience Jesus heaven, or hell during an NDE, and believes those experience are real without the understanding of what has caused it. And when the come out from the experience ,they are convinced and excited to report that heaven and hell are real.

A Muslim is expected to see something anything connected with their religion. For instance, 72 virgins with large eyes a massive breast to enjoy himself with.

Adherents of other religion, have NDEs that conforms to what they belief and expect to see.

One thing that is common with most people having NDE or OBE is that they have no control over what the experience. They are having the experience unconsciously and so cannot control it.

The other type of NDE or OBE is the one that comes with veridical vision; the experiencer has a direct perception of objective reality, that is, the person sees something that is actually there, and when they return back to their body, it is confirmed that what they witnessed from outside their body actually exist and it is not imagination.

This particular NDE or OBE is a mystery for scientist who investigate this phenomenon to explain. Some scientist who think it's not possible to have this sort of NDE because current brain theory in the sciences says it is possible to have consciousness operating outside the body, have written articles to shamelessly tag such experience as still hallucination, while ignoring the obvious truth that if the experiencer is able to see something that correspond to objective reality, while having that form of NDE, it can never be classified as hallucination.

But the honest ones simply say it is a mystery to them or they are unverified stories at this stage since they constrained by current scientific knowledge in accepting those kind of experience as real.

There have been studies conducted into making sense of this other kind of NDE, but it has yeided the much needed success. The reason, I already mentioned it, is that most ,if not all ,of the subjects used in those studies don't have any control over their NDE or OBE experience. This is something they do not put into investigation while conducting those investigation
But I can tell you that some scientist are aware of this factor, but the challenge is to get those who can consciously do OBE at will and have also learnt to control the experience to participate in the investigation. I know, this is not making an excuse for anyone, that those who can do OBE at will and have achieved will never submit themselves to such investigation .
The solution is to learn how to do OBE themselves, so they have a direct experience of what they are trying to understand. They things one can do to have OBEs.

One cannot be investigating something one says it is not possible which others have experienced, and still think they can conduct such investigation without biases It is not possible.

The scientists who are in a better position to investigate NDEs or OBEs are agnostics scientist, not atheist or theist as they both would struggle to prevent subjective biases from interfering with whatever conclusion they would arrive at.

If anyone wants to be sure that OBEs are real , then they way to go is to have the experience yourself. It won't take anything from you, but you gain by knowing the truth directly yourself. There are ways and methods to achieve this. The Internet has a lot of resources that you can lay your hands on, and boom you are out of your body. But I advised you look for somebody to teach you how to do this personally, as some of the methods available online can contain sublimal suggestion to may drag one into experiencing what is delusion and you think you have had an authentic experience.

There's much more to say concerning NDEs or OBEs. I think what I have been explaining should be enough for now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbU3zdAgiX8

https://www.livescience.com/19106-death-experiences-lucid-dreams.html

Nelson said conclusions from the research should be "cautiously drawn" until the findings pass the peer-review process, but they are nonetheless well-aligned with prior research on NDEs. "Lucid dreaming can be conditioned and bears an uncanny similarity to near-death," Nelson told Life's Little Mysteries. "Indeed, Raduga's study demonstrates the similarity of near-death and lucid dreaming. Evidence from many sources converges to support that lucid dreaming and near-death use similar brain mechanisms but in different circumstances."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJtHdkyo0hc

triplechoice:

The bacterial footprint found in the saliva is effect created by what goes on in the mind of those suffering from PTSD.

A diseased mind results in a diseased body and vice versa.

The mind is not something that is tangible or is it something located in a physical space inside of us. It's location is similar to our dream world that we experience each time we go to sleep, and it's known that what happens in our dreams sometimes affects our physical bodies through the brain.

While dreaming, we are most times drawn in to experiencing in pictures the thoughts inside our minds or brains if you prefer that, with what is experienced not viewed by others but ourselves alone..

So in summary, it should be understood that the mind is the inner mental construct that serves the being which has occupied a human body.

It is not something tangible, neither is it located in a physical space inside anyone

At death, mind is dissolved but memories contained in mind is retained in what is called the root consciousness, the real being.

It is for this reason some persons can recall
memories of their previous lives in a new body. Everyone who has lived before can recall their previous lifetime if they choose to. There are methods one can use to have this recall, and with what is recalled subjected to
some validation to ensure the individual is not just imagining things as a past life recall.

Why would a diseased mind produce a diseased body, what's the link if the mind is just some intangible thing nor is it located in body?

KnownUnknown:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbU3zdAgiX8

OMG! Thanks for this!

triplechoice:

I understand the reason you have shared the above link. It is to support the idea that out of NDE or OBE are not real or are a product of hallucination.

If you read the report you'd have seen that the authors think NDEs are indicative of something transcendent so no that is not why I linked it. I linked it so that you can example to me how in your view a blind person can have OBEs or NDEs if they can't see. Does their consciousness or mind or whatever it is that leaves the body have eyes or how does it perceive the environment? A blind person cannot see the environment but if the OBE or NDE were actually real then they should be able to see the environment right? I am asking because that is not what is in evidence from this report.

LordReed:


From page 146 of the report:

The story of Sarah implied that she really could see during her NDE, in the way that a sighted person might. We have shown this is an unwarranted inference. What seemed like an analog to physical sight really was not when examined closely.

That is one case.

The authors acknowledged in other parts that others could see during their NDEs. Don't tell me you didn't read that too!

LordReed:


From page 146 of the report:

The story of Sarah implied that she really could see during her NDE, in the way that a sighted person might. We have shown this is an unwarranted inference. What seemed like an analog to physical sight really was not when examined closely.

From the very Abstract of the report:


Our findings revealed that blind persons, including those blind from birth, do report classic NDEs of the kind common to sighted persons; that the great preponderance of blind persons claim to see during NDEs and OBEs; and that occasionally claims of visually-based knowledge that could not have been obtained by normal means can be independently corroborated.

LordReed:


Why would a diseased mind produce a diseased body, what's the link if the mind is just some intangible thing nor is it located in body?

Not located in the sense I have used it simply means it's actual location can be regarded as mental at this point and not in a physical space that can be viewed with the naked human eyes or any know instrumentation. But it is there.

It is possible to 'see' thought forms which forms mind. Some persons are gifted with the ability to view, not with the naked eyes, what you're thinking and able to predict your next move.

When we sleep , we see thoughts as pictures, but it is not possible to see this same pictures by an external.observer using a brain scanner.

We know that what we sometimes dream about can trigger certain responses in our brains which forces our bodies to respond
by producing a corresponding effect which matches what we are dreaming about even we dont consider those experiences as real.Wet dreams for instance

Yes ,science says the brain create these imageries, but as it ever been seen by an external observal other than the person dreaming? Not at all.

However, the closest that we can see using highly sophisticated modern brain scanners, are thought energy, not pictures, issuing forth from the visible human brain of someone engaged in thinking, with what is seen still subjected to interpretation to determine what exactly the person is seeing in their heads.

You can go online to research this. I am surprised that you have not brought this up or maybe you don't know about it
It should be your strongest point in arguing that matter is responsible for consciousness. But nothing is conclusive yet. Scientist are still not sure



So with this breakthrough in the sciences, there's hope that in the future, scientist would improve on what they have invented and develop far more superior scanners that can see thoughforms as pictures. By then a lot of things that goes on within the human being would be clearly revealed just like we have scanners these days to view babies in the womb, something that wasn't possible in the past.

But there's a raging controversy in certain quarters that neuroscientists should not proceed further for ethical reasons as it would mean that in the future unscrupulous individuals in possession of such scanners can view in pictures what exactly you're dreaming or thinking about and predict your next move

Not a good thing really.

If this becomes a reality someday what do you think it would signify?

For me I would mean that what we have always know about thoughtforms interacting with brains to sometimes create effects is actually true, but because it can't be observed at the moment by everyone. it is not accepted to be true.

Scientists rely on what can be observed or demonstrated to draw inferences from.What they can currently see is the brain and nothing else.

But as I have mentioned before there are alternative methods by which on can peer further into reality to see things correctly as they're ,and know exactly what is going on within ourselves and those of others around us


Those who have used those alternative methods know better than what everyone else know currently, but are not in a position tprovide evidence that will acceptable to anyone in the main body of science.

In the end all will be revealed and we then know the actual truth about the human being.

Modified. Read about modern brain scanners that can read ones intention through the link below and let me know what you tbink


https://www.theguardian.com/science/2007/feb/09/neuroscience.ethicsofscience

LordReed:


If you read the report you'd have seen that the authors think NDEs are indicative of something transcendent so no that is not why I linked it. I linked it so that you can example to me how in your view a blind person can have OBEs or NDEs if they can't see. Does their consciousness or mind or whatever it is that leaves the body have eyes or how does it perceive the environment? A blind person cannot see the environment but if the OBE or NDE were actually real then they should be able to see the environment right? I am asking because that is not what is in evidence from this report.

If you go back to read what I replied you first, you will come across how it is possible for the blind to see outside the body, with what is seen transmitted to the physical brain through the pineal gland situated in the cent re of one's head

One sees the way we 'see' while dreaming. We don't see or hear with our physical eyes or hear while dreaming.
.

Honestly, if you have not experience this sort of thing directly, no amout of explanation would do.You will only try make sense of it from a physical perspective and not fully understanding much

If you study your dreams you could make some sense of how one sees outside the body

It needs to be experience than to talk about it. You're not able to know exactly how one sees without having the experience directly. One is not perceiving through the brain outside of the body


Besides, those who have had this experience don't check to see any eyes

Maybe when you have your own experience, you can check if you have one
Not everyone has the same experience of themselves outside their bodies

Some see an image of themselves similar to their their own physical body which is not 'real', others experience themselves as a globe of brilliant white light or surrounded by it

I mentioned before that it is not common for those born blind to see. I said so based what I confirmed to be true report and besides not everyone is willing to share their experience. So it may be common and I cannot deny this

I ignore the ones that are a product of hallucination, but it is still NDE with the content not corresponding to objective reality

triplechoice:


At death, mind is dissolved but memories contained in mind is retained in what is called the root consciousness, the real being.

You were doing so well until the above. There is no way to check if memories contained in mind is retained at death.

triplechoice:
It is for this reason some persons can recall
memories of their previous lives in a new body. Everyone who has lived before can recall their previous lifetime if they choose to. There are methods one can use to have this recall, and with what is recalled subjected to
some validation to ensure the individual is not just imagining things as a past life recall.

Sigh! Or should I say, pity such people do not write history books so their facts could be checked.

triplechoice:


This explanation is necessary because current brain theory says consciousness is controlled by the brain. That is true to a certain extent, but not completely true. It is within the physical body alone that consciousness requires a brain to operate the body. Outside the physical body it can operate unhindered by the brain. This is simple to understand but it is not understood by everyone. For instance, while in my car moving from one point to another, the car engine which acts as the 'brain' to make the car to move , but outside my car taking a stroll, I don't need the car and it's engine to move about. I can walk freely. Also I don't need my car mirror to view what is behind me . If I want to see anything I use my eyes.That is it.

It is simple to understand but it is definitely not true that "Outside the physical body it can operate unhindered".

Take your car engine. It does not in any way "act as the brain" and it can not walk freely. You car moves under the specific direction of the brain of the driver otherwise it remains in park, non-operated and hindered by its lack of a brain.