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Before I formed you in the womb I knew you". Jeremiah 1:5 (NKJV).

But if John 17 speaks of a predetermined role Judas was playing as shown John 17: 12, what was the exact sin of Judas Iscariot?

It presupposes his actions were out of his absolute control. But why did he cry and killed himself because of doing exactly what he was programmed to do?

Do we now seem to agree with Freud and Carl on the subconscious directing certain aspect of our lives as if it's automated?

What do think?

That's their problem. All that one no really concern me.
I wasn't there when all that happened, so it's non of my business.

The scriptures didn't mention any name so it could be anyone close to Jesus who can lead the Pharisees to arrest this man whose face they don't know.
Judas put himself in that condition due to his love for money {1Timothy 6:10} he used to manipulate others to keep whatever they get in the purse of their group which is with him and then steal the money for him own personal use. John 12:3-6
This takes us back to what Jesus said about those listening to him:

“Therefore, everyone who hears these sayings of mine and does them will be like a discreet man who built his house on the rock. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded on the rock. Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house, and it caved in, and its collapse was great.” Matthew 7 24-27

Judas failed to keep Jesus' sayings that's why Satan who is seeking anyone to devour could make use of him! 1Peter 5:8

So what happened to Jesus could have been someone else not necessarily Judas and of course only a close associate of Jesus could identify him!🙂

MaxInDHouse:
The scriptures didn't mention any name so it could be anyone close to Jesus who can lead the Pharisees to arrest this man whose face they don't know.
Judas put himself in that condition due to his love for money {1Timothy 6:10} he used to manipulate others to keep whatever they get in the purse of their group which is with him and then steal the money for him own personal use. John 12:3-6
This takes us back to what Jesus said about those listening to him:

“Therefore, everyone who hears these sayings of mine and does them will be like a discreet man who built his house on the rock. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded on the rock. Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house, and it caved in, and its collapse was great.” Matthew 7 24-27

Judas failed to keep Jesus' sayings that's why Satan who is seeking anyone to devour could make use of him! 1Peter 5:8

So what happened to Jesus could have been someone else not necessarily Judas and of course only a close associate of Jesus could identify him!🙂

From your explanation, do you think this was replicated to correct the scenario at the Garden of Eden?

dalitigator:
From your explanation, do you think this was replicated to correct the scenario at the Garden of Eden?

This is what the Bible teach:

When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone. But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death. James 1:13-15

So the first couple CHOSE to be rebels!

dalitigator:
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you". Jeremiah 1:5 (NKJV).

But if John 17 speaks of a predetermined role Judas was playing as shown John 17: 12, what was the exact sin of Judas Iscariot?

It presupposes his actions were out of his absolute control. But why did he cry and killed himself because of doing exactly what he was programmed to do?

Do we now seem to agree with Freud and Carl on the subconscious directing certain aspect of our lives as if it's automated?

What do think?

You make a great point, God certainly knew that Judas will betray Jesus Christ but the question is, was he programmed to do it or was it his choice?

One could argue that God knew it would be Judas who would betray Christ because He knew what Judas was capable of, He knew who Judas was.
Who was Judas?
Let's read a verse.
John 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Judas was chosen because he was already a devil. He was the only one capable of betraying Christ.
Now the questions the bible did not provide answers for are,
How did he become a devil?
When did he become a devil?

MaxInDHouse:
The scriptures didn't mention any name so it could be anyone close to Jesus who can lead the Pharisees to arrest this man whose face they don't know.

It couldn't have been anyone. Jesus Christ knew who it would be even before choosing him

tctrills:
It couldn't have been anyone. Jesus Christ knew who it would be even before choosing him.

Please can you quote this in the Bible?

Are you saying this must happen even if Judas Iscariot wasn't a lover of money?

Jesus knew by the actions and of course reading the thoughts going on in the minds of his followers so it could have been any other close associate of Jesus who loves material things.

MaxInDHouse:
Please can you quote this in the Bible?

Are you saying this must happen even if Judas Iscariot wasn't a lover of money?

Jesus knew by the actions and of course reading the thoughts going on in the minds of his followers so it could have been any other close associate of Jesus who loves material things.

Yes I can
Let's begin with Christ early in His ministry telling His apostles that one of them was a devil. John 6.70.
So it's clear that Judas was a devil long before he betrayed Christ and Jesus Christ knew this

tctrills:
Yes I can
Let's begin with Christ early in His ministry telling His apostles that one of them was a devil. John 6.70.
So it's clear that Judas was a devil long before he betrayed Christ and Jesus Christ knew this

Jesus answered them: “I chose you twelve, did I not? Yet one of you is a slanderer.” John 6:70

This hasn't confirmed that it must be Judas Iscariot rather Jesus believes the scriptures that it's one of his closest confidants!

Even the man at peace with me, one whom I trusted, Who was eating my bread, has lifted his heel against me. Psalms 41:9

So while teaching them Judas Iscariot wasn't satisfied with spiritual food {Luke 4:4} that is what led Satan to enter him {Luke 22:3} due to his love for money! 1Timothy 6: 10; Matthew 6:19-21; James 1:13-15

MaxInDHouse:
Jesus answered them: “I chose you twelve, did I not? Yet one of you is a slanderer.” John 6:70

This hasn't confirmed that it must be Judas Iscariot rather Jesus believes the scriptures that it's one of his closest confidants!

[

Actually, the very next verse confirmed it was Judas He was referring to.
Let's read it.

71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Now, what do we learn from this? 2 things.
1. Judas was a devil even before he betrayed Christ.
2. Jesus Christ knew he was a devil prior to choosing him.

Question to you,
From the verses above, when did Judas become a devil?
Was it before or after betraying Christ?

tctrills:
Actually, the very next verse confirmed it was Judas He was referring to.
Let's read it.
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Here John is telling readers of his gospel that Judas is the one who later fulfilled that part not that Jesus knew the person before choosing him.

tctrills:
Now, what do we learn from this? 2 things.
1. Judas was a devil even before he betrayed Christ.
2. Jesus Christ knew he was a devil prior to choosing him.
Question to you,
From the verses above, when did Judas become a devil?
Was it before or after betraying Christ?

The scriptures teaches us that Satan only seize opportunities when a sinner ignores divine guidance.

It happened to Cain before he killed Abel {Genesis 4:6-7} it happened to Peter who wanted to advise Jesus to go against God's will {Matthew 16:21-23} so Judas wasn't a devil incarnate but allowed Satan to use him due to his love for money! James 1:13-15

dalitigator:
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you". Jeremiah 1:5 (NKJV).

But if John 17 speaks of a predetermined role Judas was playing as shown John 17: 12, what was the exact sin of Judas Iscariot?

It presupposes his actions were out of his absolute control. But why did he cry and killed himself because of doing exactly what he was programmed to do?

Do we now seem to agree with Freud and Carl on the subconscious directing certain aspect of our lives as if it's automated?

What do think?

"Presupposes" as you presuppose and not certainty.

And his crying and remorse shows that he was aware that he was responsible for his choice and action.

And we all have seen that we are subject and have obeyed to 2 forces, one Good and the other evil and we are all conscious of it, so no excuse

tctrills:
You make a great point, God certainly knew that Judas will betray Jesus Christ but the question is, was he programmed to do it or was it his choice?

One could argue that God knew it would be Judas who would betray Christ because He knew what Judas was capable of, He knew who Judas was.
Who was Judas?
Let's read a verse.
John 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Judas was chosen because he was already a devil. He was the only one capable of betraying Christ.
Now the questions the bible did not provide answers for are,
How did he become a devil?
When did he become a devil?

Gabrielshow oya come and tell us who is judas's father based on this declaration! 🤣😁😁😁

Tctrills and co, you people clearly forget that God sees our secret minds, where we are even freest the most?

So, how can He not predict our actions?

Dtruthspeaker:
"Presupposes" as you presuppose and not certainty.

And his crying and remorse shows that he was aware that he was responsible for his choice and action.

And we all have seen that we are subject and have obeyed to 2 forces, one Good and the other evil and we are all conscious of it, so no excuse

How do you juxtapose this with the concept of the subconvious mind as propagated by Carl?

Was he aware before or became aware after?

dalitigator:
How do you juxtapose this with the concept of the subconvious mind as propagated by Carl?

Was he aware before or became aware after?

Every adult grows to be aware that if he does not hold himself something will push him to do that which he even said he will never do!

So, we are all aware that there are forces which push us sometimes against our will

MaxInDHouse:
Here John is telling readers of his gospel that Judas is the one who later fulfilled that part not that Jesus knew the person before choosing him.

Where did John state what you are saying.
Instead, he clearly says that Jesus Christ was referring to Judas. Please let's not add to the scripture.
It clearly says,
He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon.


Now, are you saying that Jesus Christ did not know that Judas was a devil?
Remember, Jesus Christ said, one of you is a devil not one of you will be a devil so it's clear that at that time, Judas was already a devil and Jesus Christ could identify him

What we need to figure out is whether Jesus chose a devil as an apostle or the once friendly disciple allowed Satan to use him!

tctrills:
Where did John state what you are saying.
Instead, he clearly says that Jesus Christ was referring to Judas. Please let's not add to the scripture.
It clearly says,
He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon.
Now, are you saying that Jesus Christ did not know that Judas was a devil?
Remember, Jesus Christ said, one of you is a devil not one of you will be a devil so it's clear that at that time, Judas was already a devil and Jesus Christ could identify him.

MaxInDHouse:
What we need to figure out is whether Jesus chose a devil as an apostle or the once friendly disciple allowed Satan to use him!

Jesus Christ already answered that.
I choose you but one is a devil. He is telling you that He knew He chose a devil.
It is already figured out.
If Judas became a devil much later, then it would be wrong to say "one of you is a devil"
He would have said,
"One of you will become a devil."

tctrills:
Jesus Christ already answered that.
I choose you but one is a devil. He is telling you that He knew He chose a devil.
It is already figured out.
If Judas became a devil much later, then it would be wrong to say "one of you is a devil"
He would have said,
"One of you will become a devil."

Jesus told Peter:

“Get behind me, Satan!" Matthew 16:23

Was Peter Satan?

MaxInDHouse:
Jesus told Peter:

“Get behind me, Satan!" Matthew 16:23

Was Peter Satan?

Please explain the relationship?
Are you saying that Peter was the devil spoken about in John 6.70?
Please kindly explain how what you've quoted above show that Jesus did not beforehand know that Judas was a devil.

tctrills:
Please explain the relationship?
Are you saying that Peter was the devil spoken about in John 6.70?
Please kindly explain how what you've quoted above show that Jesus did not beforehand know that Judas was a devil.

Let us even consider it from the angle of Jeremiah.

Jesus knew very well that one of his closest confidants will play the devil since that is exactly what the scriptures said before him {Psalms 41:9} so he is closely watching them to know who will be the one that's why he could call any of them Satan or devil whenever any of them takes such step.
Judas used to steal from the money box kept with him {John 12:3-6} that is a sign that the man is spiritually sick when it comes to materialism, Peter is spiritually sick when it comes to fear of men and majority of the twelve are sick spiritually when it comes to racism.
So Satan can seize these opportunities to gain control over the heart of anyone but one thing is certain it's one of Jesus' closest confidants that Satan will use since such a person must lead the Pharisees to wherever Jesus will be on the night of his arrest!

tctrills:
Please explain the relationship?
Are you saying that Peter was the devil spoken about in John 6.70?
Please kindly explain how what you've quoted above show that Jesus did not beforehand know that Judas was a devil.

MaxInDHouse:
Jesus knew very well that one of his closest confidants will play the devil since that is exactly what the scriptures said before him {Psalms 41:9} so he is closely watching them to know who will be the one that's why he could call any of them Satan or devil whenever any of them takes such step.
Judas used to steal from the money box kept with him {John 12:3-6} that is a sign that the man is spiritually sick when it comes to materialism, Peter is spiritually sick when it comes to fear of men and majority of the twelve are sick spiritually when it comes to racism.
So Satan can seize these opportunities to gain control over the heart of anyone but one thing is certain it's one of Jesus' closest confidants that Satan will use since such a person must lead the Pharisees to wherever Jesus will be on the night of his arrest!

But John 6.71 specifically said Jesus was talking of Judas not Peter or the other apostles and at that time, Judas was already a devil.
So let me get you, are you saying that Peter and the rest of the Apostles were also devils?
Remember, Jesus Christ made it clear, one of you is a devil not two not all of you.

Maxindhouse, tctrills is actually right. Yahushua the Messiah knew who was going to betray him from the outset. The Scriptures didn't mince words in that regard.

John 13:21 After he had said this, Yahushua was troubled in spirit and testified, “Very truly I tell you, one of you is going to betray me.”

22 His disciples stared at one another, at a loss to know which of them he meant. 23 One of them, the disciple whom Yahushua loved, was reclining next to him. 24 Simon Peter motioned to this disciple and said, “Ask him which one he means.”

25 Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, “Lord, who is it?”26 Yahushua answered, “It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.” Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. So Yahushua told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.” 28 But no one at the meal understood why Yahushua said this to him. 29 Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Yahushua was telling him to buy what was needed for the festival, or to give something to the poor. 30 As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.

The apostles didn't understand till after the event had taken place.

elated177:
Maxindhouse, tctrills is actually right. Yahushua the Messiah knew who was going to betray him from the outset. The Scriptures didn't mince words in that regard.

John 13:21 After he had said this, Yahushua was troubled in spirit and testified, “Very truly I tell you, one of you is going to betray me.”

22 His disciples stared at one another, at a loss to know which of them he meant. 23 One of them, the disciple whom Yahushua loved, was reclining next to him. 24 Simon Peter motioned to this disciple and said, “Ask him which one he means.”

25 Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, “Lord, who is it?”26 Yahushua answered, “It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.” Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. So Yahushua told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.” 28 But no one at the meal understood why Yahushua said this to him. 29 Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Yahushua was telling him to buy what was needed for the festival, or to give something to the poor. 30 As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.

The apostles didn't understand till after the event had taken place.

Absolutely true. Even Judas knew before Christ exposed him. Right?

Maxindhouse:

John 1:48 “How do you know me?” Nathanael asked. Yahushua answered, “I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you.”

Matthew 26:20 When evening came, Yahushua was reclining at the table with the Twelve. 21 And while they were eating, he said, “Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me.” 22 They were very sad and began to say to him one after the other, “Surely you don’t mean me, Lord?” 23 Yahushua replied, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.” 25 Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, “Surely you don’t mean me, Rabbi?” Yahushua answered, “You have said so".

2 Timothy 2:20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use.

Maxindhouse, Yahushua the Messiah didn't really call Peter Satan. Read what transpired in that portion of the Scripture very well.

Dalitigator, what do you think? Do you think Judas knew before he was exposed by the Messiah?

John wrote this after all the events not before!

tctrills:
But John 6.71 specifically said Jesus was talking of Judas not Peter or the other apostles and at that time, Judas was already a devil.
So let me get you, are you saying that Peter and the rest of the Apostles were also devils?
Remember, Jesus Christ made it clear, one of you is a devil not two not all of you.

Jesus knew through the words thought and actions not before choosing Judas!

elated177:
Maxindhouse, tctrills is actually right. Yahushua the Messiah knew who was going to betray him from the outset. The Scriptures didn't mince words in that regard.

John 13:21 After he had said this, Yahushua was troubled in spirit and testified, “Very truly I tell you, one of you is going to betray me.”

22 His disciples stared at one another, at a loss to know which of them he meant. 23 One of them, the disciple whom Yahushua loved, was reclining next to him. 24 Simon Peter motioned to this disciple and said, “Ask him which one he means.”

25 Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, “Lord, who is it?”26 Yahushua answered, “It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.” Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. So Yahushua told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.” 28 But no one at the meal understood why Yahushua said this to him. 29 Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Yahushua was telling him to buy what was needed for the festival, or to give something to the poor. 30 As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.

The apostles didn't understand till after the event had taken place.

The damaging aspect of this idea is that the wicked person has been predestined to be wicked so it's God's fault not theirs!😟

dalitigator:
Absolutely true. Even Judas knew before Christ exposed him. Right?