₦airaland Forum

Previously I asked atheists in the house a simple question: What is the source of your morality? I was curious to know what guides the conscience of atheists who reject all forms of religion.

https://www.nairaland.com/8660736/atheists-house-whats-source-morality

My question was not whether Christian morality is the best, nor whether the God of the Bible is the best. I simply wanted to know: if you reject God and religion altogether, what is the source of your moral convictions?

As usual, the discussion turned into an argument about the morality of the God of the Bible, you then begin to wonder if these atheists went to live in non Christian nations like India, Japan, Saudi Arabia, or somewhere else, they would still be atheists. Atheism means not believing in God; it does not mean merely rejecting the God of the Bible.

I asked about issues such as premarital sex involving teenagers, gender transition as a child, and homosexual unions. Most agreed these acts were immoral, but when I asked why, I did not receive a convincing answer. They simply wasted time attacking the Bible. Many argued you don't need religion to be moral. Fine—but if you don't need religion to be moral, then explain why certain things are immoral.

Some appealed to traditional values. But traditional values themselves come from somewhere. As Africans, for example, we have our own traditional and conservative values, and these have historically been connected to our religious beliefs, whether traditional or conventional.

Some appealed to ancient civilizations, but all ancient civilizations they mentioned—Mesopotamia, ancient Egypt, and others—were themselves deeply religious societies. Their moral systems were tied to their religious beliefs. People believed that certain behavior would please their gods and that other behavior would anger them and bring punishment.

Another thing I found interesting is that atheists in different societies can have very different moral positions. Many atheists in the Western world have no problem with homosexual unions, premarital sex among teenagers, or gender transition, but surprisingly atheist raised in conservative background will consider same thing as immoral. So how can two groups of atheists arrive at such different moral conclusions? none of them could give me a reasonable response.

My conclusion is that people are often shaped by the society in which they are raised. Someone can reject religion while continuing to benefit from a value system that was historically shaped by religious beliefs. They may no longer believe in the God who helped form that moral culture, but they consider the values produced by that culture and their deity useful for character building.

That is the point I was trying to make: some atheists benefit from a moral framework created or heavily influenced by religious people and religious traditions, while rejecting the religious foundation from which those values came.

If this is not hypocrisy, I don't know what else to call it.

Finally, my advice to wannable atheists—especially to those living in the Western world—is not to make the mistake of raising your children without a strong moral and religious framework. You may think you are simply allowing your child to choose freely, but your child will eventually grow up in a society with very different moral values and may come to you with choices about sexuality, relationships, or gender that you yourself may not agree with.

A word is enough for the wise, don't say SirTee didn't warn you.

I sm a Christian but I think this is a rather poor angle from which to attack atheism. Is religion the source of human empathy, evolutionary social instincts, reasoning, and shared cultural agreements??
Humans are social animals. Compassion and a basic instinct to avoid causing pain are natural traits that help groups survive and cooperate.
Communities create rules snd social contracts —such as laws against theft or harm—because life works better when people agree to respect each other. Personal values also come from culture, upbringing, family, education, history, and the surrounding society, which have evolved long before and alongside organized religion!

Atheism is a lone journey but no one can live on their own. Those who chose to leave alone will find every reason to justify their immoral behavior and those who walk in community or union will have constant clash of opinions because what is moral to one might not be to another raised in a different community or religion.

But most atheist fall back to state laws for their moral orientation only to find that those laws were made by religious group. so they hardly make reference to state laws but countries like US where some of their anti religious morality is justified.

QuinQQ:
I sm a Christian but I think this is a rather poor angle from which to attack atheism. Is religion the source of human empathy, evolutionary social instincts, reasoning, and shared cultural agreements??
Humans are social animals. Compassion and a basic instinct to avoid causing pain are natural traits that help groups survive and cooperate.
Communities create rules snd social contracts —such as laws against theft or harm—because life works better when people agree to respect each other. Personal values also come from culture, upbringing, family, education, history, and the surrounding society, which have evolved long before and alongside organized religion!

If u dont know the history of religion, I will advise u educate yourself and cure your ignorance. organised religion were well established thousands of years b4 the Abrahamic religion and there were well known moral codes governing those societies b4 God gave Moses the torah.
There is no known moral code that exist outside of a religious framework- none. all morality are shaped by religious belief system- be it ancient or modern

Below are ancient moral codes that existed even before God gave Moses the 10 commandment. All of them governed ancient civilizations and were based off beliefs in gods and attributed to them.


1. Ma’at moral code, c. 3100–300 BCE. Ancient Egypt; attributed to Ma’at, goddess of truth, justice, and cosmic order.

2. The Code of Ur-Nammu, c. 2100–2050 BCE. Sumer, Mesopotamia; attributed to Nanna/Sin, the moon god, patron deity of Ur.

3. Code of Hammurabi (first legal code known to mankind) c. 1754 BCE. Babylon, Mesopotamia; attributed to Shamash, god of justice and the sun, who gave the laws to King Hammurabi.

4. Hittite Laws, c. 1650–1500 BCE. Hittite Empire, Anatolia; attributed to The Storm God, Teshub, and the Hittite divine order

5. The 10 commandment Mosaic Law / Torah traditionally c. 1300–1200 BCE; attributed to Yahweh, who is described as giving the laws to Moses

6. Avesta / Zoroastrian moral law, teachings traditionally c. 1200–600 BCE; texts compiled later Ancient Persia/Iran; attributed to Ahura Mazda, supreme God of truth and wisdom

I REPEAT, THERE IS NO MORAL VALUES DEVELOPED INDEPENDENTLY OF RELIGIOUS BELIEF SYSTEM ANYWHERE. PEOPLE IN ANCIENT TIMES BELIEVED THE gods GAVE THEM THOSE MORAL CODES AS A WAY TO WORSHIP AND PLEASE THEM. THERE IS NO ANCIENT CIVILISATION THAT DEVELOPED ITS MORALITY OUTSIDE A RELIGIOUS FRAMEWORK- NONE

anybody arguing against this is simply ignorant.

SIRTee15:
If u dont know the history of religion, I will advise u educate yourself and cure your ignorance. organised religion were well established thousands of years b4 the Abrahamic religion and there were well known moral codes governing those societies b4 God gave Moses the torah.
There is no known moral code that exist outside of a religious framework- none. all morality are shaped by religious belief system- be it ancient or modern

Below are ancient moral codes that existed even before God gave Moses the 10 commandment. All of them governed ancient civilizations and were based off beliefs in gods and attributed to them.


1. Ma’at moral code, c. 3100–300 BCE. Ancient Egypt; attributed to Ma’at, goddess of truth, justice, and cosmic order.

2. The Code of Ur-Nammu, c. 2100–2050 BCE. Sumer, Mesopotamia; attributed to Nanna/Sin, the moon god, patron deity of Ur.

3. Code of Hammurabi (first legal code known to mankind) c. 1754 BCE. Babylon, Mesopotamia; attributed to Shamash, god of justice and the sun, who gave the laws to King Hammurabi.

4. Hittite Laws, c. 1650–1500 BCE. Hittite Empire, Anatolia; attributed to The Storm God, Teshub, and the Hittite divine order

5. The 10 commandment Mosaic Law / Torah traditionally c. 1300–1200 BCE; attributed to Yahweh, who is described as giving the laws to Moses

6. Avesta / Zoroastrian moral law, teachings traditionally c. 1200–600 BCE; texts compiled later Ancient Persia/Iran; attributed to Ahura Mazda, supreme God of truth and wisdom

I REPEAT, THERE IS NO MORAL VALUES DEVELOPED INDEPENDENTLY OF RELIGIOUS BELIEF SYSTEM ANYWHERE. PEOPLE IN ANCIENT TIMES BELIEVED THE gods GAVE THEM THOSE MORAL CODES AS A WAY TO WORSHIP AND PLEASE THEM. THERE IS NO ANCIENT CIVILISATION THAT DEVELOPED ITS MORALITY OUTSIDE A RELIGIOUS FRAMEWORK- NONE

anybody arguing against this is simply ignorant.

This is one of the most ignorant posts I've read on Nairaland. Was it religion that made a father take care of his family, or a mother tske care of children? Was it religion that prevented people using other people as protein? Was it religion that made people form friendships and look out for each other?
China is officially an atheist state. Why don't they all kill each other because of no religion?

SIRTee15:
If u dont know the history of religion, I will advise u educate yourself and cure your ignorance. organised religion were well established thousands of years b4 the Abrahamic religion and there were well known moral codes governing those societies b4 God gave Moses the torah.
There is no known moral code that exist outside of a religious framework- none. all morality are shaped by religious belief system- be it ancient or modern

Below are ancient moral codes that existed even before God gave Moses the 10 commandment. All of them governed ancient civilizations and were based off beliefs in gods and attributed to them.


1. Ma’at moral code, c. 3100–300 BCE. Ancient Egypt; attributed to Ma’at, goddess of truth, justice, and cosmic order.

2. The Code of Ur-Nammu, c. 2100–2050 BCE. Sumer, Mesopotamia; attributed to Nanna/Sin, the moon god, patron deity of Ur.

3. Code of Hammurabi (first legal code known to mankind) c. 1754 BCE. Babylon, Mesopotamia; attributed to Shamash, god of justice and the sun, who gave the laws to King Hammurabi.

4. Hittite Laws, c. 1650–1500 BCE. Hittite Empire, Anatolia; attributed to The Storm God, Teshub, and the Hittite divine order

5. The 10 commandment Mosaic Law / Torah traditionally c. 1300–1200 BCE; attributed to Yahweh, who is described as giving the laws to Moses

6. Avesta / Zoroastrian moral law, teachings traditionally c. 1200–600 BCE; texts compiled later Ancient Persia/Iran; attributed to Ahura Mazda, supreme God of truth and wisdom

I REPEAT, THERE IS NO MORAL VALUES DEVELOPED INDEPENDENTLY OF RELIGIOUS BELIEF SYSTEM ANYWHERE. PEOPLE IN ANCIENT TIMES BELIEVED THE gods GAVE THEM THOSE MORAL CODES AS A WAY TO WORSHIP AND PLEASE THEM. THERE IS NO ANCIENT CIVILISATION THAT DEVELOPED ITS MORALITY OUTSIDE A RELIGIOUS FRAMEWORK- NONE

anybody arguing against this is simply ignorant.

You didn't directly answer QuinnQQ's point. He said empathy, social instincts, reasoning and culture are the sources of morality. I agree.

Instead of responding to that, you posted a list of written codes But written codes aren't the same as moral capacity or moral knowledge. Even the Christian Bible says Gentiles without the law have the law "written on their hearts" (Romans 2 :14-15)

The list you provided doesn't prove all morality comes from God or the gods. It only shows what ancient people believed, or were made to believe about the source of their moral codes. You haven't provided evidence that any god actually gave them.

And since you included Yahweh in the same list, by your own standard, that's just another belief too.

So I ask, What evidence do you have that Yahweh actually gave the Torah, apart from the belief that he did.?

QuinQQ:
I sm a Christian but I think this is a rather poor angle from which to attack atheism. Is religion the source of human empathy, evolutionary social instincts, reasoning, and shared cultural agreements??...!

See, you are doing exactly what he said atheists do which makes them hypocrites for he has put away his own belief in Christianity and in religion as the best basis of morality to ask and to ascertain what is the basis of atheists morality.

The focus now is on atheists to show us their foundation of morality belief if at all they have one.

And the answer is SILENCE.

Therefore, in the absence of any valid opposition, religion is winning and atheism has no basis of morality as his threads prove

QuinQQ:
This is one of the most ignorant posts I've read on Nairaland. Was it religion that made a father take care of his family, or a mother tske care of children? Was it religion that prevented people using other people as protein? Was it religion that made people form friendships and look out for each other?
China is officially an atheist state. Why don't they all kill each other because of no religion?

Why do you deceive yourself? Who told you China is an atheist state? Do they not still practice their Taoism and budhisim and their old religious festivals even today?
So because their present dictator king is ruling them with an iron fist and restricting/quashing Christianity is what makes him an atheist? Did China just fall out from the sky? C'mon, don't talk rubbish.

And yes, Law is a religion and from religion hence why it is religion that says a father/mother has a duty to take care of his family, children and that they had no rights to carnivore other humans.

triplechoice:
You didn't directly answer QuinnQQ's point. He said empathy, social instincts, reasoning and culture are the sources of morality. I agree.

Instead of responding to that, you posted a list of written codes But written codes aren't the same as moral capacity or moral knowledge. Even the Christian Bible says Gentiles without the law have the law "written on their hearts" (Romans 2 :14-15)

The list you provided doesn't prove all morality comes from God or the gods. It only shows what ancient people believed, or were made to believe about the source of their moral codes. You haven't provided evidence that any god actually gave them.

And since you included Yahweh in the same list, by your own standard, that's just another belief too.

So I ask, What evidence do you have that Yahweh actually gave the Torah, apart from the belief that he did.?

He did not say that they are the "source of morality" rather he said those reasons explain and dictate why atheists have and acquire the morality they claim.

Also, there was no "were made to believe about the source of their moral codes" in those citations as those societies know and have the sources of their beliefs. So, this is you commuting the fallacy of adding extraneous material to your argument all because you want to counter his own argument.

Neither is he to provide the god who gave them or Yahweh. That is you committing the fallacy of asking him to prove than the case requires all because you really have no valid argument to make.

So, in the end you have not made any valid argument only committing fallacies in the name of trying to argue

QuinQQ:
This is one of the most ignorant posts I've read on Nairaland. Was it religion that made a father take care of his family, or a mother tske care of children? Was it religion that prevented people using other people as protein? Was it religion that made people form friendships and look out for each other?
China is officially an atheist state. Why don't they all kill each other because of no religion?

This will be last post to u because it's obvious u punching far above your level on this matter.
Imagine comparing morality to responsibility. Even a wicked father who is a murderer takes care of their offspring.
Most serial killers have families that they love to death and will never harm. Their families are mostly shocked when a serial killers is arrested and exposed as a murderer. They always say he was a loving father and husband.

China just became atheist less than 60 yrs ago. For thousands of years they have a moral code built within Confucianism moral code which they beleive is divine, and that's what they still use today. Modern day chinese moral framework is built around Confucius religious teaching even if they don't follow the theology.
My friend go.and read and stop embarassing yourself in public.
Note if I don't reply u again, it's because your post was riddled with if ignorance; there's a limit to what I can take of ignorance.

triplechoice:
You didn't directly answer QuinnQQ's point. He said empathy, social instincts, reasoning and culture are the sources of morality. I agree.

Instead of responding to that, you posted a list of written codes But written codes aren't the same as moral capacity or moral knowledge. Even the Christian Bible says Gentiles without the law have the law "written on their hearts" (Romans 2 :14-15)

The list you provided doesn't prove all morality comes from God or the gods. It only shows what ancient people believed, or were made to believe about the source of their moral codes. You haven't provided evidence that any god actually gave them.

And since you included Yahweh in the same list, by your own standard, that's just another belief too.

So I ask, What evidence do you have that Yahweh actually gave the Torah, apart from the belief that he did.?

I'm not here to debate evidence for religion. That's what u guys do all the time. Deflect and refuse to answer question.

Whether Moses and YHWH exist is not the argument here. Jews believe the source of their morality is derived from the 10 commandment- a religious text. Simple.

Atheist will say there's no God. Fine. Then tell us what is the source of your own morality independent of a God.

Why would u disagree if your 23 yr old daughter decides she wants to build a career in adult movie industry and become a 'corn' star or only fan model.

Why would u consider such act immoral.

That'sy question atheist have failed to answer in previous thread and that have started their whataboutism again.

Pls unless u give a direct answer to my simple question I will not deem u a response.
I'm done with argument already. Answer or STAY SILENT AND ALLOW THE SILENCE BECOME LOUDER.

Dtruthspeaker:
Why do you deceive yourself? Who told you China is an atheist state? Do they not still practice their Taoism and budhisim and their old religious festivals even today?
So because their present dictator king is ruling them with an iron fist and restricting/quashing Christianity is what makes him an atheist? Did China just fall out from the sky? C'mon, don't talk rubbish.

And yes, Law is a religion and from religion hence why it is religion that says a father/mother has a duty to take care of his family, children and that they had no rights to carnivore other humans.

SIRTee15:
This will be last post to u because it's obvious u punching far above your level on this matter.
Imagine comparing morality to responsibility. Even a wicked father who is a murderer takes care of their offspring.
Most serial killers have families that they love to death and will never harm. Their families are mostly shocked when a serial killers is arrested and exposed as a murderer. They always say he was a loving father and husband.

China just became atheist less than 60 yrs ago. For thousands of years they have a moral code built within Confucianism moral code which they beleive is divine, and that's what they still use today. Modern day chinese moral framework is built around Confucius religious teaching even if they don't follow the theology.
My friend go.and read and stop embarassing yourself in public.
Note if I don't reply u again, it's because your post was riddled with if ignorance; there's a limit to what I can take of ignorance.

Dtruthspeaker:
See, you are doing exactly what he said atheists do which makes them hypocrites for he has put away his own belief in Christianity and in religion as the best basis of morality to ask and to ascertain what is the basis of atheists morality.

The focus now is on atheists to show us their foundation of morality belief if at all they have one.

And the answer is SILENCE.

Therefore, in the absence of any valid opposition, religion is winning and atheism has no basis of morality as his threads prove

Is it religion that gave you a conscience?
I am tired. You folks should read this below and research more on the natural state of human condition without input of religion.

China is officially an atheist state (not just anti Christianity). You can't be in CCP if you hold any religious beliefs or belong to any religion

QuinQQ:
Is it religion that gave you a conscience?
I am tired. You folks should read this below and research more on the natural state of human condition without input of religion.

China is officially an atheist state (not just anti Christianity). You can't be in CCP if you hold any religious beliefs or belong to any religion

See now you have moved post to "religion that gave you a conscience". Who said that?

Who wants to join CCP? Even here in Nigeria Christians don't join power thieves is it now China's power thieves who have no regard for human rights and Rule of Law?

Please

SIRTee15:
I'm not here to debate evidence for religion. That's what u guys do all the time. Deflect and refuse to answer question.

Whether Moses and YHWH exist is not the argument here. Jews believe the source of their morality is derived from the 10 commandment- a religious text. Simple.

Atheist will say there's no God. Fine. Then tell us what is the source of your own morality independent of a God.

Why would u disagree if your 23 yr old daughter decides she wants to build a career in adult movie industry and become a 'corn' star or only fan model.

Why would u consider such act immoral.

That'sy question atheist have failed to answer in previous thread and that have started their whataboutism again.

Pls unless u give a direct answer to my simple question I will not deem u a response.
I'm done with argument already. Answer or STAY SILENT AND ALLOW THE SILENCE BECOME LOUDER.

You say you're not here to debate evidence for religion . Good. Then admit that your claim, "morality comes from God" , is a statement of faith, not something you can prove.

I'm not an atheist. I'm agnostic/irreligious I don't really use labels. I simply agreed with QuinnQQ that morality comes from empathy, social instincts reasoning, culture and shared human experience. That's the source of my morality. You haven't addressed that. You just repeated that Jews believe their morality comes from the ten commandments.

I don't dispute what Jews believe. I reject the claim that their belief proves God gave it.

My morality is grounded in human well-being , empathy, reason, and social cooperation. Yours is grounded in religious belief. You're at liberty to hold yours. But you can't claim it's the only source and you can't demand I adopt it without evidence. Period.

Dtruthspeaker:
See now you have moved post to "religion that gave you a conscience". Who said that?

Who wants to join CCP? Even here in Nigeria Christians don't join power thieves is it now China's power thieves who have no regard for human rights and Rule of Law?

Please

The topic is "Atheist Source Of Morality".
One can be very moral without input from religion whatsoever. Some also can be very immoral despite religiosity.
If you bring up a child that he should never steal because it is wrong. He won't steal. Adding that God would punish him if he does is icing on the already baked cake!

QuinQQ:
The topic is "Atheist Source Of Morality".
One can be very moral without input from religion whatsoever. Some also can be very immoral despite religiosity.
If you bring up a child that he should never steal because it is wrong. He won't steal. Adding that God would punish him if he does is icing on the already baked cake!

This is still a departure from the topic.

The question is disclose your source of morality as an atheist. Simple

Dtruthspeaker:
This is still a departure from the topic.

The question is disclose your source of morality as an atheist. Simple

SIRTee15:
I'm not here to debate evidence for religion. That's what u guys do all the time. Deflect and refuse to answer question.

Whether Moses and YHWH exist is not the argument here. Jews believe the source of their morality is derived from the 10 commandment- a religious text. Simple.

Atheist will say there's no God. Fine. Then tell us what is the source of your own morality independent of a God.

Why would u disagree if your 23 yr old daughter decides she wants to build a career in adult movie industry and become a 'corn' star or only fan model.

Why would u consider such act immoral.

That'sy question atheist have failed to answer in previous thread and that have started their whataboutism again.

Pls unless u give a direct answer to my simple question I will not deem u a response.
I'm done with argument already. Answer or STAY SILENT AND ALLOW THE SILENCE BECOME LOUDER.

With due respect, you people should stop disgracing Christians by clinging to this rather stu pid argument. There are many other ways you can attack atheists and they'll have no response - example, where did all this come from?
RELIGION IS NOT THE ONLY SOURCE OF MORALITY!!!!
If you raise a child not to steal, he won't steal and never tie it to religion, he won't steal!
Proverbs 22:6 even says exactly that:
"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it"!
Besides humans having inate morality, it can also come from self-interest, fear, etc
I can't believe, of all things, this is what you folks choose to argue!

triplechoice:
You say you're not here to debate evidence for religion . Good. Then admit that your claim, "morality comes from God" , is a statement of faith, not something you can prove.

I'm not an atheist. I'm agnostic/irreligious I don't really use labels. I simply agreed with QuinnQQ that morality comes from empathy, social instincts reasoning, culture and shared human experience. That's the source of my morality. You haven't addressed that. You just repeated that Jews believe their morality comes from the ten commandments.

I don't dispute what Jews believe. I reject the claim that their belief proves God gave it.

My morality is grounded in human well-being , empathy, reason, and social cooperation. Yours is grounded in religious belief. You're at liberty to hold yours. But you can't claim it's the only source and you can't demand I adopt it without evidence. Period.

Don't mind that guy. He annoyingly talks as if he's looking down from some sort of pedestal, yet he doesn't know what he's talking about!

QuinQQ:
I sm a Christian but I think this is a rather poor angle from which to attack atheism. Is religion the source of human empathy, evolutionary social instincts, reasoning, and shared cultural agreements??
Humans are social animals. Compassion and a basic instinct to avoid causing pain are natural traits that help groups survive and cooperate.

Communities create rules snd social contracts —such as laws against theft or harm—because life works better when people agree to respect each other. Personal values also come from culture, upbringing, family, education, history, and the surrounding society, which have evolved long before and alongside organized religion!

morality does not exist in Evolution. All what you said is summarized as morality is only a tool for the propagation of the human race.
According to history humans race has always being divided into groups which each groups trying to out compete others for resources.

Hence morality would only be a means for survival for each group, hence if rape, murder will serve the community then it is right according to Evolution, which means that Evolution do not really exist. Just mere tools for survival.
Atheism has no means to justify morality apart from do what works for you.

QuinQQ:
With due respect, you people should stop disgracing Christians by clinging to this rather stu pid argument. There are many other ways you can attack atheists and they'll have no response - example, where did all this come from?
RELIGION IS NOT THE ONLY SOURCE OF MORALITY!!!!
If you raise a child not to steal, he won't steal and never tie it to religion, he won't steal!
Proverbs 22:6 even says exactly that:
"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it"!
Besides humans having inate morality, it can also come from self-interest, fear, etc
I can't believe, of all things, this is what you folks choose to argue!




Don't mind that guy. He annoyingly talks as if he's looking down from some sort of pedestal, yet he doesn't know what he's talking about!

He certainly doesn't know what he's talking about.

QuinQQ:
With due respect, you people should stop disgracing Christians by clinging to this rather stu pid argument. There are many other ways you can attack atheists and they'll have no response - example, where did all this come from?
RELIGION IS NOT THE ONLY SOURCE OF MORALITY!!!!...

You are the one disgracing yourself

The topic simply says "disclose your source of morality as an atheist". Yet, here you are crying about attacking atheist and screaming "RELIGION IS NOT THE ONLY SOURCE OF MORALITY" when that is not even the topic. See how you people fail?

triplechoice:
You say you're not here to debate evidence for religion . Good. Then admit that your claim, "morality comes from God" , is a statement of faith, not something you can prove.

I'm not an atheist. I'm agnostic/irreligious I don't really use labels. I simply agreed with QuinnQQ that morality comes from empathy, social instincts reasoning, culture and shared human experience. That's the source of my morality. You haven't addressed that. You just repeated that Jews believe their morality comes from the ten commandments.

I don't dispute what Jews believe. I reject the claim that their belief proves God gave it.

My morality is grounded in human well-being , empathy, reason, and social cooperation. Yours is grounded in religious belief. You're at liberty to hold yours. But you can't claim it's the only source and you can't demand I adopt it without evidence. Period.

Good, then use your highlighted PRINCIPLES to determine if below acts are moral or not.

1. If your 16-year-old daughter starts taking contraceptive pills so she can have sex with her boyfriend, would you frown at it? On what grounds would you consider her behaviour immoral?

2. If your 21-year-old son tells you he is gay and wants to marry his partner, will you wish them marital bliss or attend their wedding if invited? If you object to such a union, where is that morality coming from?

3. If your 18-year-old son tells you he is transitioning to become a woman and plans to undergo surgery, on what grounds would you tell him he is wrong?

4. Why would it be wrong if your 25-year-old daughter tells you she does not plan to get married but intends to have children with different men and raise them without a father figure?

Now apply those your principles to determine the morality of the cases above- pls do not go outside because u clearly stated your morality is based on the said objectives- empathy, social instinct, human experience, and culture

So explain to me why u would object to the above if u are living in a society where above cases are perfectly legal and acceptable by the society.

Dtruthspeaker:
See now you have moved post to "religion that gave you a conscience". Who said that?

Who wants to join CCP? Even here in Nigeria Christians don't join power thieves is it now China's power thieves who have no regard for human rights and Rule of Law?

Please

CCP has 102 million members. Anybody who is anybody at all in China is a member of CCP. A country with that number of atheists is an atheist country!

QuinQQ:
CCP has 102 million members. Anybody who is anybody at all in China is a member of CCP. A country with that number of atheists is an atheist country!

I don't care how they obey their king's wishes but every reasonable person knows that the Chinese is a religionist and a ritualist

Dtruthspeaker:
You are the one disgracing yourself

The topic simply says "disclose your source of morality as an atheist". Yet, here you are crying about attacking atheist and screaming "RELIGION IS NOT THE ONLY SOURCE OF MORALITY" when that is not even the topic. See how you people fail?

You obviously respond without first reading.
Again, here's what I posted earlier with attached screenshot. Please try and read it this time, especially the bolded. Also try to read the screenshot. Try to understand them this time!

I am a Christian but I think this is a rather poor angle from which to attack atheism. Is religion the source of human empathy, evolutionary social instincts, reasoning, and shared cultural agreements??
Humans are social animals. Compassion and a basic instinct to avoid causing pain are natural traits that help groups survive and cooperate.
Communities create rules snd social contracts —such as laws against theft or harm—because life works better when people agree to respect each other. Personal values also come from culture, upbringing, family, education, history, and the surrounding society, which have evolved long before and alongside organized religion!

Dtruthspeaker:
And yes, Law is a religion and from religion hence why it is religion that says a father/mother has a duty to take care of his family, children and that they had no rights to carnivore other humans.

People were doing all that before religion was invented.
I honestly can't believe you people are arguing this (especially in this day of AI below!)

Dtruthspeaker:
I don't care how they obey their king's wishes but every reasonable person knows that the Chinese is a religionist and a ritualist

Well, you're entitled to your opinion but NOT to your own facts. See below

QuinQQ:
Well, you're entitled to your opinion but NOT to your own facts. See below

U are becoming annoying. Now let me expose your hypocrisy.

If your daughter bring any of these guys as her future husband, will u approve? The guy is hard-working, runs a good business, treats your daughter like a queen, respects her and also empowers her.

Will u encourage your daughter to marry him?

If the answer is no, on what basis. What is the source of such objection

Now let's see doublespeak in action.

SIRTee15:
U are becoming annoying. Now let me expose your hypocrisy.

If your daughter bring any of these guys as her future husband, will u approve? The guy is hard-working, runs a good business, treats your daughter like a queen, respects her and also empowers her.

Will u encourage your daughter to marry him?

If the answer is no, on what basis. What is the source of such objection

Now let's see doublespeak in action.

I hope you haven't finally lost it. What has this to do with the discussion??

QuinQQ:
CCP has 102 million members. Anybody who is anybody at all in China is a member of CCP. A country with that number of atheists is an atheist country!

China has over 2 Billion people. How can a negligible fraction - 102 million people out of 2 billion decide the identity of the nation?

QuinQQ:
I hope you haven't finally lost it. What has this to do with the discussion??

I think you need to define what you understand by morality. Most of the examples you raised are not moral issues at all. Empathy is not morality. Conscience is not necessarily moral. There are many people who genuinely and sincerely do immoral things simply because they did not know they were wrong. Their consciences never condemned them. The conscience guides only on the basic forms of morality. But morality itself goes far beyond the basicity of the conscience. And, actually, don't start thinking that serial killers and armed robbers were never told or taught while growing up that such things are not good. I find your argument that "if you tell a child that stealing is wrong, he will not steal" very amusing.

That's why you still need to honestly answer the questions Sirtee15 threw you.

QuinQQ:
I hope you haven't finally lost it. What has this to do with the discussion??

Everything!!!! otherwise I will conclude u know nothing about morality. Morality has everything to do with public behaviour, conduct and appearance.

Now answer my question.

If your daughter brings any of these guys as her future husband, will u approve? The guy is hard-working, runs a good business, treats your daughter like a queen, respects her and also empowers her. They both love each other genuinely and its quite obvious.

Will u encourage your daughter to marry him?

If the answer is no, on what basis. What is the source of such objection

Now let's see doublespeak in action.

SIRTee15:
Good, then use your highlighted PRINCIPLES to determine if below acts are moral or not.

1. If your 16-year-old daughter starts taking contraceptive pills so she can have sex with her boyfriend, would you frown at it? On what grounds would you consider her behaviour immoral?

2. If your 21-year-old son tells you he is gay and wants to marry his partner, will you wish them marital bliss or attend their wedding if invited? If you object to such a union, where is that morality coming from?

3. If your 18-year-old son tells you he is transitioning to become a woman and plans to undergo surgery, on what grounds would you tell him he is wrong?

4. Why would it be wrong if your 25-year-old daughter tells you she does not plan to get married but intends to have children with different men and raise them without a father figure?

Now apply those your principles to determine the morality of the cases above- pls do not go outside because u clearly stated your morality is based on the said objectives- empathy, social instinct, human experience, and culture

So explain to me why u would object to the above if u are living in a society where above cases are perfectly legal and acceptable by the society.

I'm not obligated to answer personal hypotheticals about my children. They're irrelevant to the actual question, which is , what is the source of morality?

But look at what your questions assume: that if I don't condemn these things, I've proven your point. That's not true. My morality isn't a checklist of things your God forbids. It's based on empathy, reason, social instincts and human being. I can evaluate each case on those grounds without needing a divine command.

More importantly, your questions are a distraction. You haven't answered the question I asked you: what evidence do you have that Yahweh actually gave the Torah, apart from the belief that he did?

Until you answer that, you're the one dodging. Your position rests on faith, not evidence. That's ok if you admit it. But you can't demand I justify my morality while refusing to justify your claim.