shdemidemi:
The scripture happen to be all of the authority we need. We can discern truth from false by checking similar or preceding examples in scripture. If any action draws no semblance to that which had been recorded, it must be unequivocally censured by true christians.

What do you mean by "scripture," Sir.

And whose interpretation of scripture should we use to check what is scriptural or not?

italo:
What do you mean by "scripture," Sir.

And whose interpretation of scripture should we use to check what is scriptural or not?

The book of the bible from Genesis to Revelation for an holistic view and for learning. More importantly the doctrine and teachings of Apostle Paul to the church.

vooks:
I second that.
Could you briefly explain why if at all believers need the Holy Spirit IN them if the scriptures are all authority we need

Where did scripture tell you that it is all the authority we need?

Do you believe that Christians must hold fast to both oral tradition and written word?

Is scripture the pillar and foundation of truth?

vooks:
I second that.
Could you briefly explain why if at all believers need the Holy Spirit IN them if the scriptures are all authority we need

I believe all true believers of the gospel have the Holy Spirit in them.

I believe the ministry of the Holy Spirit today is to choose our battles for us, comfort us while we learn through these battles, store whatever we learn that is of God in our heart and intercede for us at all times.

shdemidemi:


The book of the bible from Genesis to Revelation for an holistic view and for learning. More importantly the doctrine and teachings of Apostle Paul to the church.

1. You didnt tell us whose interpretation we should use to check what is scriptural or not. Please do.

2. Where (from Genesis to Revelation) is it written that the Bible is all the authority we need?

3. Can more books be added to this Bible? If not, why?

4. Apostle Paul's teachings are more important than that of Jesus?

5. Is the Bible the pillar and foundation of truth, according to Paul?

6. Should we hold fast to only what is written in the Bible, according to Paul?

italo:


Where did scripture tell you that it is all the authority we need?

Do you believe that Christians must hold fast to both oral tradition and written word?

Is scripture the pillar and foundation of truth?

The bible through Paul said this to Timothy and by extension you and I-
2 Tim 3
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

[size=18pt]14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned[/size] and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

Paul never gave Timothy or you or me to add anything to what had been taught regardless of any spirit he might encounter. We have been charged to stay within the teachings and doctrines of scriptures.

italo:


1. You didnt tell us whose interpretation we should use to check what is scriptural or not. Please do.

The bible means one thing, there is no private interpretation to it. If we sincerely study well enough like the bereans and become selfless enough we will all arrive at the same interpretation.

italo:

2. Where (from Genesis to Revelation) is it written that the Bible is all the authority we need?

We have a myriad of such portions by Apostle Paul.

italo:

3. Can more books be added to this Bible? If not, why?

Never. It is complete, inherent as it is.

italo:

4. Apostle Paul's teachings are more important than that of Jesus?

Just as the words of Jesus are not greater than that of the father, the words of the son are not greater than that of the the Spirit. They are equal and from the same source but apply to separate dispensations.

italo:
5. Is the Bible the pillar and foundation of truth, according to Paul?

the church is the pillar of truth because of her link to the word(Christ). Any church destitute of the Word is no more a church of Christ but something else.

italo:
6. Should we hold fast to only what is written in the Bible, according to Paul?

Absolutely.. as long as it is rightly divided.

shdemidemi:


The bible means one thing, there is no private interpretation to it. If we study well enough and become selfless enough we will all arrive at the same interpretation.

Good. I assume you have studied and become selfless enough. So your interpretation is the correct one. Anyone who contradicts you does so because has not studied and become selfless enough, right?

shdemidemi:

We have a myriad of such portions by Apostle Paul.

Yet it is impossible to name where the Bible says "the Bible is all the authority we need?"

shdemidemi:
Never

Why can't more books be added to the Bible? Has the Holy Spirit lost the ability to inspire men to write scripture?

shdemidemi:
Just like the words of Jesus are not greater tan that of the father, the words of the son are not greater tan that of the the Spirit.

You're saying the words of Paul are more important than the words of Jesus. Yes or no?

shdemidemi:
the church is the pillar of truth because of her link to the word(Christ). Any church divulge of the Word is no more a church of Christ but something else.

You agree that the Church is the Pillar and foundation of truth. It means the Church cannot be devoid of the truth. That's why Jesus gave us the Church, he didn't give us the Bible. You're saying Jesus left us without giving us all the authority we need?

So it is a lie that the Bible is all the authority we need.

shdemidemi:
Yes.. as long as it is rightly divided.

St. Paul says no.

2Thess2:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

Your Christianity is different from that of Paul. You must have got yours from satan. Since the Holy Spirit cannot teach Paul one thing, and teach you another.

italo:

Good. I assume you have studied and become selfless enough. So your interpretation is the correct one. Anyone who contradicts you does so because has not studied and become selfless enough, right?

He means if you removed Catholicism shades the Word would illuminate your spirit like you have never seen

Yet it is impossible to name where the Bible says "the Bible is all the authority we need?"

Go figure where it is written ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED

Why can't more books be added to the Bible? Has the Holy Spirit lost the ability to inspire men to write scripture?

Why do we have 39 OT books and not 390?

You're saying the words of Paul are more important than the words of Jesus. Yes or no?

Paul was Inspired by the same Holy Spirit who descended on Jesus. He can't possibly CONTRADICT what Jesus said

You agree that the Church is the Pillar and foundation of truth. It means the Church cannot be devoid of the truth. That's why Jesus gave us the Church, he didn't give us the Bible. You're saying Jesus left us without giving us all the authority we need?

What is the Church? Roman Catholicism?

So it is a lie that the Bible is all the authority we need.

All you need is His Word not empty traditions of men

St. Paul says no.

2Thess2:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

Your Christianity is different from that of Paul. You must have got yours from satan. Since the Holy Spirit cannot teach Paul one thing, and teach you another.

Can you quote ONE TRADITION taught by Paul by word and not by letter and give proof of the same practiced in the first century
You are those who twist his words to your damnation

shdemidemi:


The bible through Paul said this to Timothy and by extension you and I-
2 Tim 3
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

[size=18pt]14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned[/size] and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

Paul never gave Timothy or you or me to add anything to what had been taught regardless of any spirit he might encounter. We have been charged to stay within the teachings and doctrines of scriptures.

Timothy learned things from Paul through oral tradition too.

Phil 4:9 Keep on doing the things that you have learned and received and heard (not read) and seen (not read) in me, and the God of peace will be with you.

So clearly, the Bible is not all the authority we need.

You're a false teacher.

vooks:

Luke 10:18-20 King James Version (KJV)

18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Can we try out verse 19?

Quote ONE ORAL TRADITION Timothy received from Paul. Whatever was omitted on Pauline epistles was unnecessary for doctrine

italo:


Timothy learned things from Paul through oral tradition too.

Phil 4:9 Keep on doing the things that you have learned and received and heard (not read) and seen (not read) in me, and the God of peace will be with you.

So clearly, the Bible is not all the authority we need.

You're a false teacher.

Make my day

sonOfLucifer:

Can we try out verse 19?

Vooks, did you miss this ?

Why should you malign anyone when you claim anyone can start a "Church" and administer it as he is led by the Spirit.

Who are you to say that the Catholic Church and this prophet have a wrong understanding of the spirit?

When did God make you an authority over them?

What then is the solution for you protestants? Continuing in this rubbish?u missed this
Why should you malign anyone when you claim anyone can start a "Church" and administer it as he is led by the Spirit.

Who are you to say that the Catholic Church and this prophet have a wrong understanding of the spirit?

When did God make you an authority over them?

What then is the solution for you protestants? Continuing in this rubbish?

italo:

Good. I assume you have studied and become selfless enough. So your interpretation is the correct one. Anyone who contradicts you does so because has not studied and become selfless enough, right?

Your assumption is wrong. I constantly study scriptures to learn more, because no one can exhaust scripture. If I hear a thing or see a thing that contradict what I think or believe in scripture, I completely debunk what I thought it was. SCRIPTURE REMAINS THE AUTHORITY.

italo:
Yet it is impossible to name where the Bible says "the Bible is all the authority we need?"

I believe what Paul said about the issue is sufficient. Stay within that which you have been taught, any swerve to the left or right, no matter how inconsequential you think it is it becomes an adulteration of God's word.

italo:
Why can't more books be added to the Bible? Has the Holy Spirit lost the ability to inspire men to write scripture?

The Holy Spirit used the Apostles as foundations to the gospel. Such privilege isn't available to us as there is no more foundation to be laid asides that which had already been laid.

italo:
You're saying the words of Paul are more important than the words of Jesus. Yes or no?

No. They are equal.

italo:
You agree that the Church is the Pillar and foundation of truth. It means the Church cannot be devoid of the truth.

The church can well be devoid of the truth. When they add or take out from the WORD, they are no more a church but a group of apostates. What defines a church is the Word(Christ) and not the building or the people.

italo:
That's why Jesus gave us the Church, he didn't give us the Bible..

Jesus did not give us a church, He gave us Himself which is the WORD.

italo:
You're saying Jesus left us without giving us all the authority we need?

He gave us all things through His Spirit that taught us all things that pertains to life.

italo:
So it is a lie that the Bible is all the authority we need.


St. Paul says no.

2Thess2:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

Whose word was Paul referring to? Could it be a word concocted by Timothy? Remember he had told him to say only what he had been taught.

What letter was he referring to?

Moreover, he said the oral words and letters that were written and not the ones you will write to yourselves and for yourselves.

italo:

Your Christianity is different from that of Paul. You must have got yours from satan. Since the Holy Spirit cannot teach Paul one thing, and teach you another.

No, it is the same with Paul because I am following the words of Paul just as Paul followed Christ.

1 Corinthians 11 King James Version (KJV)

11 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

vooks:

He means if you removed Catholicism shades the Word would illuminate your spirit like you have never seen

Go figure where it is written ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED

Why do we have 39 OT books and not 390?


Paul was Inspired by the same Holy Spirit who descended on Jesus. He can't possibly CONTRADICT what Jesus said

What is the Church? Roman Catholicism?

All you need is His Word not empty traditions of men



Can you quote ONE TRADITION taught by Paul by word and not by letter and give proof of the same practiced in the first century
You are those who twist his words to your damnation

If you want to answer my queries, so that we can reason together and see what is true and what is false, you're welcome.

But if you want to engage in comments that are irrelevant to the discussion, so that you can mask the error in your ways and hold on senselessly to them, then let me know so that I can ignore you.

italo:


Timothy learned things from Paul through oral tradition too.

Phil 4:9 Keep on doing the things that you have learned and received and heard (not read) and seen (not read) in me, and the God of peace will be with you.

So clearly, the Bible is not all the authority we need.

You're a false teacher.

Oral tradition here means Timothy was informed about Christ and His body by Paul through words of mouth. What Timothy cannot do is to make up oral traditions of his own to be followed. That will be tantamount to supplanting God's word with something else.

No need for name calling, we can debate without resorting to that.

Quote one ORAL TRADITION Paul taught in the first century that is nowhere recorded in his epistles.
If you have none then I have no time for engaging you

italo:


If you want to answer my queries, so that we can reason together and see what is true and what is false, you're welcome.

But if you want to engage in comments that are irrelevant to the discussion, so that you can mask the error in your ways and hold on senselessly to them, then let me know so that I can ignore you.

shdemidemi:


Your assumption is wrong. I constantly study scriptures to learn more, because no one can exhaust scripture. If I hear a thing or see a thing that contradict what I think or believe in scripture, I completely debunk what I thought it was. SCRIPTURE REMAINS THE AUTHORITY.

Since you haven't studied and become selfless enough, it is a possibility that you are wrong in your interpretation. How can you then be teaching others what you're unsure of? So you teach something as God's truth today, only to find out tomorrow that it was wrong. By so doing, you endanger the souls of others.

Isn't that a foolish thing to do?

shdemidemi:
I believe what Paul said about the issue is sufficient. Stay within that which you have been taught, any swerve to the left or right is an adulteration of God's word.

But we are staying within what we have been taught by oral tradition and by letter, as St. Paul advised. The problem is when false teachers like you tell us to abandon tradition and hold fast to letter alone, in contradiction to St. Paul's words.

shdemidemi:

The Holy Spirit used the Apostles as foundations to the gospel. Such privilege isn't available to us as there is no more foundation to be laid asides that which had already been laid.

So according to you, the Holy Spirit cannot inspire a non-apostle to write scripture. Who then inspired Mark and Luke? The evil spirit?

shdemidemi:
No. They are equal.

But when I asked what you meant by scripture, you said: "More importantly the doctrine and teachings of Apostle Paul to the church."

Which should we take? Are they equal or St. Paul's teachings are more important in scripture than those of Jesus?

shdemidemi:
The church can well be devoid of the truth. When they add or take out from the WORD, they are no more a church but a group of apostates. What defines a church is the Word(Christ) and not the building or the people.

You're contradicting God. God said "The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth." "The gates of hell will not prevail against you."

You are suggesting the opposite. You're a false teacher.

shdemidemi:
Jesus did no give us a church, He gave us Himself which is the WORD.

He gave us all things through His Spirit that taught us all things that pertains to life.

18 And I tell you, you are Peter,[d] and on this rock[e] I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Show me where Jesus gave us the Bible.

You're a false teacher.

shdemidemi:
Whose word was Paul referring to? Could it be a word concocted by Timothy? Remember he had told him to say only what he had been taught.

What letter was he referring to?

Moreover, he said the oral words and letters that were written and not the ones you will write to yourselves and for yourselves.

Bottom line is "word of mouth." The Bible (written letter) is not all the authority we need.

shdemidemi:
No, it is the same with Paul because I am following the words of Paul just as Paul followed Christ.

1 Corinthians 11 King James Version (KJV)

11 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Lies! Paul says "word of mouth," you say 'no word of mouth.'

You're a false teacher.

shdemidemi:


Oral tradition here means Timothy was informed about Christ and His body by Paul through words of mouth. What Timothy cannot do is to make up oral traditions of his own to be followed. That will be tantamount to supplanting God's word with something else.

No need for name calling, we can debate without resorting to that.

You said the Bible is all the authority we need.

That is a lie because Timothy, and by extension, we, need Tradition that isn't written.

And you can't name ANY tradition Paul communicated to Timothy outside what is recorded in the epistles. Question then is, WHEN did we start collating non-epistle TRADITIONS? First,second third century?

The TRADITIONS theory was invented by catholicism to justify doctrines that are completely strange to scriptures

italo:


You said the Bible is all the authority we need.

That is a lie because Timothy, and by extension, we, need Tradition that isn't written.

Haba why are you guys derailing this thread.
I watched that video from start to finish and I couldn't help but imagine the lengths people will go to 'help' God.
The Kanyari guy reminds me of apostle Suleiman. Its all a matter of time though.

vooks:
And you can't name ANY tradition Paul communicated to Timothy outside what is recorded in the epistles. Question then is, WHEN did we start collating non-epistle TRADITIONS? First,second third century?

The TRADITIONS theory was invented by catholicism to justify doctrines that are completely strange to scriptures

Allow me to ignore you.

I want someone I can reason with, not just someone who wants to out-shout another.

Watch the video and stick to the subject of the thread otherwise you are spamming

There is time and place to prop fickle Catholicism and this is not it.
One word. Name a single first century tradition not found in the New Testament

italo:


Allow me to ignore you.

I want someone I can reason with, not just someone who wants to out-shout another.

italo:
Since you haven't studied and become selfless enough, it is a possibility that you are wrong in your interpretation. How can you then be teaching others what you're unsure of? So you teach something as God's truth today, only to find out tomorrow that it was wrong. By so doing, you endanger the souls of others.

There is a base, which is Christ, that can't be wrong.His promises concerning my soul and the souls of christiaians is also certain because God is forever faithful to His word. When I say no one can exhaust scripture it means we keep growing from one level of glory to a better degree of God's glory. Growth is constant, no man can have the perfect understanding of God hence growth in the Word is also constant. However there is always room for broader understanding of God's word.

italo:

But we are staying within what we have been taught by oral tradition and by letter, as St. Paul advised. The problem is when false teachers like you tell us to abandon tradition and hold fast to letter alone, in contradiction to St. Paul's words.So according to you, the Holy Spirit cannot inspire a non-apostle to write scripture. Who then inspired Mark and Luke? The evil spirit?.

What Paul said orally isn't different from that which he says in his letters, it is from the same source. What was written was recorded for us today for our edification, if we needed to hear all that was said orally God wouldn't forget to include it in the bible.

I never said the Holy Spirit cannot inspire anybody. I said there is no need for any more foundation to be laid according to scriptures, since that had been taken care of by the Apostles.

Who is Mark and Luke??

Who is an Apostle?

Don't you think if Epaphroditus, Barnabas, Andronicus and Junais are called Apostles, Mark and Luke will loosely pass to be called that. They were definitely inspired to pen down the record of what they had seen.

italo:

But when I asked what you meant by scripture, you said: "More importantly the doctrine and teachings of Apostle Paul to the church."

Which should we take? Are they equal or St. Paul's teachings are more important in scripture than those of Jesus?.

More importantly Pauline epistles because this is the dispensation of the Holy Spirit and Paul was the minister who penned down the mind of the risen Christ concerning His mystical body/followers.

italo:
You're contradicting God. God said "The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth." "The gates of hell will not prevail against you."

This statement was not upon Peter but upon Simon- THE ONE WHO HEARS. Upon the WORD that Jesus is the son of God, A people were separated. Theses people remained an authority within the confines of the Word and not aside the word.

italo:

You are suggesting the opposite. You're a false teacher.
18 And I tell you, you are Peter,[d] and on this rock[e] I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Which rock? upon Peter?

The same Peter that was told this immediately after-
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

italo:

Show me where Jesus gave us the Bible.

I never said He gave bible. He gave His Word through the Holy Spirit.

italo:

Bottom line is "word of mouth." The Bible (written letter) is not all the authority we need.


Lies! Paul says "word of mouth," you say 'no word of mouth.'

You're a false teacher.

Whose word?

could it be my word, your word or Timothy's word or some other?

vooks:
Watch the video and stick to the subject of the thread otherwise you are spamming
There is time and place to prop fickle Catholicism and this is not it.
One word. Name a single first century tradition not found in the New Testament

You're obviously avoiding something.

Anyway...who are the writers of Mark and Luke?

It was nowhere written in the gospels...but the early Church knew by Tradition and passed it down.

The Bible is not all the authority we need.

italo:


Allow me to ignore you.

I want someone[size=20pt] I can reason with[/size], not just someone who wants to out-shout another.

If this is what you sincerely want to do, do it without retrogressing to insults I beg you.

shdemidemi:


If this is what you sincerely want to do, do it without retrogressing to insults I beg you.

Please show me where I insulted you. If I think you're teaching falsehood, can I not call you "false teacher?"

We know the authors NOT from traditions but from HISTORY. We don't know who was Nero's wife from the epistles but we know from HISTORY. Do you know the difference between tradition and history?

The Bible does not carry ALL available information in the world but it has ALL a true believer needs.

italo:


You're obviously avoiding something.

Anyway...who are the writers of Mark and Luke?

It was nowhere written in the gospels...but the early Church knew by Tradition and passed it down.

The Bible is not all the authority we need.

italo:


Please show me where I insulted you. If I think you're teaching falsehood, can I not call you "false teacher?"

That is quite too early to do, I might also feel the same way about you but I won't let that becloud an objective debate. We can reason together without throwing derogatory remarks at each other or can't we?

vooks:
We know the authors NOT from traditions but from HISTORY. We don't know who was Nero's wife from the epistles but we know from HISTORY. Do you know the difference between tradition and history?
The Bible does not carry ALL available information in the world but it has ALL a true believer needs.

You're even debunking your own claim.

So the Bible is not all the authority we need, because without 'history,' you dont even know if the Bible was written by apostles or devil worshippers.

History, then, has become an authority for you.

Can you show me where history says that Mark and Luke were written by Mark and Luke?

Can you also tell me why you believe the historians are infallible?

*note that I dont agree we know from history, rather tradition. History is researched, tradition is handed down. You didnt research the authorship of those books, it was handed to you. But pls answer the questions above

shdemidemi:


There is a base, which is Christ, that can't be wrong.His promises concerning my soul and the souls of christiaians is also certain because God is forever faithful to His word. When I say no one can exhaust scripture it means we keep growing from one level of glory to a better degree of God's glory. Growth is constant, no man can have the perfect understanding of God hence growth in the Word is also constant. However there is always room for broader understanding of God's word.

Bottom line is that you're unsure of your understanding. You admitted this much by saying you abandon your teaching when you find it to be wrong.

So you shouldn't be teaching your fallible opinions as God's truths...you are toying with souls.

shdemidemi:
What Paul said orally isn't different from that which he says in his letters, it is from the same source. What was written was recorded for us today for our edification, if we needed to hear all that was said orally God wouldn't forget to include it in the bible.

What Paul said was sometimes different from what he wrote. Why would he travel long distances...e.g to Corinth, only to recite the same letter he had sent earlier to them. St. Paul was not stupid.

If we didn't need oral tradition, God would not have said we should hold fast to it in 2Thess2:15. But he did...which means we need it.
I never said the Holy Spirit cannot inspire anybody. I said there is no need for any more foundation to be laid according to scriptures, since that had been taken care of by the Apostles.[/quote]
Then why are you here teaching...when the apostles have taught by word of mouth and letter?

shdemidemi:
Who is Mark and Luke??

Who is an Apostle?

Don't you think if Epaphroditus, Barnabas, Andronicus and Junais are called Apostles, Mark and Luke will loosely pass to be called that. They were definitely inspired to pen down the record of what they had seen.

So is it impossible for the Holy Spirit to raise new apostles to write scripture today?

shdemidemi:
This statement was not upon Peter but upon Simon- THE ONE WHO HEARS. Upon the WORD that Jesus is the son of God, A people were separated. Theses people remained an authority within the confines of the Word and not aside the word.

God said "The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth." "The gates of hell will not prevail against you."

You say the Church can be apostate with falsehood.

You're contradicting God.

shdemidemi:
Which rock? upon Peter?

The same Peter that was told this immediately after-
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

That's besides the point. Jesus gave us the Church. You say he didnt.

Matt16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter,[d] and on this rock[e] I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

shdemidemi:
I never said He gave bible. He gave His Word through the Holy Spirit.

Oh! Jesus didn't give the Bible, yet you say the Bible is all the authority we need. Who then gave us the Bible, when was it given, and when did it become the authority for Christianity?

shdemidemi:
Whose word?

could it be my word, your word or Timothy's word or some other?

Bottom line is that St. Paul says hold fast to word of mouth...you say disregard word of mouth.

Yours is a false teaching.