₦airaland Forum

What is the religion of Abraham?

Ifeann:
I don't even understand what you are trying to suggest with regard to the points I raised.

My point is that isalm is false. Look ponder on this,

For 1400 years , that is 14 centuries, Islam has battled to dominate the world as it is commanded in your Quran. And for 1400 years it has failed. Your Islamic empires and caliphates came and disappeared into the histories.

Christians have been persecuted by Muslims as commanded in your book and has paided the jizyah for centuries yet Christians still out number moslems and surpass Islam in progress and contribution to humanity. The most power nation on earth was founded with christain principles and has led the world in progress with science, art etc.

Again after centuries of persecuting Jews they still managed to create a homeland in the very heart of Islamic nations. They fought a war in 1967 shortly after their creation in 1948, they were attacked by Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Iraq who where supported by Algeria, Kuwait, Libya, Morocco, Pakistan, the PLO, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, tunisa and YET Israel WON in 6 days. CAN'T you see that the God of Israel saw his people victorious. 1.2 billion Muslims yet 20million Jews dominate you in politics, sciencific breakthrough, arts, economics, education, human rights, inventions, social system, military etc.. Why are they so bless even though your book condemns them and calls them pigs.

Ponder on this my friend.

ayinba1:
@lafflaff
I went to a Federal school too, in the North. Prior to that I had minimal contact with that many kids from other tribes and I have not been indoctrinated to believe the worst about people for the fact that they are different; thank God.

I saw the good, bad and ugly of chritians, muslims, pagans, Yoruba, hausa, ibo, ijaw, urhobo, Fulani, jukun, kilba to name a few. I could not say by statistics that one group of people were better, worse or uglier than the other based simply on their hometown or religion. This is the aim (or should be) of federal schools.
Unfortunately for someone who at age 9, 10 or 11 has already been brainwashed into believing the worst about a certain group simply because they are not his/her group, the eyes to see people as people are greatly impaired and diminished. SOme people know it in their hearts but prejudice clouds their reasoning and they speak against what they know to be true.
Yes. I agree with you here,for every religion there will be bad eggs.


To answer your question about the Prophets and Messenger who were Muslim, I have pasted a few verses of the Holy Quran here.
Qur'an 4:163-165
163 Lo! We inspire thee (Muhammad) as We inspired Noah and the prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as we imparted unto David the Psalms;
164 And messengers We have mentioned unto thee before and messengers We have not mentioned unto thee; and Allah spake directly unto Moses;
165 Messengers of good cheer and off warning, in order that mankind might have no argument against Allah after the messengers. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.

Qur'an 6:84-86
84 And We bestowed upon him Isaac and Jacob; each of them We guided; and Noah did We guide aforetime; and of his seed (We guided) David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward the good.
85 And Zachariah and John and Jesus and Elias. Each one (of them) was of the righteous.
86 And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot. Each one of them did We prefer above (Our) creatures,

Qur'an 21:85-88
85 And (mention) Ishmael, and Idris (Enoch), and Dhul-Kifl (Ezekiel). All were of the steadfast.
86 And We brought them in unto Our mercy. Lo! they are among the righteous.
87 And (mention) Dhun Nun (Jonah), when he went off in anger and deemed that We had no power over him, but he cried out in the darkness, saying: There is no God save Thee. Be Thou glorified! I have been a wrong-doer.
88 Then We heard his prayer and saved him from the anguish. Thus We save believers.

Qur'an 7:73
And to (the tribe of) Thamud (We sent) their brother Salih. He said: O my people! Serve Allah. Ye have no other God save Him. A wonder from your Lord hath come unto you. Lo! this is the camel of Allah, a token unto you; so let her feed in Allah's earth, and touch her not with hurt lest painful torment seize you.

Qur'an 26:123-125
123 (The tribe of) Aad denied the messengers (of Allah),
124 When their brother Hud said unto them: Will ye not ward off (evil)?
125 Lo! I am a faithful messenger unto you,

Qur'an 7:85
To the Madyan people We sent Shu'aib one of their own brethren: he said: "O my people! worship Allah; Ye have no other god but Him. Now hath come unto you a clear (sign) from your Lord! Give just measure and weight nor withhold from the people the things that are their due; and do no mischief on the earth after it has been set in order: that will be best for you if ye have faith.

Qur'an 21:107
And We did not send you (O Muhammad) except as a Mercy to the worlds.

http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/nabi.html

Some, not all, of these men of God were mentioned in today's Bible;I added the link so that you can see more there.. This website used Picthall and Yusuf Ali translations

In the Bible we can read how Jehovah God cares for
his prophets. He protects them from being deceived
by their adversaries:
Psalms 105:14-15: “And God did not allow any
human to defraud them, But on their account he
reproved kings, Saying: ‘Do not you men touch
my anointed ones, And to my prophets do
nothing bad.’”
In complete contrast, we find Allah doing the very
opposite. He defrauds the prophets by appointing
evil men and demons to lead them astray.
Surah 6:112: “So have We appointed for every
Prophet an enemy – devils of men and Jinns;
who inspire each other with seductive,
deceptive speech which leads astray.” (H. S.
Aziz)

gatiano:
What is the religion of Abraham?

I never met him, and I suspect if I give you an answer using the bible you would not accept. So you tell

Nobody in world now has met him. You study so much that you know who you can accuse and who do be justified, then you must have read the short stories or history of Abraham.
so what was the religion of Abraham, of Moses and of Jesus? no answer would be ridiculed, you would just share your view, and i mine and others, theirs.

Ifeann:
I never met him, and I suspect if I give you an answer using the bible you would not accept. So you tell

I will like to engage you but on the following conditions

1- Don't try to change any point we agree to discuss
2- Don't abuse those I hold in high esteem
3- Our responds should not be more than 10 lines(because voluminous responds is a way of derailment)
4- Be honest and diciest from lies
5- You can add your own rule
6- If you are not ok with those rules, please don't bother your self

Now let us take it one after the other and sort out the facts

Ifeann:
Can u please explain some things about Islam, I shall put my questions beneath each fact.
**You say without compulsion, your prophet will disagree with you. Why does the quran say ; ...then KILL the polytheists wherever you find them , and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush, but if they repent and perform the prayer and pay religious tax, then leave their way free..quran 9:5, sounds like complusion to me.
And quran 9:29 which says "FIGHT those who do not believe in Allah." more compulsion. Infact there are many more like this but I am sure if u are a Koran reading Muslim you will know. Pls explain
[color=#000099][/color]

If you use these verses to conclude that their is compulsion in Islam, have you read a verse of the Qura'an where it is directly and categorically stated that their is no compulsion in Islam

If your answer is yes, give us the verse and justify it with those ones you are quoting then give us your conclusion

If your answer is no, then I don't think you have an atom of knowledge regarding the book but you read Islamophobia sites

yazach:
I will like to engage you but on the following conditions

1- Don't try to change any point we agree to discuss
2- Don't abuse those I hold in high esteem
3- Our responds should not be more than 10 lines(because voluminous responds is a way of derailment)
4- Be honest and diciest from lies
5- You can add your own rule
6- If you are not ok with those rules, please don't bother your self

Now let us take it one after the other and sort out the facts



If you use these verses to conclude that their is compulsion in Islam, have you read a verse of the Qura'an where it is directly and categorically stated that their is no compulsion in Islam

If your answer is yes, give us the verse and justify it with those ones you are quoting then give us your conclusion

If your answer is no, then I don't think you have an atom of knowledge regarding the book but you read Islamophobia sites

Hello,
Salam alaykum,

I respect all people, I don't lie, I don't practise Al Taqiyya. I am not asking these questions for argument sake. We learn everyday so if I misquote then point it out and I shall investigate its validity.
My only concern or exception is to rule 3. I often quote verses from the Qu'ran to make my point and are often long.

My only request/ rule is that you do not lie, deceive or use Al Taqiyya when you make your points.

In addition, I visit qu'ran.com for verses and try not to depend on "Islamophobia sites" as you put it .

Here is the verse.
2:256
Sahih International
"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing."

Ifeann:
Hello,
Salam alaykum,

I respect all people, I don't lie, I don't practise Al Taqiyya. I am not asking these questions for argument sake. We learn everyday so if I misquote then point it out and I shall investigate its validity.
My only concern or exception is to rule 3. I often quote verses from the Qu'ran to make my point and are often long.

My only request/ rule is that you do not lie, deceive or use Al Taqiyya when you make your points.

In addition, I visit qu'ran.com for verses and try not to depend on "Islamophobia sites" as you put it .

Here is the verse.
2:256
Sahih International
"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing."

But I don't know why you would quote those verses and assume them to mean compulsion in Islam when you know that "Allah did not in anyway allowed his Prophet to force people to embrace Islam: Their is no compulsion in Islam"

yazach:
But I don't know why you would quote those verses and assume them to mean compulsion in Islam when you know that "Allah did not in anyway allowed his Prophet to force people to embrace Islam: Their is no compulsion in Islam"

Are you serious, are you even a Muslim ?? Have you read your qu'ran in 21st century English and not just reciting it in 7th century classical Arabic.
So what am I to do with these contradicting commands to Mohammed from his god.

Qur'an (9:5)"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..." Prayer and charity are among the Five Pillars of Islam, assalat and zakat

Quran 2:193. "And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors."

Quran 8:39. "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do."

Qur'an (9:29)-"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."


Sura 9:5. "When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them."

Bukhari 2:24: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Sahih Muslim (1:33)The Messenger of Allah said:"I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay zakat."

Sahih Muslim (19:4294)-"When you meet your enemies who are polytheists(which includes Christians), invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them ... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"

Bukhari (53:392)-"While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said,"Let us go to the Jews"We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them,"If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle."

Bukhari (60:80)-"The Verse:--'You (true Muslims) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind.'means, the best of peoples for the people, as you bring them with chains on their necks till they embrace Islam."

[quote author=yazach post=29026155][/quote]yazach I am still waiting for your reply as to how qu'ran 2:256 does Not contradict with all the other passages I presented.

You asked, "have you read a verse of the Qura'an where it is directly and categorically stated that their is no compulsion in Islam
If your answer is yes, give us the verse " and I gave it.

Apparently you thought I didn't know the verse because I didn't quote the passage.. Now I quote and you are shocked and you now claim that since the passage is there then your prophet did not compel people to his religion, the I quote some contradicting qu'ran passages and numerous authentic hadiths showing how your prophet disobeyed the command and presented more "revealed" commands asking him to contradict the earlier one and you run away.

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion — the right way is indeed clearly distinct from error. So whoever disbelieves in the devil and believes in Allah, he indeed lays hold on the firmest handle which shall never break. And Allah is Hearing, Knowing. (Holy Quran).

You are yet to answer my questions, You seem to want to cause confusion and mischief. You know nothing of Islam and not just that, of christianity too as well.

Your only claims is to lift from what GOD did not reveal and what Muhammad did not say or write.

Ifeann:
Are you serious, are you even a Muslim ?? Have you read your qu'ran in 21st century English and not just reciting it in 7th century classical Arabic.
So what am I to do with these contradicting commands to Mohammed from his god.

Qur'an (9:5)"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..." Prayer and charity are among the Five Pillars of Islam, assalat and zakat

Quran 2:193. "And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors."

Quran 8:39. "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do."

Qur'an (9:29)-"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."


Sura 9:5. "When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them."

Bukhari 2:24: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Sahih Muslim (1:33)The Messenger of Allah said:"I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay zakat."

Sahih Muslim (19:4294)-"When you meet your enemies who are polytheists(which includes Christians), invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them ... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"

Bukhari (53:392)-"While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said,"Let us go to the Jews"We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them,"If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle."

Bukhari (60:80)-"The Verse:--'You (true Muslims) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind.'means, the best of peoples for the people, as you bring them with chains on their necks till they embrace Islam."

gatiano:
2:256 There is no compulsion in religion — the right way is indeed clearly distinct from error. So whoever disbelieves in the devil and believes in Allah, he indeed lays hold on the firmest handle which shall never break. And Allah is Hearing, Knowing. (Holy Quran).

You are yet to answer my questions, You seem to want to cause confusion and mischief. You know nothing of Islam and not just that, of christianity too as well.

Your only claims is to lift from what GOD did not reveal and what Muhammad did not say or write.

Hello getiano,
I mean no offence but here are several reasons why I don't want to engage you in a chat;
1. You tell lies
2. You are a conspiracy theorist
3. Your Islamic views are a mixture of the doctrines of the nation of Islam mixed with some ideology from the christain word of faith movement.
4. You throw in several red herring and ramble about many unrelated topics all at once.
5. You know few things about Islam and almost nothing about true Christianity. I mean, for sanity sake u think that the black man is allah.

tell me or show me where i lied or made a mistake that i may correct myself and make amends.

when or/and when i make a statement, it is yours as a duty to disappove it with proves, i do not make statements or say without a proof bound in mathematics, sciences or as reported through a reliable source.

my doctrines? no they are not doctrines and are not a mixture of anything but the truth based on facts. I'm proud to be of the Nation of Islam.

Your 4th point is a get away from answering my questions, and when i do make statement unrelated to topics at hand, i only intend to explain a little better. and those that are will to learn and are not willing to cause mischief will pick what they want or simply won't just believe.

How can i believe in nothingness, in winds and a so called spirit(which means air). ALLAH/GOD CAN BE NONE OTHER THAN A MAN. And without a doubt, we know from whence all nations and blood come from (BLACKMAN), And of all the blackmen on earth and everybody else, ALLAH in person of A BLACKMAN IS THE SUPREME. (mathematics).

All that i have said may be to most or all as though that i'm deluded. mine is to make it clear as possible as i can, it is left to people to take or leave it.

My questions still stand since you know so much about Islam and christianity.
What is the religion of Abraham, of Moses, of David, of Jesus and of Muhammad? you never can tell how much i have or will learn from you.

Ifeann:
Hello getiano,
I mean no offence but here are several reasons why I don't want to engage you in a chat;
1. You tell lies
2. You are a conspiracy theorist
3. Your Islamic views are a mixture of the doctrines of the nation of Islam mixed with some ideology from the christain word of faith movement.
4. You throw in several red herring and ramble about many unrelated topics all at once.
5. You know few things about Islam and almost nothing about true Christianity. I mean, for sanity sake u think that the black man is allah.

gatiano:
tell me or show me where i lied or made a mistake that i may correct myself and make amends.

when or/and when i make a statement, it is yours as a duty to disappove it with proves, i do not make statements or say without a proof bound in mathematics, sciences or as reported through a reliable source.

my doctrines? no they are not doctrines and are not a mixture of anything but the truth based on facts. I'm proud to be of the Nation of Islam.

Your 4th point is a get away from answering my questions, and when i do make statement unrelated to topics at hand, i only intend to explain a little better. and those that are will to learn and are not willing to cause mischief will pick what they want or simply won't just believe.

How can i believe in nothingness, in winds and a so called spirit(which means air). ALLAH/GOD CAN BE NONE OTHER THAN A MAN. And without a doubt, we know from whence all nations and blood come from (BLACKMAN), And of all the blackmen on earth and everybody else, ALLAH in person of A BLACKMAN IS THE SUPREME. (mathematics).

All that i have said may be to most or all as though that i'm deluded. mine is to make it clear as possible as i can, it is left to people to take or leave it.

My questions still stand since you know so much about Islam and christianity.
What is the religion of Abraham, of Moses, of David, of Jesus and of Muhammad? you never can tell how much i have or will learn from you.

You just confirmed every reason why I chose not to engage you in a chat.
So you believe in the mothership MR. Proud NOI member.

My advice to you is to call on the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob and by the Grace of our lord Jesus Christ, by his sacrifice on the Cross you will turn to the truth before it is too late.

you can't still answer the questions? so you deviate by whatever means is avaible to you. GOD/ALLAH won't come by some flying horse as it is shown in the bible story book (that orange book), neither does angels have physical wings so that they may be flying from place to place like house flies for that does not make sense and it would be ugly and unpleasant to the eye.
back to the question of the religion of Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus and Muhammad, can you please tell me of their religion?

Ifeann:
You just confirmed every reason why I chose not to engage you in a chat.
So you believe in the mothership MR. Proud NOI member.

My advice to you is to call on the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob and by the Grace of our lord Jesus Christ, by his sacrifice on the Cross you will turn to the truth before it is too late.

Ifeann:
I don't feel comfortable when my beliefs are challenged, especially by atheists, so I know how you feel. However I do an investigation of their points and see if it has any validity.
You say I quote Islam from my own perspective. NO I don't, I quote the words of your quran and haddiths without any additions. You said you are still learning so please learn.
I have asked you to correct me if I quoted wrongly and you haven't.
You say I argue from my perspective or bias, of course I do and you do the same, we all have personal bias, only the truth can change those bias. But my aim not to agrue for argument sake.

You mentioned about killings in Islam, let's do a little comparism;
Christains are forbidden to kill, it is the 6th commandement. Jesus commanded us to turn the other cheek if we are slapped. We should forgive even if we are offended 70 x 7 times in a day by anybody. Jesus stopped the stoning of an adulteress and forgave her.
On the other hand Mohammed commanded Muslims to kill pAgans, apostates, fight the Jews and christains until they say the shahadda or pay the jizyah and they are told to stone adulteress and caught limbs and revenge trespasses.

Jesus, the most perfect person ever on earth gives us a good way of life (and even your Koran says that he was taken into heaven and shall come again while Mohammeds stays buried in mecca)
Another person comes and gives the people an opposite message., how do you want me and other Christians to accept that..

Read this message from the injeel;


Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

In this time of boko haram, is fighting Back or defending yourself against them justified? Yes or no? Let's assume you are a leader, how will you defend yourself and your people oppression such as that of boko haram?

Ifeann:
[s]Are you serious, are you even a Muslim ?? Have you read your qu'ran in 21st century English and not just reciting it in 14th century classical Arabic. [/s]
So what am I to do with these contradicting commands to Mohammed from his god.

Qur'an (9:5)"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..." Prayer and charity are among the Five Pillars of Islam, assalat and zakat

Quran 2:193. "And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors."

Quran 8:39. "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do."

[s]Qur'an (9:29)-"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."


Sura 9:5. "When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them."

Bukhari 2:24: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Sahih Muslim (1:33)The Messenger of Allah said:"I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay zakat."

Sahih Muslim (19:4294)-"When you meet your enemies who are polytheists(which includes Christians), invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them ... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"

Bukhari (53:392)-"While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said,"Let us go to the Jews"We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them,"If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle."

Bukhari (60:80)-"The Verse:--'You (true Muslims) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind.'means, the best of peoples for the people, as you bring them with chains on their necks till they embrace Islam."

[/s]

The upper canceled statements is against our rule (abusive words) while the lower ones are too much(act of derailing the topic and to prevent you from depending on Islamophobia sites which in turns gives you opportunity to use your personal reasoning)

Go back to your last post where you said you had nothing to do with those sites but I can noticed from this post that you lied

Now to the uncanceled once: Why are you referring to those verses alone, I think what I ask of you is to explain the verse where Allah clearly and directly forbid compulsion in Islam. You should be able to compare the two so I will be glad if you merge the verse(There is no compulsion in Islam) with the ones you quoted


Now to your doubt

Ifeann:
I don't feel comfortable when my beliefs are challenged, especially by atheists, so I know how you feel. However I do an investigation of their points and see if it has any validity.
You say I quote Islam from my own perspective. NO I don't, I quote the words of your quran and haddiths without any additions. You said you are still learning so please learn.
I have asked you to correct me if I quoted wrongly and you haven't.
You say I argue from my perspective or bias, of course I do and you do the same, we all have personal bias, only the truth can change those bias. But my aim not to agrue for argument sake.

You mentioned about killings in Islam, let's do a little comparism;
Christains are forbidden to kill, it is the 6th commandement. Jesus commanded us to turn the other cheek if we are slapped. We should forgive even if we are offended 70 x 7 times in a day by anybody. Jesus stopped the stoning of an adulteress and forgave her.
On the other hand Mohammed commanded Muslims to kill pAgans, apostates, fight the Jews and christains until they say the shahadda or pay the jizyah and they are told to stone adulteress and caught limbs and revenge trespasses.

Jesus, the most perfect person ever on earth gives us a good way of life (and even your Koran says that he was taken into heaven and shall come again while Mohammeds stays buried in mecca)
Another person comes and gives the people an opposite message., how do you want me and other Christians to accept that..

Read this message from the injeel;


Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

As a Christian, leader of a country disturbed by boko haram, what will you do? And the way the government has taken up the challenge by fighting them. Are they guilty?

I feel comfortable when my beliefs are challenged. It gives me another perspective, make me ask questions and seek knowledge about what I may not have encountered on my own.


Modified : I saw your comment about lying in Islam, Jesus being the best man on earth etc. I didn't say anything on them not because I agree but because I think you are trying to illustrate and pass a message. I feel discussing your method of illustration rather than the concept of your message will make us jump from one topic to another unnecessarily.

yazach:
[/s]

The upper canceled statements is against our rule (abusive words) while the lower ones are too much(act of derailing the topic and to prevent you from depending on Islamophobia sites which in turns gives you opportunity to use your personal reasoning)

Go back to your last post where you said you had nothing to do with those sites but I can noticed from this post that you lied

Now to the uncanceled once: Why are you referring to those verses alone, I think what I ask of you is to explain the verse where Allah clearly and directly forbid compulsion in Islam. You should be able to compare the two so I will be glad if you merge the verse(There is no compulsion in Islam) with the ones you quoted


Now to your doubt

Please avoid constructing your statement in a way to make non muslim feel uncomfortable. May God guide us right.

ypeace:
As a Christian, leader of a country disturbed by boko haram, what will you do? And the way the government has taken up the challenge by fighting them. Are they guilty?

I feel comfortable when my beliefs are challenged. It gives me another perspective, make me ask questions and seek knowledge about what I may not have encountered on my own.

I see you don't have a problem with the issues I raised about Mohammed's conduct. Look you are far luckier than so many Muslims who don't have the opportunity to be given this information and be invited to the true way of life as commanded by the true God.

I don't understand your first question about the Government and Boko haram. But I will tell you this, if those boys had a christain upbringing they will be in school and NOT carrying out some of these commands in the Quran and hadiths;

Qur'an (9:29)-"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Sura 9:5. "When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them."

Bukhari 2:24: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

You say you fell comfortable when your beliefs are challenged, I say you are not being honest. How can u be comfortable when I give you passages of
1. Stonings of female approved by your prophet therefore instantly sending them to hell after Christ has come to die for our sins and plead our case to God the father when we sin .

2. Contradictions in your qu'ran.

3. Information from your sources as it is recorded Aisha was married to your prophet at six and had sex with her at 9. This is paedophilia not to mention he had several other wives and sex slaves at this point. Christ who died in his 30s never knew a woman talkless of a child 600 years before the arrival of Mohammed

4. That your prophet says all you will do is drink wine, have servants and have sex for eternity with virgins. God is the only one who is to be served in heaven. If wine is bad here it should be bad in paradise and I don't understand why people should be having sex(such an earthly pleasure) in the presence of your god and not worshipping him.
See some passages;

“Serving [the believers] will be immortal youths with jeweled and crystal cups filled with the purest wine which will neither give them headache nor hangover, with fruits and meats of their desire. They will be fair ones with lovely intense eyes like guarded pearls; A reward for the good deeds of their past life.”(56:17-24)

“We have created mates for them and made them virgins, matched in age, for the companions of the right hand.”(56:35-38)

“They will be chaste, restraining their eyes in modesty, never touched by man or Jinn.”(55:56)

“Serving them will be immortal servants. When you see them, they will look like scattered pearls.”(76:19)

5. That your prophet once said 'Allah's three daughters' – al-Lat, al-Uzza, and Manat, each of which had a shrine near Mecca where to be worshipped.
"These are the exalted cranes Whose intercession is to be hoped for." (Surah 53:19-22)
In the time of Moses he would have been stoned to death as a false prophet because The True God can not allow the words of his prophet be compromised.

6. That the bible/injeel which your prophet affirms warns us that the anti Christ will deny Jesus is the Christ and the relationship between the father and the son.
Your Koran does not deny that Jesus is the Christ but it denies the relationship between father and son. Hence its an anti Christ.

If you don't feel uncomfortable with these point (and there are more I left out), then you lie my friend or just wants to remain ignorant of the true facts

Ifeann:
I see you don't have a problem with the issues I raised about Mohammed's conduct. Look you are far luckier than so many Muslims who don't have the opportunity to be given this information and be invited to the true way of life as commanded by the true God.

I don't understand your first question about the Government and Boko haram. But I will tell you this, if those boys had a christain upbringing they will be in school and NOT carrying out some of these commands in the Quran and hadiths;

Qur'an (9:29)-"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Sura 9:5. "When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them."

Bukhari 2:24: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

You say you fell comfortable when your beliefs are challenged, I say you are not being honest. How can u be comfortable when I give you passages of
1. Stonings of female approved by your prophet therefore instantly sending them to hell after Christ has come to die for our sins and plead our case to God the father when we sin .

2. Contradictions in your qu'ran.

3. Information from your sources as it is recorded Aisha was married to your prophet at six and had sex with her at 9. This is paedophilia not to mention he had several other wives and sex slaves at this point. Christ who died in his 30s never knew a woman talkless of a child 600 years before the arrival of Mohammed

4. That your prophet says all you will do is drink wine, have servants and have sex for eternity with virgins. God is the only one who is to be served in heaven. If wine is bad here it should be bad in paradise and I don't understand why people should be having sex(such an earthly pleasure) in the presence of your god and not worshipping him.
See some passages;

“Serving [the believers] will be immortal youths with jeweled and crystal cups filled with the purest wine which will neither give them headache nor hangover, with fruits and meats of their desire. They will be fair ones with lovely intense eyes like guarded pearls; A reward for the good deeds of their past life.”(56:17-24)

“We have created mates for them and made them virgins, matched in age, for the companions of the right hand.”(56:35-38)

“They will be chaste, restraining their eyes in modesty, never touched by man or Jinn.”(55:56)

“Serving them will be immortal servants. When you see them, they will look like scattered pearls.”(76:19)

5. That your prophet once said 'Allah's three daughters' – al-Lat, al-Uzza, and Manat, each of which had a shrine near Mecca where to be worshipped.
"These are the exalted cranes Whose intercession is to be hoped for." (Surah 53:19-22)
In the time of Moses he would have been stoned to death as a false prophet because The True God can not allow the words of his prophet be compromised.

6. That the bible/injeel which your prophet affirms warns us that the anti Christ will deny Jesus is the Christ and the relationship between the father and the son.
Your Koran does not deny that Jesus is the Christ but it denies the relationship between father and son. Hence its an anti Christ.

If you don't feel uncomfortable with these point (and there are more I left out), then you lie my friend or just wants to remain ignorant of the true facts

To be sincere I am not uncomfortable. There is no way I think I can prove that. Yea you raised a whole lots of points. I can't address all for example the issue o slavery.

But try and let's stay on one for now which is killing. My belief is we can kill in Islam as stated in the Qur’an. Under what circumstances, I haven't discussed that yet because I notice that you are trying to mean any form of killing is prohibited. I can't discuss situation in which killing is allowed in Islam if you still hold the view that killing of any form and any book that contains that automatically becomes evil.

That is why I asked. Let's assume boko haram from outside your country is facing your country assuming you are the leader. Will you fight back? If no. Then is Nigeria guilty of fighting back? If no then the constitution of Nigeria automatically supports killing and therefore it's bad right?

malvisguy212:
you are confusing your self, first you say he was the first to submit your next statement say '' Not the first person to submit''. Then abraham who live thousand of years before muhammed did not submit? But he was a muslim.
The hadith say muhammed was in the cave of hira when the truth descend on him. Does this mean all other prophet were living in lies? If other's prophet were abiding in truth and the scripture was sufficient to saved them, what the need of the quran? There is a manipulation going on some where in the quran, satan is battling with the truth.

God told adam not to eat the fruit and adam submit? But the bible say adam disobey God.

Lolz actually when I read what I wrote myself, the first two statement looks further confusing. OK let me rephrase. Out of those who who took an exam Muhammad scored the highest mark and came first. But Adam was the first to take the exam. Hope you now understand the concept. If you understand and don't support it then you can explain to me how it is not so.

ypeace:
To be sincere I am not uncomfortable. There is no way I think I can prove that. Yea you raised a whole lots of points. I can't address all for example the issue o slavery.

But try and let's stay on one for now which is killing. My belief is we can kill in Islam as stated in the Qur’an. Under what circumstances, I haven't discussed that yet because I notice that you are trying to mean any form of killing is prohibited. I can't discuss situation in which killing is allowed in Islam if you still hold the view that killing of any form and any book that contains that automatically becomes evil.

That is why I asked. Let's assume boko haram from outside your country is facing your country assuming you are the leader. Will you fight back? If no. Then is Nigeria guilty of fighting back? If no then the constitution of Nigeria automatically supports killing and therefore it's bad right?

You say, "Yea you raised a whole lots of points"
Yes I did, because Islam has a whole lot of issues that I present to you so that you and any sincere Muslim reading this will get the full picture and see the falsehood in Islam.

Again you admit that you can't address all for example the issue of slavery in Islam. My friend do you see the flaw in your statement. Here you admit Islam permits slavery yet Christianity condemns it. Slavery is a terrible practise that belongs in antiquity. ISIS have revived slavery because of Islam and are currently selling Kurdish, yadizi, and even sunni girls(young and old) in Syria and Iraq

Incase u suddenly develop amnesia and forget that Islam permits it. Let's compare verses from Islam and the bible;

Sahih Muslim 8:29: “IT IS PERMISSIBLE TO HAVE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH A CAPTIVE WOMAN AFTER SHE IS PURIFIED (OF MENSES OR DELIVERY) IN CASE SHE HAS A HUSBAND, HER MARRIAGE IS ABROGATED AFTER SHE BECOMES CAPTIVE.”
Sahih Muslim 8:3432: “Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (may Allah be pleased with him) reported that at the Battle of Hunain Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that:" And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess(as slaves) (verse 4:24)" (i.e., they were lawful for them when their 'Idda period came to an end).”

And then the bible

Galatians 3:28
New American Standard Bible
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

King James Bible
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

You asked, "Let's assume boko haram from outside your country is facing your country assuming you are the leader. Will you fight back? If no. Then is Nigeria guilty of fighting back? If no then the constitution of Nigeria automatically supports killing and therefore it's bad right?"

What does this question have to do with anything, I am not Nigeria's leader, the bokoharam you speak of are angry Muslims following passages in the Qu'ran and please ask me questions based on facts and not analogy or assumptions.
SoRry if I sound harsh but you keep avoiding the issues.

Ifeann:
.

There is a reason why I asked the question which I feel you are not interested in answering. What you resulted to is religion comparism. If I should engage you in that, we will keep jumping from one topic to another endlessly. Atleast if I clear the one I know about Islam, other muslims who have learnt about others and who are more knowledgeable will clear others. If you feel we should leave what we were discussing earlier then fine. I only speak about what I know something about and what I don't know anything about I try to learn about it. I am responsible for my source of knowledge and I have not chosen you because you assume you know much about my beliefs. But, what I have seen is that you don't.

If the discussion is about islamic banking, I would have told you I don't know much about it the way I told you I don't know much about slavery in Islam. But what I know for sure slavery in Islam is not slavery as you have presented it just like killing in Islam is not killing as you had presented it earlier.

Thanks for the hadith and Qur'an verses you have quoted I will take note of them when I learn about slavery in Islam.

Now, should we continue discussing about the one I have knowledge about. The one I don't have knowledge about, I can recommend sources to you if you care. Or do you want us to change to discuss Christianity ie you want to preach to me. Having a goal will shape our discussion. Peace.

Ifeann:
I don't feel comfortable when my beliefs are challenged, especially by atheists, so I know how you feel. However I do an investigation of their points and see if it has any validity.
You say I quote Islam from my own perspective. NO I don't, I quote the words of your quran and haddiths without any additions. You said you are still learning so please learn.
I have asked you to correct me if I quoted wrongly and you haven't.
You say I argue from my perspective or bias, of course I do and you do the same, we all have personal bias, only the truth can change those bias. But my aim not to agrue for argument sake.

You mentioned about killings in Islam, let's do a little comparism;
Christains are forbidden to kill, it is the 6th commandement. Jesus commanded us to turn the other cheek if we are slapped. We should forgive even if we are offended 70 x 7 times in a day by anybody. Jesus stopped the stoning of an adulteress and forgave her.
On the other hand Mohammed commanded Muslims to kill pAgans, apostates, fight the Jews and christains until they say the shahadda or pay the jizyah and they are told to stone adulteress and caught limbs and revenge trespasses.

Jesus, the most perfect person ever on earth gives us a good way of life (and even your Koran says that he was taken into heaven and shall come again while Mohammeds stays buried in mecca)
Another person comes and gives the people an opposite message., how do you want me and other Christians to accept that..

Read this message from the injeel;


Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Wow, what an interesting read,the Op copied some lies from an anti-christain site and post it here,then ran away, he cannot even stay to defend his post. you are an intelligent madam,and you are doing a very fine job, May God bless and honour you, Religion section needs more people like you at this times in Nairaland. there was a time when myself and some other guys do engage some muslims in their section before the nairaland tsunami and before the islam section becomes a sharia house. then, we try to show them the falsehood in islam and to educate them on the lies they have been told about christainity.
May God help us all.

Mintayo:
Wow, what an interesting read,the Op copied some lies from an anti-christain site and post it here,then ran away, he cannot even stay to defend his post. you are an intelligent madam,and you are doing a very fine job, May God bless and honour you, Religion section needs more people like you at this times in Nairaland. there was a time when myself and some other guys do engage some muslims in their section before the nairaland tsunami and before the islam section becomes a sharia house. then, we try to show them the falsehood in islam and to educate them on the lies they have been told about christainity.
May God help us all.

Thank you for the comment. May God bless us all.
We must not give up on Muslims as Christ did not give up on us.
I have spent hours chatting with Muslims, my good friends are Muslims so I know how trapped they are and it is not their fault.
So don't give up on them, spread the Gospel boldly.

Have a nice weekend.

Ifeann:
I still don't understand what this has to do with our topic on Islam.
If Islam was not on earth you and I won't be discussing boko haram.

Yes I am against murder and won't commit it. I am against owning a gun or any thing that involves taking precious human life.

Notwithstanding, I support our army for putting their life at risk to protect the north from itself but would prefer if the solution is NOT murder as America has done with the Afghan and Pakistani Taliban, and the Israeli army with the Palestinians. Am I not clear enough. Murder and killing only begets more murder and killing. This is my stance on the issue. What more do you want from me my friend.

You don't support killing of any form but you support our army.

Before the first war in Islam, Muslim were prosecuted, the reason why they can't retaliate is because as at that time, there is no single verse of the Qur'an supporting defending oneself militarily. They did not even run away from prosecution until God commanded them....... You may not believe that anyway. While at Medina, they lived with non muslims who didn't wage any war to them. But the meccans keep coming. In the light of this, God allowed them to defend, retaliate etc using military means. Some of which are the verses you quoted earlier. And even though we use military, we have guidelines eg, we must not destroy properties or fight those who we know can't harm us in battle. And what of when the opponent eg boko haram surrender, we agree on treaties and end the war.

In no situation did muhammad fought those whom he lived with peace with. Since we interpret the Qur’an in the boundary of what muhammed did, in no condition are we allowed to fight those we made treaties of peace with except they break it.

If killing in any form is bad. Then suggest a practicable solution to the Nigerian government when next they get the news that boko haram wants to attack a city.

Not to go far, there was a terrorist group eradicated during some of the past military rule in Nigeria. So in that light, give us eg of where your suggestions as a christain as worked in the past in eradicating terror.

The reason why I asked those questions the way I did is that, Atleast if defending oneself using the military as supported by islam is bad, that means your belief presents a better option which I will like you to state.


There are other reasons one can kill as stated in the Qur’an, we will discuss that after we finish with the issue of defense. Peace

ypeace:
You don't support killing of any form but you support our army.

Before the first war in Islam, Muslim were prosecuted, the reason why they can't retaliate is because as at that time, there is no single verse of the Qur'an supporting defending oneself militarily. They did not even run away from prosecution until God commanded them....... You may not believe that anyway. While at Medina, they lived with non muslims who didn't wage any war to them. But the meccans keep coming. In the light of this, God allowed them to defend, retaliate etc using military means. Some of which are the verses you quoted earlier. And even though we use military, we have guidelines eg, we must not destroy properties or fight those who we know can't harm us in battle. And what of when the opponent eg boko haram surrender, we agree on treaties and end the war.

In no situation did muhammad fought those whom he lived with peace with. Since we interpret the Qur’an in the boundary of what muhammed did, in no condition are we allowed to fight those we made treaties of peace with except they break it.

If killing in any form is bad. Then suggest a practicable solution to the Nigerian government when next they get the news that boko haram wants to attack a city.

Not to go far, there was a terrorist group eradicated during some of the past military rule in Nigeria. So in that light, give us eg of where your suggestions as a christain as worked in the past in eradicating terror.

The reason why I asked those questions the way I did is that, Atleast if defending oneself using the military as supported by islam is bad, that means your belief presents a better option which I will like you to state.


There are other reasons one can kill as stated in the Qur’an, we will discuss that after we finish with the issue of defense. Peace

Stop comparing Nigeria's army killing boko haram to Mohammed's fightings in mecca and caravan raids in Medina . They are not the same thing and besides its because of Mohammed that the nigerian army is killing young Muslims in the first place..

I will not say anything about Mohammed's issues in mecca that led to his flight to Medina because I am yet to study it in details. I like to be knowledgeable in a topic before I speak on it. I haven't studied the hadiths on the matter.

What I will do is compare Mohammed's course of action with what we can find about Christ in the bible;
You admit Mohammed defended himslef and commanded his people to fight ok here is what Christ did:

1. Christ said If you are slapped in one cheek turn over your other cheek.(my Christians find this one difficult to do)

2.When the soilders came to get Christ while he was with some of his disciples, to lead him to the Pharisees, herod and pontius pilate for judgement of blasphemy and to be crucified. Peter his discipline took out a knife and cut a soldiers ear , but Christ said no, he who lives by the sword dies by the sword. And he picked up and restored the soldiers ear.

Now this is beautiful. I wish to live like this and not revenge and slaughter and lay ambush and raid caravans as Mohammed chose to do. If you want verses I will give it to you...in bulk.

What's our next topic.

ypeace:
There is a reason why I asked the question which I feel you are not interested in answering. What you resulted to is religion comparism. If I should engage you in that, we will keep jumping from one topic to another endlessly. Atleast if I clear the one I know about Islam, other muslims who have learnt about others and who are more knowledgeable will clear others. If you feel we should leave what we were discussing earlier then fine. I only speak about what I know something about and what I don't know anything about I try to learn about it. I am responsible for my source of knowledge and I have not chosen you because you assume you know much about my beliefs. But, what I have seen is that you don't.

If the discussion is about islamic banking, I would have told you I don't know much about it the way I told you I don't know much about slavery in Islam. But what I know for sure slavery in Islam is not slavery as you have presented it just like killing in Islam is not killing as you had presented it earlier.

Thanks for the hadith and Qur'an verses you have quoted I will take note of them when I learn about slavery in Islam.

Now, should we continue discussing about the one I have knowledge about. The one I don't have knowledge about, I can recommend sources to you if you care. Or do you want us to change to discuss Christianity ie you want to preach to me. Having a goal will shape our discussion. Peace.

You said ,"I am responsible for my source of knowledge and I have not chosen you because you assume you know much about my beliefs. But, what I have seen is that you don't. "
my brother or sister in humanity I don't knw anything about what you believe or your beliefs but I do know what your hadiths and qu'ran tells Muslims to believe, if you chose NOT to believe it that's your cup of tea. The passages do not mince words. The commands are reasonably clear and I bring them to you as honestly as I can.

You say "But what I know for sure slavery in Islam is not slavery as you have presented it just like killing in Islam is not killing as you had presented it earlier."

Can't you see the flaw in this statement. You are of African/black decent. Do you not know that the westerners and Arabs traded your race as slaves and the church spoke against slavery declaring it immortal. If we depended on Islam you would have been a slave today. And yet u tell me slavery in Islam is not as I describe. Are u serious ?? After I quoted so much verses on this including the hadith that approves breeding of slaves.

Why am I wasting this information on you. I just hope that all the truths I have put here touches the heart of at least one Muslim destined to be saved so they can leave the falsehood of Islam.

You said," Or do you want us to change to discuss Christianity ie you want to preach to me. Having a goal will shape our discussion. Peace."

No my Friend l don't even know how to preach, call on the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, call God to guide you to his truth. Tell him to give u a dream or coincidences. It works. However if you have questions I have told you what to do in a previous chat.
I am free to answer you.

Ifeann:
Stop comparing Nigeria's army killing boko haram to Mohammed's fightings in mecca and caravan raids in Medina . They are not the same thing and besides its because of Mohammed that the nigerian army is killing young Muslims in the first place..

I will not say anything about Mohammed's issues in mecca that led to his flight to Medina because I am yet to study it in details. I like to be knowledgeable in a topic before I speak on it. I haven't studied the hadiths on the matter.

What I will do is compare Mohammed's course of action with what we can find about Christ in the bible;
You admit Mohammed defended himslef and commanded his people to fight ok here is what Christ did:

1. Christ said If you are slapped in one cheek turn over your other cheek.(my Christians find this one difficult to do)

2.When the soilders came to get Christ while he was with some of his disciples, to lead him to the Pharisees, herod and pontius pilate for judgement of blasphemy and to be crucified. Peter his discipline took out a knife and cut a soldiers ear , but Christ said no, he who lives by the sword dies by the sword. And he picked up and restored the soldiers ear.

Now this is beautiful. I wish to live like this and not revenge and slaughter and lay ambush and raid caravans as Mohammed chose to do. If you want verses I will give it to you...in bulk.

What's our next topic.

You said you haven't study on Muhammad's plight in mecca before he flees. You only study the end and concluded. Try and study all so that you don't misjudge out of context of the matter.

If you study the Qur’an well, you will know that if you are wronged by another human, the best option is to forgive and forget.

Jesus was not a leader of a country, terror does not come in form of slapping alone. People muhammad (saw) lead are in danger of being prosecuted because of what they believe. The reason why I am using the boko haram issue is simply because we both have roughly the same amount of knowledge about it. So we both agree it's a problem we are battling with. Since you belief don't support using military means to defend yourself, what is the solution your belief posses to this kind of situation?

Ifeann:
You said ,"I am responsible for my source of knowledge and I have not chosen you because you assume you know much about my beliefs. But, what I have seen is that you don't. "
my brother or sister in humanity I don't knw anything about what you believe or your beliefs but I do know what your hadiths and qu'ran tells Muslims to believe, if you chose NOT to believe it that's your cup of tea. The passages do not mince words. The commands are reasonably clear and I bring them to you as honestly as I can.

You say "But what I know for sure slavery in Islam is not slavery as you have presented it just like killing in Islam is not killing as you had presented it earlier."

Can't you see the flaw in this statement. You are of African/black decent. Do you not know that the westerners and Arabs traded your race as slaves and the church spoke against slavery declaring it immortal. If we depended on Islam you would have been a slave today. And yet u tell me slavery in Islam is not as I describe. Are u serious ?? After I quoted so much verses on this including the hadith that approves breeding of slaves.

Why am I wasting this information on you. I just hope that all the truths I have put here touches the heart of at least one Muslim destined to be saved so they can leave the falsehood of Islam.

You said," Or do you want us to change to discuss Christianity ie you want to preach to me. Having a goal will shape our discussion. Peace."

No my Friend l don't even know how to preach, call on the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, call God to guide you to his truth. Tell him to give u a dream or coincidences. It works. However if you have questions I have told you what to do in a previous chat.
I am free to answer you.

Your first paragraph, you dont know what I believed. What you are trying to do is you want me to believe what you believed about the quran and hadith , so that when that happened we will both agree the Qur’an and hadith are bad.

But the issue is in the first place, when some verses of the Qur'an were revealed, the Companions of the prophet asked questions because this some look harsh, some have more than a meaning. Islam is about the response of muhammed to these verses not your response to them.

Taking that into consideration the conditions in which these verses can be applied is different. You can't apply verses which tells you what to do when a child is born to a situation where someone has died. In the same way you can't apply verses which was revealed for the purpose of muhammed defending his life, the life of his followers and their properties when they were being prosecuted to verses that told them what to do when they were living without prosecution.

Where, when and how we use the Qur’an is part of Islam which I think you are not taking into consideration to know what islam is. Qur’an contains ayats, ayats does not necessarily mean verse, it also mean signs, symbols etc. Actions, saying and interpretation of the prophet is islam.

By the time you use the action of the prophet (hadith) during the time of war to mean his actions during the time of peace then you are saying something entirely from what I understand as islam.

Ifeann

Slavery in Islam is a way to treat prisoners of war. If an Arab does something, it does not necessarily mean islam support it. Muslims don't keep people in prison neither do they leave their opponents in war who are weak to die there. They share these people among themselves to cater for. These people do not posses the same right in that they can't inherit their owner's property etc. What if they commit a crime, they are not subjected to the same punishment under islamic law.

They were referred to as slaves not because they got captured for the purpose the westerners and some Arab have in mind but because they don't have equal right as normal citizens.

Muslims are slaves to Allah not because they were treated as Western slaves to western masters but because they submit totally to the will of God. I think when we address an issue let's address it as a whole.

Ifeann

We don't study the Qur’an and hadith neglecting the Situation or what causes the situation in Islam.

Eg if one person has killed another. The situation is killing has occurred. What happened prior to killing is very very important in knowing the stance of Islam on the situation.

Half knowledge can lead astray. Muhammad though you don't believe in him warned against it ie do only what is clear to you and avoid as much as possible what is not clear. To the best of my knowledge verses of the Qur'an and hadith about war is what you know, you don't know how they were applied in Islam.

I still hope I have not digressed from the topic which is killing. OK you don't accept that Muhammad's situation is the same as part of boko haram even though you have not studied all about it. OK for the sake of argument and for the sake of gaining something new from you let's look at this scenario

Nigeria is a christain country, muslims are attacking Nigeria from another country and they are hell bent on wiping the country out because of your belief in Christ. In the boundary of your belief, suggest the solution to your country leader.

You keep bringing if you were slapped on one side of the cheek turn the other side. Now apply this to this scenario if you believe it appears to all form of terror and if you believe it doesn't apply to all form of terror I will like you to state other standard to which you probably judge islam which I don't know about.

Again I asked this question because to me, with some backing from the quran I will suggest to the leader that we should repel this terrorist from other countries using military. But because you have a higher standard to which you say this is barbaric, tell state your own standard by which you will solve the problem.



God knows best and may he guide us right