₦airaland Forum

davien:
herald9 if nothing can be said about the belief in the "creator" that you believe to have started the universe,nor can it be discerned from natural processes...then what is the difference between it being non-existent?
....or is it the belief that makes it existent?

herald9:
The basis for Deism stemmed from the success of sir Isaac Newton in explaining
terrestrial mechanics which led to the development of the idea that nature and the universe could be "thought of" as a great machine, operating according to fixed laws.The idea of the world as a machine immediately
suggested the idea of design.And design doesn't just happen... It requires a designer.

So that's how we came about the idea of a Creator, which only varies with that of a theist because we believe the Creator doesn't interfere in the mechanics of the universe...

From further studying, I've come to discover the shortcomings of Deism, Cause I couldn't see why a God would create a universe he can't participate in...

Or did he create the universe to watch it as fish in the fishbowl?

And since I cannot come in terms with the explanation from Atheism and the beliefs of the Theist....I would love to quote Blaize Pascal who posited that
there is more to be gained from wagering on
the existence of God than from atheism, and
that a rational person should live as though
God exists, even though the truth of the
matter cannot actually be known.

cc: Goosebaba

herald9:
The basis for Deism stemmed from the success of sir Isaac Newton in explaining
terrestrial mechanics which led to the development of the idea that nature and the universe could be thought of as a great machine, operating according to fixed laws.The idea of the world as a machine immediately
suggested the idea of design.And design doesn't just happen... It requires a designer.

So that's how we came about the idea of a Creator, which only varies with that of a theist because we believe the Creator doesn't interfere in the mechanics of the universe...
From further studying, I've come to discover the shortcomings of Deism, Cause I couldn't see why a God would create a universe he can't participate in...Or did he create the universe to watch it as fish in the fishbowl?

And since I cannot come in terms with the explanation from Atheism and the beliefs of the Theist....I would love to quote Blaize Pascal who posited that
there is more to be gained from wagering on
the existence of God than from atheism, and
that a rational person should live as though
God exists, even though the truth of the
matter cannot actually be known.

cc: Goosebaba

GooseBaba:
I see why you keep running around quoting european authors and their perspective on deism. That's why you use the word intelligent being " and now you use the fish in a fishbowl argument from a theistic perspective.

Who brought all these concepts to us?....Isn't it the European folks?
As far as I'm tapping from the source, that's makes it 100% legit...just like Christians quoting the Bible.
I don't know why you still having problem with that adjective 'intelligent' ...If I see a nice sculpture and call it beautiful... is it a bad thing?

It seems to me that you still hold a theistic god concepts while claiming to be a deist. That's why your argument against evolution theory is soaked in theistic beliefs without biblical quotation. Why do you feel the need to defend god/creator..? what is there to gain for wagering on the existence of God...?

My ancestoral teachings tells me that man's efforts to know God is to understand the cosmos and make peace. This is from an african deistic perspective..

herald9:
Who brought all these concepts to us?....Isn't it the European folks?
As far as I'm tapping from the source, that's makes it 100% legit...just like Christians quoting the Bible.
I don't know why you still having problem with that adjective 'intelligent' ...If I see a nice sculpture and call it beautiful... is it a bad thing?


Oh really?
If I was still holding on to theism...I wouldn't even try to reason with you on rational grounds... I would've been spamming this thread with Bible portions and quotations... So you can now spot the difference yourself.
I was only trying to rebuff that theory cause it doesn't make sense to me...Since you find Bible's version of creation story to be a fallacy...You can't expect people to swallow your own scientific tales hook,line and sinker...And arguing with doesn't mean I'm still holding on to theism.

What is to be gained? A lot can be gained my guy...If you were walking down the road and then sight a beautiful building and someone's tells you there's no owner,that the blocks collided and formed that beautiful edifice ...Would you accept it just like that?Wouldn't you find it amusing?



My own efforts to know God is to understand why we are here...
I don't want to believe that life is all about predecessors and successors.

davien:
It's a great big equivocation fallacy....the fact that something can be thought of as another does not magically turn it into what it is thought of..
The fact that an eye is reminiscent of a camera does not make the eye a camera....they are two separate entities and until one can provide a case as to how the universe ought to be "undesigned" they have no case... an example is you should know what "right" is before calling things "left"..

I know the gist of deism...just answer the question....how is a "creator" deduced if one can't differentiate it ever being there to begin with if no trace can be found of it's existence and it can't be separated from natural processes?

'His' works testifies of his existence

Just imagine you were cleaning your room...you now picked a moth-eaten book with the back gone so that you can't see the author's name... Does it mean the author doesn't/didn't exist?

True,although i see why it is mostly preferred among academics
Many rich ideas stem from deism...for instance...
What would seem to us as a deistic entity might in fact have a purpose for the universe...albeit not for our existence...but the creation of living entities like us may have been an inescapable by-product of the universe creation'...
And for all we know a deistic entity might in fact be using the universe for study of it's own environment...not by interaction of the universe but through observation...
The problem is that all those examples of a deistic entity have as much the same evidence,0...

Pascal's wager is about theism not deism(although it expresses it a bit remotely) and so it is not applicable to defend your deism nor is it true even of itself because belief is for one not a choice...you genuinely have to be convinced and again you stand to lose alot of things in theism best summarized under my post here https://www.nairaland.com/1930863/letter-atheists-pics#26819243
and even still deism has a large score who don't subscribe to a "mandatory belief" but still hold the view plausible...

GooseBaba:
That's where you're wrong. European did not bring us this concepts. We already had them. You're clearly a product of colonization. Smh... Are you telling me that atheism, agnostics and deism were all created by european... Are you saying that they were no skeptics in pre colonial africa/nigeria... Your case is worse than I thought..

You mean while you were still worshipping Ifa, Sango, Oduduwa, etc you knew about atheism and Deism... Hmmm for this blatant lie...you deserved to be crucified.

Please go study the history of your country and stop displaying 9:29pm ignorance...
The whitemen are the source of our enlightenment... Give credits to whom credit is due...without them,we'd still be licking asses of the gods.

Life could be about predecessors and successors that's why we constantly reproduce.. Ask a man who does not know his history he gives credit to others for knowledge his predecessor have/had..

Evolutionary theory is not an absolute truth, it could change tomorrow if new discoveries are found.. the only people loosing sleep over this aspect of science are theist who thinks they already have the absolute truth.. Check ya self...

herald9:
You mean while you were still worshipping Ifa, Sango, Oduduwa, etc you knew about atheism and Deism... Hmmm for this blatant lie...you deserved to be crucified.

Please go study the history of your country and stop displaying 9:29pm ignorance...
The whitemen are the source of our enlightenment... Give credits to whom credit is due...without them,we'd still be licking asses of the gods.




You mean we've no other purpose apart that of reproduction?


…

herald9:
I know I know... The eye is used to explain how a camera works...So equating the universe and nature to some machine guided by a fixed law is to help understand how it works too...
From there, an element of design was discovered inwhich you people are trying to push to the back.

Since you've brought up this camera issue...I want to ask...If the eye could cause so much inspiration,that an idea came forth ,which later gave birth to a design(camera)... Do you still think the eye is just a minor organ which came to be by chance?

'His' works testifies of his existence

Just imagine you were cleaning your room...you now picked a moth-eaten book with the back gone so that you can't see the author's name... Does it mean the author doesn't/didn't exist?

…


I'll check your thread.

herald9:
@Goosebaba...You're plowing out of line...our focus was on the inventors of Deism...

I told you that the concept of Deism originated from the west...so I had every right to quote any western author to support my assertion... but you tried to counter me by saying the belief was still there even before the invasion of Europe...



So I don't really know how you arrived at that epistle you wrote there... it's very incoherent and off topic ...

Now to your question on how the Europeans enlightened Africa... It's only an ingrate that will refuse to acknowledge the source of his success.

-The Europeans espoused the use of reason and science as a universal method for obtaining knowledge and solving human problems.

-Their enlightenment freed we Africans from the darkness of ignorance, the burden of false/barbaric beliefs, and the destructive influence of prejudices and superstition.

-They brought about the believe in liberty,equality,secular society, democracy and in the potential of education, science and technology which in turn improved our condition - reducing poverty, misery and diseases.

So the Western world played a big role in the transformation of Africa... No amount of arguments can override that...So again, give credit to whom credit is due.
You're a big beneficiary of this enlightenment,if not,you wouldn't have been punching that keyboard to write that... You'd have probably been a hut,casting cowries to decide who's next to be sacrificed to appease angry gods.

herald9:
@Goosebaba...You're plowing out of line...our focus was on the inventors of Deism...

I told you that the concept of Deism originated from the west...so I had every right to quote any western author to support my assertion... but you tried to counter me by saying the belief was still there even before the invasion of Europe...



So I don't really know how you arrived at that epistle you wrote there... it's very incoherent and off topic ...

Now to your question on how the Europeans enlightened Africa... It's only an ingrate that will refuse to acknowledge the source of his success.

-The Europeans espoused the use of reason and science as a universal method for obtaining knowledge and solving human problems.

-Their enlightenment freed we Africans from the darkness of ignorance, the burden of false/barbaric beliefs, and the destructive influence of prejudices and superstition.

-They brought about the believe in liberty,equality,secular society, democracy and in the potential of education, science and technology which in turn improved our condition - reducing poverty, misery and diseases.

So the Western world played a big role in the transformation of Africa... No amount of arguments can override that...So again, give credit to whom credit is due.
You're a big beneficiary of this enlightenment,if not,you wouldn't have been punching that keyboard to write that... You'd have probably been a hut,casting cowries to decide who's next to be sacrificed to appease angry gods.

pazienza:
Choi! See mental slavery from a supposedly educated African.Rosikke come and see o!

herald9:
I only pointed out their shortcomings cause according to you...They were well-learned to a point whereby they started venturing into philosophical concepts like Deism and atheism.

Priding yourself in what you didn't achieve, isn't it stealing? You clearly stated in your previous posts that we were mimicking them...So if you were mimicking them,is it not because they were influencing you?

It's people like you that'll copy and paste things from the web without crediting the source

Slavery came to be in the first place cause we Africans were power drunk...we wanted to occupy more lands and build empires upon empires.
When villages were raided,the only way to get rid of these people in order for them not to regroup and launch a counter-attack was to sell them into slavery...From there,the Europeans took advantage of it and slave trade boomed.
If our ancestors were so wise like you try to paint them,they would've learned to be contented with what they had instead of trying to push boundaries.

That's why I said the Europeans are the ones that refined our way of thinking...

You're right that they were building infrastructures to move out our natural resources but in the process...they left a legacy behind... only if you'll learn to appreciate.

NB you can't bring in light to were there was already light... If Africans were so enlightenment before the pre-colonial era...why were we called a dark continent?

If I worship an intelligent being... you make reference to an intelligent atom...that puts us on the same ground... till you can proof your own version beyond reasonable doubts...

cc: Goosebaba

herald9:
Don't make me sound like a tradition hater. in fact I love them. it's the culture and tradition that makes us unique and helps us stand out as a people among thousands of other people.

But refusing to acknowledge the role played by the Europeans to bring us this far is the bone of contention.

Our traditional system was well coordinated,no doubt,guided by mysticism and superstitions. I only tried to point out that it's the European that brought about a different view towards life.

Since you said we were so advanced in our thoughts before the colonial era,what tangible invention did we make?
Even this post-colonial era,look at Nigeria as of today and compare them to South Africa who are made up of both the blacks and the whites. You can see how advanced they are both in technology and other areas of human services.
But are we not still rocking in corruption and other heinous acts? Are we not still divided along religious lines and ethnicity?
What do you think would've become of us if we were not even colonized?

Please stop being blinded by traditional sentiments, I'm sure you're just arguing for arguing sake. If they give you as a choice, you wouldn't want to go back to that period again.

I know you're trying to rebuff the white-supremacy I'm trying to paint. As much as I would love to fight along with you, but having come to see how advanced they're in their dealings and the awe-inspiring technology they keep dishing out to us...I rather sit on the fence and watch you go-a-bungee-jump.

And stop taunting me with all this theist bullshiiit... Since you became an atheist, what have you achieved?
eh? Mr Goosebaba?

GooseBaba:
Yawns... Same inferiority rubbish...

When you follow how can you lead...

As a deist i have to ask, since you've been a theist what have you achieved..

herald9:
When you don't follow how would you learn...

You didn't answer mine,why should you expect me to answer yours?

herald9:
Unarguably true.
But do you also doubt the existence of a Creator?
That's the reason I can't still come in terms with atheist.
As a deist,I don't believe in the gods invented by man...But I believe in a Creator who doesn't interfere in the activities of it's creation.

One question I can't always answer is why someone will build a house and abandon it. Why Did he build it in the first place when he had no intention of using it...

sonmvayina:
you have forgotten that parable about a famer who has a vineyard and lent it out to tenants....he is coming soon for us to give account of our stewardship...are you ready?

GooseBaba:
Gbam..!! You see your mindset.. MUST YOU FOLLOW TO LEARN.. Can't you explore,..

And who are europeans and america following..!?

It appears to me that all you do is read.. You don't think. One who cannot think for himself would always be led, because they are comfortable sitting on the fence.. Smh

Check ya self... People like you are the weakest link.

PS: a question for a question. Because your question makes no sense at all..

Explore?
Exploring sounds adventurous and funfilled... But you forgot the world is moving at a fast pace....No one will wait for you to explore and start discovering yourself when they're already many steps ahead...

Don't you think being a follower is the smartest way of preparing yourself for your leadership role?
Consider the time and costly mistakes it will save.

From there you take what you learn from them and innovate then pave your own path... That's when you'll become a leader...

People don't become bosses overnight... the first serve.

Americans and Europeans are learning from each other... They've already toed the path,made mistakes and learn...Anybody who wants to go all over again instead of learning from them in order to be a leader is just plain silly and naive.
Ask China how they came this far...


I asked you what you've achieved since becoming an atheist... you said it doesn't make sense... OK cool

It obvious you haven't achieved anything apart from jumping from one religion bashing thread to another to show how 'smart' you're... Kudos to your achievements

herald9:
Explore?
Exploring sounds adventurous and funfilled... But you forgot the world is moving at a fast pace....No one will wait for you to explore and start discovering yourself when they're already many steps ahead...

Don't you think being a follower is the smartest way of preparing yourself for your leadership role?
Consider the time and costly mistakes it will save.

From there you take what you learn from them and innovate then pave your own path... That's when you'll become a leader...

People don't become bosses overnight... the first serve.

Americans and Europeans are learning from each other... They've already toed the path,made mistakes and learn...Anybody who wants to go all over again instead of learning from them in order to be a leader is just plain silly and naive.


I asked you what you've achieved since becoming an atheist... you said it doesn't make sense... OK cool

It obvious you haven't achieved anything apart from jumping from one religion bashing thread to another to show how 'smart' you're... Kudos to your achievements

herald9:

sonmvayina:
lol, whats that for?

herald9:
Mr Goosebaba, You're so uncouth,with cognitive dissonance.. I was right afterall when I said you have comprehension problem....I asked of your achievements and your telling me about your ambitions...

So Theists don't lend a helping hand,they only just pray? Stop being naive... Follow others and learn...


#bye

GooseBaba:
Now who lacks comprehension....?

bolded.. Now you see how senseless your question was..

Checkmate..!!!!