₦airaland Forum

Empiree:
This Is My Refutation To Your Allegations:

It has become a standard method of deception by Christian missionaries like Jochen Katz to superficially project issues that have been exhaustively addressed by both Muslims and Orientialsts, as we will see soon, inshallah. These missionaries are well aware of the difference between a transmission and a text (to be discussed in detail below). Yet, they intentionally replace one with the other in order to give the false impression to lay readers that the Qur'an exists in different texts. Thus, in order to address the questions of Hafs and Warsh, we will first offer a short introduction to the key concepts involved herein and then proceed to the heart of the matter, inshallah.

Revelation Of The Qur'an In Seven Ahrûf

It is a well-known fact that there are seven different ahrûf in which the Qur'an was revealed. In the Islamic tradition, this basis can be traced back to a number of hadîths concerning the revelation of the Qur'an in seven ahrûf (singular harf). Some of the examples of these hadîths are as follows:

From Abû Hurairah:

The Messenger of God(P) said: "The Qur'an was sent down in seven ahruf. Disputation concerning the Qur'an is unbelief" - he said this three times - "and you should put into practice what you know of it, and leave what you do not know of it to someone who does."

From Abû Hurairah:

The Messenger of God(P) said: "An All-knowing, Wise, Forgiving, Merciful sent down the Qur'an in seven ahruf."

From cAbdullâh Ibn Mascud:

The Messenger of God(P) said: "The Qur'an was sent down in seven ahruf. Each of these ahruf has an outward aspect (zahr) and an inward aspect (batn); each of the ahruf has a border, and each border has a lookout."

The meaning of this hadîth is explained as:

As for the Prophet's(P) words concerning the Qur'an, each of the ahruf has a border, it means that each of the seven aspects has a border which God has marked off and which no one may overstep. And as for his words Each of the ahruf has an outward aspect (zahr) and an inward aspect (batn), its outward aspect is the ostensive meaning of the recitation, and its inward aspect is its interpretation, which is concealed. And by his words each border ...... has a lookout he means that for each of the borders which God marked off in the Qur'an - of the lawful and unlawful, and its other legal injunctions - there is a measure of God's reward and punishment which surveys it in the Hereafter, and inspects it ...... at the Resurrection ......


And in another hadîth cAbdullâh Ibn Mascud said:

The Messenger of God(P) said: "The first Book came down from one gate according to one harf, but the Qur'an came down from seven gates according to seven ahruf: prohibiting and commanding, lawful and unlawful, clear and ambiguous, and parables. So, allow what it makes lawful, proscribe what it makes unlawful, do what it commands you to do, forbid what it prohibits, be warned by its parables, act on its clear passages, trust in its ambiguous passages." And they said: "We believe in it; it is all from our Lord."


And Abû Qilaba narrated:

It has reached me that the Prophet(P) said: "The Qur'an was sent down according to seven ahruf: command and prohibition, encouragement of good and discouragement of evil, dialectic, narrative, and parable."

These above hadîths serve as evidence that the Qur'an was revealed in seven ahruf. The defination of the term ahruf has been the subject of much scholarly discussion and is included in the general works of the Qur'an. The forms matched the dialects of following seven tribes: Quraysh, Hudhayl, Thaqîf, Hawâzin, Kinânah, Tamîm and Yemen. The revelation of the Qur'an in seven different ahruf made its recitation and memorization much easier for the various tribes. At the same time the Qur'an challenged them to produce a surah like it in their own dialect so that they would not complain about the incomprehensibility.

The verses of the Qur'an dealing with the challenge are given below (Hilali and Muhsin Khan's Translation):

Say: "If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another." [Qur'an 17:88]

And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'an) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful. [Qur'an 2:23]

And this Qur'an is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allah (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is a confirmation of (the revelation) which was before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah), and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.], and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws and orders, etc, decreed for mankind) - wherein there is no doubt from the the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns,and all that exists).

Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it?" Say: "Bring then a surah (chapter) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allah, if you are truthful!" [Qur'an 10:37-38]

Or they say, "He (Prophet Muhammad(P)) forged it (the Qur'an)." Say: "Bring you then ten forged surah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allah (to your help), if you speak the truth!" [Qur'an 11:13]

Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it (this Qur'an)?" Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Qur'an) if they are truthful. [Qur'an 52:33-34]

For example, the phrase 'alayhim (on them) was read by some 'alayhumoo and the word siraat (path, bridge) was read as ziraat and mu'min (believer) as moomin.

Empiree:
Further Refutations

Difference Between Ahrûf & Qirâ'ât

It is important to realize the difference between ahruf and Qirâ'ât. Before going into that it is interesting to know why the seven ahruf were brought down to one during Uthmân's(R) time.

The Qur'an continued to be read according to the seven ahruf until midway through Caliph 'Uthman's rule when some confusion arose in the outlying provinces concerning the Qur'an's recitation. Some Arab tribes had began to boast about the superiority of their ahruf and a rivalry began to develop. At the same time, some new Muslims also began mixing the various forms of recitation out of ignorance. Caliph 'Uthman decided to make official copies of the Qur'an according to the dialect of the Quraysh and send them along with the Qur'anic reciters to the major centres of Islam. This decision was approved by Sahaabah and all unofficial copies of the Qur'an were destroyed. Following the distribution of the official copies, all the other ahruf were dropped and the Qur'an began to be read in only one harf. Thus, the Qur'an which is available through out the world today is written and recited only according to the harf of Quraysh.

Now a few words on Qirâ'ât:

A Qirâ'ât is for the most part a method of pronunciation used in the recitations of the Qur'an. These methods are different from the seven forms or modes (ahruf) in which the Qur'an was revealed. The seven modes were reduced to one, that of the Quraysh, during the era of Caliph 'Uthman, and all of the methods of recitation are based on this mode. The various methods have all been traced back to the Prophet(P) through a number of Sahaabah who were most noted for their Qur'anic recitations. That is, these Sahaabah recited the Qur'an to the Prophet(P) or in his presence and received his approval. Among them were the following: Ubayy Ibn K'ab, 'Alee Ibn Abi Taalib, Zayd Ibn Thaabit, 'Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud, Abu ad-Dardaa and Abu Musaa al-Ash'aree. Many of the other Sahaabah learned from these masters. For example, Ibn 'Abbaas, the master commentator of the Qur'an among the Sahaabah, learned from both Ubayy and Zayd.

I will stop here now. Is there anything in this writing to suggest there versions of Quran?. The answer is No. But if you think there versions of Quran in Arabic, kindly bring it forward. But if you can't find or bring it forward, then shut up....FOREVER

yOU aRE dEfEAteD oN tHIs

dejilg:
I wonder wen dis copy and paste article became urs to use in refutation!!! don't even let me go thro' the nonsense, as I hv read it a couple of times before now, the article ddnt even consider d challenge and even provoked further refutation of the rubbish written here.
Am sorry for your inability to read and comprehend, my question was "which version of the quran did muhammed read"...and not "what's the difference between the version of the qurans"...since u claim muhammed read d quran!!!
and don't let us get into the missing chapters, verses eaten by goats and those lost wen the islamic warriors who recited the died in war...
Please answer the Question!!!

Empiree:
Are you blind...?you didnt see it in my post?. Here it's again in Arabic



And what concern me with your nonsense doctrine. You the one that believe and defended it against op. So take me out of it.

Empiree:
honestly, you sound very silly now. There is nothing to argue here. This is very simple. If you believe there is a Quran missing verses or chapters somewhere different from what we have both in arabic and english translation, please bring it forward. If you can't then you need to shut up.

But i can provide you up to at least 30 different Bibles with missing chapters, verses, contradictions, blasphemies etc. Please dont ask me silly questions about Quran if you can not present evidence. Thank you

Empiree:
This is irrelevant. All you have to do is prove it to your fellow Christians. You don't have to worry about me at all.

dejilg:
Yes, thanks for pointing that out...we can take dem to d scriptures to show them, but I wonder why u got involved at first and now backing out

dejilg:
Now dis shows how dubious and desperate d
quran translators are, now that u hv agreed
that Allah never mentioned d "Trinity"...can
we den say that "Allah" never touched on the
topic Or u stil wanna claim Allah did? Show
us this from the quran if so...
I really laff at ur eisegesis and how u shout
"Paganism" even wen we have told u to stop
misrepresenting the Christian faith...why do
muslims set up "strawman
argument"?...haven't I told u severally to stop
saying we worship "3 gods"...? If u disagree
abt ur ignorance on the "Trinity"...den define
it according to ur undastnding here and let's
see!!!

Empiree:
Are you blind...?you didnt see it in my post?. Here it's again in Arabic

The Arabic word:ﺛﻠـﺜﺔ which means Three (3).
So Qur'an is telling you to desist from saying 3
i:e in reference to you who say "three people
bear witness" i:e God, Holy spirit, Jesus joined
and became One. That's polytheism.

Empiree:
Are you blind...?you didnt see it in my post?. Here it's again in Arabic



And what concern me with your nonsense doctrine. You the one that believe and defended it against op. So take me out of it.

Empiree:
because you dont make any sense. Your fellow Christians like pastorkun, allnaijablogger etc dont believe "trinity" i:e god-father, god-son, god holy -spirit. Dont you believe in this theory?

You better becareful with me cuz if i start trashing ur bibles now, u will leave Christianity......FOR GOOD

dejilg:
so since they don't believe in it, does it make it wrong...well they are free to believe it or not...let's not delve into irrelevances!!!
Now u insinuated I don't make any sense cos I believe in Trinity because these ur so called "Christians" don't, do they make sense when they believe in the atonement? or believe in Paul's writings? or that Jesus is the Son of God

Empiree:
^DOTN GET IT TWISTED. There is nothing like "trinity" in the Qur'an. Qur'an is only saying to you (christians) to desist from saying such thing. Don't some christians say such thing? "meta lokan baba" i"e god-the father, god-the son and god-the holy spirit?. Are you now lying?. Isn't what you defended against op?. are u backing out now?

dejilg:
Ur quran never said this why do u lie Show us "what or who the three of the quran is/are".....and no one says "meta lokan baba"....are u dis ignorant? and am nt defending that against the op....wen did u become disenfranchised from the discussion desperation?!

dejilg:
well the Word "Bible" isn't in the Bible, and are u so ignorant that truths doesn't necessarily have to be expressed in single words or sentences? U said God is never described as "three in one", ok, show where God is described as "one in one" The word Trinity is used to sum up a "divine truth" of God's nature, just as the word Bible is used to refer to "His written word to us"...pls do a lil more thinking before u type "empty words" as these

Deut 6:4
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one."

shows that our Human nature can't be compared to God's, that's why Trinitarians do not seek to claim to fully grasp God's nature and Wisdom, but it seems that these "anti-Trinitarian" groups wud know all of God (by using d human nature, hence God is no more dan us in a sense)... I believe many of the don't even know wat the doctrine of Trinity teaches, but dey just attack it

dejilg:
from this ur reply I now know dat u don't even know wat Trinitarianism is about. If u dnt know the difference between "a person" and "a human being", den how can u grasp it wen the trinity uses the words "Person" and "Being" to summarize the so so Scriptural doctrine of the ONE Being of God shared by three co equal, eternal and powerful Persons?

Pls again stop parading ur ignorance, Trinity doesn't equate the Persons of Jesus to be that of the Father or the HolySpirit...but they are the ONE BEING of God...hence the humiliation of Christ made Him to have the Father as His Head!!! doesn't make him less deity as u r nt a lesser human to the president of the country!!!

I will repeat it, Trinitarians show that God's nature is very different from the human nature of (1 being, 1 person)....but I guess all dis "copy and paste" dude wud just limit their own god(s)..."God must be 1 being, 1 person --- sounds more like a human to me"

Empiree:
weiting concern me?....whether you or them believe in Paul, "trinity", "son of god" and all that nonsense....the whole thing Quran against them altogether. You all make no sense. I will teach you your bible instead. I will teach you who Jesus truly is not your wack doctrine

Empiree:
okay, sounds like your brain can't possibly comprehemd anything here. first, as far as i am concerned, you believe in "trinity". You can twist that all you want. You already defended it earlier. This is what you said to op"

You also said

^confused



Now, watch this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lwRTki1js0

Here is another clip showing christians not really sure what they believe


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grDPJmb3gAs

honestly, reading through your thread, you sound confused. You have no idea what you believe. humble yourself and learn. You sound very annoying.

dejilg:
U never cease to amaze me by showing ur intellectual gullibility...did I ever say am "confused" It seems u will infer just about anything to make sure u say "you are defeated"....and wen did I twist the doctrine of Trinity aren't u d one claiming to know it and yet can't define it? Why do u muslims set up false argument and put it in ur opponent's mouth
also, u seem nt to show us where the quran defined d doctrine of the Trinity and condemned it, are u scared of showing us ur allah's ignorance?! The only thing u can do is to call ur opponent names and shout "confused" wen u haven't actually used even 1 percent of ur brain to see what is being presented to u...can u interact sensibly and stop running, repeating ur pale "wetin concern me"? remember no 1 dragged u here at first!!!
wow u just posted Shabir Ally's videos (not new to his intellectual suicide arguments). U may find it compelling but d dude can't and wudnt just face Christians with wat dey believe but will do wat u have been doin all along, creating strawmen argument and den knock it down
well, hope u go back to read up, cos I really want u to "make me leave Christianity for good" as u claimed to hold such magical powers! seems u r better at it dan ur shabir ally cos he hasn't even moved me 1 bit.
so reading thro the thread frustrates u? that wud be becos I ddnt fall for ur strawmen arguments...and yes, i guess i annoyed u with the truth...u want me to learn from a taqqiyist like u?

dejilg:
[s]well am happy u r showing us partially the ignorance of allah in this post (I missed dat earlier)...

1. Christians don't define the Trinity as "God, HolySpirit and Jesus"

2. allah never defined the "Three of the quran i.e supposed Trinity" as such as well...

Or u want to prove that allah defined Trinity accurately in the quran?[/s]

Empiree:
you are very boring