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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? (15482 Views)
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Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by MizJanet(f): 11:06am On Jun 22, 2015 |
obaobirin: the underlined says it all , TLB is trying to say Jesus went to the sky where birds fly , no wonder it use "sky" . Dats serious 1 Like |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by obaobirin: 11:12am On Jun 22, 2015 |
MizJanet: why didnt u talk about the 2nd and 3rd .....maybe thats were your own father is u just wanna joke about it all. SMH |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by obaobirin: 11:15am On Jun 22, 2015 |
OLAADEGBU: You are disturbing yourself OLAADEGBU.. Your quotes Mentions dont depict what you believe... study the scriptures for yourself and stop quoting people up and down... |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by OLAADEGBU(m): 11:17am On Jun 22, 2015 |
MizJanet: There is no contradiction in the Bible it's just a mystery to those who are without. When you understand the mystery of the Godhead (trinity) you will come to understand that Christ Jesus has the Power not only to raise His body from the dead but to also ascend up to the third heaven. |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by OLAADEGBU(m): 11:22am On Jun 22, 2015 |
obaobirin: He was raptured by the Power of God. All those versions you quoted up there affirm that he did not see death. Where else could he have gone and not see death if not the presence of God? |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by OLAADEGBU(m): 11:24am On Jun 22, 2015 |
obaobirin: What do you think I believe? |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by MizJanet(f): 11:49am On Jun 22, 2015 |
OLAADEGBU: Ascend means " go up" , forget the undelined lie . Its just a church fabrication to deceive their brainwashed members . 1 Like |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by MizJanet(f): 11:52am On Jun 22, 2015 |
OLAADEGBU: I pity you God the father raise Jesus from the dead says Galatian 1:1 ' He Was lifted up says act 1:9 , it didnt say he lifts himself up' Wise up man . 1 Like |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by MizJanet(f): 11:56am On Jun 22, 2015 |
obaobirin: I know insult is part of you holier than thou people's attitude , buh next time if u cant act maturely , pass the insults to me not parents . 1 Like |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by obaobirin: 12:04pm On Jun 22, 2015 |
MizJanet: lol... not biological though...ur spiritual father,... you own 'god' dont get it twisted.. |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by NervousErection(m): 2:17pm On Jun 22, 2015 |
OLAADEGBU:Yes, because a Christian who believes all of the above is brain-dead. 1 Like |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by Emusan(m): 2:43pm On Jun 22, 2015 |
obaobirin: I suppose to quote OLAADEGBU but it seems both of you have the same view and I read malvisguy212 post also though it seems he missed it along the line. I discovered that the way you people explain this very verse isn't the actual understanding of Jesus Christ's statement by many commentators. To fully understand Jesus' statement, let's start from Verse 10 "10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 "Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. [size=14pt]12 "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?[/size] 13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven." NKJV Here, Jesus' statement means No man has ever gone to heaven (in bringing any report) and COME BACK to earth (to deliver it for mankind) except Him who has his origin from heaven and has come down. Let me cite some NT commentators so that we can understand it better. Geneva Bible. "(k) Only Christ can teach us heavenly things, for no man ascends, etc. (l) That is, has any spiritual light and understanding, or ever had any, but only the Son of God who came down to us..." Williams Burkitts "Here our Saviour declares to Nicodemus, That none ever ascended up into heaven, to fetch down from thence the knowledge of divine mysteries, and to reveal the way of life and salvation to mankind by a Mediator, but only Christ himself; who, though he took upon him the human nature, and was then man upon earth yet was he at the same time in his divine nature actually in heaven as God." Albert Barnes "Verse 13. And no man hath ascended into heaven. No man, therefore, is qualified to speak of heavenly things, Joh 3:12. To speak of those things requires intimate acquaintance with them--demands that we have seen them; and as no one has ascended into heaven and returned, so no one is qualified to speak of them but He who came down from heaven. This does not mean that no one had gone to heaven or had been saved, for Enoch and Elijah had been borne there (Ge 5:24; comp. Heb 11:5; 2Ki 2:11), and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and others were there; but it means that no one had ascended and returned, so as to be qualified to speak of the things there." Family Bible "Hath ascended up to heaven; learned heavenly things by actual presence there, and come down from that world to reveal them. Son of man; Jesus Christ. Which is in heaven; whose proper dwelling-place is in heaven. He left heaven for a season only, to return thither again." Jameison Fausset Brown 13. no man hath ascended, &c.--There is something paradoxical in this language--"No one has gone up but He that came down, even He who is at once both up and down." Doubtless it was intended to startle and constrain His auditor to think that there must be mysterious elements in His Person. The old Socinians, to subvert the doctrine of the pre-existence of Christ, seized upon this passage as teaching that the man Jesus was secretly caught up to heaven to receive His instructions, and then "came down from heaven" to deliver them. But the sense manifestly is this: "The perfect knowledge of God is not obtained by any man's going up from earth to heaven to receive it--no man hath so ascended--but He whose proper habitation, in His essential and eternal nature, is heaven, hath, by taking human flesh, descended as the Son of man to disclose the Father, whom He knows by immediate gaze alike in the flesh as before He assumed it, being essentially and unchangeably 'in the bosom of the Father'" I believe these can help us understand the content of that verse. Shalom! 3 Likes 2 Shares |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by Emusan(m): 2:47pm On Jun 22, 2015 |
NervousErection: You're absolutely right. because it's even contradicting for a Christian to believe ALL OF THE ABOVE at once. 1 Like |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by Nobody: 3:28pm On Jun 22, 2015 |
MizJanet:but he is right. The insults could be well transfered to your parents because they are the cause of your misfortune in life. They didnt nuture your childhood with the fear of God thats why you are walking in darkness. Come to Christ and be set free 1 Like |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by dolphinheart(m): 3:32pm On Jun 22, 2015 |
Facts revealed so far from these thread. Enoch: 1. The scriptures never said in any verse that enoch went/ ascended to heaven during his time. 2. That he did not experience death does not mean he did not die. 3. to butress 1 above , the scriptures said he ,enoch(along with others ) saw the promise afar off but have not received it yet and their condition is just like Davids condition as at the time the NT was written. 4. To butress 2 above, the scriptures said all faithfull servants of God ( though it did not mention all, but it did mention enoch by name )died! 5. Jesus stated in clear simple understandable words that "no man has ascended into heaven" . Derived analogy on the words "ascended" or who he was talking to will only lead to false teaching for it was Christ that opened the way to heaven for humans. Elijah 1. The bible at different times used the word heaven to describe different geographical and non geographical locations . the context in which the words was used helps in understanding the word. 2. Elijah did not ascend/go up/ went to the heaven where jehovah and other spirit creatures reside. 3. To butress 2 above , the scriptures recorded that elijah practiced his prophetic duty on earth months or years after the events of the chariots. 4. Points 4 and 5 under enoch supports that of elijah too. 5 . Suggesting that man can ascend to heaven calls into question the ransom sacrifice of jesus and the title/position of savior which he holds. The only way to God is through jesus. Questions : if anyone has ascended to heaven prior to jesus coming to earth is taken as truth. Then there is a level of reward that goes with faithfulness and performance and time for such reward is not uniform . For example elijah who lived after abraham went to heaven while abraham went to the good side of hell(according to some people o!)is this process so? David died before elijah, what did the scriptures say David(who's line jesus came) is , and where did the scriptures say he is? If scriptural quotes are needed , please tell me, ill gladly provide them . 2 Likes |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by Nobody: 3:47pm On Jun 22, 2015 |
Perhaps a different perspective, In the Book of Joshua God instructs that there were to be 48 cities set aside for the Levities to live in. These were not to be for a mixed population they were meant for the Levites only. Out of these 48 cities 6 were to be designated as Sanctuary Cities, or cities of refuge: 3 on the west side of the Jordan, and 3 on the east side. We know that the terms “Heaven” and “Hell” in Hebrew literature were translated as Abraham’s Bosom and the Place of Torments. Abraham’s Bosom was for the righteous dead; the Place of Torments for those who died in their sins, without righteousness metaphorically speaking. The cities of refuge were a physical demonstration of the spiritual principle of Abraham’s Bosom Demonstrating that if you die in unrighteousness, you are already judged. So what one may ask? Well, in the Gospel of Luke we get the story of Abraham’s Bosom and the Place of Torments that centers on Lazarus. And we’re told that when Jesus went there he presented the Good News and set the captives there free, of course the refuge would have been occupied by those seeking refuge from the priestly or local authorities for one misdemeanor or the other. So what or where exactly is this Abraham’s bosom? The clue is in the New Testament, Revelation 11:8 states that Jesus was crucified in `the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt'. This positively identifies the location as Qumran, designated as `Egypt' by the ascetic order of the Egyptian Therapeutate. Luke 23:43 and today you shall be with me in paradise…. The author of the Gospel of Luke writing in hindsight let the cat out of the bag, he was of course referring to Qumran Caves 7 & 8 where the dead sea scrolls were discovered , the caves have the ancient nickname “Paradise”. Of particular interest is Cave 4, south of the vestry where there was a cemetery garden also known as.... you guessed it... Abrahams Bosom. These caves, set up high in the hills had to be ascended. |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by MizJanet(f): 5:14pm On Jun 22, 2015 |
ProphetUdeme: *turns off radio* |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by malvisguy212: 5:41pm On Jun 22, 2015 |
OLAADEGBU:enoch died, and the bible confirmed it,The apostle Paul mentioned the circumstances associated with Enoch in Hebrews 11:5, along with other men of faith, and then stated: "These ALL DIED IN FAITH, NOT having received the PROMISE" (Hebrews 11:13). Yes, Enoch died, and he did not receive the promise of heaven (verse 16) at the time the book of Hebrews was written. Let us examine the phrase In Genesis 5:24, where it says, "And Enoch walked with God: and HE WAS NOT; for God took him" and compare the same Hebrew phrase in: Psalms 37:36, "Yet he passed away, and, lo, HE WAS NOT: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found." Psalms 39:13, "O spare me, that I may recover strength, before I go hence, and BE NO MORE ." The Hebrew for the phrases are the same Hebrew as Genesis 5:24. As in the Psalms, the phrase means the person "PASSAWAY OR WOULD EVENTUALLY DIE" . Let’s look at the same phrase in the book of Genesis: Genesis 42:13, "And they said,Thy servants are twelve brethren, the sons of one man in the land of Canaan; and, behold, the youngest is this day with our father, and one IS NOT ." This was spoken by his brothers of Joseph. What’d they mean by "is not"? So what does the phrase"should not see death" mean? Notice it is not in the present tense, that he "did not see" death, but that he "should not see death." John 8:51, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, HE SHALL NEVER SEE DEATH" Based on Hebrews 9:27, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" and Hebrews 11:13, "These all died in faith, not having received the promises," we must conclude that Enoch died the first death. To believe Enoch did not die is to deny the plain word of many other scriptures as well. For example, Romans 5:12, "...so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" and Romans 5:14, "...death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned." Are we to believe that Enoch did not . 1 Like |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by malvisguy212: 7:34pm On Jun 22, 2015 |
MizJanet:good evening, how are you doing? |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by MizJanet(f): 8:36pm On Jun 22, 2015 |
malvisguy212:Am very fine and you ? |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by malvisguy212: 8:51pm On Jun 22, 2015 |
MizJanet:by his grace, I am ok. I notice some people are annoying you, so I just want to cheer you. Remain bless. |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by OLAADEGBU(m): 11:24am On Jun 23, 2015 |
OLAADEGBU: Suggested answers: In John 3:13 Jesus says to Nicodemus, “No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven–the Son of Man.” This verse is somewhat difficult to interpret and is often misunderstood. It is also frequently used by those who want to find contradictions in the Bible. |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by Emusan(m): 3:04pm On Jun 23, 2015 |
dolphinheart: And the same scripture says "For those who say such things declare plainly that [size=14pt]they seek a homeland.[/size] 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they [size=14pt]desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them."[/size] Heb 11:14-16 NKJV Yet your organization says these pious will live forever on earth in a CITY that THE REMAINING JWs who survive the Armageddon will build whereas the scripture says God had already prepared a CITY FOR THEM. Who is telling the truth, Watchtower or Scripture? 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by MizJanet(f): 4:51pm On Jun 23, 2015 |
OLAADEGBU: The above made it clear that ur jesus dyin doesnt make sense and he is not the way to heaven . No wonder the jews and muslims bash you . @underlined , so some humans didnt die , that means ur bible lied at Romans 5:12 , Paul is not aware that death didnt spread to all men. Bunch of confused beings 1 Like |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by OLAADEGBU(m): 5:04pm On Jun 23, 2015 |
MizJanet: Don't disturb yourself because these things are spiritually discerned. When your spirit man becomes alive then you will understand what is mystery to you today. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14). |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by MizJanet(f): 5:18pm On Jun 23, 2015 |
OLAADEGBU: Mehn , girls are laughing so hard here at the way you are desperately looking for an excape route . Here are the question again. I. Why do you christians shout that jesus is the only way to heaven , Since the old testament saints made heaven without him dying for their sin ? 2. Why is paul lyin that death spread to ALL men , since some humans didnt die ? Please Answer Or Else You Will Embarass youself in front of this girls , waiting .. |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by dolphinheart(m): 11:15pm On Jun 23, 2015 |
@ emusan Nice to see you have agreed that they died and did not go to heaven. What bothers me is ur search for something wrong where there is nothing wrong. We are discussing from the bible here on if enoch and elijah went to heaven during their time(before jesus came to earth) and not on if they will ever go to heaven or are in heaven now. I will explain my view on ur statement only once on these thread, dnt want to derail it. Pls, can you show me where it is states that they will live in a city? A city the pious one will build? (Hebrew 11:16 King James Bible But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. King James 2000 Bible But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly: therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he has prepared for them a city. American King James Version But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: why God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he has prepared for them a city.) You tried to link the word "city" in this verse with the view of jehovahs witnesses on their building works after armagedon. People might not see your twistings , but I see it. You did not tell us about the city prepared by jehovah,what city is that ? Is it for their residence or does preparing such city signify something else. Heb 11:10, 16; 12:22; 13:14 . Re 11:2 Re 21:2-27; 22:14, 19; 3:12.(pls read those verses) Note that also that verse did not say they will go to heaven , but that they lounged for a heavenly country. Did this faithful loyal servants of jehovah later go to heaven ? After listing many pre Christian persons of faith, Hebrews 11:39, 40 says: And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. * some translations use "apart from us" in verse 40 . Note the words in that verse which are "promise", "us", "they". The promise of heaven was made by jesus to his followers and it is based on his ransom sacrifice. There was no mention of heavenly hope for those that died before jesus came. The term "us and they" let's us understand that paul was talking about two groups of people . Who are here meant by “us”? Hebrews 3:1 shows that they are “partakers of the heavenly calling." The pre-Christian persons who had faith,(the "they" in that verse) then, must have a hope for perfect life somewhere other than in heaven. Ps. 37:29: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” Rev. 21:3, 4: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” “Not Made Perfect Apart From Us.” After reviewing the record of faithful men of the pre Christian period from Abel onward, the apostle says none of these got “the fulfillment of the promise, as God foresaw something better for us, in order that they might not be made perfect apart from us.” ( Heb 11:39, 40) The “us” here clearly refers to anointed Christians ( Heb 1:2; Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Heb 2:1-4 : Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard........ which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; .......), “partakers of the heavenly calling” ( Heb 3:1) for whom Christ “inaugurated . . . a new and living way” into the holy place of God’s heavenly presence. ( Heb 10:19, 20) That heavenly calling includes service as heavenly priests of God and of Christ during Christ’s Thousand Year Reign. “Power of judging” is also granted them. ( Re 20:4-6) Logically, then, the heavenly life and privileges that the called ones receive is the “something better” that God foresaw for such anointed Christians. ( Heb 11:40) The revealing of them as they go into action from heaven with Christ to destroy the wicked system, however, is to open the way for bringing liberation from enslavement to corruption for those of creation reaching out for “the glorious freedom of the children of God.” ( Ro 8:19-22) Hebrews 11:35 shows that faithful men of pre-Christian times maintained integrity under suffering “in order that they might attain a better resurrection,” evidently one better than that of the “dead” referred to at the start of the verse, persons who were resurrected only to die again. (Compare 1Ki 17:17-23; 2Ki 4:17-20, 32-37.) For these faithful men of pre-Christian times, therefore, their being “made perfect” must relate to their resurrection, or restoration to life, and thereafter their being “set free from enslavement to corruption” by the services of the priesthood of Christ Jesus and his underpriests during the Millennial Rule. In conclusion enoch and elijah did not go to heaven and the views of jehovahs witneses is not contrary to the bibles view in these matter. |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by Emusan(m): 9:18pm On Jun 26, 2015 |
dolphinheart: If you can't show me where I agreed in my post that makes you a purported liar. What bothers me is ur search for something wrong where there is nothing wrong. We are discussing from the bible here on if enoch and elijah went to heaven during their time (before jesus came to earth) and not on if they will ever go to heaven or [size=14pt]are in heaven now.[/size] You've already derailed the thread by replying me. Now is your view but your conclusion is about JWs is right! Pls, can you show me where it is states that [size=14pt]they will live in a city?[/size] A city the pious one will build? Where did I say in my post that THE PIOUS ONE WILL BUILD ANY CITY? Failure to answer any of my question will result to what @bold-let's read Heb 11:13 & 14 together "13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, [size=14pt]embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland."[/size] NKJV The key points here are: 1. They confess that they are STRANGERS AND PILGRIMS on earth that's why, 2. They PLAINLY DECLARED that they SEEK A HOMELAND. and verse 16 told us that it was HEAVENLY COUNTRY. I will explain the meaning of NOT RECEIVING THE PROMISE as I go further with your post. You tried to link the word "city" in this verse with the view of jehovahs witnesses on their building works after armagedon. People might not see your twistings , but I see it. Lol...I'm the one twisting the scriptures now not your false organization but let's see who is actually twisting the scripture here. Firstly, you're the one who took only the word CITY out of my post Secondly, what I said is that it is God who HAD ALREADY PREPARED A CITY not the remaining JWs who will survive the Armageddon [b]THAT WILL PREPARE WHERE THIS PIOUS WILL LIVE as your organization teaches. Let's read the last part of that verse 16 again FROM EVERY VERSION you used so that you can see how your organization has twisted the scripture. King James Bible "...for he (GOD) hath prepared for them a city." King James 2000 Bible "...for he (GOD) has prepared for them a city. American King James Version "..for he (GOD) has prepared for them a city." So it's evident that God is the very one who will prepared THE CITY not human being. You did not tell us about the city prepared by jehovah,what city is that ? Is it for their residence or does preparing [size=14pt]such city signify something else.[/size] And your hands are too short to post the verses here so that people can see clearly your perversion. I laugh at @bold, you know what? I know you want to shift the phrase "God being the one who will prepare the city" to a FIGURATIVE one typical JWs. But let me help you quote Heb 11:10 for more picture of it "10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God" Please who is the BUILDER OF THIS CITY? Note that also that verse did not say they will go to heaven , but that they lounged for a heavenly country. Are you saying they ONLY LOUNGE IN VAIN when they believed that they are ONLY A STRANGER and PILGRIM on earth? Did this faithful loyal servants of jehovah later go to heaven ? Let me chip in this so that you can see the harm you're causing for your organization believe. The @bold parts show that these people ARE OF FAITH not of their GOOD WORK I know you will find another excuse but remember your own word "...pre Christian PERSONS OF FAITH," * some translations use "apart from us" in verse 40 I will but you also should NOTE how your own points rise against you. The promise of heaven was made by jesus to his followers and it [size=14pt]is based on his ransom sacrifice.[/size] Are you saying these people didn't benefit from the RANSOM SACRIFICE of Christ? There was no mention of heavenly hope for those that died before jesus came. If Jesus is the one who promised heaven and it's based on His sacrificial event, did those who died before Him benefited from His RANSOM SACRIFICE or not? The term "us and they" let's us understand that paul was talking about two groups of people. This will also prove that it doesn't include the 12 Apostles according to your analogy below, don't be shocked that's what your point end with. Who are here meant by “us”? Hebrews 3:1 shows that they are “partakers of the heavenly calling." The pre-Christian [size=14pt]persons who had faith,[/size] (the "they" in that verse) then, must have a hope for perfect life somewhere other than in heaven. You prove here again that these people are HAD FAITH So somewhere else is still to prove that they WILL RESIDE FOREVER UPON IT, [b]but did you notice the very first phrase in that Psalm 37:29 "THE RIGHTEOUS THEMSELVES"? How can one become righteous according to the scripture? About the Rev 21:3,4 I didn't see where these pious will live in those verses? “Not Made Perfect Apart From Us.” The beauty of this comes from the @bold and underline. Please who are the THEM in that verse? A careful understanding of that THEM comes from this phrase "...that heard him" which means the writer here didn't claim to have HEARD JESUS HIMSELF but THE PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY HEARD HIM are the one who CONFIRMED IT to the "US" (you're ignorant off and perverted). With this in mind, the US can't include the 12 Apostles since they are the one who actually HEARD JESUS. For these faithful men of pre-Christian times, therefore, their being “made perfect” must relate to their resurrection, or restoration to life, and thereafter their being “set free from enslavement to corruption” by the services of the priesthood of Christ Jesus and his underpriests during the Millennial Rule. So what is the different between the faithful pre Christians and JWs who had died? Remember you said "BEING MADE PERFECT must relate to their resurrection or restoration to life" because this is the same thing that every Jehovah witnesses who had died will experience (resurrection or restoration to life). Do you means after Jesus had come ALL Jehovah witnesses HAD NOT BEEN MADE PERFECT UNTIL they resurrection comes? In conclusion enoch and elijah did not go to heaven and the views of jehovahs witneses is not contrary to the bibles view in these matter. Yet you've not proved anything but just concluded as programming robot always does. |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by OLAADEGBU(m): 4:46pm On Jun 29, 2015 |
MizJanet: "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me" (John 14:6). Jesus is the only way to heaven. No one goes to the Father without Him. Every other proposal is one of darkness. MizJanet: Enoch and Elijah are still coming back to die as the two witnesses after the rapture. They had their own rapture to paradise but they are coming back as the two witnesses who would then be killed only for them to resurrect on the third day. What is a mystery to you is already knowledge to the children of light. |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by MizJanet(f): 5:44pm On Jun 29, 2015 |
OLAADEGBU: I dont think you are normal, is this not your first statement " obviously, the old testamet saints had gone to heaven when they died" , that declares your Jesus death as totally useless , aftrall humans have made heaven without him dyin for anyone U are a man of deceit and infact, full of lies. Kindly point the underlined statement for me in your holy book ? |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by OLAADEGBU(m): 6:15pm On Jun 29, 2015 |
MizJanet: The OT saints went to paradise which is now in the third heavens. "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). MizJanet: Depending on who you choose to believe, word of faulty man or the infallible Word of God. Some have chosen to believe lies. Will you believe if I give you biblical references to back up my point? |
Re: Did Anyone Ascend Into Heaven Before Jesus Or Not? by MizJanet(f): 6:37pm On Jun 29, 2015 |
OLAADEGBU: From "heaven" you changed to " paradise" , funny enough you called that paradise Third HEAVEN , which means the old testament saints make HEAVEN without your jesus LIAAAARRRRR! Infact the criminal on Jesus side is also an old testament SAINT ?
Yes I will bliv if u show me the verse that said " Enoch and Elijah are still coming back to die " . |
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