₦airaland Forum

Scholar8200:
But He died for all didnt He?

Don't miss the point! The point is, to whom is the verse below addressed to?

2 Thessalonians 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

And the command to preach the Gospel is that all men may hear and have the opportunity to believe or reject His Provision, isnt it? From your logic, the whosoever in John 3:16 is not sincere sins it has nothing to do with their choice, this is wrong. How about John 1:12?

Why don't you attend to the simple verses I quoted? You requested for them didn't you? Give your views on them and let's move on to yours.

Scholar8200:
This does not mean they were marked for salvation from the beginning! We decide if we'll be among the chosen or not;

Surely both assertions above are laughable. The second is akin to saying that , "we chose to be chosen" !

The highlighted were God's original plan for Adam and his before the fall!

Completely false.

These were no knee jerk reactions of an angry God whose creatures were enticed. That Adam fell did not mean God's plan for man had been permanently truncated! The only means this would have been achieved is if satan had succeeded in making them take of the Tree of Life then, that original plan would have been forever forfeited. The delay of the state in which Adam was to live forever shows that God still had plans for him and that is one of the reasons why the severe but beneficial action of chasing him out of the garden had to be taken Genesis 3:22.

It is at least safe to say that before the fall, God had made a provision to save some persons.
If you pay heed to scripture you will understand that He calls them His elects.

Did i just read, " We decide if we'll be among the
chosen or not" hahahahahahahahhhaha common!

Scholar8200 you still have not gotten it because you still think this whole thing is about man. God has a purpose and everything before Him is working in line with it. Nothing, no man can thwart God's divine will.

Maybe you should look at this hard truth

[b] 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come,
and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this ; but when Rebecca also had
conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having
done any good or evil, that the purpose of God
according to election might stand, not of works, but of
him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the
younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I
hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with
God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I
will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom
I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that
runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this
same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might
shew my power in thee, and that my name might be
declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy,
and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find
fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against
God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it ,
Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same
lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another
unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his
power known, endured with much longsuffering the
vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory
on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared
unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only,
but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people,
which were not my people; and her beloved, which
was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it
was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall
they be called the children of the living God.[/b]

Rom 9. There is no getting away from this!

An2elect2:
Did i just read, " We decide if we'll be among the
chosen or not" hahahahahahahahhhaha common!

Scholar8200 you still have not gotten it because you still think this whole thing is about man. God has a purpose and everything before Him is working in line with it. Nothing, no man can thwart God's divine will.

Maybe you should look at this hard truth

[b] 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come,
and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this ; but when Rebecca also had
conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having
done any good or evil, that the purpose of God
according to election might stand, not of works, but of
him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the
younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I
hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with
God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I
will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom
I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that
runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this
same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might
shew my power in thee, and that my name might be
declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy,
and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find
fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against
God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it ,
Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same
lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another
unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his
power known, endured with much longsuffering the
vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory
on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared
unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only,
but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people,
which were not my people; and her beloved, which
was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it
was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall
they be called the children of the living God.[/b]

Rom 9. There is no getting away from this!

That's individual differences for you!
I prefer to start with a cane on these issues, to say the most. It's more than an anti- aircraft gun you have in your hands.

Here are some of the scriptures that show that salvation can be lost and that "Once saved always saved" doctrine is unscriptural.

1Timothy 4v1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times SOME SHALL DEPART FROM THE FAITH, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

This wasn't just Paul talking; this was Paul saying what the Holy Spirit told him expressly; that some will depart from the faith in the last days.

An unbeliever cannot depart from the faith because he was never in the faith. Only someone who once believed in Christ and no longer does, can be said to have departed from the faith.

And to depart from the faith is to lose the salvation. We are justified by faith (Romans 5v1) and saved by grace through faith (Eph 2v8). To depart from the faith through which we are justified and saved by grace is to lose the salvation. We can't depart from the faith and keep the salvation.

So if faith can be departed from, according to the Spirit; then salvation can be lost. Proving that, Once saved is not automatic "always saved".

Another verse.

Revelation 3v5 -He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in whote raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels.

This was Jesus talking; and He wasn't talking to unbelievers. He was talking to christians.

He said that believers who overcome, He will not blot out their names from the book of life. Meaning that christians who don't overcome (or keep the faith) will have their names blotted out.

This proves two things.

One; that being a christian and a member of the body of Christ does not automatically mean one will end an overcomer. If every christian will end an overcomer, no matter what; Jesus would not be telling them; "He that overcometh.."

And two; that christians who don't overcome will have their names blotted out of the book of life, which is the same thing as losing eternal life.

Rev 20v15 -And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So if names written in the book of life can be blotted out; it means that eternal life and salvation can be lost by someone who once had it. Proving that; Once saved is not automatic "always saved".

Another verse;

Romans 11v22 -Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be CUT OFF.

This was Paul writing to the gentile believers, warning them not to be highminded and carefree about their salvation. That if they do not continue in God's goodness by staying in the faith ...they also shall be cut off.

Meaning that the scenario of being cut off from Christ is not an impossibility. A christian can let carnality and carefree-ness degenerate into unbelief and departure from the faith. And when that happens, that christian shall be cut off from Christ.

If it was impossible for a believer to be cut off from Christ, the scriptures will not warn us not to let it happen. And when one is cut off from Christ, he is no more saved. Proving again that salvation can be lost; and Once saved is not automatic "always saved".

Another verse;

2Thess 2v3 -Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Listen; this was Paul writing to believers about what will happen before the coming of Christ. And he said it will be preceeded by a falling away.

Note: the falling away is not referring to unbelievers. Unbelievers cannot fall away, because they were never standing. We stand by faith;

Romans 11v20 -...thou standest by faith.

2Cor 1v24 -...for by faith ye stand.

So only someone that once had faith in Christ and no longer does can be said to have "fallen away".

So the falling away is the great de-conversion from christianity that will happen in the end-times; of which we are already seeing a bit of it.

If a believer cannot later become an unbeliever, and if a christian can never be de-converted from faith in Christ; will the scripture talk about "falling away" as part of the signs of the end-times?

These proofs again that; "once saved always saved" is a false doctrine.

These are some of the scriptures that disprove "Once saved always saved" doctrine and show that:

1. A christian can depart from the faith

2. Names written in the book of life can be blotted out.

3. Someone once grafted into Christ can be cut off from Him.

4. A christian once standing by faith can fall away into unbelief.

If all these scenarios were impossible or can never happen; scriptures will not warn us of them.

This shows in no ambiguous terms and clarity that salvation can be lost. That "Once saved always saved" doctrine is false.

Shalom.

An2elect2:
Did i just read, " We decide if we'll be among the
chosen or not" hahahahahahahahhhaha common!

Scholar8200 you still have not gotten it because you still think this whole thing is about man. God has a purpose and everything before Him is working in line with it. Nothing, no man can thwart God's divine will.

Maybe you should look at this hard truth

[b] 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come,
and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this ; but when Rebecca also had
conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having
done any good or evil, that the purpose of God
according to election might stand, not of works, but of
him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the
younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I
hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with
God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I
will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom
I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that
runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this
same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might
shew my power in thee, and that my name might be
declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy,
and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find
fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against
God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it ,
Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same
lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another
unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his
power known, endured with much longsuffering the
vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory
on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared
unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only,
but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people,
which were not my people; and her beloved, which
was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it
was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall
they be called the children of the living God.[/b]

Rom 9. There is no getting away from this!

An2elect2:
Did i just read, " We decide if we'll be among the
chosen or not" hahahahahahahahhhaha common!

Scholar8200 you still have not gotten it because you still think this whole thing is about man. God has a purpose and everything before Him is working in line with it. Nothing, no man can thwart God's divine will.

Maybe you should look at this hard truth

[b] 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come,
and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this ; but when Rebecca also had
conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having
done any good or evil, that the purpose of God
according to election might stand, not of works, but of
him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the
younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I
hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with
God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I
will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom
I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that
runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this
same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might
shew my power in thee, and that my name might be
declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy,
and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find
fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against
God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it ,
Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same
lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another
unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his
power known, endured with much longsuffering the
vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory
on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared
unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only,
but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people,
which were not my people; and her beloved, which
was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it
was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall
they be called the children of the living God.[/b]

Rom 9. There is no getting away from this!

If I had quoted this, you would be quick to say it is out of context and it is because vs 1 - 5 shows the chapter concerned Israel not the gentiles! Let me ask, since God's Eternal purpose was before the fall, if Adam had not fell, would it have been applicable to a 'chosen' set or all Adam's descendants? If all, did the fall change God's eternal purpose for man? My misunderstood statement actually meant that now, like Adam, we choose if we'll partake of that purpose by our reaction to the Gospel.

5solas:
Completely false.


It is at least safe to say that before the fall, God had made a provision to save some persons.
If you pay heed to scripture you will understand that He calls them His elects.

You sound as though God planned/predetermined the fall and made provision to save some. As regards that which you claim is false, does it therefore mean that all God gives to those who are saved are after-thoughts because of the fall? Does redemption not mean a restoration (and in this case continuation of that which was delayed by the fall and could only have been stalled if adam had taken from the Tree of Life after the fall)? Beginning,to you, only retains its normal meaning when you want to support your position but it changes when it's clearly used to show that God did not get the 'idea' of Sonship through Christ because man fell, but it was His Purpose from the Beginning and though man fell, He immediately prevented man from missing out eternally.

And just as Adam had his choice to enter therein but fell, we all today have a choice, to enter therein by faith or not!

5solas:
Don't miss the point! The point is, to whom is the verse below addressed to?

2 Thessalonians 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Why don't you attend to the simple verses I quoted? You requested for them didn't you? Give your views on them and let's move on to yours.

i will explain using Revelations 17:14,'... those with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful' considering this in the light of the parable in Luke 14:16-24, it is clear that the call is to all, he who responds joins the camp of the chosen; it's not some kind of arrangement that subtly sidelines our free moral agency! And even after that, Revelations talks of faithful after we have responded to the call and become one of the chosen.

Scholar8200:
This does not mean they were marked for salvation from the beginning! We decide if we'll be among the chosen or not;

The highlighted were God's original plan for Adam and his before the fall! These were no knee jerk reactions of an angry God whose creatures were enticed. That Adam fell did not mean God's plan for man had been permanently truncated! The only means this would have been achieved is if satan had succeeded in making them take of the Tree of Life then, that original plan would have been forever forfeited. The delay of the state in which Adam was to live forever shows that God still had plans for him and that is one of the reasons why the severe but beneficial action of chasing him out of the garden had to be taken Genesis 3:22.

So , in your view , the Book of Ephesians was written to Adam and Eve?

Scholar8200:
i will explain using Revelations 17:14,'... those with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful' considering this in the light of the parable in Luke 14:16-24, it is clear that the call is to all, he who responds joins the camp of the chosen; it's not some kind of arrangement that subtly sidelines our free moral agency! And even after that, Revelations talks of faithful after we have responded to the call and become one of the chosen.

This post is pitiable to say the least. Why don't you just argue that there is no such thing as God's choice.

5solas:
This post is pitiable to say the least. Why don't you just argue that there is no such thing as God's choice.

It's okay.

5solas:
So , in your view , the Book of Ephesians was written to Adam and Eve?

The purpose of God described therein was God's original purpose for Adam and his: his descendants that was to replenish the earth. The fall halted this temporarily but is resumed through the Gospel.

Scholar8200:
You sound as though God planned/predetermined the fall and made provision to save some.

Does it sound reasonable to you that God created the world with no end in view?
I sound? What does scripture say, how does it sound?

1 Pet. 1:20
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Eph. 1
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

As regards that which you claim is false, does it therefore mean that all God gives to those who are saved are after-thoughts because of the fall?

Did you actually read the above before posting or you just had to say something? I am supposed to be asking you this question, not the other way round!

Does redemption not mean a restoration (and in this case continuation of that which was delayed by the fall and could only have been stalled if adam had taken from the Tree of Life after the fall)?

God had an end in view when He created Man. Man cannot frustrate His ultimate will.

Beginning,to you, only retains its normal meaning when you want to support your position but it changes when it's clearly used to show that God did not get the 'idea' of Sonship through Christ because man fell, but it was His Purpose from the Beginning and though man fell, He immediately prevented man from missing out eternally.

It was His purpose to have sons and He knew definitely that Man would fall.

And just as Adam had his choice to enter therein but fell, we all today have a choice, to enter therein by faith or not!

By faith or not! Whatever is that suppose to mean? Your writing seems to shun the light.
Except the Son/Father is revealed to us we must all perish.

25 ¶ At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Scholar8200:
The purpose of God described therein was God's original purpose for Adam and his: his descendants that was to replenish the earth. The fall halted this temporarily but is resumed through the Gospel.

Adam and his descendants were not being addressed in the book of Ephesians!
People who had put their faith in Christ were. They were told they were chosen before the foundation of the world!
It is that simple.

Scholar8200:
If I had quoted this, you would be quick to say it is out of context and it is because vs 1 - 5 shows the chapter concerned Israel not the gentiles! Let me ask, since God's Eternal purpose was before the fall, if Adam had not fell, would it have been applicable to a 'chosen' set or all Adam's descendants? If all, did the fall change God's eternal purpose for man? My misunderstood statement actually meant that now, like Adam, we choose if we'll partake of that purpose by our reaction to the Gospel.

If you agree that God's eternal purpose was before the fall, what is the need for the bolded? Do you think God's plan changes just as man's and that He was not certain Man would fall?

5solas:
If you agree that God's eternal purpose was before the fall, what is the need for the bolded? Do you think God's plan changes just as man's and that He was not certain Man would fall?

This question should be directed to you. All that we become joint-heirs for after we believed, were they part of God's purpose before the fall or were new plans after the fall?

5solas:
Adam and his descendants were not being addressed in the book of Ephesians!
People who had put their faith in Christ were. They were told they were chosen before the foundation of the world!
It is that simple.

Are you deliberately misunderstanding my posts? Quote where I said Ephesians was written to Adam!

5solas:
Does it sound reasonable to you that God created the world with no end in view?
I sound? What does scripture say, how does it sound?

What end? I hope you are not saying Adam was going to die even if he did not fall because Bible clearly states that death came through sin! And I doubt He that is of purer eyes than to behold sin will enlist its services because He wants an end!!!

1 Pet. 1:20
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Eph. 1
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of[b] his will[/b],

The highlighted shows God's will was established from the beginning and has not changed; rather inspite of the fall, God's Eternal purpose still stands! The only means it will have been permanently shelved was if Adam had taken of the Tree of Life and lived forever in that fallen state and God moved to avert this!

Did you actually read the above before posting or you just had to say something? I am supposed to be asking you this question, not the other way round!

God had an end in view when He created Man. Man cannot frustrate His ultimate will.

An end meaning the adoption of man that He had made but that was not to be without the free moral agency of the man hence the momentary test of the Garden!

It was His purpose to have sons and He knew definitely that Man would fall.

Prove the highlighted from scripture! I don't doubt the Omni-science of God but I would not make extrapolations and inferences that are not Scriptural.

By faith or not! Whatever is that suppose to mean? Your writing seems to shun the light.
Except the Son/Father is revealed to us we must all perish.

Those who believe enter into that purpose provided they remain and increase therein while those who do not believe are denied access. And is the revelation of the Son only meant for some lucky, pre-selected few? Is it not written that it is God's will that all men be saved? Or are you saying that God wills all men to be saved and at the same time has predestinated (chosen beforehand) those that will be saved?! Is it then sincere to say 'whosoever will' when He has already selected those He will receive?

5solas:

That's individual differences for you!
I prefer to start with a cane on these issues, to say the most. It's more than an anti- aircraft gun you have in your hands.

anti-aircraft gun I think your approach to this matter is better. More grace to you !


And Amen to all the truth you have stated on this thread. Let everyman be a liar and God be true

An2elect2:
anti-aircraft gun I think your approach to this matter is better. More grace to you !

Yours is good too. It is actually better with some persons.
As the Spirit leads.

And Amen to all the truth you have stated on this thread. Let everyman be a liar and God be true

Amen!!!!!!!

Scholar8200:
This question should be directed to you. All that we become joint-heirs for after we believed, were they part of God's purpose before the fall or were new plans after the fall?

I have plainly told you before that God"s eternal purpose from the beginning comprehended the fall of Man. Why troublest thou me any further?
Accordingly all that took place thereafter were no afterthoughts.

Scholar8200:
What end? I hope you are not saying Adam was going to die even if he did not fall because Bible clearly states that death came through sin! And I doubt He that is of purer eyes than to behold sin will enlist its services because He wants an end!!!

Have you ever seen the tail of a dog wagging the dog?

The highlighted shows God's will was established from the beginning and has not changed; rather inspite of the fall, God's Eternal purpose still stands! The only means it will have been permanently shelved was if Adam had taken of the Tree of Life and lived forever in that fallen state and God moved to avert this!

God's eternal purpose was purposed in Christ, before the fall.

Acts 4
24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

An end meaning the adoption of man that He had made but that was not to be without the free moral agency of the man hence the momentary test of the Garden!
Prove the highlighted from scripture! I don't doubt the Omni-science of God but I would not make extrapolations and inferences that are not Scriptural.

You have the proof above , if you need further proof, I will oblige you.

Those who believe enter into that purpose provided they remain and increase therein while those who do not believe are denied access. And is the revelation of the Son only meant for some lucky, pre-selected few? Is it not written that it is God's will that all men be saved? Or are you saying that God wills all men to be saved and at the same time has predestinated (chosen beforehand) those that will be saved?! Is it then sincere to say 'whosoever will' when He has already selected those He will receive?

We heard similar grumblings in Romans 9, it is not new.

Scholar8200:
Are you deliberately misunderstanding my posts? Quote where I said Ephesians was written to Adam!

You implied that when you said:

Scholar8200:
The highlighted were God's original plan for Adam and his before the fall! These were no knee jerk reactions of an angry God whose creatures were enticed. That Adam fell did not mean God's plan for man had been permanently truncated! The only means this would have been achieved is if satan had succeeded in making them take of the Tree of Life then, that original plan would have been forever forfeited. The delay of the state in which Adam was to live forever shows that God still had plans for him and that is one of the reasons why the severe but beneficial action of chasing him out of the garden had to be taken Genesis 3:22.

the highlighted you referred to was Eph. 1:3,4.
I eagerly await your explanation how this can be.

@ Scholar8200
I totally agree with all that Sportsmaster has posted on this topic. I have some comments/questions for you based on your arguments:
1. As has been pointed out, holiness and righteousness are positional not based on conduct. You keep stating that we can only be saved if we remain "holy" to the end. I have a problem with that because I do not think there is any person who is totally "holy". Or is there? If not, are there degrees to the level of holiness we must attain to qualify to make heaven? What kinds of sins are permissible or allowable? Are we agreed that everyone falls into sins? What is the difference then? Is it possible to totally eliminate sin from one's life? How can I be sure I will "make heaven" when I still fall into occasional sins?
I struggled with all these questions even after being a Christian for decades. I was unsure of my salvation despite all my efforts to live "holy"(and I was really "holy", very careful in my conduct, speech, always examining myself). It robbed me of my peace since I knew I could never measure up, there was always something lacking. Thank God I discovered the truth! My salvation is not dependent on me, it is all about Jesus and what He did for me at the cross! He has paid for my sins completely! He offered the perfect sacrifice on the cross! Sin is no longer an issue with God! People will only not make heaven if they reject Jesus! That is the Gospel! The too good to be true Goodnews! God initiated the whole transaction and executed it Himself! All you need to do is believe! Living a life of "holiness" is a result of trusting in the power of the cross to save and transform! Rather than expend energy seeking to live "holy" keep your eyes on your lovely Saviour! As you continue to focus on Him and on His love for you and all He has done for you, you effortlessly begin to live a life that glorifies Him! You don't need to struggle to stop sinning, the transformation happens supernaturally! That is the Gospel the world needs to hear not telling them to stop sinning! If an unbeliever stops sinning will that take him to heaven? That is not the Gospel!!

Charisplus:
@ Scholar8200
I totally agree with all that Sportsmaster has posted on this topic. I have some comments/questions for you based on your arguments:
1. As has been pointed out, holiness and righteousness are positional not based on conduct.

Holiness is the outworking of the life that walks in the Spirit after salvation. We are called to work out that which God by His Spirit works in us as regards doing His good pleasure. All this is based on faith. Now he who professes faith and historic salvation sans evidence of this Divine operation, here is the verdict:

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure:
2 Peter 1:9,10a

Paul further tells us of some brethren that were so purged but did not give diligence (perhaps they assumed it's just a positional thing.)

18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Colossians 3:18.19a

You keep stating that we can only be saved if we remain "holy" to the end.

Sister, it's not my word: Hear Jesus:
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Revelations 3:2-4
Sister, these letters were written not to the unsaved but to the Church. Kindly read them vis a vis the claims on Eternal security.

I have a problem with that because I do not think there is any person who is totally "holy". Or is there?

Sis, if God made Stephen what he was in by His grace, He can so transform us inside out too. Besides, do not base your convictions on what you think is the norm. A little journey into church history will help you see the blessedness of the sanctified and the glory many saw and rejoiced in at the point of death.

If not, are there degrees to the level of holiness we must attain to qualify to make heaven? What kinds of sins are permissible or allowable? Are we agreed that everyone falls into sins? What is the difference then? Is it possible to totally eliminate sin from one's life? How can I be sure I will "make heaven" when I still fall into occasional sins?

We are not qualified for heaven by our self produced holiness. It is our faith. But the proof of that faith is Christ living His life through us in an ever increasing measure lest we be reprobates professing a God Who we deny by our works!

I struggled with all these questions even after being a Christian for decades. I was unsure of my salvation despite all my efforts to live "holy"(and I was really "holy", very careful in my conduct, speech, always examining myself).

The highlighted is the problem. Yes we give diligence to keep our eyes on Jesus (faith) but the walking on the water is by His Power. If we turn our eyes from Him, we sink and struggle!

It robbed me of my peace since I knew I could never measure up, there was always something lacking. Thank God I discovered the truth! My salvation is not dependent on me, it is all about Jesus and what He did for me at the cross! He has paid for my sins completely! He offered the perfect sacrifice on the cross!

Oh yes He did but after we believe these and enter into His Grace, He calls us to deny ourselves, take up the Cross and follow Him daily. He calls us to walk in the Spirit lest we die. He calls us to watch and be sober because danger is near! etc

Sin is no longer an issue with God!

But Ananias and Saphirra? And Demas? Jesus said this to a Church:
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Revelations 16:15 Meaning we have to watch and keep our garments.
Moreover, Bible tells us Jesus wants His Church to be:
a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

And He has made a Provision to actualise this:

even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 [b]that he might sanctify and cleanse it [/b]with the washing of water by the word, 27 that he might present it to himself
(Ephesians 5)

People will only not make heaven if they reject Jesus! That is the Gospel!

But what if we 'accept' Jesus but continue in sin? What if we 'accept' Jesus and slide back into worldliness? The Word stands and though we ignore it we will face up to it one day:

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Hebrews 12:14

How will this Holiness be ours:

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, [b]through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21 make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, [/b]through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Hebrews 13:20,21

All you need to do is believe! Living a life of "holiness" is a result of trusting in the power of the cross to save and transform!

Excellent! However, the absence of this holiness shows your 'belief' to be vain!

Rather than expend energy seeking to live "holy" keep your eyes on your lovely Saviour! As you continue to focus on Him and on His love for you and all He has done for you, you effortlessly begin to live a life that glorifies Him! You don't need to struggle to stop sinning, the transformation happens supernaturally!

Correct! Did I ever imply that salvation is to be obtained by the sinner struggling to stop sinning? If yes kindly quote that post!

That is the Gospel the world needs to hear not telling them to stop sinning! If an unbeliever stops sinning will that take him to heaven? That is not the Gospel!!

I think those that needs this warning are those who say they have believed.

Your points are noted. I have a few things to say though.
I think there is a misunderstanding of the Biblical meaning of holiness. Sportsmaster provided a very good explanation but I think you have not considered it.
What is your understanding of working out that which God by His Holy Spirit works in us?
Are you implying that only Stephen and some people from church history were "sinless"? what happens to the rest of us who still fall short in one way or another? What is our hope then?
The book of Revelations you keep quoting from is talking about churches, true. What exactly does it mean by "not defiling garments", "found their works not to be perfect before God"? Are you sure you got the interpretation right?
Do you imply that everyone who gets born again does not commit sin afterwards? You mentioned continue in sin and slide back into worldliness , I want to ask to what degree should one sin to be classifies as continuing in sin? If he tells a lie today but does not tomorrow and again in 3 days he tells another small lie, he is continuing in sin? Who is in custody of the gauge for measuring sins that qualify as little sins that can be overlooked and those that tip the scales to qualify as continuing in sin?
If sin was still an issue there was no point for Jesus to come and die. All it will have required was for us to ensure we keep all the laws of Moses. Guess what? Jesus came to fulfill the law. He actually made the Jews realize it was impossible to keep. He said if you hate your brother in your heart you are guilty of murder!
The problem I have with people who are always so careful to avoid sin end up sinning more! I have been there! You know why? When you focus so much on it you find yourself falling into it more. Take your eyes away from self-preoccupation with sin and focus on the love of God for you that made Him send His Son to die for you then watch how all those sins will lose their power over your life!
Focusing on the laws of dos and don'ts bring you under the judgement of the law and I tell you that is a dangerous place to be! Do you think you can even keep just 1% of the law? Sins are both commission and omission! We are all familiar with sins of commission, what about sins of omission. So the Bible says to love your wife as Christ loves the church - can you do that? This is just one of them.
Finally I want to share an experience that made me realize there was a problem with this thinking of Christians losing their salvation and how it robs us of our confidence in Christ and the sacrifice at the cross. We organised a programme some years ago in one of the big churches where I was a Minister. We (the Ministers) were supposed to sing during the programme and we chose a song titled "Will you be there?". As we did the final rehearsal before the presentation, some of the Ministers began to weep because they suddenly realized they may not be there in heaven. I got troubled by this at the time but we finally presented to the congregation. The guest Preacher then began her message making reference to the song at the end to ask people to receive Jesus as Lord. The reason for my worry is that if Ministers aren't sure of their salvation, what business do we have spreading the message to others? How can you tell someone to come and have what you have when you have doubts if you have it or not?
Children of God, I ask that you ask your Father in heaven to open your eyes to see the truth in His Word!

Charisplus:
Your points are noted. I have a few things to say though.
I think there is a misunderstanding of the Biblical meaning of holiness. Sportsmaster provided a very good explanation but I think you have not considered it.
What is your understanding of working out that which God by His Holy Spirit works in us?

13 (for if you live according to the flesh, you will die), but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live
Romans 8:13

It means walking in the Spirit failure to do so leads to death.

.
Are you implying that only Stephen and some people from church history were "sinless"? what happens to the rest of us who still fall short in one way or another? What is our hope then?

I did not say that but the Grace he received is available for you and me. There are others I just mentioned that as an example. He prayed for those stoning him just as Jesus prayed for His revilers. That is what happens when we are Spirit led and controlled-another operation of Grace.

The book of Revelations you keep quoting from is talking about churches, true. What exactly does it mean by "not defiling garments", "found their works not to be perfect before God"? Are you sure you got the interpretation right?

What else does it mean? Ephesians 5 speaks of Christ providing for us to be holy and sans blemish nor spot! Jesus likewise gave a list of the things that defile.Paul also did same. Meaning we cannot indulge in them and claim God does not see it!

Paul clearly said:
6 Let nobody deceive you with empty words, for because of these things God’s wrath comes on the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them, 8 for you were at one time darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of the light—
Ephes.5:6-8 Hence dont let anyone deceive you that it does not matter!!!
Meaning if you do them you come under the same wrath!

Do you imply that everyone who gets born again does not commit sin afterwards? You mentioned continue in sin and slide back into worldliness , I want to ask to what degree should one sin to be classifies as continuing in sin? If he tells a lie today but does not tomorrow and again in 3 days he tells another small lie, he is continuing in sin? Who is in custody of the gauge for measuring sins that qualify as little sins that can be overlooked and those that tip the scales to qualify as continuing in sin?

sister, why dont we avail ourselves of Christ's provision for holiness rather than splitting hairs on sin-o-meter? God knows our hearts and is greater than it.
Calvary served to take care of our past and change us inside out from glory to glory as we receive grace for grace; not to change God and His attitude to sin. Else, why did Ananias and Sapphira die after lying? Why did Peter rebuke Simon who recently believed and told him to go back again to God in repentance?

Since there are great and precious promises by which we can be made partakers of the Divine Nature, why dont we labor to enter into that rest and not the 'rest' that assumes or hopes God was transformed by the Cross!!!?

If sin was still an issue there was no point for Jesus to come and die. All it will have required was for us to ensure we keep all the laws of Moses. Guess what? Jesus came to fulfill the law. He actually made the Jews realize it was impossible to keep. He said if you hate your brother in your heart you are guilty of murder!

AMEN!!! However,:

if we truly believe, then:

...[b]the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us [/b]who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit Romans 8:4 Meaning if we are truly saved and walk in the Spirit, the law will be fulfilled in us too!

Is it optional to walk in the Spirit?:

...For if you live after the flesh, you shall die...Romans 8:13a

The problem I have with people who are always so careful to avoid sin end up sinning more! I have been there! You know why? When you focus so much on it you find yourself falling into it more. Take your eyes away from self-preoccupation with sin and focus on the love of God for you that made Him send His Son to die for you then watch how all those sins will lose their power over your life!
Focusing on the laws of dos and don'ts bring you under the judgement of the law and I tell you that is a dangerous place to be! Do you think you can even keep just 1% of the law? Sins are both commission and omission! We are all familiar with sins of commission, what about sins of omission.

Pls this does not correlate with my initial post. Else kindly quote where it does.

So the Bible says to love your wife as Christ loves the church - can you do that? This is just one of them.

Sister, do you realise that Paul loved his persecutors, the Jews to the point that he was willing to perish if that will lead them to salvation! See the Love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Spirit. We can always receive higher impartations of this expression ofthe Divine Nature Eph 3:16-19.
We believe with God all things are possible, why then do we falter at this point?

Finally I want to share an experience that made me realize there was a problem with this thinking of Christians losing their salvation and how it robs us of our confidence in Christ and the sacrifice at the cross. We organised a programme some years ago in one of the big churches where I was a Minister. We (the Ministers) were supposed to sing during the programme and we chose a song titled "Will you be there?". As we did the final rehearsal before the presentation, some of the Ministers began to weep because they suddenly realized they may not be there in heaven. I got troubled by this at the time but we finally presented to the congregation. The guest Preacher then began her message making reference to the song at the end to ask people to receive Jesus as Lord. The reason for my worry is that if Ministers aren't sure of their salvation, what business do we have spreading the message to others? How can you tell someone to come and have what you have when you have doubts if you have it or not?

Sister, do you know their private lives? If the Spirit convinced them of sin at that song was it not that they might make things right? If you read the past great revivals that we crave today, that always happened when the Spirit drew near!
Do me a favour, read up some of those revival accounts!

Children of God, I ask that you ask your Father in heaven to open your eyes to see the truth in His Word!

AMEN!!! And help us to enter into the reality of all that you have provided for us through The Son of Thy Love!

Charisplus:
Your points are noted. I have a few things to say though.
I think there is a misunderstanding of the Biblical meaning of holiness. Sportsmaster provided a very good explanation but I think you have not considered it.
What is your understanding of working out that which God by His Holy Spirit works in us?
Are you implying that only Stephen and some people from church history were "sinless"? what happens to the rest of us who still fall short in one way or another? What is our hope then?
The book of Revelations you keep quoting from is talking about churches, true. What exactly does it mean by "not defiling garments", "found their works not to be perfect before God"? Are you sure you got the interpretation right?
Do you imply that everyone who gets born again does not commit sin afterwards? You mentioned continue in sin and slide back into worldliness , I want to ask to what degree should one sin to be classifies as continuing in sin? If he tells a lie today but does not tomorrow and again in 3 days he tells another small lie, he is continuing in sin? Who is in custody of the gauge for measuring sins that qualify as little sins that can be overlooked and those that tip the scales to qualify as continuing in sin?
If sin was still an issue there was no point for Jesus to come and die. All it will have required was for us to ensure we keep all the laws of Moses. Guess what? Jesus came to fulfill the law. He actually made the Jews realize it was impossible to keep. He said if you hate your brother in your heart you are guilty of murder!
The problem I have with people who are always so careful to avoid sin end up sinning more! I have been there! You know why? When you focus so much on it you find yourself falling into it more. Take your eyes away from self-preoccupation with sin and focus on the love of God for you that made Him send His Son to die for you then watch how all those sins will lose their power over your life!
Focusing on the laws of dos and don'ts bring you under the judgement of the law and I tell you that is a dangerous place to be! Do you think you can even keep just 1% of the law? Sins are both commission and omission! We are all familiar with sins of commission, what about sins of omission. So the Bible says to love your wife as Christ loves the church - can you do that? This is just one of them.
Finally I want to share an experience that made me realize there was a problem with this thinking of Christians losing their salvation and how it robs us of our confidence in Christ and the sacrifice at the cross. We organised a programme some years ago in one of the big churches where I was a Minister. We (the Ministers) were supposed to sing during the programme and we chose a song titled "Will you be there?". As we did the final rehearsal before the presentation, some of the Ministers began to weep because they suddenly realized they may not be there in heaven. I got troubled by this at the time but we finally presented to the congregation. The guest Preacher then began her message making reference to the song at the end to ask people to receive Jesus as Lord. The reason for my worry is that if Ministers aren't sure of their salvation, what business do we have spreading the message to others? How can you tell someone to come and have what you have when you have doubts if you have it or not?
Children of God, I ask that you ask your Father in heaven to open your eyes to see the truth in His Word!

Nice wirte up Charisplus.... you can click on my name to see all the topics on my profile.... Click on my Christian topics and you will love them... All of them teaches on Eternal Security, Who we are in CHRIST, God's Abundance of Grace & The Gift of Righteousness through CHRIST and How The Death, Burial & Resurrection of CHRIST made our life easy here on earth though there will be challenges. But because we have focused on CHRIST, we have overcome them already!!! Happy reading....

jiggaz:
Nice wirte up Charisplus.... you can click on my name to see all the topics on my profile.... Click on my Christian topics and you will love them... All of them teaches on Eternal Security, Who we are in CHRIST, God's Abundance of Grace & The Gift of Righteousness through CHRIST and How The Death, Burial & Resurrection of CHRIST made our life easy here on earth though there will be challenges. But because we have focused on CHRIST, we have overcome them already!!! Happy reading....

Thanks! I am following your posts. Really great! Let us continue sharing these great truths so people can become free!

Charisplus:
Thanks! I am following your posts. Really great! Let us continue sharing these great truths so people can become free!

U welcome dear... oh yes, we will....

I almost fell into believing that i am eternally secured no matter my conduct but thank God, He guided me to know that He That Endures To The End, The Same Shall Be SAVED