dolphinheart:


Kk, give us examples of images that the isrealites bowed to, And let's see if those images are not made by direct instructions from god. Do not make for yourself , that was the instruction.

Seems you don't know what an ark is anyway due to your pride I won't tell you go and tell your virgin mary to tell you the significance of the ark in the OT and if it is still relevant in the new testament

dolphinheart:


Kk, give us examples of images that the isrealites bowed to, And let's see if those images are not made by direct instructions from god. Do not make for yourself , that was the instruction.

so wen moses made d ark it wasn't made for themselves? Mayb for someone else?

The instruction of God didnt make any image, d images werent made by d instruction of God, it was made under the instruction of God by mortals for mortal. So to clarify d people made an image for themselves under divine instructions.

I'll like to hear how u interprete d phrase "make for yourselves"

kilokeys:
I am none of the above.. I am a lover of God.
Believes in Christ.. His birth, death and resurrection
I am not religious.. I am a Christian.


So personally, I don't know the ignoramuses that coined the word "pentecostals" for d modern Christianity..

If u happend to be born on September 11, 2001 does that automatically make u a terrorist?

So how does the descent of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost make us pentecostals?

If most of us were asked to envision God.. I am sure 90 percent would assign him a Caucasian color.. White long beards in a white sparkling gown and golden strapped sandals?
The delusion of symbolism..

Christianity is a religion.

Ubenedictus:


so wen moses made d ark it wasn't made for themselves? Mayb for someone else?

U read my post, you read my request, yet you now ask this question?.
Did you not read the precise instructions giving to moses about the construction of the ark?
If the ark was constructed by moses for his people and god said " do not make for urselfs", yet they made the ark for themselves, does this not tell you what "do not make for yourselves" really mean.?

The instruction of God didnt make any image, d images werent made by d instruction of God, it was made under the instruction of God by mortals for mortal. So to clarify d people made an image for themselves under divine instructions.

1. Good, those images where made by those who made it under divine instructions. it was recorded in the scriptures.
2. Those images would not have been made by those who made it without those instructions. those instructions where very specific and detailed, these details they followed, and where recorded in the scriptures.
3. Those images would not have existed without the directive from god that it should be constructed. Those directives where recorded in the scriptures.

Now apply these to the image(s) of Mary and let's see where we are.

I'll like to hear how u interprete d phrase "make for yourselves"

”Do not make for yourself” means ”do not make for yourself”

italo3:


Yes, I said Joshua 7:6.

Now, don't be lazy. Read it to find out where God approved people prostrating before images...

...before you open your mouth.

Will be right back.

fabre4:
Seems you don't know what an ark is anyway due to your pride I won't tell you go and tell your virgin mary to tell you the significance of the ark in the OT and if it is still relevant in the new testament

The first and earliest churches have always been the Catholics. So their making of Images might just as well have a good justification we don't know about yet. Even at that, people interpret as well as misinterpret the Bible according to how it suites them. A very popular example is the idea of speaking in tongues by the protestants. So stop making conclusions about a church you have no first hand knowledge of.

dolphinheart:


Kk, give us examples of images that the isrealites bowed to, And let's see if those images are not made by direct instructions from god. Do not make for yourself , that was the instruction.

So the Israelites bowed to images with God's approval?

So as long as the Bible shows where God commanded an image to be made, it can be bowed to?

italo3:


So the Israelites bowed to images with God's approval?

I never said that and neither did the scriptures.

So as long as the Bible shows where God commanded an image to be made, it can be bowed to?

No.

Let us use the scriptures to explain our views. Pls discuss with me, let's examine the images made by the isrealites one by one and let's compare them to the image(s) of Mary.
Let's here if the prove of veneration made to these images can find scriptural similarity to that of veneration giving to the image(s) of Mary.
Pls tell on these thread one veneration giving to an image in the scriptures and let us discuss it, then we compare the facts on that image to that of Mary and see if its right to make images for Mary or not.

What is the difference between veneration of Mary and veneration of Image of Mary? Are they the same thing?

PastorAIO:
What is the difference between veneration of Mary and veneration of Image of Mary? Are they the same thing?

I don't think so. One has to do with the image, the other is with the person and can be carried out with or without the image. I mean. There's a difference between a church goer and a Christian though both have to do with recognizing God.

JustTara:
The first and earliest churches have always been the Catholics. So their making of Images might just as well have a good justification we don't know about yet. Even at that, people interpret as well as misinterpret the Bible according to how it suites them. A very popular example is the idea of speaking in tongues by the protestants. So stop making conclusions about a church you have no first hand knowledge of.

First of all I attended a catholic school so I know about their doings
Secondly their is a difference btw assumption and belief xtianity is based on belief not assumption.
Thirdly a good Xtian would put christ first and use the bible as his guide not his chuch doctrine

fabre4:













First of all I attended a catholic school so I know about their doings
Secondly their is a difference btw assumption and belief xtianity is based on belief not assumption.
Thirdly a good Xtian would put christ first and use the bible as his guide not his chuch doctrine

These guys had access to thousands of transcripts before putting the Bible together, you think they just woke up one day and decided “oh! let's make statues of Jesus and Mary"? Instead of antagonizing them that they don't know what they're doing, why don't you give them the benefit of doubt and wait till an experienced father tells you the significances. The only thing you know is what you've read from the bible which is made up of sixty six books, those who started the church had more than three thousand books to go through.

JustTara:
These guys had access to thousands of transcripts before putting the Bible together, you think they just woke up one day and decided “oh! let's make statues of Jesus and Mary"? Instead of antagonizing them that they don't know what they're doing, why don't you give them the benefit of doubt and wait till an experienced father tells you the significances. The only thing you know is what you've read from the bible which is made up of sixty six books, those who started the church had more than three thousand books to go through.

Are you suggesting we listen to an experienced father rather than following the bible cos it was written by someone?
Since the catholics were the first xtian church why didn't they add worshiping the statues of Mary and jesus in their bible?

JustTara:
These guys had access to thousands of transcripts before putting the Bible together, you think they just woke up one day and decided “oh! let's make statues of Jesus and Mary"? Instead of antagonizing them that they don't know what they're doing, why don't you give them the benefit of doubt and wait till an experienced father tells you the significances. The only thing you know is what you've read from the bible which is made up of sixty six books, those who started the church had more than three thousand books to go through.

You are very knowledgeable, unlike many "bible carrying" protestants. I always tell people it was the catholic church's early fathers who decided what books will make up the bible. God didnt do it directly. Human beings (early church fathers did it). There were thousands of scrolls, manuscripts and books that were written. It was the church that decided what books were fit to be in the bible. That is why when i hear charlatans say that the catholic church is not a bible believing church i laugh at such humongous stupidity.

fabre4:













Are you suggesting we listen to an experienced father rather than following the bible cos it was written by someone?
Since the catholics were the first xtian church why didn't they add worshiping the statues of Mary and jesus in their bible?

Stand corrected.....they don't worship the images. If they did, they'll be bowing to it and praying to it. They don't do that. All you've got is your bible, you take it everywhere and have it with you while praying, you put it by your bedstand while sleeping, would I be right to say you worship it? they've got both their bibles and rosaries, the same respect and revere you give to your bible is the same attitude they have with theirs. Plus, the compilation of the Bible was a joint effort of different religious leaders, in fact go and read on it.

JustTara:
Stand corrected.....they don't worship the images. If they did, they'll be bowing to it and praying to it. They don't do that. All you've got is your bible, you take it everywhere and have it with you while praying, you put it by your bedstand while sleeping, would I be right to say you worship it? they've got both their bibles and rosaries, the same respect and revere you give to your bible is the same attitude they have with theirs. Plus, the compilation of the Bible was a joint effort of different religious leaders, in fact go and read on it.

Do you know what a bible is ? Do you know the work of a guide or instructor or collector

If I may ask what is the significance of bowing to the statue

Do not close mindedness and Bias over cloud your sense of judgment

Those religious leaders where they not all catholics ? If you don't believe the bible cause someone wrote it why even believe Jesus died or that God exist after all you were told and it was written by someone? Oh I see you choose the one you want to belief and throwaway the rest. Who is deceiving who?

JustTara:
Stand corrected.....they don't worship the images. If they did, they'll be bowing to it and praying to it. They don't do that. All you've got is your bible, you take it everywhere and have it with you while praying, you put it by your bedstand while sleeping, would I be right to say you worship it? they've got both their bibles and rosaries, the same respect and revere you give to your bible is the same attitude they have with theirs. Plus, the compilation of the Bible was a joint effort of different religious leaders, in fact go and read on it.

Do you know what a bible is ? Do you know the work of a guide or instructor or corrector

If I may ask what is the significance of bowing to the statue

Do not close mindedness and Bias over cloud your sense of judgment

Those religious leaders where they not all catholics ? If you don't believe the bible cause someone wrote it why even believe Jesus died or that God exist after all you were told and it was written by someone? Oh I see you choose the one you want to belief and throwaway the rest. Who is deceiving who?

fabre4:













Are you suggesting we listen to an experienced father rather than following the bible cos it was written by someone?
Since the catholics were the first xtian church why didn't they add worshiping the statues of Mary and jesus in their bible?

I will advice you to read wide so as to understand the word of God. You can't tell me that just a text book will make u well grounded to pass your subject. Off course you will need to carry on a lot of research. Now as per depending only on the Bible to understand and appreciate God then your case will be like a man who makes his house foundation on sand instead of rock. Some books base on my research (Google it) were not recorded in the Bible because Martin Luther King Jr couldn't wait for the Bible to be completed before leaving the church to start his own. Read books like "lost book of the Bible", "18 yrs missing of Christ "I. E (Jesus started his ministry at 30 and we heard from him last when he was 12yrs) so what happened between his 12 yrs and 30yrs. So plz read wide.

fabre4:












Do you know what a bible is ? Do you know the work of a guide or instructor or corrector

If I may ask what is the significance of bowing to the statue

Do not close mindedness and Bias over cloud your sense of judgment

Those religious leaders where they not all catholics ? If you don't believe the bible cause someone wrote it why even believe Jesus died or that God exist after all you were told and it was written by someone? Oh I see you choose the one you want to belief and throwaway the rest. Who is deceiving who?

Again, they don't bow to it. My point so far has been, they might have a good justification from a book other than the ones compiled into the Bible. You get? there's no way they would've compiled over three thousand scrolls to make one book so their reference points might not be included in the book you call a Bible , the people who started the church surely had their reasons, be open minded to listen to them before you make conclusions. At least browse on it.

Does the belief by some that the Catholics compiled the bible now become the pillar for their use of images, expecially that of mary?
What is the correlation between compiling the bible and the use of mary's images?.

dolphinheart:
Does the belief by some that the Catholics compiled the bible now become the pillar for their use of images, expecially that of mary?
What is the correlation between compiling the bible and the use of mary's images?.

Someone argued it's against the Bible, my point is the books in the Bible aren't the only religious books out there.

JustTara:
Again, they don't bow to it. My point so far has been, they might have a good justification from a book other than the ones compiled into the Bible. You get? there's no way they would've compiled over three thousand scrolls to make one book so their reference points might not be included in the book you call a Bible , the people who started the church surely had their reasons, be open minded to listen to them before you make conclusions. At least browse on it.

There's nothing you'll show me in history to make me believe Roman Catholics compiled the bible.


How can they compile a book they refuse to obey in totality. A book some Pentecostals they deride obey more than them.Some Catholics even claim they wrote the Bible. I laugh.


In the new testament we see examples of where Christ and apostle paul entered synagogues and opened old testament scrolls and taught from it. So you people imply the Catholics compiled those for Christ and Paul? I laugh.


What of the Churches Christ rebuked in the revelations(Rev. 2&3). Did the Roman Catholic compile their Bible for them? I see historical lies somewhere .


And yes Catholics worship Mary without even knowing it. Many of them accord her reverence equal to worship... in fact far above worship. Reverence greater than they even offer to Christ Himself.

They name the name of Mary many times more than that of Christ in prayer. They bow to her image in reverence in church and many at their house alter with Mary's statue.


They almost make Mary equal or greater than God by calling her Queen of heaven and mother of God.



They'll hallow, reverence and bow to any formation or reflection in the sky or sea that looks like a woman and call it Mary.


They once had to bow to a mirror reflection on a wall from someone's room in a storey building in a city. A reflection they believed was Mary.


If all that is not worship then I wonder what is.

JustTara:
Someone argued it's against the Bible, my point is the books in the Bible aren't the only religious books out there.

You re right, we also have the koran

This kid no know wetin carry am go church...

dolphinheart:

You re right, we also have the koran

I'm talking about the scrolls where the books of the Bible were chosen from.

ByfireByfire:


There's nothing you'll show me in history to make me believe Roman Catholics compiled the bible.


How can they compile a book they refuse to obey in totality. A book some Pentecostals they deride obey more than them.Some Catholics even claim they wrote the Bible. I laugh.


In the new testament we see examples of where Christ and apostle paul entered synagogues and opened old testament scrolls and taught from it. So you people imply the Catholics compiled those for Christ and Paul? I laugh.


What of the Churches Christ rebuked in the revelations(Rev. 2&3). Did the Roman Catholic compile their Bible for them? I see historical lies somewhere

To me the worst form of ignorance is ignorance of ignorance.

The Catholic church was not made for the bible, rather the bible was made by the Catholic church for the Catholic church. So I wonder why people cry more than the bereaved where they have no stake. (Claiming bible-stakeholder association)


For your information, all the Pentecostal churches got their bible from the Catholic church including Martin Luther, who was a Catholic priest.

What you are doing now is what Luther did 500 Years ago, knowing Jesus more than than than the people that gave birth to Him, breastfed Him, lived with Him, listened to Him, wrote His words on paper, lived with all that followed Him day by day, painted His pictures, Moulded Him and His parents, wrote different versions of his followers stories about Him, and even celebrated his birthdays thousand times before Luther was born.


There are other gospels of Christ, but the Catholic church gave you four, and yet you confuse yourself with only four, what if we give you another 20, I guess it is 20 times confusion. I pity your brainwork as if bible is brainwork

Catholic church worshipped Jesus hundreds of years before they compiled the bible.
So I am still amazed how someone would abandon the church because the church have produced an infallible book called bible, instead of proclaiming the church infallible.

I don't know if you know Jesus or the bible more than the Catholic church or the both.

Kamxin:


To me the worst form of ignorance is ignorance of ignorance.

The Catholic church was not made for the bible, rather the bible was made by the Catholic church for the Catholic church. So I wonder why people cry more than the bereaved where they have no stake. (Claiming bible-stakeholder association)


For your information, all the Pentecostal churches got their bible from the Catholic church including Martin Luther, who was a Catholic priest.

What you are doing now is what Luther did 500 Years ago, knowing Jesus more than than than the people that gave birth to Him, breastfed Him, lived with Him, listened to Him, wrote His words on paper, lived with all that followed Him day by day, painted His pictures, Moulded Him and His parents, wrote different versions of his followers stories about Him, and even celebrated his birthdays thousand times before Luther was born.


There are other gospels of Christ, but the Catholic church gave you four, and yet you confuse yourself with only four, what if we give you another 20, I guess it is 20 times confusion. I pity your brainwork as if bible is brainwork

Catholic church worshipped Jesus hundreds of years before they compiled the bible.
So I am still amazed how someone would abandon the church because the church have produced an infallible book called bible, instead of proclaiming the church infallible.

I don't know if you know Jesus or the bible more than the Catholic church or the both.

Catholic Church gave birth to God, breastfed him,put him in nursery and even wrote the Bible. In fact the Catholic Church is greater than God.



I'm ashamed of you.


You lie better than the devil.

ByfireByfire:


Catholic Church gave birth to God, breastfed him,put him in nursery and even wrote the Bible. In fact the Catholic Church is greater than God.



I'm ashamed of you.


You lie better than the devil.

She said no such thing. You're the one lying on her head like a devil.

JustTara:
I'm talking about the scrolls where the books of the Bible were chosen from.

Which scrolls sis, can you mention them ?

[quote author=dolphinheart post=39502450]

U read my post, you read my request, yet you now ask this question?.

yeah, during the making of the temple the bible records that several images were added which were never commanded by God, they include bulls, flowers and several winged creatures which God never commanded yet after the building of the temple God rested therehe didn't reject it, he didn't scream idolatry as you guys scream today. if God as was against those images that he didn't command, why then did he not reject the temple that contained them?

Did you not read the precise instructions giving to moses about the construction of the ark?
If the ark was constructed by moses for his people and god said " do not make for urselfs", yet they made the ark for themselves, does this not tell you what "do not make for yourselves" really mean.?

you are grasping at straws, the people made those images for them selves under God's instruction and when they built the temple they made several more without Gods instruction

1. Good, those images where made by those who made it under divine instructions. it was recorded in the scriptures.
2. Those images would not have been made by those who made it without those instructions. those instructions where very specific and detailed, these details they followed, and where recorded in the scriptures.
3. Those images would not have existed without the directive from god that it should be constructed. Those directives where recorded in the scriptures.

haahahahah, so what about the images made in the temple without the express permission of God?

Now apply these to the image(s) of Mary and let's see where we are.



”Do not make for yourself” means ”do not make for yourself”

simple after God gave commands that images should be made even the isrealites understood that God was not against all images but only against idols so when the temple was built they put there several images.


let me ask you, do you know what happened after the ark was lost? there was no ark in thetemple when Jesus was alive, Do you know that yet people including Jesus went there to pray, do you know what was there? a drawing made on a cloth.... that was it, there was no ark yet Jesus went to a temple and called it a house of God a house of prayer when all that was there was a mere image on a cloth. even Jesus must be laughing at you, the jews will be laughing at you because it seems those ancient rabbis understood the bible better than you do, it seems Jesus understood it much better.
how is ur day going?

ByfireByfire:


There's nothing you'll show me in history to make me believe Roman Catholics compiled the bible.


How can they compile a book they refuse to obey in totality. A book some Pentecostals they deride obey more than them.Some Catholics even claim they wrote the Bible. I laugh.


In the new testament we see examples of where Christ and apostle paul entered synagogues and opened old testament scrolls and taught from it. So you people imply the Catholics compiled those for Christ and Paul? I laugh.


What of the Churches Christ rebuked in the revelations(Rev. 2&3). Did the Roman Catholic compile their Bible for them? I see historical lies somewhere .


And yes Catholics worship Mary without even knowing it. Many of them accord her reverence equal to worship... in fact far above worship. Reverence greater than they even offer to Christ Himself.

They name the name of Mary many times more than that of Christ in prayer. They bow to her image in reverence in church and many at their house alter with Mary's statue.


They almost make Mary equal or greater than God by calling her Queen of heaven and mother of God.



They'll hallow, reverence and bow to any formation or reflection in the sky or sea that looks like a woman and call it Mary.


They once had to bow to a mirror reflection on a wall from someone's room in a storey building in a city. A reflection they believed was Mary.


If all that is not worship then I wonder what is.

are you aware that when Jesus was alive the Jews the jews didn't have a concluding canon of the old testament? every jew followed his rabbi on what book to accept. the church didn't have a definite new testament for over 300yrs. so my dear even the church called in rev didn't have bibles. the bible was collected by the church fathers canonize at the council of hippo and cathage.