dolphinheart:
@ Jolliano

continued.......


You need to read rev 12 again .



American Standard Version
Arise, O Jehovah, into thy
resting-place; Thou, and the
ark of thy strength.

Darby Bible Translation
Arise, Jehovah, into thy rest,
thou and the ark of thy
strength.

World english Bible
Arise, Yahweh, into your
resting place; you, and the ark
of your strength.


Dnt know why you omitted parts of the verse.



You should have given us a scriptural example na.

1. I have. Still seeing the same things the Early Christians saw in it.

2. Quoting it completely doesn't change its meaning.

3. Even if all queen mothers were bad in character, it doesn't destroy or condemn the office.
Jesus is the New Adam doesn't Jesus committed the same sins or any sin at all.

4. The full commandment is in Deut 4:15-20
15 “Therefore watch yourselves very carefully. Since you
saw no form on the day that the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire,
16 beware lest you act corruptly by making a carved image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17 the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air,
18 the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth.
19 And beware lest you raise your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them, things that the LORD your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven.
20 But the LORD has taken you and brought you out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be a people of his own inheritance, as you are this day."

In context, worshiping anything other than God is idolatry. Don't build images and worship them. Not don't build images at all.

You forget that we are all images made by God.

4. When the early christians were making these carvings and images, there was no bible. So this was how they remembered those who had gone before them.

Images are of two types (Statues which are carved and pictures which are painted,drawn or snapped). They are all the same.

Some are 3 dimensional while others are 2 dimensional.

Some are geometrical and some are plane.

this difference doesn't change the fact that they are images.

Jolliano:


1.So John and Genesis are talking about 2 beginnings. Wow? Can you tell me the difference between the two beginnings? And tell me which of the Apostles or Early Christians believed or taught this blasphemy you are spewing?

genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

These verse was talking about the creation of the heaven and the earth, therefore the part of the sentence " in the beginning" refers to the beginning of the heavens and earth, or more accurately to the beginning of the creation of heaven and earth.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word

"the word here refers to jesus and these statement is saying that the word existed in the beginning.

now to compare the two verses
1. is the beginning in John the same as the beginning in genesis? no
2. did Jesus exist before the creation of the heaven and earth ? yes
3. did the heaven and earth exist at the same time with jesus? no
4. where there spirit creatures created prior to the beginning of the creation of heaven and earth?yes

therefore bro, the two beginnings are not the same. If you have a contrary view, pls tell us what you know about " in the beginning".

2.I don't quote completely because it would make it longer. That is why I put the verses of the bible for everyone to check the full sentence from the bible.

it's not that hard to copy and paste the verses, u dnt even have to type the whole verse, just Copley the statement or main part of the sentence if there is nothing to hide.

3. One God, 3 persons. Simple illustration is A candle. When you light a candle, you originally have fire. But the fire brings light and the light brings heat. You cannot seperate the fire from the light,the light from the heat or the heat from the fire. Though they look different, they are ONE.

The scriptures never taught us so, an attempt to use an example outside the scriptures shows that the trinity is man made and the scriptures does not support it.
without the fire there is no light or heat, so who is the fire among the three,? so we can know who created the other two!
dnt worry, the three will soon become million GOD'S in one God when humans share in the divine nature and [b]become one [/b]with jesus and the father.

Why did Jesus ask them to baptize in the name of The Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit?

What does it mean to be baptized “in the name of the Father”? It means that the baptismal candidate recognizes our heavenly Father’s office and authority. Jehovah God is thus acknowledged as our Creator, “the Most High over all the earth,” and the Universal Sovereign.—

ps 83:18King James Bible
That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

isa 40: 28
American Standard Version
Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard? The everlasting God, Jehovah, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary; there is no searching of his understanding.

acts 4:28
King James Bible
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

Being baptized ‘in the name of the Son’ means what? To be baptized ‘in the name of the Son’ means to recognize Jesus’ office and authority as God’s only-begotten Son.
1 John 4:9
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Those qualified for baptism accept Jesus as the one through whom God has provided “a ransom in exchange for many.”
1 ti 2: 5,6
King James Bible
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

read also matt 20:28
Baptismal candidates must also acknowledge the “superior position” to which God has exalted his Son.


Phil 2:8-11
And being found in fashion[b] as a man,[/b] he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: : That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord( not God), to the glory of God the Father.

read rev 19:16

What is signified by being baptized ‘in the name of the holy spirit’? This indicates that the baptismal candidates recognize that the holy spirit is Jehovah’s active force, used in various ways in harmony with his purpose. gen 1:2 , 2 Sam 23:1,2 , 2 Peter 1:21
Those qualifying for baptism acknowledge that the holy spirit helps them to understand “the deep things of God,” to carry on the Kingdom-preaching work, and to display the spirit’s fruitage of “love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.”

Jesus’ early followers drew clear distinctions between God, Christ, and the holy spirit. In fact, they baptized disciples (1) in the name of the Father, (2) in the name of the Son, and (3) in the name of the holy spirit, not in the name of a trinity.

He did not say names. He said name. That shows you that they are one.[/quoteso what is that name, and how do you baptize in that name.

bro, to speak or to act ‘in the name of’ another denoted doing so as a representative of that one.
ex 5:23
De 10:18, 18:5,7 19-22.
1 Sam 17:45.
Similarly, to receive a person in the name of someone would indicate a recognition of that one. Therefore, to ‘receive a prophet in the name of a prophet’ would signify receiving a prophet because of his being such. Matt 10:41.
And to baptize in “the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit” would mean in recognition of the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit.
When people come to an accurate knowledge of God and want to serve him, they are baptized “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit.” They understand and accept the authority of Jehovah and the role of Jesus Christ in the outworking of Jehovah’s purpose. They also comprehend the function and activity of God’s holy spirit, which is his active force.

[quote]4. I never said Eve was created on the seventh day. The first time Adam saw Eve was on the Seventh day.

What day was eve created?

5. I didn't say Jesus referred to Mary everytime he said woman. I said Jesus referred to Mary as WOMAN which is suprising since she was his MOTHER.

It might be suprising to you, but not to those who know what jesus called the female specie and the position of Mary in God's, and not human fomulating arrangements

6. Your questions about REV 12, I have already answered.

pls direct me to where you answered the three questions.

Actually, you ought to restart. But continue if you want.

dolphinheart:


genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

These verse was talking about the creation of the heaven and the earth, therefore the part of the sentence " in the beginning" refers to the beginning of the heavens and earth, or more accurately to the beginning of the creation of heaven and earth.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word

"the word here refers to jesus and these statement is saying that the word existed in the beginning.

now to compare the two verses
1. is the beginning in John the same as the beginning in genesis? no
2. did Jesus exist before the creation of the heaven and earth ? yes
3. did the heaven and earth exist at the same time with jesus? no
4. where there spirit creatures created prior to the beginning of the creation of heaven and earth?yes

therefore bro, the two beginnings are not the same. If you have a contrary view, pls tell us what you know about " in the beginning".


it's not that hard to copy and paste the verses, u dnt even have to type the whole verse, just Copley the statement or main part of the sentence if there is nothing to hide.


The scriptures never taught us so, an attempt to use an example outside the scriptures shows that the trinity is man made and the scriptures does not support it.
without the fire there is no light or heat, so who is the fire among the three,? so we can know who created the other two!
dnt worry, the three will soon become million GOD'S in one God when humans share in the divine nature and [b]become one [/b]with jesus and the father.



What does it mean to be baptized “in the name of the Father”? It means that the baptismal candidate recognizes our heavenly Father’s office and authority. Jehovah God is thus acknowledged as our Creator, “the Most High over all the earth,” and the Universal Sovereign.—

ps 83:18King James Bible
That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

isa 40: 28
American Standard Version
Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard? The everlasting God, Jehovah, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary; there is no searching of his understanding.

acts 4:28
King James Bible
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

Being baptized ‘in the name of the Son’ means what? To be baptized ‘in the name of the Son’ means to recognize Jesus’ office and authority as God’s only-begotten Son.
1 John 4:9
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Those qualified for baptism accept Jesus as the one through whom God has provided “a ransom in exchange for many.”
1 ti 2: 5,6
King James Bible
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

read also matt 20:28
Baptismal candidates must also acknowledge the “superior position” to which God has exalted his Son.


Phil 2:8-11
And being found in fashion[b] as a man,[/b] he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: : That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord( not God), to the glory of God the Father.

read rev 19:16

What is signified by being baptized ‘in the name of the holy spirit’? This indicates that the baptismal candidates recognize that the holy spirit is Jehovah’s active force, used in various ways in harmony with his purpose. gen 1:2 , 2 Sam 23:1,2 , 2 Peter 1:21
Those qualifying for baptism acknowledge that the holy spirit helps them to understand “the deep things of God,” to carry on the Kingdom-preaching work, and to display the spirit’s fruitage of “love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.”

Jesus’ early followers drew clear distinctions between God, Christ, and the holy spirit. In fact, they baptized disciples (1) in the name of the Father, (2) in the name of the Son, and (3) in the name of the holy spirit, not in the name of a trinity.

Firstly, God's name is YAHWEH and not Jehovah.

1. The beginning.
Yes. Jesus as the Word and God existed before creation. The two beginnings are the same.
If you say that Genesis is the beginning of Creation, then John is the beginning of God. And God has no beginning.

Like I always say. In context,there is a union in both beginnings. Verses 2 and 3 of John 1 shows this clearly.


2. The Trinity.
Oh! So now all examples must come from the BIBLE. Wow! Okay!

You are still using singular individual and disconnected verses. Do a bible study. Show us a connection from the bible not just different verses that you like and want to twist.

NOTE: Jesus did not say in the name of the Father and the name of the Son and the name of the Holy Spirit. But "In the name of the father, and of the Son and of The Holy Spirit".

He says, ‘in the name’, not ‘in the names’, to show the unity of essence; but by adding three names, he indicates that there are three persons.

Once again, the OR mentality comes up. You rightly believe just as Catholic do that there is one God. But you think it is either Yahweh or Jesus.
The mentality that Jesus and his apostles uses is an AND mentality.
Jesus says "I AND the Father are one" - John 10:30.

You say Jesus is a god meaning a lesser God than God the Father. You seem to think that Jesus is a lesser God but that is unbiblical.

For we know that "God" (singular) created the heavens and the earth. - Gen 1:1.

And we also know that "God" said "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."

Since there can only be one Creator or "God" then the "us" in Gen 1:26 must refer to the Persons of the Holy Trinity (co-equal and co-eternal).
If the "us" in Gen 1:26 were other gods (lesser gods). Then why does God in Exodus 20:2-3 say:"I, the Lord, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. You shall not have other gods besides me.

Jesus Followers = The early christians.

Quote one early christian who taught or wrote against Trinity

Ha unable too speak plenty grammar for book wen white man introduce unable to. Unable no fit know pass am o. Unable know wetin him hide? , na only Almighty GOD know best we just dey follow, follow. Pls its not knowing how to quote d bible dat matters it Ur Love for God and ur neighbors that matters, d man dat started dis topic did not say he bowed to any image, and if he did no one forced him, his point was very clear, we should not judge.

Jolliano:


PART 2:

1. Turning water to wine is a miracle and you want to compare it with calling disciples?

2. Firstly, your arguments show that you know nothing about typology and I'm suprised because it was used a lot by Jesus and the Apostles in the NT.

not talking about topology bro, you said Mary pushed jesus to his first glorious deed
now did Jesus do any glorious deed before turning water into wine? e.g the selection of his disciples. is that a glorious deed or just an ordinary deed? and turning water unto wine at a wedding is more glorious.

Jesus said God gave him his brothers.

Read Revelations 12 again.

you gave a wrong summary of rev 12 and deliberately omitted some few things.

3. Again, TYPOLOGY. Which woman's seed(Child) crushed the head of Satan? This one is too obvious for you to try arguing against.

Bro, answering a question with a question will get us knowhere. just tell me you dnt want to answer the question and ill not ask you again. and if you feel you want to answer, pls do so in ur next reply. dnt forget to quote the verse.

4. I never said Mary told Jesus what to do. The First Eve and First Adam sinned on a tree. The Second Adam undid it on a wooden Cross(Tree of Life) and the Second Eve was there beside him.

now if Mary did not tell jesus what to do, why do you compare her to Eve who gave Adam the fruit. Again I tell you, all that Jesus christ did was from his father and Mary had no hand in it. Mary did what every other upright woman bringin up a child would have done.

5. Believing the devil means Disbelieving God. She could not have believed both of them at the same time, could she?
Or did she still believe God and obeyed devil at the same?

again, I tell you, there sin was for disobedience, not disbelief.

6. You have never heard of the Adamic or Edenic covenant? With all the bible you are quoting here! Read Genesis 1 and 2.
God had a covenant with all humans which was carried and represented by Eve and Adam. That is why all humans share in the sin and punishment which occur as a result of the broken covenant.

who is talking about an adamic covenant here? but since you mentioned it, pls tell, what and where is the ark of the Adamic covenant since you say all covenant has ark.

7.

A. Irrelevant question. Jesus is the new Adam according to the bible. Did Jesus marry and have children like Adam?

good, can you now see where your topology is flawed?. Jesus is not the old Adam, Jesus is a new Adam, but not because of similarity in features or words. likewise Mary and the ark, it is flawed cus God did not dwell in the ark and God does not dwell in houses made by man, and Mary did not give us any covenant and neither was any covenant agreed on between Mary and God.

B. Again, irrelevant question. The point is not touching but defiling and irreverence. The ark was attached with poles for the Priests to carry it with. That was reverence. Knowing that arrangement, doing something else would be irreverence.

Ill tell you they where punished for disobedience ,not for lack of respect or reverence!

C. "Honour your father and mother". Physically? Yes. Spiritually? Yes.

A.So how do you honour ur biological mother, that is different from how u honour her spiritually
B.how do you honor ur mother spiritually.
C.how is Mary your mother.( remember, the woman in rev 12 is not mary, and before you start saying we are jesus brothers, remember what jesus said about who is brothers and mothers where)

D. Irrelevant question. Did God instruct you to snap a picture of anyone? Images and statues are used to remember people and events. I don't know how you think that God who gave us a brain and memory will be against us using them to remember ourselves.

did God instruct you to make an image of Mary? answer : NO.!
pictures are taken from the appearance of the real person, they are not venerated and the puctures are not used for religious purposes. all pictures, statues ,images, used for religious worship purpose in the scriptures are there by God's direct command and instructions.
reading about the activities of someone you have never met is better than having a picture of that same per son, and that is exactly what the disciples did. They wrote about Mary, not make a statue of her.

E. Firstly,we don't venerate Mary's image. We venerate Mary. I could use this argument against the bible but that is irrelevant.
We treat the image specially, yes. Because of who it represents. Would you throw a picture of a relative you love on the floor? Or would you keep it in a special place?

pictures of relatives I've not met goes into the achieves. but I've seen humans and pagan worshipers put the image of those they venerate in special places.

A major part of the veneration given to Jesus was not given to him during his lifetime on earth. Same for Mary. I don't see how that is a problem.

give me an example and we will look at it.

The early christians (without whom you would never have heard of Jesus, being a Christian or seen the bible and yet you chose to disregard and ignore) show all these things in their writings and their carvings and paintings in the Catacombs.

pls show me.

8. You seriously want to argue Theology with a dictionary?
Well, until, to and unto serve the same purpose. They show a range or period of time.
So "to the day of her death". What happened after her death? Did she have children? No.

Until, to and unto does not serve the same purpose.
"to" indicates direction, it does not have a time frame. she did not have a child till she died. full stop. looking or adding what happened to her after she died is a wrong understanding of that statement. and who is to say she wunderkind have a child if she is ressurected.

Jesus was always in heaven. Even when he came in human form, he was still in heaven. The Trinity cannot, has never and will never be seperated. You forget that God(The Trinity) is everywhere.

use the scriptures to explain or support the bold.
"Our father in heaven" jesus prayed!

So till,until,to and unto does not mean something different occured.

very wrong.

9. There were not brothers of Jesus or children of Mary.
Jesus and the apostles spoke Aramaic/Hebrew and in that language and there was no word for cousin or nephew. They would have to say "son of my father's brother" and to avoid that they simply said kinsman or brother. The disciples who wrote the bible wrote it with that sense and even Matthew wrote his Gospel in Aramaic/Hebrew.[/quote]
pls tell us, in what language was the english gospel translated from? aramaic/Hebrew or greek.
where the gospels written originally by the original writers in Greek?
is there a word for cousin in Greek?
If there is,then why did the disciples not use the greek word for cousin when writing an original book in Greek.

James in Gal 1:19 is called brother of the Lord but we all know that James the apostle was not his brother. Same as those written in Acts.

that is why you where specifically told that this James is the lords(jesus) brother. not James the disciple.

Also, we know that James the younger’s mother was named Mary. Look at the descriptions of the women standing beneath the cross:
"among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee" (Matt. 27:56);
"There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome" (Mark 15:40).

are you trying to say that the Mary that wanted to see jesus was his aunty and not his mother?
This james(the younger) is not jesus half brother. The scripture told us who his father was. Jesus half brothers believed in Jesus only after his death.

Then look at what John says: "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene" (John 19:25). If we compare these parallel accounts of the scene of the crucifixion, we see that the mother of James and Joseph must be the wife of Clopas. So far, so good.

you are right, but not the mother of James and Joseph mentioned Earlier in Jesus hometown.
you are trying to merge 3 different james together.

An argument against this, though, is that James is elsewhere (Matt. 10:3) described as the son of Alphaeus, which would mean this Mary, whoever she was, was the wife of both Clopas and Alphaeus. But Alphaeus and Clopas are the same person, since the Aramaic name for Alphaeus could be rendered in Greek either as Alphaeus or as Clopas. Another possibility is that Alphaeus took a Greek name similar to his Jewish name, the way that Saul took the name Paul.

So it’s probable that James the younger is the son of Mary and Clopas. The second-century historian Hegesippus explains that Clopas was the brother of Joseph, the foster-father of Jesus. James would thus be Joseph’s nephew and a cousin of Jesus, who was Joseph’s foster son.

pls direct us to where you got this info from, especially that of
historian Hegesippus.
The 3 differ James have different parents.
Wat of Simon and Judas.

10. Sinlessness.
Mary like all humans was bound to fall into sin. But God saved her from grace from the very creation of her and so she has been sinless right from her creation, birth till now.

stop passing unbiblical information, you have done enough damage with her elivation, now you want to make her perfect from birth. An act that cannot be achieved by humans through any means except jesus. you are now saying she had achieved it before jesus was even born.
you saw had to happen before jesus had to be born perfect, maybe you have prove that Mary was born the same way.

Look at it this way.
A woman on a boat is carrying a baby in her arms and then she trips and throws the babies as she falls. If one baby land in the water and I jump into the water and bring the baby out, I saved the baby.
If I catch the baby before he falls into the water, I still saved the baby.

All fell into sin from birth thanks to Adam (Original sin). And Christ saved them by his Death.
Christ saved Mary from falling into the sin as Noble And Perfect Gate which he was to pass through. God cannot stay near sin. His eyes are too holy to behold sin.

So Mary was born in sin before she was saved by Jesus!

Angel Gabriel said "Hail, full of grace".
Full of Grace = Empty of Sin.

In fact, the angel said Kecharitomene, which is a past perfect participle.
This means:
Full of Grace in the past and forever(continuously) full of Grace.

luke 1:28
New International version
...... went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! [/b]The Lord is with you."
new American Standard Bible
.... "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."
King James Bible
.....Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee:....


Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
28. highly favoured—a word only once used elsewhere (Eph 1:6, "made accepted": compare Lu 1:30, "Thou hast found favour with God." The mistake of the Vulgate's rendering, "full of grace," has been taken abundant advantage of by the Romish Church. As the mother of our Lord, she was the most "blessed among women" in external distinction; [b]but let them listen to the Lord's own words. "Nay, rather blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it." (See on [1537]Lu 11:27/b]

dolphinheart:


Ur interpretation and mine can be discussed using the scriptures as a guide.

not exactly true.

You are simply going to support ur personal interpretation of scripture wit more personal interpretation. I'll rather support scripture with 'the pillar and bulwark of truth' and the testimony of the early xtians.

Jolliano:


1. I have. Still seeing the same things the Early Christians saw in it.

by early christians , you mean ur church right!?

rev 12
A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 she was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” a And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”
13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against[b] the rest of her offspring[/b]—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

pls explain the bolded parts, the ones you omitted from ur summary.

2. Quoting it completely doesn't change its meaning.

is Mary the ark of God's strength?

3. Even if all queen mothers were bad in character, it doesn't destroy or condemn the office.
Jesus is the New Adam doesn't Jesus committed the same sins or any sin at all.

the scriptures has shown you his own view of the title and authority of the Queen Mother, a title not anointed or ordained by God. you now want to force such title on Mary, something she nor jesus ever told you to do.

The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes to offer to the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to arouse my anger.

Then all the men who knew that their wives were burning incense to other gods, along with all the women who were present—a large assembly—and all the people living in Lower and Upper Egypt, said to Jeremiah, 16 “We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD! 17 We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our ancestors, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. 18 But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine.”
19 The women added, “When we burned incense to the Queen of Heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did not our husbands know that we were making cakes impressed with her image and pouring out drink offerings to her?”
20 Then Jeremiah said to all the people, both men and women, who were answering him, 21 “Did not the LORD remember and call to mind the incense burned in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem by you and your ancestors, your kings and your officials and the people of the land? 22 When the LORD could no longer endure your wicked actions and the detestable things you did, your land became a curse and a desolate waste without inhabitants, as it is today. 23 Because you have burned incense and have sinned against the LORD and have not obeyed him or followed his law or his decrees or his stipulations, this disaster has come upon you, as you now see.”

4. The full commandment is in Deut 4:15-20
15 “Therefore watch yourselves very carefully. Since you
saw no form on the day that the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire,
16 beware lest you act corruptly by making a carved image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17 the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air,
18 the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth.
19 And beware lest you raise your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them, things that the LORD your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven.
20 But the LORD has taken you and brought you out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be a people of his own inheritance, as you are this day."

In context, worshiping anything other than God is idolatry. Don't build images and worship them. Not don't build images at all.

is the use of the image of Mary part of ur worship or just a personal thing?
is the image blessed?
If the answers are yes, then you are breaking that law, cus you did not see any form! so dnt make any unistructed form!
do not make on ur own any Image!

You forget that we are all images made by God.

dnt twist the scriptures. do we have similar physical features like God?

4. When the early christians were making these carvings and images, there was no bible. So this was how they remembered those who had gone before them.

pls show us one of such carvings or images.

Images are of two types (Statues which are carved and pictures which are painted,drawn or snapped). They are all the same.

Some are 3 dimensional while others are 2 dimensional.

Some are geometrical and some are plane.

this difference doesn't change the fact that they are images.

good, but dnt make one as part of ur worship or religious rites to God.
take an example from the isrealites who heeded the words of Deut 4: 15 and watched themselves very carefully. They did not make the image of moses, who was very very very important to them as part of their worship to God. all the images they made for worship was as a direct and recorded instruction from God. moreover those images where kept in a place where they (the general populace) cannot see them.

Jolliano:


Firstly, God's name is YAHWEH and not Jehovah.

1. how did you arrive at that?
2.does your translation use that name?

1. The beginning.
Yes. Jesus as the Word and God existed before creation. The two beginnings are the same.

the bold says it all, the word and the earth do not have the same beginning.

If you say that Genesis is the beginning of Creation, then John is the beginning of God. And God has no beginning.

is genesis not talking about the beginning of the creation of the heaven's and earth.?
The word is the one being said to have a beginning, it was with God! The verse did not say God had a beginning.
moreover, you have not told us what you understand by "in the beginning".

Like I always say. In context,there is a union in both beginnings. Verses 2 and 3 of John 1 shows this clearly.

and you have refused to share that knowledge with us here.

2. The Trinity.
Oh! So now all examples must come from the BIBLE. Wow! Okay!

You are still using singular individual and disconnected verses. Do a bible study. Show us a connection from the bible not just different verses that you like and want to twist.

I use the bible, I quote from the scriptures words and sentences that are directly related to what is being discussed. I do not use derived analogy, I tell you as the scripture says it.
You have not given a different, straightforward explanation on most of the scriptures I quoted.

you do not have one single example in the scriptures to show you that Jesus, the father and holy spirit come together to form God, that is why you us any trilogy based example outside the scriptures.

NOTE: Jesus did not say in the name of the Father and the name of the Son and the name of the Holy Spirit. But "In the name of the father, and of the Son and of The Holy Spirit".

He says, ‘in the name’, not ‘in the names’, to show the unity of essence; but by adding three names, he indicates that there are three persons.

simply tell us what that name is! and how u use it to babtize.
can you see what I'm saying about derived analogy? you now inscribe "unity of essence cus you view they have one name. This is what the lack of example to surpport a doctrine can cause.

Once again, the OR mentality comes up. You rightly believe just as Catholic do that there is one God. But you think it is either Yahweh or Jesus.
The mentality that Jesus and his apostles uses is an AND mentality.
Jesus says "I AND the Father are one" - John 10:30.

agreed, Jesus and the father are one(jesus excluded the holy spirit). so is jesus the same person as the father ? The answer is no!. so in what way is jesus one with the father.
Jesus is one with the father in purpose, to do the will of the Father.
does this mean jesus is equal to the father? no!.
how do we know this? jesus said "the father is greater than I am" John 14:28
he told us he was sent by the father. John 17:3
he told us that the father is the only true God . John 17: 3
he told us that he was giving power and authority, to show that he did not have it before.
He told us that he only does what the father tells him to do.
And he finally told Mary that the father is his God .
We also know that the almighty God does not have companions!

can being one with the father still bring him to a position of being equal to the father?no
cus for these to be true one has to accept that the disciples will also be equal with the father in the future, when they share in the divine nature!
John 17:21-22
21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;…

these are just a few of the scriptures that can be quoted to show you that Jesus is not equal to the father, neither is he the almighty God.

you Ave not said anything on the scriptures I quoted earlier.

You say Jesus is a god meaning a lesser God than God the Father. You seem to think that Jesus is a lesser God but that is unbiblical.

heb 1:8-9
8 But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 "YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."

Jesus was anointed, Jesus was exalted, Jesus was giving a name, Jesus was told to sit at God's right side, Jesus was sent as a messenger, and yet you say he is equal to his God!

For we know that "God" (singular) created the heavens and the earth. - Gen 1:1.

And we also know that "God" said "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."

Since there can only be one Creator or "God" then the "us" in Gen 1:26 must refer to the Persons of the Holy Trinity (co-equal and co-eternal).
If the "us" in Gen 1:26 were other gods (lesser gods). Then why does God in Exodus 20:2-3 say:"I, the Lord, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. You shall not have other gods besides me.

jehovah, the father is our God. He is also the God of Jesus. He is the almighty God, the supreme being. We have no other almighty God apart from him.
The word "us" does not mean 3, and it does not mean they are equal.
as to creation, pls read proverbs 8: 22-31.

1 cor 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Jesus Followers = The early christians.

Quote one early christian who taught or wrote against Trinity

the apostle Peter.
1 peter 1:3.

dolphinheart:


not talking about topology bro, you said Mary pushed jesus to his first glorious deed
now did Jesus do any glorious deed before turning water into wine? e.g the selection of his disciples. is that a glorious deed or just an ordinary deed? and turning water unto wine at a wedding is more glorious.

Jesus said God gave him his brothers.



you gave a wrong summary of rev 12 and deliberately omitted some few things.



Bro, answering a question with a question will get us knowhere. just tell me you dnt want to answer the question and ill not ask you again. and if you feel you want to answer, pls do so in ur next reply. dnt forget to quote the verse.



now if Mary did not tell jesus what to do, why do you compare her to Eve who gave Adam the fruit. Again I tell you, all that Jesus christ did was from his father and Mary had no hand in it. Mary did what every other upright woman bringin up a child would have done.



again, I tell you, there sin was for disobedience, not disbelief.


who is talking about an adamic covenant here? but since you mentioned it, pls tell, what and where is the ark of the Adamic covenant since you say all covenant has ark.


good, can you now see where your topology is flawed?. Jesus is not the old Adam, Jesus is a new Adam, but not because of similarity in features or words. likewise Mary and the ark, it is flawed cus God did not dwell in the ark and God does not dwell in houses made by man, and Mary did not give us any covenant and neither was any covenant agreed on between Mary and God.

Ill tell you they where punished for disobedience ,not for lack of respect or reverence!

A.So how do you honour ur biological mother, that is different from how u honour her spiritually
B.how do you honor ur mother spiritually.
C.how is Mary your mother.( remember, the woman in rev 12 is not mary, and before you start saying we are jesus brothers, remember what jesus said about who is brothers and mothers where)




did God instruct you to make an image of Mary? answer : NO.!
pictures are taken from the appearance of the real person, they are not venerated and the puctures are not used for religious purposes. all pictures, statues ,images, used for religious worship purpose in the scriptures are there by God's direct command and instructions.
reading about the activities of someone you have never met is better than having a picture of that same per son, and that is exactly what the disciples did. They wrote about Mary, not make a statue of her.


pictures of relatives I've not met goes into the achieves. but I've seen humans and pagan worshipers put the image of those they venerate in special places.


give me an example and we will look at it.

pls show me.


Until, to and unto does not serve the same purpose.
"to" indicates direction, it does not have a time frame. she did not have a child till she died. full stop. looking or adding what happened to her after she died is a wrong understanding of that statement. and who is to say she wunderkind have a child if she is ressurected.


use the scriptures to explain or support the bold.
"Our father in heaven" jesus prayed!


very wrong.

9. There were not brothers of Jesus or children of Mary.
Jesus and the apostles spoke Aramaic/Hebrew and in that language and there was no word for cousin or nephew. They would have to say "son of my father's brother" and to avoid that they simply said kinsman or brother. The disciples who wrote the bible wrote it with that sense and even Matthew wrote his Gospel in Aramaic/Hebrew.
pls tell us, in what language was the english gospel translated from? aramaic/Hebrew or greek.
where the gospels written originally by the original writers in Greek?
is there a word for cousin in Greek?
If there is,then why did the disciples not use the greek word for cousin when writing an original book in Greek.

James in Gal 1:19 is called brother of the Lord but we all know that James the apostle was not his brother. Same as those written in Acts.
that is why you where specifically told that this James is the lords(jesus) brother. not James the disciple.

Also, we know that James the younger’s mother was named Mary. Look at the descriptions of the women standing beneath the cross:
"among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee" (Matt. 27:56);
"There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome" (Mark 15:40).
are you trying to say that the Mary that wanted to see jesus was his aunty and not his mother?
This james(the younger) is not jesus half brother. The scripture told us who his father was. Jesus half brothers believed in Jesus only after his death.

Then look at what John says: "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene" (John 19:25). If we compare these parallel accounts of the scene of the crucifixion, we see that the mother of James and Joseph must be the wife of Clopas. So far, so good.
you are right, but not the mother of James and Joseph mentioned Earlier in Jesus hometown.
you are trying to merge 3 different james together.

An argument against this, though, is that James is elsewhere (Matt. 10:3) described as the son of Alphaeus, which would mean this Mary, whoever she was, was the wife of both Clopas and Alphaeus. But Alphaeus and Clopas are the same person, since the Aramaic name for Alphaeus could be rendered in Greek either as Alphaeus or as Clopas. Another possibility is that Alphaeus took a Greek name similar to his Jewish name, the way that Saul took the name Paul.

So it’s probable that James the younger is the son of Mary and Clopas. The second-century historian Hegesippus explains that Clopas was the brother of Joseph, the foster-father of Jesus. James would thus be Joseph’s nephew and a cousin of Jesus, who was Joseph’s foster son.
pls direct us to where you got this info from, especially that of
historian Hegesippus.
The 3 differ James have different parents.
Wat of Simon and Judas.

10. Sinlessness.
Mary like all humans was bound to fall into sin. But God saved her from grace from the very creation of her and so she has been sinless right from her creation, birth till now.

stop passing unbiblical information, you have done enough damage with her elivation, now you want to make her perfect from birth. An act that cannot be achieved by humans through any means except jesus. you are now saying she had achieved it before jesus was even born.
you saw had to happen before jesus had to be born perfect, maybe you have prove that Mary was born the same way.

Look at it this way.
A woman on a boat is carrying a baby in her arms and then she trips and throws the babies as she falls. If one baby land in the water and I jump into the water and bring the baby out, I saved the baby.
If I catch the baby before he falls into the water, I still saved the baby.

All fell into sin from birth thanks to Adam (Original sin). And Christ saved them by his Death.
Christ saved Mary from falling into the sin as Noble And Perfect Gate which he was to pass through. God cannot stay near sin. His eyes are too holy to behold sin.
So Mary was born in sin before she was saved by Jesus!


Angel Gabriel said "Hail, full of grace".
Full of Grace = Empty of Sin.

In fact, the angel said Kecharitomene, which is a past perfect participle.
This means:
Full of Grace in the past and forever(continuously) full of Grace.
luke 1:28
New International version
...... went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! [/b]The Lord is with you."
new American Standard Bible
.... "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."
King James Bible
.....Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee:....


Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
28. highly favoured—a word only once used elsewhere (Eph 1:6, "made accepted": compare Lu 1:30, "Thou hast found favour with God." The mistake of the Vulgate's rendering, "full of grace," has been taken abundant advantage of by the Romish Church. As the mother of our Lord, she was the most "blessed among women" in external distinction; [b]but let them listen to the Lord's own words. "Nay, rather blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it." (See on [1537]Lu 11:27/b]

1. Calling disciples is not a miracle or a glorious deed. All rabbis and teachers called disciples. Even John the baptist had disciples.
turning water into wine is a miracle and a glorious deed.

2. Mary brought forth the person who undid what Adam did. Very similar to how Eve brought Adam to the tree. Just as eve was present at the tree where Adam sinned, Mary was present at the Cross where Jesus undid it.
Stop arguing against what i didn't say.

3. Bros, if Eve belived that eating the fruit would kill her, would she have eaten it? She disbelieved God and believed the devil. The disbelief led to disobedience.

4. Adamic covenant = Gen 1:27 - 30
27 So God created man in his image; in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number, fill the earth and subdue it, rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the sky, over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29 God said, "I have given you every seed-bearing plant which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree that bears fruit with seed. It will be for your food.
30 To every wild animal, to every bird of the sky, to everything that creeps along the ground, to everything that has the breath of life, I give every green plant for food." So it was.

Adam was the first man. Eve was created to be his companion and was to be the one to bring forth the children. Adam cannot increase by himself na, can he?
Eve carried the covenant(the children). Which is why she was the ark.


5. CATACOMB IMAGES.
Visit the link below
churchpop.com/2015/03/13/8-of-the-oldest-images-of-the-blessed-virgin-mary

6. how is the typology flawed?
St. Paul gave this typology in Romans 5:14 - 21. Jesus is the second and new adam. Typology shows similarities and contrasts. I already said this before. You are arguing against what i did not say. I never said Jesus is the same as Adam or that Mary is the same as Eve.

7. Disobedience and not irreverence or lack of respect? Seriously? How do you disobey and claim to respect at the same time?
When God told Moses to take off his sandal cause he was on holy ground, why did God make that statement? Because the ground was holy and was to be respected and reverenced. So if Moses had not taken off his sandal, would it have just been disobedience or disobedience by disrespecting and irreverencing the holy ground?

8.
A.So how do you honour ur biological mother, that is different from how u honour her spiritually
B.how do you honor ur mother spiritually.
C.how is Mary your mother.( remember, the woman in rev 12 is not mary, and before you start saying we are jesus brothers, remember what jesus said about who is brothers and mothers where)

Answers to these questions are simple.
Firstly, Mary is the WOMAN in Rev 12. That one is clear. If you think it isn't, give your own name of who the woman is.
Honouring her is done in different ways. One of which is calling her the way the angel did "KECHARITOMENE" or in english "Full Of Grace". Another is fulfilling the biblical prophecy in Luke 1:48 "..... people forever will call me blessed" by calling her Blessed Virgin Mary.
If you say you are a christian but not a brother of Jesus, then you are not sure of what you are.

8. Bros, to, unto, till and until when used to represent time (especially in the bible) do not mean that something different occured after. Bringing up the issue of giving birth after her ressurection is extremely funny and irrelevant to the subject matter.

9. Greek is the not the language of Israel, Hebrew is. In Hebrew, they for more than 1000 years (from Abraham to Jesus) have been calling all kinsmen "BROTHERS". After greek came in, they all continued in the same way. They kept calling kinsmen brother(Adelphos). They did not switch to a greek method of describing family.
Same way an ibo man would save himself stress and call anyone from his hometown "My Brother" or "Nwannem" instead of "He is the son of my grandfather's elder brother's first son."

10. "James in Gal 1:19 is called brother of the Lord but we all know that James the apostle was not his brother. Same as those written in Acts.
that is why you where specifically told that this James is the lords(jesus) brother. not James the disciple."

this is a grave contradiction.

The 12 disciples became the 12 Apostles. This James was a disciple that became an apostle that is being called the Lord's brother. So James the apostle was James the disciple.

There are only two James. James, the brother of John also calle James the greater. and James, son of Alphaeus/Clopas also called Brother of Jesus and James the younger.
"among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee" (Matt. 27:56)
This means the James in Matthew is James the younger. This is the same James the Apostle in Gal 1:19. The same person whom Jude said is his brother in Jude 1:1. Note Jude was one of the twelve.

11. Mary was saved before she was born. Jesus kept her from sin and so she was and is sinless by the Grace of God. "FULL OF GRACE" in a past perfect participle.

Mary was not born in sin. She was saved and sanctified before birth.

Before you say it is Catholic tradition, read the quotes from the protestant reformers on Mary:
servantofchrist.tripod.com/beholdthymother/id20.html

12. IN GREEK "KECHARITOMENE".

From Charitoo which means grace. Do a break down of the words used to make KECHARITOMENE and see if it means "FULL OF GRACE" or not. Biblehub will always include commentaries by Modern Protestants and reject Catholic ones. Do your research.

dolphinheart:

by early christians , you mean ur church right!?

rev 12
A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 she was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” a And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”
13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against[b] the rest of her offspring[/b]—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

pls explain the bolded parts, the ones you omitted from ur summary.


is Mary the ark of God's strength?


the scriptures has shown you his own view of the title and authority of the Queen Mother, a title not anointed or ordained by God. you now want to force such title on Mary, something she nor jesus ever told you to do.

The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes to offer to the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to arouse my anger.

Then all the men who knew that their wives were burning incense to other gods, along with all the women who were present—a large assembly—and all the people living in Lower and Upper Egypt, said to Jeremiah, 16 “We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD! 17 We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our ancestors, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. 18 But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine.”
19 The women added, “When we burned incense to the Queen of Heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did not our husbands know that we were making cakes impressed with her image and pouring out drink offerings to her?”
20 Then Jeremiah said to all the people, both men and women, who were answering him, 21 “Did not the LORD remember and call to mind the incense burned in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem by you and your ancestors, your kings and your officials and the people of the land? 22 When the LORD could no longer endure your wicked actions and the detestable things you did, your land became a curse and a desolate waste without inhabitants, as it is today. 23 Because you have burned incense and have sinned against the LORD and have not obeyed him or followed his law or his decrees or his stipulations, this disaster has come upon you, as you now see.”



is the use of the image of Mary part of ur worship or just a personal thing?
is the image blessed?
If the answers are yes, then you are breaking that law, cus you did not see any form! so dnt make any unistructed form!
do not make on ur own any Image!


dnt twist the scriptures. do we have similar physical features like God?


pls show us one of such carvings or images.


good, but dnt make one as part of ur worship or religious rites to God.
take an example from the isrealites who heeded the words of Deut 4: 15 and watched themselves very carefully. They did not make the image of moses, who was very very very important to them as part of their worship to God. all the images they made for worship was as a direct and recorded instruction from God. moreover those images where kept in a place where they (the general populace) cannot see them.

1. Lol. It is Jesus that founded the Catholic Church. Pastor Charles Taze Russell formed the JW. If you have a problem with the early Christians being Catholics, then you should complain to God who made it so.

And 1 Peter 1:3 does not in anyway contradict the Trinity. Of course, God is the Father Of Jesus (God the Son in his divine nature) and God of Jesus(Son of Man in his human nature).

Jesus called God his God and His Father because He had a human nature as well as a divine nature.

2. Explaining The Bolded Parts. Remember that it was a vision. Not a narration of how it would directly happen.

Mary was pregnant. It's normal that John would see her crying in pain. Remember Gen 3:16.

She gave birth to Jesus. The one who is to rule with an Iron scepter. Rev 19:15 - 16.

When the dragon was thrown down to earth, he pursued the WOMAN who had given birth to the Male Child.
Why did the dragon pursue her? To destroy her. How? By causing a separation between her and God her strength.
Did he do this? He tried and he got the first Eve but he could not get Mary the second Eve. Rev 12:14 - She was given two wings......

The rest of her children, those who keep God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus.
Mary is the mother of all Christians based on this verse, the "Behold thy mother" on the Cross and some other linked verses.

3. Ark of strength.
This is why reading in context is correct and drawing out verses will always be wrong.
Psalm 132: 6 - 8: The Ark of the Covenant is what is called the Ark of God's strength.

4. I have already shown from the bible how Mary is the Queen Mother because Jesus is the King.

If someone else bore a title given to him/her by a different set of people, does that mean all who bear the title are the same.

Jesus' title, King of kings, was used for the pagan Nebuchadnezzer. "You, O King, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory,..." (Daniel 2:37).

But Jesus is still called The King of Kings. Does it make the authors of the bible or Christians pagans for using that title?

5. The image of Mary is not part of worship. We only worship God especially in the Eucharist.

It is used as a reminder of events. Same as all other christian arts.

We did not see any form but we know they were humans and so we paint them with the human form we know they had. Same as those in the Catacombs.

We have similar physical features with God made flesh, Jesus. And our souls are also made in his image.

6. Images kept away from the people? What about those in the temple?
The images and designs Solomon put in the temple in 1 Kings 6, were they directly instructed by God? No!

Did God accept to be in the temple? Yes!

So your talk of direct oral or written command is not even applied in the bible.

dolphinheart:

1. how did you arrive at that?
2.does your translation use that name?


the bold says it all, the word and the earth do not have the same beginning.

is genesis not talking about the beginning of the creation of the heaven's and earth.?
The word is the one being said to have a beginning, it was with God! The verse did not say God had a beginning.
moreover, you have not told us what you understand by "in the beginning".


and you have refused to share that knowledge with us here.


I use the bible, I quote from the scriptures words and sentences that are directly related to what is being discussed. I do not use derived analogy, I tell you as the scripture says it.
You have not given a different, straightforward explanation on most of the scriptures I quoted.

you do not have one single example in the scriptures to show you that Jesus, the father and holy spirit come together to form God, that is why you us any trilogy based example outside the scriptures.


simply tell us what that name is! and how u use it to babtize.
can you see what I'm saying about derived analogy? you now inscribe "unity of essence cus you view they have one name. This is what the lack of example to surpport a doctrine can cause.


agreed, Jesus and the father are one(jesus excluded the holy spirit). so is jesus the same person as the father ? The answer is no!. so in what way is jesus one with the father.
Jesus is one with the father in purpose, to do the will of the Father.
does this mean jesus is equal to the father? no!.
how do we know this? jesus said "the father is greater than I am" John 14:28
he told us he was sent by the father. John 17:3
he told us that the father is the only true God . John 17: 3
he told us that he was giving power and authority, to show that he did not have it before.
He told us that he only does what the father tells him to do.
And he finally told Mary that the father is his God .
We also know that the almighty God does not have companions!

can being one with the father still bring him to a position of being equal to the father?no
cus for these to be true one has to accept that the disciples will also be equal with the father in the future, when they share in the divine nature!
John 17:21-22
21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;…

these are just a few of the scriptures that can be quoted to show you that Jesus is not equal to the father, neither is he the almighty God.

you Ave not said anything on the scriptures I quoted earlier.


heb 1:8-9
8 But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 "YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."

Jesus was anointed, Jesus was exalted, Jesus was giving a name, Jesus was told to sit at God's right side, Jesus was sent as a messenger, and yet you say he is equal to his God!


jehovah, the father is our God. He is also the God of Jesus. He is the almighty God, the supreme being. We have no other almighty God apart from him.
The word "us" does not mean 3, and it does not mean they are equal.
as to creation, pls read proverbs 8: 22-31.

1 cor 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.





the apostle Peter.
1 peter 1:3.

1. I am in hebrew/Aramaic = YHWH. Which was pronounced as Yahweh. It is written as YHWH because Hebrew did not have written vowels.

I should be asking you why you think Jehovah is God's name. Because I know very well that even as at the 6th century A.D. There was no language that had J as an alphabet. So how did the Israelites write Jehovah as God's name?
Do you even know where the word Jehovah came from?
Catholic monk around 1270. Do your research. Despite this fact, The Catholic Church still says that God's name is Yahweh.

2. Jesus is God.
Jesus is not God by Glory. He is God by nature. The disciples sharing in divine nature will not make them God, that is true. But then Jesus was not a man who became God, He was God who assumed flesh.

John 1:1 ends with "kai Theos en ho Logos". Which means God was the word. How does your a god fit into this sentence?

All the verses you quote show Jesus directing people to God. None of them says Jesus is God.
You say Jesus is Lord (Adonai). Then say Jesus who is Adonai is not God. The bible tells us clearly that the Lord is Our God.

If you say God was alone in Genesis. Then when God said "Let us make man.....". The us was the 3 persons in One God.

Else, you will be saying that there is God and other gods and so they were the ones God was referring to when he said US. Then why did God say "Thou shall have on other gods besides me" when He knew other gods (Like Jesus according to you) existed and were with him.

John 17:21-----
"21That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me."

Jesus never said that we may become one. He said they may become one as we are one.

Truly, all disciples are one in the sense that They have become One Body with One Lord through One Baptism. How does that contradict the trinity?

All your quotes do not contradict the Trinity at all.

Read the following
Phillipians 2:6, John 5:8, John 10 : 30 - 33. Again, The AND mentality. The Father is God, the Son is also God and so is the Spirit.

3. Jesus said baptize in the NAME not name. So if Jesus is not God and the Holy Spirit is just a force as you JWs say, why would God share his name with them?

Jolliano:


1. Calling disciples is not a miracle or a glorious deed. All rabbis and teachers called disciples. Even John the baptist had disciples.
turning water into wine is a miracle and a glorious deed.

Glorious. Deed:
Something that is glorious is very beautiful and impressive. (=magnificent)
If you describe something as glorious, you are emphasizing that it is wonderful and it makes you feel very happy.

You might view jesus turning water into wine as his first glorious deed cus of your need to glorify mary, but his disciples knew better

John 1:47
47 When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, “Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.”
48 “How do you know me?”
Nathanael asked.
Jesus answered, “I saw you
while you were still under the
fig tree before Philip called
you.”
49 Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.”
50 Jesus said, “You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree.
You will see greater things
than that.”

A glorious thing happened there in the disciples selection, cus that formed the basis of christianity as this disciples played a vital role in the spread of the good news. I'm appreciative of these glorious deed or actions done by jesus.
Through the actions of jesus during the selection of his disciples, he could say these to his father "As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.".
Jesus turning water into wine was the first sign or miracle through which jesus revealed his glory, but it was not his first glorious deed!. Glorious deeds is not being defined or neccessary accompanied by miracles.
You compare jesus selection of his disciples to other teachers selection of disciples, but you ommit their miracles and signs, why?

In addition ill repeat what I said earlier:

"now if Mary did not tell Jesus
what to do, why do you compare her to Eve who gave
Adam the fruit. Again I tell you,
all that Jesus christ did was
from his father and Mary had no hand in it. Mary did what every other upright woman bringin up a child would have done."

2. Mary brought forth the person who undid what Adam did. Very similar to how Eve brought Adam to the tree. Just as eve was present at the tree where Adam sinned, Mary was present at the Cross where Jesus undid it.
Stop arguing against what i didn't say.

Mary did so because she was favoured to do so. Can't you see that after jesus birth, everything or message from God that had to do with jesus survival as a child was done through the man, the father Joseph? This is in line with Gods arrangement of family and Christian headship. You are trying to change Gods arrangement through the elevation of mary.

All these explanations is not needed, what I'm asking is who is the woman that God was talking about in Gen 3: 15-17:?

"And I will cause hostility between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her
offspring.
He will strike your head, and you will strike his heel.”
16 Then he said to the woman,
“I will sharpen the pain of
your pregnancy, and in pain you will give birth.
And you will desire to control your husband, but he will rule over you.

Pls tell us with an explanation of the bolded parts.

. Bros, if Eve belived that eating the fruit would kill her, would she have eaten it? She disbelieved God and believed the devil. The disbelief led to disobedience.

She was punished for disobedience!
A lot of people commit fornication today knowing fully well that Gods purnishment will come on them. They did not disbelief gods word, yet they still break it.

Mary is a seed of eve.

4. Adamic covenant = Gen 1:27 - 30
27 So God created man in his image; in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number, fill the earth and subdue it, rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the sky, over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29 God said, "I have given you every seed-bearing plant which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree that bears fruit with seed. It will be for your food.
30 To every wild animal, to every bird of the sky, to everything that creeps along the ground, to everything that has the breath of life, I give every green plant for food." So it was.Adam was the first man. Eve was created to be his companion and was to be the one to bring forth the children. Adam cannot increase by himself na, can he?
Eve carried the covenant(the children). Which is why she was the ark.

Yep you are right, and eve stopped having children when she broke the covenant just as the isrealites stopped receiving blessings right?
And all women are arks cus they all have the ability to carry offsprings.

The ability to carry the mans seed after conception was giving to all women, a mother could have a son cus she has the same human makeup as eve. It is Gods arrangement and it does not mean that eve was the ark.
As the ark and the covenant, including its rules and laws was for all isrealites , so also was the ability to spread and fill the earth for man and woman, not for woman alone and definitely not for eve alone. To use these gift given to women to mean eve was the ark is wrong. The scriptures never said so.
Remember, eve was created from adam!

5. CATACOMB IMAGES.
Visit the link below
churchpop.com/2015/03/13/8-of-the-oldest-images-of-the-blessed-virgin-mary

Ill reply these in my next post.

[/quote]6. how is the typology flawed?
St. Paul gave this typology in Romans 5:14 - 21. Jesus is the second and new adam. Typology shows similarities and contrasts. I already said this before. You are arguing against what i did not say. I never said Jesus is the same as Adam or that Mary is the same as Eve.[/quote]
The similarities between jesus and adam is fully explained and supported by the scriptures. The reasons for the similarities are giving in the context. Your derived topology does not follow scriptural arrangements, neither does the scripture support ur views outside the fact that some similar events happened. There are a lot of similar events in the scriptures. Using them the way you do to elevate mary will totally distort what the scriptures is saying.

7. Disobedience and not irreverence or lack of respect? Seriously? How do you disobey and claim to respect at the same time?

you can disobey and respect someone at the same time. Mishark and abednego did it.

When God told Moses to take off his sandal cause he was on holy ground, why did God make that statement?
Because the ground was holy and was to be respected and reverenced. So if Moses had not taken off his sandal, would it have just been disobedience or disobedience by disrespecting and irreverencing the holy ground?

You just supported my view with the bold. If the instruction has not been giving,moses would not have been purnished if he wore his sandals despite that place being a holy ground. So if the instruction was not giving and moses had worn his sandals into the holy ground, would he have shown irrelevance and disrespect to the holy ground ? The issue of disrespect would not have been mentioned.

8.
A.So how do you honour ur biological mother, that is different from how u honour her spiritually
B.how do you honor ur mother spiritually.
C.how is Mary your mother.( remember, the woman in rev 12 is not mary, and before you start saying we are jesus brothers, remember what jesus said about who is brothers and mothers where)

Answers to these questions are simple.
Firstly, Mary is the WOMAN in Rev 12. That one is clear. If you think it isn't, give your own name of who the woman is.
Honouring her is done in different ways. One of which is calling her the way the angel did "KECHARITOMENE" or in english "Full Of Grace". Another is fulfilling the biblical prophecy in Luke 1:48 "..... people forever will call me blessed" by calling her Blessed Virgin Mary.
If you say you are a christian but not a brother of Jesus, then you are not sure of what you are.

You have seen that you stylishly refused to answer any of the questions but tried to focus on ur view of Mary.
First, ill tell you who that woman in rev 12 is when you answer the 3 questions I asked you on rev 12.
Second, I've shown you that mary was not everly a virgin, as she had other children, both male and female. Other peoples children would not have been moving with mary so frequently mentioned in the scriptures if she had not been their biological mother. They would have been with their own mother, afterall they did not believe in jesus untill after his ressurection.

Thirdly, mary is highly favoured as the scriptures tell me and ill call her "mary, a woman blessed by God"

8. Bros, to, unto, till and until when used to represent time (especially in the bible) do not mean that something different occured after.

It means that the event or situation changed the moment after the reason for it remaining constant got fufilled. That Joseph did not know his wife until his wife gave birth means that the situation changed after his wife gave birth and thus then knew his wife. God allows sexual relationship between husband and wife, and Joseph and marys marriage was not an exception, neither was there any instruction for them not to enjoy sexual relations with each other. So dnt formulate one for them.

The question I asked about jesus sitting at the right hand of God untill his enemies have been put under his feet has not been answered by you

Bringing up the issue of giving birth after her ressurection is extremely funny and irrelevant to the subject matter.

You are the one who asked if she could give birth after death

9. Greek is the not the language of Israel, Hebrew is. In Hebrew, they for more than 1000 years (from Abraham to Jesus) have been calling all kinsmen "BROTHERS". After greek came in, they all continued in the same way. They kept calling kinsmen brother(Adelphos). They did not switch to a greek method of describing family.
Same way an ibo man would save himself stress and call anyone from his hometown "My Brother" or "Nwannem" instead of "He is the son of my grandfather's elder brother's first son."

The new testament scriptures was written in greek and there is a greek work for cousin. If those brothers where cousins, the writers of the greek scriptures would have used the greek word for cousin.
For example a yoruba man knows the word "oju" can refer to both face and eye. The context determines which is which. But I'd that yoruba man is going to write in English, he will use his knowledge or concept to determine which is which and write it down accordingly. He will not continue to always write down eye when the context is reffering to face!

Now is there an example of these when it comes to brothers and cousins?
Did the Jews who wrote the scriptures used the greek word for cousin?

Col 4:10
My fellow prisoner Aristarchus sends you his greetings, as does Mark, the cousin of
Barnabas. (You have received instructions about him; if he comes to you, welcome him.)

Even the writer of Luke used the greek word for relative when refering to mary and elizabeth.

So they knew these greek words and knew when to use then, but at no time was it used for jesus half brothers. This shows they where actually jesus real half brothers who where (in most cases in was mentioned) always with their real mother , mary , who is also the real mother of jesus.

10. "James in Gal 1:19 is called brother of the Lord but we all know that James the apostle was not his brother. Same as those written in Acts.
that is why you where specifically told that this James is the lords(jesus) brother. not James the disciple."

this is a grave contradiction.

The 12 disciples became the 12 Apostles. This James was a disciple that became an apostle that is being called the Lord's brother. So James the apostle was James the disciple.

There are only two James. James, the brother of John also calle James the greater. and James, son of Alphaeus/Clopas also called Brother of Jesus and James the younger.
"among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee" (Matt. 27:56)
This means the James in Matthew is James the younger. This is the same James the Apostle in Gal 1:19. The same person whom Jude said is his brother in Jude 1:1. Note Jude was one of the twelve.

For space purpose, I'm going to reply to this in My next post.

11. Mary was saved before she was born. Jesus kept her from sin and so she was and is sinless by the Grace of God. "FULL OF GRACE" in a past perfect participle.

Mary was not born in sin. She was saved and sanctified before birth.

Before you say it is Catholic tradition, read the quotes from the protestant reformers on Mary:
servantofchrist.tripod.com/beholdthymother/id20.html

12. IN GREEK "KECHARITOMENE".

From Charitoo which means grace. Do a break down of the words used to make KECHARITOMENE and see if it means "FULL OF GRACE" or not. Biblehub will always include commentaries by Modern Protestants and reject Catholic ones. Do your research.

At bold , pls explain how you can be saved before birth.

Greek word charitoo:
Definition
1. to make graceful
a. charming, lovely, agreeable
2. to peruse with grace, compass with
favour
3. to honour with blessings
...........................

to give graciously, to show acts of kindness by freely giving; (n.) one highly favored; see also {5921}
Definition: to favor, visit with favor, to make an object of favor, to gift,, Eph. 1:6;
pass. to be visited with free favor, be an object of gracious visitation, Lk. 1:28*

https://billmounce.com/greek-dictionary/charitoo
.......................


χαριτόω charitóō, khar-ee-to'-o; from G5485; to grace, i.e. indue with special honor:—make accepted, be highly favoured.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5487
............................
Some Translations that used favoured in Luke 1:26

1.New International Version
2.New Living Translation
3.English Standard Version
4.Berean Study Bible
5.Berean Literal Bible
6.New American Standard Bible
7.King James Bible
8.Holman Christian Standard Bible
9.International Standard Version
10.GOD'S WORD® Translation
11.New American Standard 1977
12. King James 2000 Bible
13.American King James Version
14.American Standard Version
15.Darby Bible Translation
16.English Revised Version
17.Webster's Bible Translation
18.weymouth New Testament
19.World English Bible
20.Young's Literal Translation

Does the angel greeting mary with " full of grace" mean she was born perfect without sin? . The scriptures never said so nor implied so.

Mary is not perfect, she did not understand the greeting.!
Luke 1:29
"Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might
be."

The angel now told her what the greeting meant
Luke 1:30
But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.

Mary was now told what that favor is
Luke 1:31-33
You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be
great and will be called the Son of the Most High...........

There is no mention in the scriptures that mary had the same conception that jesus had and jesus had to be concieved that way so as to not to allow the seed of adam (an imperfect sinful seed) to be passed on to jesus.

Mary is from adam and thus inherited sin from birth. The scriptures does not indicate otherwise and ur use of derived analogy does not mean mary was without sin.

Romans 3: 21-24 totally shows the doctrine that mary is without sin as false.

”But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets
testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that
came by Christ Jesus.

Rom 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--

Mary called God her savior , a man without sin does not need a savior.
There is no other way at which mankind can be saved except through jesus ransom sacrifice. Therfore mary could not have been born without sin before jesus ransome sacrifice.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. (1 John 1:8-10)
This same words apply to mary

@ jolliano

5. CATACOMB IMAGES.
Visit the link below
churchpop.com/2015/03/13/8-of-the-oldest-images-of-the-blessed-virgin-mary

A statement from that webpage reads:

"Just like we don’t know what Jesus looked like, we don’t know what His mother Mary looked like either."

So the question is , how did you now get the pictures and images of mary and jesus. Did they just formulate one and you adopted it?

Not counting the many, many imagesthat people claim were painted by St. Luke, the earliest image we have of Mary is from the 2nd century, and you can’t exactly make out the details of her face (see the first image below).
In any case, it’s still fascinating to see how Christians depicted Mary in the first few centuries of the faith. Pay attention to who she’s almost always depicted with…
Enjoy!
1) Madonna and Child in the Catacombs – 2nd century
via histo ryofinformation.com
Located in the Catacomb of Priscilla in Rome, Mary appears to be nursing the infant Jesus on her lap. It is dated to around A.D. 150.
[See also: 13 Beautiful Non-White Depictions of the Blessed Virgin Mary]

(* represents my view)
* this picture was constructed 150 years after the event occured . The early disciples and apostles did not know about it, did not do it nor subscribe to it.

2) Madonna and Child With the Magi Bringing Him Gifts – 3rd century
Giovanni Dall’Orto / Wikimedia Commons
This is a picture of a cast of a sarcophagus that is in the Vatican museums. It shows the scene of the magi adoring the Christ child, who is held by his mother Mary. It is dated to the 3rd century.
3) Protectress of the Roman People – 5th century
Public Domain / Wikimedia Commons
The oldest and most important image of Our Lady in Rome, legend has it that it was one of the many icons painted by St. Luke, though historians date its original composition to the 5th century.
4) Madonna and Child Enthroned Among the Angels and Saints – 6th century
Public Domain / Wikimedia Commons
This image can be found at St. Catherine’s Monastery near Mt. Sinai and is dated to the 6th century. Around Mary and Jesus are St. Theodor of Amasea, St. George, and two angels. Notice also the hand at the top of the image (God the Father?).
[See also: 31 Beautiful Paintings of Mary Nursing the Baby Jesus]
5) A Nativity Icon – 7th century
via pravmir.com
This is another icon found at the monastery at Mt. Sinai, and it is dated to the 7th century.
6) Agiosoritissa (Mother of God) – 7th century
via communio.stblogs.org
Originally from Constantinople, this 7th century icon is currently kept at the Santa Maria del Rosario a Monte Mario in Rome.
7) Cover of Copy of the Gospels – 8th-9th century
Public Domain / Wikimedia Commons
This is the ivory cover of a copy of the Gospelscreated in Germany in the late 8th and early 9th century.
[See also: 7 Church Fathers on that Profound Insight of Mary as the New Eve]
Madonna and Child Icon – 9th century
Public Domain / Wikimedia Commons
This icon is currently kept in the Art Museum of Georgia (the country), and is dated to the 9th century.

* all these images are images formulated by the state church and its adherents.

The disciples did not bring up or make up any images or pictures of mary. They did not use the image in any veneration or part of worship to God. They where very careful as the scriptures warned.

10. "James in Gal 1:19 is called brother of the Lord but we all know that James the apostle was not his brother. Same as those written in Acts.
that is why you where specifically told that this James is the lords(jesus) brother. not James the disciple."

this is a grave contradiction.

The 12 disciples became the 12 Apostles. This James was a disciple that became an apostle that is being called the Lord's brother. So James the apostle was James the disciple.

There are only two James. James, the brother of John also calle James the greater. and James, son of Alphaeus/Clopas also called Brother of Jesus and James the younger.
"among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee" (Matt. 27:56)
This means the James in Matthew is James the younger. This is the same James the Apostle in Gal 1:19. The same person whom Jude said is his brother in Jude 1:1. Note Jude was one of the twelve.

1st james
James, Son of Zebedee; brother of John and one of the 12 apostles of Jesus Christ. His mother, it seems, was Salome, as may be noted by comparing two accounts of the same event.
One mentions “the mother of the sons of Zebedee,” the other calls her “Salome.”
Matt 27:55,56
Mark 15 :40,41

The next year, 31 C.E., when
Jesus designated 12 of his
disciples to be apostles, James was one of the group selected.
Mark 3:13-19
Luke 6:12-16
James is always mentioned along with his brother John, and in the majority of instances he is mentioned
first. This may indicate he was
the older of the two.

James evidently died in 44 C.E.
Herod Agrippa I had him
executed with the sword. He was the first of the 12 apostles to die as a martyr.

second james
Another apostle of Jesus
Christ and son of Alphaeus.

Matt 10:2,3:
"The names of the 12 apostles are these: First, Simon, the one called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebʹe·dee and John his brother; Philip and Bar·tholʹo·mew; Thomas and
Matthew the tax collector;
James the son of Al·phaeʹus;

Mark 3:18
Luke 6:15

Acts 1:13:
"When they arrived, they went
up into the upper room where
they were staying. There were
Peter as well as John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bar·tholʹo·mew and Matthew, James the son of Al·phaeʹus, and Simon the zealous one, and Judas the son of James."

It is generally believed and
quite probable that Alphaeus
was the same person as Clopas, in which event James’ mother was Mary, the same Mary that was “the mother of James the Less and of Joses.” john 19:25
Mark 15;40

He may have been called James the Less because of being either smaller in physical stature or younger in age than the other apostle James, the son of Zebedee.

3rd james
James, Son of Joseph and Mary, and half brother of Jesus.

Mark 6:3
Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't
this Mary's son and the
brother of James, Joseph,
Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
These later sons of Mary explain why Jesus was called her “firstborn son” (Matthew 1:25
Luke 2:7:
"and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them.

The attempts by some to make these cousins and not brothers of Jesus are ill-advised attempts to deny scripture. (to be examined in my next post)

Gal 1:19
I saw none of the other apostles--only James, the. Lord's brother

Although not an apostle, it
was evidently this James who
was an overseer of the Christian congregation at Jerusalem.
Acts 12:17
"Peter motioned with his hand for them to be quiet and described how the Lord had
brought him out of prison. “Tell
James and the other brothers
and sisters about this,” he said, and then he left for another place.

He may have been next to Jesus in age, being the first named of Mary’s four natural-born sons: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas.

It appears that during Jesus’
ministry James was well
acquainted with his brother’s
activity, but though apparently not opposed, he was not one of the disciples and followers of Christ.
Luke 8:19
"Now Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd.

John 2:12
"After this he and his mother and his brothers and his disciples went down to
Ca·perʹna·um, but they did not
stay there many days.

Matt 12:46-60

He was probably with his nonbelieving brothers when they urged Jesus to go boldly up to the Festival of Tabernacles, at a time when the rulers of the Jews were seeking to kill him.

However, after the death of
Jesus and prior to Pentecost
33 C.E., James was assembled
for prayer together with his
mother, brothers, and the
apostles in an upper chamber in Jerusalem.
Acts 1:13,14
" When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying.
Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. 14 They all joined together constantly in
prayer, along with the women
and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.

It was evidently to this James that the resurrected Jesus appeared personally, so convincing this onetime nonbeliever that He was indeed the Messiah. This reminds us of Jesus’ personal appearance to Paul.

"After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. But last of all he appeared also to me as if to one born prematurely."

Thereafter James became a
prominent member and,
apparently, an “apostle” of the
Jerusalem congregation.

Thus, at Paul’s first visit with the Jerusalem brothers (about 36 C.E.), he says he spent 15 days with Peter but “saw no one else of the apostles, only James the brother
of the Lord.”
Peter, after his miraculous release from prison, instructed the brothers at John Mark’s home, “Report these things to James and the brothers,” thereby indicating James’ prominence.

That it was this ‘brother of Jesus’ who wrote the book of James, and not one of the apostles by the same name (either the son of Zebedee or the son of Alphaeus), seems to be indicated at the beginning of his letter. There the writer identifies himself as “a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,” rather than as an apostle. In a similar fashion his brother Judas (Jude)
also identified himself as “a slave of Jesus Christ, but a brother of James.”

My next post will be a re- examination of the word "brother".

@ jolliano

Jesus brothers.

Brothers of Jesus. The four Gospels, the Acts of Apostles, and two of Paul’s letters mention “the Lord’s brothers,” “the brother of the Lord,” “his brothers,” “his sisters,” naming four of the “brothers”: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas.
Mt 12:46; 13:55, 56;
Mr 3:31;
Lu 8:19;
Joh 2:12;
Ac 1:14;
1Co 9:5;
Ga 1:19.

The majority of Bible scholars accept the cumulative evidence that Jesus had at least four brothers and two sisters and that all were offspring of Joseph and Mary by natural means after the miraculous birth of Jesus.
The arbitrary notions that these brothers of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former marriage, or by levirate marriage with Joseph’s sister-in-law, must be classified as fictitious, since there is no factual confirmation or even a suggestion to this effect in the Scriptures. The claim that “brother” (a·del·phosʹ) here means “cousin” (a·ne·psi·osʹ) is a theoretical contention, the
invention of which is credited to Jerome, and dates back no
earlier than 383 C.E. Not only does Jerome fail to cite any
support for his newborn hypothesis but in later writings he wavers in his opinions and
even expresses misgivings about his “cousin theory.”
J. B. Lightfoot states that “St
Jerome pleaded no traditional
authority for his theory, and that therefore the evidence in its favour is to be sought in
Scripture alone. I have examined the scriptural evidence, and the . . . combination of difficulties . . . more than counterbalances these secondary arguments in
its favour, and in fact must lead to its rejection.”—St. Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians, London, 1874, p. 258.

In the Greek Scriptures where
the account involved a nephew
or cousin, a·del·phosʹ is not
used. Rather, the relationship is explained, as “the son of Paul’s sister” or “Mark the cousin [a·ne·psi·osʹ] of Barnabas.”
Ac 23:16;
Col 4:10

In Luke 21:16 the Greek words syg·ge·nonʹ (relatives, such as cousins) and a·del·phonʹ (brothers) both occur, showing that the terms are not used loosely or indiscriminately in the Greek Scriptures.

When, during Jesus’ ministry,
“his brothers were, in fact, not
exercising faith in him,” this
would certainly rule out their
being his brothers in a spiritual
sense.
Joh 7:3-5

Jesus contrasted these fleshly brothers with his disciples,
,who believed in him and who were his spiritual brothers.
Mt 12:46-50;
Mr 3:31-35;
Lu 8:19-21.

This lack of faith on the part of his fleshly brothers prohibits identifying them with apostles of the same names: James, Simon, Judas; they are explicitly distinguished from Jesus’ disciples.— . Joh 2:12

The relationship these fleshly brothers of Jesus had with his mother Mary also indicates they were her children rather than more distant relatives. They are usually mentioned in association with her.

Statements to the effect that Jesus was Mary’s “firstborn”
(Lu 2:7) , and that Joseph “had
no intercourse with her until she gave birth to a son,” also support the view that Joseph and Mary had other children.(Mt 1:25)

Even Nazarene neighbors
recognized and identified Jesus as “the brother of James and Joseph and Judas and Simon,” adding, “And his sisters are here with us, are they not?”— .
Mr 6:3

After Jesus’ resurrection his
fleshly brothers changed their
doubting attitude, for they were present with their mother and the apostles when assembled for prayer after Jesus’ ascension.
This suggests that they
were present also at the
outpouring of the holy spirit on
the day of Pentecost.

Jolliano:


1. Lol. It is Jesus that founded the Catholic Church. Pastor Charles Taze Russell formed. the JW. If you have a problem with the early Christians being Catholics, then you should complain to God who made it so.

I asked a simple question, let's not digress even we dnt want to answer.
The church with political Affliation and power, a church that romanced with the rulers of the present system of things is not practised by the early christians, nor founded by jesus.

And 1 Peter 1:3 does not in anyway contradict the Trinity. Of course, God is the Father Of Jesus (God the Son in his divine nature) and God of Jesus(Son of Man in his human nature).

?!
What part of my post is this reply based on.
This brings out the issue, why can't you seperate and quote the particular statement of mine you are responding to, like I do urs. Its easier and better so that everyone can follow the discussion, and know what you are responding to.

Jesus called God his God and His Father because He had a human nature as well as a divine nature.

So jesus in wateva format you put him, had a God!
He also mentioned who that God is, who incidentally is the one that gave him all the power and authority and things and words he did on earth. He did not do anything except what the father told him to do.
Pls tell, using the scriptures, what his divine nature on earth was and what that nature did on earth.?
Second question, according to your doctrine, is the father still jesus' God and superior to jesus now?

2. Explaining The Bolded Parts. Remember that it was a vision. Not a narration of how it would directly happen.

Mary was pregnant. It's normal that John would see her crying in pain. Remember Gen 3:16.

1. John knew who mary was and how she looked like, john did not say the woman is mary.
2.mary was pregnant! , who got her pregnant. Remember this vision started with the woman in heaven and not on earth!
So when mary got to heaven, she got pregnant again?! And by whom?

"A great sign appeared in
heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 she was pregnant and cried out in
pain as she was about to
give birth.

Did mary give birth to jesus in heaven or on earth as you are trying to imply below?

So in ur reply pls tell us.
A. Who got mary pregnant again.
B. If that pregnancy is in heaven or earth.

She gave birth to Jesus. The one who is to rule with an Iron scepter. Rev 19:15 - 16.

Rev 1:1
The revelation from Jesus
Christ, which God gave him to show his servants [u]what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Is a sign as shown to john in the vision something that happened in the past or that will happen in the future cus as at the time of this revelation jesus already in heaven?. In fact he was the one revealing through an angel this revelation giving to him by his God.
Was jesus now born again by mary, first on earth and then in heaven? So mary had birth pangs a second time in heaven for jesus?
I thought you said mary was not born with sin.? Automatically meaning she is perfect and thus jehovahs proclamation on eve and child bearing does not apply to her. How come you are now mixing everything up!
If you reply, pls do not ommit any of my questions.

When the dragon was thrown down to earth, he pursued the WOMAN who had given birth to the Male Child.
Why did the dragon pursue her? To destroy her. How? By causing a separation between her and God her strength.
Did he do this? He tried and he got the first Eve but he could not get Mary the second Eve. Rev 12:14 - She was given two wings......

First, Mary was not the second eve.
They are both women like every other women.
They both had children like every woman is supposed to.
That eve married the first adam and mary gave birth to the last adam does not mean mary is the second eve.
All the actions of jesus was arranged by the father and mary had no hand in it after jesus birth. So her presence as at the time jesus was killed is just because of the fact that she gave birth to him. Something any other good woman at that time will do. If she was not present, it would not have lessened or changes the effect and importance of the event.

Secondly, when did mary come back to earth again ? That she was now being pursued on earth?

The rest of her children, those who keep God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus.
Mary is the mother of all Christians based on this verse, the "Behold thy mother" on the Cross and some other linked verses.[/b]
Jesus was handling the care of his mother to a beloved and trusted disciple. Even at death, he took care of his responsibility as a man and as the first born!
And that is why john took her home!

[quote]3. Ark of strength.
This is why reading in context is correct and drawing out verses will always be wrong.
Psalm 132: 6 - 8: The Ark of the Covenant is what is called the Ark of God's strength.

Simple question :is Mary the ark of God's strength?

4. I have already shown from the bible how Mary is the Queen Mother because Jesus is the King.[/b]
You have shown from the bible how you arrived at that title for mary, I have shown you from the scriptures Gods view of that title, position and authority.
The position and title was giving by Solomon, and we saw the end result of it.
The scriptures made other mentions of women who bore such title and it did was not in a good light. The scriptura deliberately mentioned such women in relation to such title to show you its view on it and that it was not a divine arrangement.
God sanctioned a king for isreal and even anointed them, but not a queen mother.
In God arrangement of headship, the woman does not hold any authority over the man.
This arrangement is ever present both in the mosaic and instructions giving to christians. So I dnt know why you are elevating mary to a position and title that does not have jehovahs blessings or approval. A title that was created by a human and shown to have bad bad consequences .
Remember what Jeremiah said, they have abandoned God, that is why they have a queen of heaven.

[quote]If someone else bore a title given to him/her by a different set of people, does that mean all who bear the title are the same.

Absolutely not, I'm just showing you where you got that title from. It did not originate with God. Gods position on mary's level on authority had been made clear in the event that happened immediately after she got pregnant and Married. The moment she got married , all divine correspondence on jesus was with Joseph and no longer with mary, to support the divine approved arrangement that a man is the head of the woman.!
God, jesus , the disciples, the angels never gave mary that human title or position, you guys should not have done so!

Jesus' title, King of kings, was used for the pagan Nebuchadnezzer. "You, O King, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory,..." (Daniel 2:37).

But Jesus is still called The King of Kings. Does it make the authors of the bible or Christians pagans for using that title?

Can you not see it!?
Can you not see that jesus was giving such title!?
Can you not see that he has divine right to such title?
Can you not see that to avoid confusion and infusion like the case of the queen mother, jesus title/position where mentioned several times in the scriptures?
Do you not see the reasons accompanying those titles.?
Does this not show you that it is wrong to give a title to someone that is not divinely recommended and such title is not mentioned with such person?
You are doing what the scriptures has shown in bad light.!

5. The image of Mary is not part of worship. We only worship God especially in the Eucharist.

It is used as a reminder of events. Same as all other christian arts.

So the words written down about mary where not good enough for you to use to remember mary abi!
Did those images tell you who she is or the things she did?

I look at the real picture of azikwe and it does not tell me the things I need to know in other to hold the guy in high position.
The use of images to remember important people is a practise long used by the pagans, and you can't find such use by christians who lived during the time of the apostles.! These pagan idea creeped into the state church.

The isrealites did not remember their prophets with images, the disciples did not do it, but the pagans did it!

We did not see any form but we know they were humans and so we paint them with the human form we know they had. Same as those in the Catacombs.

So you decided to formulate a false face for mary to remember mary. If you bring a picture of any woman and tell me to use that picture to remember my mom, I no go gree, and neither will you. Or will you!?

We have similar physical features with God made flesh, Jesus. And our souls are also made in his image.

Jesus was made like us, that's the reason for the physical features. You claim the holy spirit is God too. Pls tell what form the holy spirit had, and if humans are made in such form too. Pls dnt fail to do so.

Secondly, how is our soul made in jesus image? Pls use scripture.

6. Images kept away from the people? What about those in the temple?
The images and designs Solomon put in the temple in 1 Kings 6, were they directly instructed by God? No!

Did God accept to be in the temple? Yes!

So your talk of direct oral or written command is not even applied in the bible.

1. Be specific, which images are you reffering to that can be seen by the people.
2. God does not reside in man made structures.
Acts 7:48,49
“However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says: “ ‘Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool.
What kind of house will you build for me? says the Lord.
Or where will my resting place be?

3.everything Solomon did in relation to the building of the temple, was done by divine instruction, he did not add his own.
1 kings 6
"the eleventh year in the month of Bul, the eighth month, the temple was finished in all its details according to its specifications. He had spent seven years building it.

1 chr 28:11,12
" Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries
thereof, and of the upper
chambers thereof, and of the
inner parlours thereof, and of
the place of the mercy seat,
And the pattern of all that he
had by the spirit, of the courts
of the house of the LORD, and
of all the chambers round
about, of the treasuries of the
house of God, and of the
treasuries of the dedicated
things:.....
All this, said David, the LORD made me understand in writing by his hand upon me, even all the works of this pattern.

Even the format for the services in the temple was written down. So that nobody can come in the future and say he/she has divine influence/oral tradition and forcefully change things and create new images.

I will reply you today or tomorrow. I've been and still am very busy. I can't type long responses now.

dolphinheart:

Glorious. Deed:
Something that is glorious is very beautiful and impressive. (=magnificent)
If you describe something as glorious, you are emphasizing that it is wonderful and it makes you feel very happy.

You might view jesus turning water into wine as his first glorious deed cus of your need to glorify mary, but his disciples knew better

John 1:47
47 When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, “Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.”
48 “How do you know me?”
Nathanael asked.
Jesus answered, “I saw you
while you were still under the
fig tree before Philip called
you.”
49 Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.”
50 Jesus said, “You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree.
You will see greater things
than that.”

A glorious thing happened there in the disciples selection, cus that formed the basis of christianity as this disciples played a vital role in the spread of the good news. I'm appreciative of these glorious deed or actions done by jesus.
Through the actions of jesus during the selection of his disciples, he could say these to his father "As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.".
Jesus turning water into wine was the first sign or miracle through which jesus revealed his glory, but it was not his first glorious deed!. Glorious deeds is not being defined or neccessary accompanied by miracles.
You compare jesus selection of his disciples to other teachers selection of disciples, but you ommit their miracles and signs, why?

In addition ill repeat what I said earlier:

"now if Mary did not tell Jesus
what to do, why do you compare her to Eve who gave
Adam the fruit. Again I tell you,
all that Jesus christ did was
from his father and Mary had no hand in it. Mary did what every other upright woman bringin up a child would have done."



Mary did so because she was favoured to do so. Can't you see that after jesus birth, everything or message from God that had to do with jesus survival as a child was done through the man, the father Joseph? This is in line with Gods arrangement of family and Christian headship. You are trying to change Gods arrangement through the elevation of mary.

All these explanations is not needed, what I'm asking is who is the woman that God was talking about in Gen 3: 15-17:?

"And I will cause hostility between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will strike your head, and you will strike his heel.”
16 Then he said to the woman,
“I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy, and in pain you will give birth. And you will desire to control your husband, but he will rule over you.

Pls tell us with an explanation of the bolded parts.



She was punished for disobedience!
A lot of people commit fornication today knowing fully well that Gods purnishment will come on them. They did not disbelief gods word, yet they still break it.

Mary is a seed of eve.


Yep you are right, and eve stopped having children when she broke the covenant just as the isrealites stopped receiving blessings right?
And all women are arks cus they all have the ability to carry offsprings.

The ability to carry the mans seed after conception was giving to all women, a mother could have a son cus she has the same human makeup as eve. It is Gods arrangement and it does not mean that eve was the ark.
As the ark and the covenant, including its rules and laws was for all isrealites , so also was the ability to spread and fill the earth for man and woman, not for woman alone and definitely not for eve alone. To use these gift given to women to mean eve was the ark is wrong. The scriptures never said so.
Remember, eve was created from adam!


Ill reply these in my next post.

6. how is the typology flawed?
St. Paul gave this typology in Romans 5:14 - 21. Jesus is the second and new adam. Typology shows similarities and contrasts. I already said this before. You are arguing against what i did not say. I never said Jesus is the same as Adam or that Mary is the same as Eve.
The similarities between jesus and adam is fully explained and supported by the scriptures. The reasons for the similarities are giving in the context. Your derived topology does not follow scriptural arrangements, neither does the scripture support ur views outside the fact that some similar events happened. There are a lot of similar events in the scriptures. Using them the way you do to elevate mary will totally distort what the scriptures is saying.

7. Disobedience and not irreverence or lack of respect? Seriously? How do you disobey and claim to respect at the same time? you can disobey and respect someone at the same time. Mishark and abednego did it.
When God told Moses to take off his sandal cause he was on holy ground, why did God make that statement?
Because the ground was holy and was to be respected and reverenced. So if Moses had not taken off his sandal, would it have just been disobedience or disobedience by disrespecting and irreverencing the holy ground?

You just supported my view with the bold. If the instruction has not been giving,moses would not have been purnished if he wore his sandals despite that place being a holy ground. So if the instruction was not giving and moses had worn his sandals into the holy ground, would he have shown irrelevance and disrespect to the holy ground ? The issue of disrespect would not have been mentioned.

8.
A.So how do you honour ur biological mother, that is different from how u honour her spiritually
B.how do you honor ur mother spiritually.
C.how is Mary your mother.( remember, the woman in rev 12 is not mary, and before you start saying we are jesus brothers, remember what jesus said about who is brothers and mothers where)

Answers to these questions are simple.
Firstly, Mary is the WOMAN in Rev 12. That one is clear. If you think it isn't, give your own name of who the woman is.
Honouring her is done in different ways. One of which is calling her the way the angel did "KECHARITOMENE" or in english "Full Of Grace". Another is fulfilling the biblical prophecy in Luke 1:48 "..... people forever will call me blessed" by calling her Blessed Virgin Mary.
If you say you are a christian but not a brother of Jesus, then you are not sure of what you are.
You have seen that you stylishly refused to answer any of the questions but tried to focus on ur view of Mary.
First, ill tell you who that woman in rev 12 is when you answer the 3 questions I asked you on rev 12.
Second, I've shown you that mary was not everly a virgin, as she had other children, both male and female. Other peoples children would not have been moving with mary so frequently mentioned in the scriptures if she had not been their biological mother. They would have been with their own mother, afterall they did not believe in jesus untill after his ressurection.

Thirdly, mary is highly favoured as the scriptures tell me and ill call her "mary, a woman blessed by God"
8. Bros, to, unto, till and until when used to represent time (especially in the bible) do not mean that something different occured after.

It means that the event or situation changed the moment after the reason for it remaining constant got fufilled. That Joseph did not know his wife until his wife gave birth means that the situation changed after his wife gave birth and thus then knew his wife. God allows sexual relationship between husband and wife, and Joseph and marys marriage was not an exception, neither was there any instruction for them not to enjoy sexual relations with each other. So dnt formulate one for them.

The question I asked about jesus sitting at the right hand of God until his enemies have been put under his feet has not been answered by you

Bringing up the issue of giving birth after her ressurection is extremely funny and irrelevant to the subject matter.
You are the one who asked if she could give birth after death

9. Greek is the not the language of Israel, Hebrew is. In Hebrew, they for more than 1000 years (from Abraham to Jesus) have been calling all kinsmen "BROTHERS". After greek came in, they all continued in the same way. They kept calling kinsmen brother(Adelphos). They did not switch to a greek method of describing family.
Same way an ibo man would save himself stress and call anyone from his hometown "My Brother" or "Nwannem" instead of "He is the son of my grandfather's elder brother's first son."
The new testament scriptures was written in greek and there is a greek work for cousin. If those brothers where cousins, the writers of the greek scriptures would have used the greek word for cousin.
For example a yoruba man knows the word "oju" can refer to both face and eye. The context determines which is which. But I'd that yoruba man is going to write in English, he will use his knowledge or concept to determine which is which and write it down accordingly. He will not continue to always write down eye when the context is reffering to face!

Now is there an example of these when it comes to brothers and cousins?
Did the Jews who wrote the scriptures used the greek word for cousin?

Col 4:10
My fellow prisoner Aristarchus sends you his greetings, as does Mark, the cousin of
Barnabas. (You have received instructions about him; if he comes to you, welcome him.)

Even the writer of Luke used the greek word for relative when refering to mary and elizabeth.

So they knew these greek words and knew when to use then, but at no time was it used for jesus half brothers. This shows they where actually jesus real half brothers who where (in most cases in was mentioned) always with their real mother , mary , who is also the real mother of jesus.

10. "James in Gal 1:19 is called brother of the Lord but we all know that James the apostle was not his brother. Same as those written in Acts.
that is why you where specifically told that this James is the lords(jesus) brother. not James the disciple."

this is a grave contradiction.

The 12 disciples became the 12 Apostles. This James was a disciple that became an apostle that is being called the Lord's brother. So James the apostle was James the disciple.

There are only two James. James, the brother of John also calle James the greater. and James, son of Alphaeus/Clopas also called Brother of Jesus and James the younger.
"among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee" (Matt. 27:56)
This means the James in Matthew is James the younger. This is the same James the Apostle in Gal 1:19. The same person whom Jude said is his brother in Jude 1:1. Note Jude was one of the twelve.
For space purpose, I'm going to reply to this in My next post.

1. Even Jesus clarified the issue with Nathaniel. “You believe because I said: 'I saw you under the fig tree.' But you will see greater things than that.”

Nathaniel did not exclaim because he saw Jesus’ Glory. He exclaimed because Jesus said He saw him under the tree. What is glorious about seeing someone under a tree?

If you had brought your argument from the notion that all Jesus did was Glorious, it would be different. But using Nathaniel’s statement doesn’t prove any point.

Yes. Glory isn’t followed by miracles. But Glory is followed by unusual events e.g. Transfiguration.

Using dictionary for spiritual discussions doesn’t help. The Glory of God is not ”something that makes you feel very happy”.

2. “She took its fruit and ate it and gave some to her husband who was with her. He ate it.” – Gen 3:8.

Eve did not command Adam to eat the fruit. At most, what she did was suggest it to him. Just as Mary suggested to Jesus subtly when she said “Son, they have no wine”.

3. Nobody has said Mary was the head of the family. If a wife is holier than the husband, it does not make her the head of the family. Do not assume when making a logical argument.

4. Explanation of the bolded parts.
The woman is Mary. Gen 3:15 was spoken to the serpent about the woman and the man she is to give birth to. Which man fulfiled the prophecy and who was his mother.

However, when God spoke to the woman and the man directly, he spoke to them and their descendants. You seem to be tying it strictly to Mary which is a wrong move. Typology is not necessarily tied to one person alone.

When God spoke to the woman in verse 16, He was talking to her and all the women to come.
When God spoke to the man in verse 17 - 19, He was talking to him and all the men to come.


So obviously, sharpening the pain and he ruling over her refers to every human and to the structure of a family based on Marriage.

5. DISOBEDIENCE IS A PRODUCT OF DISBELIEF.
You are trying to separate the Faith from the Works. If I do something evil consciously, then I am guilty of both disbelief and disobedience.

Read John 3:36. Disbelief and Disobedience are the same. Leave English dictionary and follow biblical language.

6. Covenants.
God does not say I will only give you children if you honour the covenant. Gen 3:16-19 is the punishment given for breaking the covenants.

Every time someone disrespected the Ark of the Covenant, there was a punishment. Uzziah is a nice example.
When the covenant box was captured during times of war, the Israelites always suffered defeat.
Even the philistine god Dagon fell face flat, broke its head and arms when the Ark of the Covenant placed in front of it.

7. Holy ground.
It doesn’t support your view. You are trying to circumvent the Holy ground and you are just trying to tie the command to God directly without remembering that the command was given about a place that God himself made holy.

God gave the instruction to Moses because God had made the ground holy. The fact is God made it holy and detrmined what was to be done there and what is not to be done there. If you desecrate the place, you irreverence it and by irreverencing it, you offend the One who made it holy.

8. Other Children.
“They thought he was in the company and after walking the whole day they looked for him among their relatives and friends”. –- Luke 2:44.

They did not say they looked for him along the other children. They looked for him among their relatives and friends.

Even verse 43 says his parents were returning home. No mention of other children.

9. Mary and Elizabeth.

Bros, Luke 1:36 uses syngenis not anepsios.

And anepsios only occurs once in the bible which is in Colossians 4:10. This negates your argument that they used “ANEPSIOS”.

Paul was very very educated and so he would know specific words that you wouldn’t expect the rest of the Apostles to know. Read Acts 22:3.

dolphinheart:

11. Mary was saved before she was born. Jesus kept her from sin and so she was and is sinless by the Grace of God. "FULL OF GRACE" in a past perfect participle.

Mary was not born in sin. She was saved and sanctified before birth.

Before you say it is Catholic tradition, read the quotes from the protestant reformers on Mary:
servantofchrist.tripod.com/beholdthymother/id20.html

12. IN GREEK "KECHARITOMENE".

From Charitoo which means grace. Do a break down of the words used to make KECHARITOMENE and see if it means "FULL OF GRACE" or not. Biblehub will always include commentaries by Modern Protestants and reject Catholic ones. Do your research.

At bold , pls explain how you can be saved before birth.

Greek word charitoo:
Definition
1. to make graceful
a. charming, lovely, agreeable
2. to peruse with grace, compass with
favour
3. to honour with blessings
...........................

to give graciously, to show acts of kindness by freely giving; (n.) one highly favored; see also {5921}
Definition: to favor, visit with favor, to make an object of favor, to gift,, Eph. 1:6;
pass. to be visited with free favor, be an object of gracious visitation, Lk. 1:28*

https://billmounce.com/greek-dictionary/charitoo
.......................


χαριτόω charitóō, khar-ee-to'-o; from G5485; to grace, i.e. indue with special honor:—make accepted, be highly favoured.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5487
............................
Some Translations that used favoured in Luke 1:26

1.New International Version
2.New Living Translation
3.English Standard Version
4.Berean Study Bible
5.Berean Literal Bible
6.New American Standard Bible
7.King James Bible
8.Holman Christian Standard Bible
9.International Standard Version
10.GOD'S WORD® Translation
11.New American Standard 1977
12. King James 2000 Bible
13.American King James Version
14.American Standard Version
15.Darby Bible Translation
16.English Revised Version
17.Webster's Bible Translation
18.weymouth New Testament
19.World English Bible
20.Young's Literal Translation

Does the angel greeting mary with " full of grace" mean she was born perfect without sin? . The scriptures never said so nor implied so.

Mary is not perfect, she did not understand the greeting.!
Luke 1:29
"Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might
be."

The angel now told her what the greeting meant
Luke 1:30
But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.

Mary was now told what that favor is
Luke 1:31-33
You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be
great and will be called the Son of the Most High...........

There is no mention in the scriptures that mary had the same conception that jesus had and jesus had to be concieved that way so as to not to allow the seed of adam (an imperfect sinful seed) to be passed on to jesus.

Mary is from adam and thus inherited sin from birth. The scriptures does not indicate otherwise and ur use of derived analogy does not mean mary was without sin.

Romans 3: 21-24 totally shows the doctrine that mary is without sin as false.

”But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets
testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that
came by Christ Jesus.

Rom 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--

Mary called God her savior , a man without sin does not need a savior.
There is no other way at which mankind can be saved except through jesus ransom sacrifice. Therfore mary could not have been born without sin before jesus ransome sacrifice.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. (1 John 1:8-10)
This same words apply to mary

10. Firstly, you only broke down charitoo. Break down KECHARITOMENE and show us if it means “Full of grace” or “Highly favoured”.

Being full of grace does not mean she has perfect understanding na. Besides the Angel greeted her with a royal word “Hail” and she was not a queen though she was from the royal tribe of Judah.
If an angel appeared to you and called you King or Oba, regardless of how holy you are , you would be troubled at the statement. The word disturbed doesn’t connote anything sinful.

So what you are saying with the emphasis on found favor is that by Mary’s ability, she found God’s favor and then God decide to send Jesus through her. That is wrong.

God created Mary “Kecharitomene” (find out the real meaning). He already planned to come down to Earth by that time. He sent Mary, John the Baptist, the Apostles at that time because he had a plan. It was not a result of Mary finding favor.

So saying Luke 1:31-32 is a favor mary found with God is wrong. This is a passing of relevant information concerning what is about to her to Mary.

11. Mary was from adam and so was Jesus. One who was made right from creation “Full of grace” is obviously “Empty of sin”.

The same way God saved and saves people from sin regardless of their age is the same way God saved Mary from sin before birth in order that She would be more NOBLE and PERFECT – Heb. 9:11.

God is not limited by timer and space.

12. “All have sinned”.

Another take one verse and argue approach.

Romans 3:3 – “… if SOME of them were not faithful……”
Romans 3:9 – “”Do we have, then, any advantage? Not really. For we have just demonstrated that all, Jews and non-Jews, are under the power of sin,
Romans 3:10 – “as the Scripture says: Nobody is good, not even one,
”
Romans 3:23 – “Because all have sinned and all fall short of the Glory of God”

Two things are clear:
A. Paul uses all to connote that both jews and gentiles are in need of salvation. He does not say that every individual had sinned.
B. Paul still uses SOME in the same context. Even the scriptures he quoted from (which is Psalm 14 and also 53) shows that the statement is not general on individuals.

13. Born without sin before Jesus’ death.
If you say Mary could not have been born before Jesus’s death because Jesus’ death is necessary for salvation, then you are indirectly saying that every one that died before Jesus came were all not forgiven or saved from sin and so Abraham, Noah, Moses, ENOCH and ELIJAH were neither forgiven their sins nor saved.

Also you make God to be a liar because in so many places in the OT, God forgave sins and yet Jesus had not come or died.

Do not limit God by space and time.

You say no one can be righteous from Rom 5:12 but forget Luke 1:6, Hebrew 11 and the other people describes as righteous.

dolphinheart:

11. Mary was saved before she was born. Jesus kept her from sin and so she was and is sinless by the Grace of God. "FULL OF GRACE" in a past perfect participle.

Mary was not born in sin. She was saved and sanctified before birth.

Before you say it is Catholic tradition, read the quotes from the protestant reformers on Mary:
servantofchrist.tripod.com/beholdthymother/id20.html

12. IN GREEK "KECHARITOMENE".

From Charitoo which means grace. Do a break down of the words used to make KECHARITOMENE and see if it means "FULL OF GRACE" or not. Biblehub will always include commentaries by Modern Protestants and reject Catholic ones. Do your research.

At bold , pls explain how you can be saved before birth.

Greek word charitoo:
Definition
1. to make graceful
a. charming, lovely, agreeable
2. to peruse with grace, compass with
favour
3. to honour with blessings
...........................

to give graciously, to show acts of kindness by freely giving; (n.) one highly favored; see also {5921}
Definition: to favor, visit with favor, to make an object of favor, to gift,, Eph. 1:6;
pass. to be visited with free favor, be an object of gracious visitation, Lk. 1:28*

https://billmounce.com/greek-dictionary/charitoo
.......................


χαριτόω charitóō, khar-ee-to'-o; from G5485; to grace, i.e. indue with special honor:—make accepted, be highly favoured.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5487
............................
Some Translations that used favoured in Luke 1:26

1.New International Version
2.New Living Translation
3.English Standard Version
4.Berean Study Bible
5.Berean Literal Bible
6.New American Standard Bible
7.King James Bible
8.Holman Christian Standard Bible
9.International Standard Version
10.GOD'S WORD® Translation
11.New American Standard 1977
12. King James 2000 Bible
13.American King James Version
14.American Standard Version
15.Darby Bible Translation
16.English Revised Version
17.Webster's Bible Translation
18.weymouth New Testament
19.World English Bible
20.Young's Literal Translation

Does the angel greeting mary with " full of grace" mean she was born perfect without sin? . The scriptures never said so nor implied so.

Mary is not perfect, she did not understand the greeting.!
Luke 1:29
"Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might
be."

The angel now told her what the greeting meant
Luke 1:30
But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.

Mary was now told what that favor is
Luke 1:31-33
You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be
great and will be called the Son of the Most High...........

There is no mention in the scriptures that mary had the same conception that jesus had and jesus had to be concieved that way so as to not to allow the seed of adam (an imperfect sinful seed) to be passed on to jesus.

Mary is from adam and thus inherited sin from birth. The scriptures does not indicate otherwise and ur use of derived analogy does not mean mary was without sin.

Romans 3: 21-24 totally shows the doctrine that mary is without sin as false.

”But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets
testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that
came by Christ Jesus.

Rom 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--

Mary called God her savior , a man without sin does not need a savior.
There is no other way at which mankind can be saved except through jesus ransom sacrifice. Therfore mary could not have been born without sin before jesus ransome sacrifice.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. (1 John 1:8-10)
This same words apply to mary

10. Firstly, you only broke down charitoo. Break down KECHARITOMENE and show us if it means “Full of grace” or “Highly favoured”.

Being full of grace does not mean she has perfect understanding na. Besides the Angel greeted her with a royal word “Hail” and she was not a queen though she was from the royal tribe of Judah.
If an angel appeared to you and called you King or Oba, regardless of how holy you are , you would be troubled at the statement. The word disturbed doesn’t connote anything sinful.

So what you are saying with the emphasis on found favor is that by Mary’s ability, she found God’s favor and then God decide to send Jesus through her. That is wrong.

God created Mary “Kecharitomene” (find out the real meaning). He already planned to come down to Earth by that time. He sent Mary, John the Baptist, the Apostles at that time because he had a plan. It was not a result of Mary finding favor.

So saying Luke 1:31-32 is a favor mary found with God is wrong. This is a passing of relevant information concerning what is about to her to Mary.

11. Mary was from adam and so was Jesus. One who was made right from creation “Full of grace” is obviously “Empty of sin”.

The same way God saved and saves people from sin regardless of their age is the same way God saved Mary from sin before birth in order that She would be more NOBLE and PERFECT – Heb. 9:11.

God is not limited by timer and space.

12. “All have sinned”.

Another take one verse and argue approach.

Romans 3:3 – “… if SOME of them were not faithful……”
Romans 3:9 – “”Do we have, then, any advantage? Not really. For we have just demonstrated that all, Jews and non-Jews, are under the power of sin,
Romans 3:10 – “as the Scripture says: Nobody is good, not even one,
”
Romans 3:23 – “Because all have sinned and all fall short of the Glory of God”

Two things are clear:
A. Paul uses all to connote that both jews and gentiles are in need of salvation. He does not say that every individual had sinned.
B. Paul still uses SOME in the same context. Even the scriptures he quoted from (which is Psalm 14 and also 53) shows that the statement is not general on individuals.

13. Born without sin before Jesus’ death.
If you say Mary could not have been born before Jesus’s death because Jesus’ death is necessary for salvation, then you are indirectly saying that every one that died before Jesus came were all not forgiven or saved from sin and so Abraham, Noah, Moses, ENOCH and ELIJAH were neither forgiven their sins nor saved.

Also you make God to be a liar because in so many places in the OT, God forgave sins and yet Jesus had not come or died.

Do not limit God by space and time.

You say no one can be righteous from Rom 5:12 but forget Luke 1:6, Hebrew 11 and the other people describes as righteous.

dolphinheart:
@ jolliano



A statement from that webpage reads:

"Just like we don’t know what Jesus looked like, we don’t know what His mother Mary looked like either."

So the question is , how did you now get the pictures and images of mary and jesus. Did they just formulate one and you adopted it?

Not counting the many, many imagesthat people claim were painted by St. Luke, the earliest image we have of Mary is from the 2nd century, and you can’t exactly make out the details of her face (see the first image below).
In any case, it’s still fascinating to see how Christians depicted Mary in the first few centuries of the faith. Pay attention to who she’s almost always depicted with…
Enjoy!
1) Madonna and Child in the Catacombs – 2nd century
via histo ryofinformation.com
Located in the Catacomb of Priscilla in Rome, Mary appears to be nursing the infant Jesus on her lap. It is dated to around A.D. 150.
[See also: 13 Beautiful Non-White Depictions of the Blessed Virgin Mary]

(* represents my view)
* this picture was constructed 150 years after the event occured . The early disciples and apostles did not know about it, did not do it nor subscribe to it.

2) Madonna and Child With the Magi Bringing Him Gifts – 3rd century
Giovanni Dall’Orto / Wikimedia Commons
This is a picture of a cast of a sarcophagus that is in the Vatican museums. It shows the scene of the magi adoring the Christ child, who is held by his mother Mary. It is dated to the 3rd century.
3) Protectress of the Roman People – 5th century
Public Domain / Wikimedia Commons
The oldest and most important image of Our Lady in Rome, legend has it that it was one of the many icons painted by St. Luke, though historians date its original composition to the 5th century.
4) Madonna and Child Enthroned Among the Angels and Saints – 6th century
Public Domain / Wikimedia Commons
This image can be found at St. Catherine’s Monastery near Mt. Sinai and is dated to the 6th century. Around Mary and Jesus are St. Theodor of Amasea, St. George, and two angels. Notice also the hand at the top of the image (God the Father?).
[See also: 31 Beautiful Paintings of Mary Nursing the Baby Jesus]
5) A Nativity Icon – 7th century
via pravmir.com
This is another icon found at the monastery at Mt. Sinai, and it is dated to the 7th century.
6) Agiosoritissa (Mother of God) – 7th century
via communio.stblogs.org
Originally from Constantinople, this 7th century icon is currently kept at the Santa Maria del Rosario a Monte Mario in Rome.
7) Cover of Copy of the Gospels – 8th-9th century
Public Domain / Wikimedia Commons
This is the ivory cover of a copy of the Gospelscreated in Germany in the late 8th and early 9th century.
[See also: 7 Church Fathers on that Profound Insight of Mary as the New Eve]
Madonna and Child Icon – 9th century
Public Domain / Wikimedia Commons
This icon is currently kept in the Art Museum of Georgia (the country), and is dated to the 9th century.

* all these images are images formulated by the state church and its adherents.

The disciples did not bring up or make up any images or pictures of mary. They did not use the image in any veneration or part of worship to God. They where very careful as the scriptures warned.



1st james
James, Son of Zebedee; brother of John and one of the 12 apostles of Jesus Christ. His mother, it seems, was Salome, as may be noted by comparing two accounts of the same event.
One mentions “the mother of the sons of Zebedee,” the other calls her “Salome.”
Matt 27:55,56
Mark 15 :40,41

The next year, 31 C.E., when
Jesus designated 12 of his
disciples to be apostles, James was one of the group selected.
Mark 3:13-19
Luke 6:12-16
James is always mentioned along with his brother John, and in the majority of instances he is mentioned
first. This may indicate he was
the older of the two.

James evidently died in 44 C.E.
Herod Agrippa I had him
executed with the sword. He was the first of the 12 apostles to die as a martyr.

second james
Another apostle of Jesus
Christ and son of Alphaeus.

Matt 10:2,3:
"The names of the 12 apostles are these: First, Simon, the one called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebʹe•dee and John his brother; Philip and Bar•tholʹo•mew; Thomas and
Matthew the tax collector;
James the son of Al•phaeʹus;

Mark 3:18
Luke 6:15

Acts 1:13:
"When they arrived, they went
up into the upper room where
they were staying. There were
Peter as well as John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bar•tholʹo•mew and Matthew, James the son of Al•phaeʹus, and Simon the zealous one, and Judas the son of James."

It is generally believed and
quite probable that Alphaeus
was the same person as Clopas, in which event James’ mother was Mary, the same Mary that was “the mother of James the Less and of Joses.” john 19:25
Mark 15;40

He may have been called James the Less because of being either smaller in physical stature or younger in age than the other apostle James, the son of Zebedee.

3rd james
James, Son of Joseph and Mary, and half brother of Jesus.

Mark 6:3
Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't
this Mary's son and the
brother of James, Joseph,
Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
These later sons of Mary explain why Jesus was called her “firstborn son” (Matthew 1:25
Luke 2:7:
"and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them.

The attempts by some to make these cousins and not brothers of Jesus are ill-advised attempts to deny scripture. (to be examined in my next post)

Gal 1:19
I saw none of the other apostles--only James, the. Lord's brother

Although not an apostle, it
was evidently this James who
was an overseer of the Christian congregation at Jerusalem.
Acts 12:17
"Peter motioned with his hand for them to be quiet and described how the Lord had
brought him out of prison. “Tell
James and the other brothers
and sisters about this,” he said, and then he left for another place.

He may have been next to Jesus in age, being the first named of Mary’s four natural-born sons: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas.

It appears that during Jesus’
ministry James was well
acquainted with his brother’s
activity, but though apparently not opposed, he was not one of the disciples and followers of Christ.
Luke 8:19
"Now Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd.

John 2:12
"After this he and his mother and his brothers and his disciples went down to
Ca•perʹna•um, but they did not
stay there many days.

Matt 12:46-60

He was probably with his nonbelieving brothers when they urged Jesus to go boldly up to the Festival of Tabernacles, at a time when the rulers of the Jews were seeking to kill him.

However, after the death of
Jesus and prior to Pentecost
33 C.E., James was assembled
for prayer together with his
mother, brothers, and the
apostles in an upper chamber in Jerusalem.
Acts 1:13,14
" When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying.
Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. 14 They all joined together constantly in
prayer, along with the women
and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.

It was evidently to this James that the resurrected Jesus appeared personally, so convincing this onetime nonbeliever that He was indeed the Messiah. This reminds us of Jesus’ personal appearance to Paul.

"After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. But last of all he appeared also to me as if to one born prematurely."

Thereafter James became a
prominent member and,
apparently, an “apostle” of the
Jerusalem congregation.

Thus, at Paul’s first visit with the Jerusalem brothers (about 36 C.E.), he says he spent 15 days with Peter but “saw no one else of the apostles, only James the brother
of the Lord.”
Peter, after his miraculous release from prison, instructed the brothers at John Mark’s home, “Report these things to James and the brothers,” thereby indicating James’ prominence.

That it was this ‘brother of Jesus’ who wrote the book of James, and not one of the apostles by the same name (either the son of Zebedee or the son of Alphaeus), seems to be indicated at the beginning of his letter. There the writer identifies himself as “a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,” rather than as an apostle. In a similar fashion his brother Judas (Jude)
also identified himself as “a slave of Jesus Christ, but a brother of James.”

My next post will be a re- examination of the word "brother".

1. The first image was made in about 150AD. This is the oldest image that is still around now. There would definitely be older ones which have been lost or misplaced.
Just as original manuscripts of the books in the bible are no longer here.

So if you say the apostles did not know of the images because we have no image from their time, the same can be said (even more) about the books of the bible.

B. St John died in about 100AD and just fifty years later, you are saying the Christians had fallen away and started making images. Oksy o. Can you give us a proof of the Christians falling away at that time?

C. You say the State Church created the images but you already said the State Church was formed by Constantine. So how did a State Church formed in 325AD create an image in 150AD?


2. You are now arguing using non-biblical sources to argue. Thought you were Sola Scriptura guy. Why can’t you use the bible to prove that there were James and not two?

I will fully reply it in your next post sha.

dolphinheart:
@ jolliano

Jesus brothers.

Brothers of Jesus. The four Gospels, the Acts of Apostles, and two of Paul’s letters mention “the Lord’s brothers,” “the brother of the Lord,” “his brothers,” “his sisters,” naming four of the “brothers”: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas.
Mt 12:46; 13:55, 56;
Mr 3:31;
Lu 8:19;
Joh 2:12;
Ac 1:14;
1Co 9:5;
Ga 1:19.

The majority of Bible scholars accept the cumulative evidence that Jesus had at least four brothers and two sisters and that all were offspring of Joseph and Mary by natural means after the miraculous birth of Jesus.
The arbitrary notions that these brothers of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former marriage, or by levirate marriage with Joseph’s sister-in-law, must be classified as fictitious, since there is no factual confirmation or even a suggestion to this effect in the Scriptures. The claim that “brother” (a•del•phosʹ) here means “cousin” (a•ne•psi•osʹ) is a theoretical contention, the
invention of which is credited to Jerome, and dates back no
earlier than 383 C.E. Not only does Jerome fail to cite any
support for his newborn hypothesis but in later writings he wavers in his opinions and
even expresses misgivings about his “cousin theory.”
J. B. Lightfoot states that “St
Jerome pleaded no traditional
authority for his theory, and that therefore the evidence in its favour is to be sought in
Scripture alone. I have examined the scriptural evidence, and the . . . combination of difficulties . . . more than counterbalances these secondary arguments in
its favour, and in fact must lead to its rejection.”—St. Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians, London, 1874, p. 258.

In the Greek Scriptures where
the account involved a nephew
or cousin, a•del•phosʹ is not
used. Rather, the relationship is explained, as “the son of Paul’s sister” or “Mark the cousin [a•ne•psi•osʹ] of Barnabas.”
Ac 23:16;
Col 4:10

In Luke 21:16 the Greek words syg•ge•nonʹ (relatives, such as cousins) and a•del•phonʹ (brothers) both occur, showing that the terms are not used loosely or indiscriminately in the Greek Scriptures.

When, during Jesus’ ministry,
“his brothers were, in fact, not
exercising faith in him,” this
would certainly rule out their
being his brothers in a spiritual
sense.
Joh 7:3-5

Jesus contrasted these fleshly brothers with his disciples,
,who believed in him and who were his spiritual brothers.
Mt 12:46-50;
Mr 3:31-35;
Lu 8:19-21.

This lack of faith on the part of his fleshly brothers prohibits identifying them with apostles of the same names: James, Simon, Judas; they are explicitly distinguished from Jesus’ disciples.— . Joh 2:12

The relationship these fleshly brothers of Jesus had with his mother Mary also indicates they were her children rather than more distant relatives. They are usually mentioned in association with her.

Statements to the effect that Jesus was Mary’s “firstborn”
(Lu 2:7) , and that Joseph “had
no intercourse with her until she gave birth to a son,” also support the view that Joseph and Mary had other children.(Mt 1:25)

Even Nazarene neighbors
recognized and identified Jesus as “the brother of James and Joseph and Judas and Simon,” adding, “And his sisters are here with us, are they not?”— .
Mr 6:3

After Jesus’ resurrection his
fleshly brothers changed their
doubting attitude, for they were present with their mother and the apostles when assembled for prayer after Jesus’ ascension.
This suggests that they
were present also at the
outpouring of the holy spirit on
the day of Pentecost.

1. BROTHERS.
Let me help you expand your list. So we can use in context and not individual verses.

Matt 12:46–50, Luke 8:19-22 and Mark 3:31-35.
In all these readings, Jesus when replying also says brothers and mothers but never mentions sisters. Either Jesus is saying the Kingdom of God is for males only or the word “BROTHERS” refers to both sexes and that would go back to the actual interpretation of adelphos as kinsmen which is what you are trying to deny.

John 2:11-12.
Jesus traveled with his mother, brothers and disciples. I wonder why the same brothers who disbelieved him were travelling with him. This does not prove that they were biological brothers.

Matthew 13:55-56.
List the names of Jesus’ brothers and sisters. Does not say they are his blood brothers and sisters?

ADELPHOS
Matthew 23:8, Jesus says you are all brothers and sisters. So all of them came from the same parents now abi?

Acts 1:14-15.
This is how you contradict yourself and your arguments.
Apostles(12), Mary(1), some women(let’s assume they were twenty) and his brothers(X) = 120.
This means the brothers were about 87 in number.
Now either you accept that the brothers were family relatives or you explain to us how Mary gave birth to the about 87 children who were grown up when Jesus the first son just died at the age of 33/34.

1 Cor 9:5
After mentioning apostles, it would only be logical to mention disciples. So brothers of the Lord would be disciples and not blood brothers. Why would Paul be making references to Jesus’ blood brothers and not mention the disciples whom Jesus said were his brothers?

Gal 1:19
Still, James the less. Son of Alphaeus (Clopas). Not a blood brother of Jesus.


All these talk of Jesus blood brothers converting to disciples and apostles is not mentioned in the bible. So are you no longer s Sola Scriptura guy?

Also, you falsely accuse St Jerome (who was in charge of translating the whole bible) of inventing a tradition and not referencing anyone earlier. Abeg show us one person before 383AD who taught or wrote that the brothers are blood brothers of Jesus.

2. first born?
The greek word used in Luke is Protokon which occurs only thrice in the bible and does not in any place speak about a second child.

Whoever opens the womb is called firstborn both biblically and historically. Read Exodus 13:1-2.

In verse 7, the word “firstborn” (protokon) is particularly noteworthy. This term had above all a juridical-legal meaning, and designated the “firstborn” who was to be offered to God for his ransom (Ex 13:1-6; Num 3:12-13; 8:5-26; 18:15-16), who had the right to his father’s first and most important blessing, and who received a double inheritance in comparison to other sons. Therefore, the first son was called firstborn even if there were no other sons after him.

3. Until.
The greek word for until is “heos”. Check through everywhere it is used. It means to, unto, till and until. They are used interchangeably.

Matthew 11:12 uses until and it does not connote that something different will occur in heaven.
And yes, Jesus was still in heaven even when he was present in Earth.

There are mentions of God meeting Moses on a mountain. Would you say God left heaven to come talk to Moses?

4. Jerome.

You are using someone’s lie to argue against Jerome. This is Jerome’s response to Helvidius. Just in case you did not know, Helvidius is only known because of this letter Jerome wrote.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm

If Jerome invented the cousin/relative talk, how come Helvidius who was “teaching the truth” was not known and at the same time, show us one early Christian who shared Helvidius’ theory?

5. quotes from church fathers on Mary’s perpetual virginity.

Origen
The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the first fruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the first fruit of virginity (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).

Hilary of Poitiers
If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary's sons and not those taken from Joseph's former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, "Woman, behold your son," and to John, "Behold your mother" [John 19:26-27], as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]).

Athanasius
Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that He took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary (Discourses against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).

We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).

It helps us to understand the terms "firstborn" and "only begotten" when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin "until she brought forth her firstborn son" [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin" (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]).

Why do you not reply by quoting the specific section in my post that you are making reference to. This ur method will not allow others to fully understand the discussion.....or maybe that's ur aim.

Jolliano:


1. Even Jesus clarified the issue with Nathaniel. “You believe because I said: 'I saw you under the fig tree.' But you will see greater things than that.”

Nathaniel did not exclaim because he saw Jesus’ Glory. He exclaimed because Jesus said He saw him under the tree. What is glorious about seeing someone under a tree?

Cus jesus was not at that tree to see Nathaniel sitting down.
Would you not be astonished if I tell you all you did yesterday, even in the privacy of ur house?
Do you think its an ordinary thing to see someone sitting down under the tree far away from ur line of sight.?
The answers to that will make you understand why Nathaniel believed jesus cus of jesus statement.
Jesus did not only see Nathaniel , he told Nathaniel who he is!, which suprised Nathaniel.
I'm suprised that you view this as not magnificent and impressive and thus to be classified as glorious!.
Maybe you expect something to be a physical manifestation before its glorious.

If you had brought your argument from the notion that all Jesus did was Glorious, it would be different. But using Nathaniel’s statement doesn’t prove any point.

If I've done that you would not have been able to reply at all.

Yes. Glory isn’t followed by miracles. But Glory is followed by unusual events e.g. Transfiguration.

Who is talking about glory?

Using dictionary for spiritual discussions doesn’t help. The Glory of God is not ”something that makes you feel very happy”.

Dnt change the topic , glorious deed is different from glory.

2. “She took its fruit and ate it and gave some to her husband who was with her. He ate it.” – Gen 3:8.

Eve did not command Adam to eat the fruit. At most, what she did was suggest it to him. Just as Mary suggested to Jesus subtly when she said “Son, they have no wine”.

Jesus has Told you several times that he has not done anything on his own, all he did are what the father had told him to do.
Mary's suggestion has no basis. Jesus would have done so, even if mary had not made the suggestion. This is the difference between what eve did and that of mary.

You dnt even know if mary's request was that jesus should bring money for them to go and buy more wine.

I remember what jesus told mary when she made that suggestion, Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee?

3. Nobody has said Mary was the head of the family. If a wife is holier than the husband, it does not make her the head of the family. Do not assume when making a logical argument.

And then dnt give her a headship position.
God did not give it to her when she had jesus, jesus did not give it her when he was on earth( he even went further to tell you and I who his mother is), the apostles did not give it to her when she was with them, why then do you now give it to her even when the scriptures did not tell you to.?
Queen mother or queen of heaven is an earthly title that has no divine inspiration and the scriptures never mentioned any good thing about that title, not even one good thing!

4. Explanation of the bolded parts.
The woman is Mary. Gen 3:15 was spoken to the serpent about the woman and the man she is to give birth to. Which man fulfiled the prophecy and who was his mother.

Haba!, is jesus not a descendant of eve?

However, when God spoke to the woman and the man directly, he spoke to them and their descendants. You seem to be tying it strictly to Mary which is a wrong move. Typology is not necessarily tied to one person alone.

You are the one tying the prophecy to mary!

When God spoke to the woman in verse 16, He was talking to her and all the women to come.
When God spoke to the man in verse 17 - 19, He was talking to him and all the men to come.

Why are you now changing course, so the prophecy was not for eve alone, but for her and all her offsprings!
Dnt worry, you will still change it again.

So obviously, sharpening the pain and he ruling over her refers to every human and to the structure of a family based on Marriage.

Are you saying that the structure on family giving by God will change when we become perfect again?
What does giving birth in pain have to do with family structure?
Can you tell us if mary gave birth in pain?

5. DISOBEDIENCE IS A PRODUCT OF DISBELIEF.
You are trying to separate the Faith from the Works. If I do something evil consciously, then I am guilty of both disbelief and disobedience.

Read John 3:36. Disbelief and Disobedience are the same. Leave English dictionary and follow biblical language.

Quote the scripture you mentioned and let's see if you are right.

I gave you an example of how people believe they will be purnished yet went along to disobey the command giving.

Did David disbelief God when he sinned? No. His imperfect state caused him to disobey Gods command, God did not purnish him for disbelief, he was purnished for disobedience. Disbelief is not disobedience!

Did Satan disbelief God or disobeyed God?
Or do you think Satan does not know that they will die when he lied to eve?

Again I tell you, eve was purnished for disobedience not disbelief, there explanation shows that they believed God but where deceived by Satan.
Rom 1:5
John 15:14

6. Covenants.
God does not say I will only give you children if you honour the covenant. Gen 3:16-19 is the punishment given for breaking the covenants.

The above destroys ur view that mary was the ark cus she gave birth to jesus. Breaking the covenant did not stop eve from giving birth, therefore the covenant was not based on womens ability to give birth, but rather on their obedience to God.

Every time someone disrespected the Ark of the Covenant, there was a punishment. Uzziah is a nice example.
When the covenant box was captured during times of war, the Israelites always suffered defeat.
Even the philistine god Dagon fell face flat, broke its head and arms when the Ark of the Covenant placed in front of it.

The punishments where for disobedience. All punishments associated with the ark was as a result of direct disobedience of Gods command respecting the ark. There was no punishment that has no law to guide it. Uzziah was punished cus he disobeyed Gods command, not because he disrespected it!

7. Holy ground.
It doesn’t support your view. You are trying to circumvent the Holy ground and you are just trying to tie the command to God directly without remembering that the command was given about a place that God himself made holy.

God gave the instruction to Moses because God had made the ground holy. The fact is God made it holy and detrmined what was to be done there and what is not to be done there. If you desecrate the place, you irreverence it and by irreverencing it, you offend the One who made it holy.

The question I asked is, So if the instruction was not giving and moses had worn his sandals into the holy ground, would he have shown irrelevance and disrespect to the holy ground ?.
You did not answer the question.

If the instruction has not been giving, would moses be purnished for wearing the sandals into the holy ground? No.
So he will be purnished for disobeying an order and not purnished for disrespect, same with the ark.
If moses have been told to remove his clothes there and he had not done it, he would have been punished. But that he was not giving such command, he was not punished for wearing his clothes into the holy ground.

8. Other Children.
“They thought he was in the company and after walking the whole day they looked for him among their relatives and friends”. –- Luke 2:44.

They did not say they looked for him along the other children. They looked for him among their relatives and friends.

Did you read the verses at all?

First king games Bible says :
"But they, supposing him to
have been in the company."

Holman Christian Standard
Bible says :
"Assuming He was in the
traveling party, they went a
day's journey.

International Standard
Version says :
They thought that he was in
their group of travelers.

Aramaic Bible in Plain
English says:
"For they were thinking that he
was with the children of their
friends.

Does this verse not tell you that they know as a family that jesus was not with them,? that they thought he was with other people travelling in the same direction with them?
They already know he is not with them, but you want the scriptures to expand it to "he was not with the other children of mary". The point there is that jesus alone stayed in Jerusalem. That the verses did not mention other children of mary does not mean mary did not have other children . The context was on jesus and not the other children. And they where not dummies to be looking for him among their own children when they already know he is not among them. They had travelled for a day, it is enough time for a good parent to count her children and know one is not there, so why search among the children. You will search among the other travellers in which you initially believe he is among, not ur other children in which you already know he is not.!

Even verse 43 says his parents were returning home. No mention of other children.

Cus the story was about the custom of the parents, they did not mention directly that they took jesus Along, but the content of the story shows jesus went with them. If jesus had not stayed in the temple on that occasion, the story would not have been told like the previous 11 and next 17 years of that custom of Joseph and mary where not told.

9. Mary and Elizabeth.

Bros, Luke 1:36 uses syngenis not anepsios.

And did I say the verse used anepsios?

This is what I said :
[b]”Even the writer of Luke used the greek word for relative when refering to mary and elizabeth.”

So did the writer of luke not use the greek word for relative.?

And anepsios only occurs once in the bible which is in Colossians 4:10. This negates your argument that they used “ANEPSIOS”.

That it was used at all shows you it was a known word in greek, and it was used where it was supposed to be used.

What is my arguement ? That there is a word for cousin in greek, and that word was used in the scriptures!

What ur defence? That it was only used once! Imagine.
pls give us another place where it should have been used and it was not used.
If the Greeks do not use relatives, they will be more specific with the description of the relationship.
Trying to bring the hebrew view into greek writings in a wrong view.

Paul was very very educated and so he would know specific words that you wouldn’t expect the rest of the Apostles to know. Read Acts 22:3.

Yep, the other writers of the new testament are olodos and do not know simple greek words like the one used for "cousin.".

Footnote: pls handle my posts the way I do urs so that all aspects of my post can be responded to.
These are things you did not respond to in ur post .

1.
A.So how do you honour ur
biological mother, that is
different from how u honour
her spiritually
B.how do you honor ur mother
spiritually.
C.how is Mary your mother.

2.. Other peoples children would not have been moving with mary so frequently mentioned in the scriptures if she had not been their biological mother. They would have been with their own mother, afterall they did not believe in Jesus untill after his ressurection.

3. The question I asked about Jesus sitting at the right hand of God until his enemies have been put under his feet has not been answered by you

Jolliano:


10. Firstly, you only broke down charitoo. Break down KECHARITOMENE and show us if it means “Full of grace” or “Highly favoured”.

Look at your words again below

From Charitoo which means grace. Do a break down of the words used to make
KECHARITOMENE and see if
it means "FULL OF GRACE"
or not.

I checked charitoo ,which is the main word or root word and posted what I found to you. You rejected the source of the first one, and you are now rejecting this one because it focused on charitoo.

Charitoo means highly favoured.

Excerpts from a website
[b]But, as anyone trained in Greek is aware, there is no way to jump from the perfect tense of a participle to the idea that the Greek "indicates a perfection of grace." First,
participles primarily derive their tense aspect from the main verb of the sentence. In this case, however, we have a vocative participle, and no main verb in what is in actuality simply a greeting. (The fact that the Roman Catholic Church has to attempt to build such a complex theology on the form of a participle in a greeting should
say a great deal in and of itself.)

What are we to do with the
perfect tense of the participle,
then? We might take it as an
intensive perfect, one that
emphatically states that
something *is* (see Dana and
Mantey, A Manual Grammar of
the Greek New Testament pg.
202), but most likely it is simply
emphasizing the certainty of the favor given, just as the perfect passive participle in Matthew 25:34 ("Come, you who are blessed by my Father...", 1 Thessalonians 1:4 ("For we know, brothers loved by God...", and 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ("But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord..." emphasizes the completedness of the action as well. No one would argue that in Matthew 25:34, Jesus means to tell us that the righteous have a "perfection of blessedness that indicates that they had this perfection throughout their life,.........
......."This is a recognition of her sinless state," falls for lack of support. The angel addressed Mary as "highly favored," for, as he himself said, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God."[/b]

Being full of grace does not mean she has perfect understanding na. Besides the Angel greeted her with a royal word “Hail” and she was not a queen though she was from the royal tribe of Judah.
If an angel appeared to you and called you King or Oba, regardless of how holy you are , you would be troubled at the statement. The word disturbed doesn’t connote anything sinful.

If mary was born without sin, she would have known it.
If mary was perfect, the scriptures would have told us that jesus is not the only perfect human at that time.
If mary birth had been miraculous to allow her not to born in sin, the scriptures would have emphasized it.

You say mary is a descendant of eve and adam, and the scriptures say all of their descendants where born in sin and these cause death. Now how did mary die?

If mary was born without sin, then all your typology on mary and eve in respect of giving birth with pains is false, cus the punishment will not apply to mary.

What had to happen before jesus was born perfect was explained on the scriptures, non was done for mary. Mary was concieved with an imperfect sperm from an imperfect man and thus perfection was passed to her as it has been done from the time of adam. For jesus to be born perfect, no sperm was involved.
The use of kecharitomeme to indicate mary was born without sin is the height of the development of false doctrine.
Ill advise that you look into the greek word translated into "hail " before you say again that it is a royal greeting.

So what you are saying with the emphasis on found favor is that by Mary’s ability, she found God’s favor and then God decide to send Jesus through her. That is wrong.

She was favoured to be the woman who will bear the messiah! That is what the angel was telling her.

God created Mary “Kecharitomene” (find out the real meaning). He already planned to come down to Earth by that time. He sent Mary, John the Baptist, the Apostles at that time because he had a plan. It was not a result of Mary finding favor.

No scriptures to support ur statements! Shows they are false!. Mary had no special creation.

So saying Luke 1:31-32 is a favor mary found with God is wrong. This is a passing of relevant information concerning what is about to her to Mary.

Among all women who are descendants of adam and David. Mary was chosen to conceive and bear the son of God. She was highly favoured!

11. Mary was from adam and so was Jesus. One who was made right from creation “Full of grace” is obviously “Empty of sin”.

Mary's birth is totally different from that of jesus. Mary had a human biological father!

The same way God saved and saves people from sin regardless of their age is the same way God saved Mary from sin before birth in order that She would be more NOBLE and PERFECT – Heb. 9:11.

Let's see heb 9:11
11 But when Christ came as
high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation.

Does this verse say anything about being saved before birth? No.

Does it say God have saved people from sin prior to jesus death? No.

What does this false doctrine about being saved prior to the ransome sacrifice tell us.? It teaches us that there are other means to have gained salvation before Christ came.
Does the scripture support this view ? Absolutely NO!

Let's go further on what heb chapter 9 says:

12. He entered into the holy place, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time, and obtained an everlasting deliverance for us.

Nobody was delivered or saved from sin(including mary) until when jesus entered into the holy place with his own blood.

You can see this is the scriptures talking and the doctrines are not based on the translation of a simple greeting.

15. That is why he is a
mediator of a new covenant, in
order that because a death has occurred for their release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance.

Now did mary receive the inheritance or not? If yes, then she received it not by being born without sin and thus saved but through the death of jesus Christ.

Now can you be born without sin while still being a descendant of adam basing it on the future ransome sacrifice of jesus? In other words, can you be born sinless on credit? The answer is NO!
Take a look at verse 17.

For where there is a covenant, the death of the human covenanter needs to be established, because a covenant is valid at death, since it is not in force as long as the human covenanter is living.

It is quite obvious that the Law covenant and the new covenant required the shedding of blood in order to go into operation or to be effective before God. Otherwise God would not have recognized them as valid, nor dealt with the persons involved on the basis of a covenant relationship, as verse 17 explains.

For the validation of the Law covenant, the sacrifice used was that of animals—bulls and
goats—these taking the place of Moses, the mediator. (verse 19 ) For validating the new covenant, the sacrifice was the human life of Jesus Christ.
Luke 22 :20
Also, he did the same with the cup after they had the evening meal, saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in
your behalf.

[b]Consequently, neither
was the former covenant put into effect without blood. For when Moses had spoken every commandment of the Law to all the people, he took the blood of the young bulls and of the goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled the book and all the people, saying: “This is the blood of the covenant that God has commanded you to keep.” He likewise sprinkled the tent and all the vessels of the holy service with the blood. Yes, according to the Law nearly all things are cleansed with blood, and unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place.
Therefore, it was necessary for the typical representations of the things in the heavens to be cleansed by these means, but the heavenly things require far better sacrifices. For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, so that he now appears before God on our behalf. This was not done to offer himself often, as when the high priest enters into the holy place from year to year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to do away with sin through the sacrifice of himself.
And just as it is reserved for
men to die once for all time, but after this to receive a judgment, so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the
second time that he appears it
will be apart from sin, and he
will be seen by those earnestly
looking for him for their salvation.[/b]

The old covenant cannot save the descendants of adam including mary .

God is not limited by timer and space.

God is a God of order, he does not do things anyhow. He is dealing with people who view time and space as very important.

12. “All have sinned”.

Another take one verse and argue approach.

Romans 3:3 – “… if SOME of them were not faithful……”
Romans 3:9 – “”Do we have, then, any advantage? Not really. For we have just demonstrated that all, Jews and non-Jews, are under the power of sin,
Romans 3:10 – “as the Scripture says: Nobody is good, not even one,
”
Romans 3:23 – “Because all have sinned and all fall short of the Glory of God”

Two things are clear:
A. Paul uses all to connote that both jews and gentiles are in need of salvation. He does not say that every individual had sinned.
B. Paul still uses SOME in the same context. Even the scriptures he quoted from (which is Psalm 14 and also 53) shows that the statement is not general on individuals.

A. You cannot twist the truth as mentioned in the scriptures!
Paul specifically tell us that all have sinned !
Rom 3:3
What then? Are we in a better position? Not at all! For
above we have made the charge that Jews as well as Greeks are all under sin;

Verse 23 and 24 .
[b]For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved
kindness [u]through the release by the ransom paid by Christ Jesus.

Psalms 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother
conceived me.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned

Mary died, did she not? What killed her, other people or sin?

Dnt try and remove some people that the scriptures did not tell you to remove from "all" that have sinned.

B. Always quote the complete sentence of the scripture mentioned even if you dnt want to quote the whole verse

Rom 3:3
What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God's faithfulness?

What does being faithful or unfaithtful have to do with being born in sin,? pls dnt let's spoil our discussion by twisting the scriptures
Was paul talking about inherited sin there? No
Are there some faithful humans? Yes
Are there some unfaithful humans? Yes
Are all humans born in sin? Yes.(except for jesus in which the reason and process of being born without sin are extensively mentioned and explained in the scripture and not as a result of a greeting.)

Was David born in sin? Yes
Was david faithful? Yes
Did David die like mary ? Yes
Mary was born in sin like every other descendants of adam!

Why do you not quote the psalms that support ur views and let us see.

13. Born without sin before Jesus’ death.
If you say Mary could not have been born before Jesus’s death because Jesus’ death is necessary for salvation, then you are indirectly saying that every one that died before Jesus came were all not forgiven or saved from sin and so Abraham, Noah, Moses, ENOCH and ELIJAH were neither forgiven their sins nor saved.

I wunt bother to go into details with you on this, cus you urself have contradicted your views with your statement.
You have admitted they where sinners, and where not saved from the effect of sin while alive.
Your question has also shown that you dnt understand the difference between forgiveness of sin and being saved from sin.
The old covenant can forgive sins, but cannot save one from it!

Also you make God to be a liar because in so many places in the OT, God forgave sins and yet Jesus had not come or died.

1. They had to sin first before forgiveness, therefore none was born perfect as you try to claim that some where.
2. Inherited sin can only be taking away by jesus ransome sacrifice, that is why jesus is the second adam, to restore what adam lost and give us salvation.
3. The gift of everlasting life can only be obtained through faithfulness and obedience to God till the end.
4. It is suprising how you are trying to link forgiveness of sin to sinlessness. there is no sin without law, the law makes your sin manifest, but the laws now also provided a way to seek and gain forgiveness for that sin. But it does not save you from the effect of sin!.

Do not limit God by space and time.

You say no one can be righteous from Rom 5:12 but forget Luke 1:6, Hebrew 11 and the other people describes as righteous.

Before I answer you on these , pls tell me where I said what you posted above.

All I know is there r alot of confused Christians every wer. I pray God helps u. http://getpaidpervisit.com/?rid=93642

Jolliano:


1. The first image was made in about 150AD. This is the oldest image that is still around now. There would definitely be older ones which have been lost or misplaced.
Just as original manuscripts of the books in the bible are no longer here.

Dnt merge 2 totally different scenarios together.
1. The original manuscripts existed, this pictures of mary did not, despite your speculations that it did and was lost.
2. The original manuscripts where copied for preservation and distribution, your so called original copy was not. So even if your original pictures did exist, that we can't find the original or copy shows you the early christians, the apostles and jehovahs view of the images of mary.

So if you say the apostles did not know of the images because we have no image from their time, the same can be said (even more) about the books of the bible.

Haba!, read what you posted again.!
How did you get the scriptures into your hands? Are you saying that the words in ur bible (though translated) are different from the ones written down by the apostles?
Or are you trying to tell us that the words in the manuscripts that we have now are collectively different from the one written by the apostles.

If your statement is true, then you are pointing to a fact the the bible you hold is fake and not a copy of the original, just like the pictures and images of mary, for that webpage says:

"Just like we don’t know what Jesus looked like, we don’t know what His mother Mary looked like either."

I also asked the question : how did you now get the pictures and images of mary and Jesus.?
Did they just formulate one and you adopted it?

B. St John died in about 100AD and just fifty years later, you are saying the Christians had fallen away and started making images. Oksy o. Can you give us a proof of the Christians falling away at that time?

1 ti 4:1-3
However, the inspired word(spirit) clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons, by
means of the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, whose conscience is seared as with a
branding iron. They forbid
marriage and command people
to abstain from foods that God
created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.

He further warned and admonished timothy in verse 7 and eleven .

[b]But reject irreverent false stories, like those told by old women. On the other hand, train yourself with godly devotion as your aim.

Keep on giving these
commands and teaching them.

Acts 20:30
and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.

Titus 1: 10,11,16
For there are many rebellious men, profitless talkers, and deceivers, especially those who adhere to the circumcision.
It is necessary to shut their
mouths, because these very
men keep on subverting entire
households by teaching things they should not for the sake of dishonest gain.
They publicly declare that they
know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and not approved for good work of any sort.

2 cor 11:12-14
[b]For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.

Jude 1:4,16
[b]My reason is that certain men have slipped in among you who were long ago appointed to this judgment by the Scriptures; they are ungodly men who turn the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for brazen conduct and who prove false to our only owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.

These men are murmurers, complainers about their lot in life, following their own desires, and their mouths make grandiose boasts, while they are flattering others for their own benefit.

If these people could exist and do these during the time of the apostles, i lost to see why they can't achieve the false doctrines about mary in the next 50 years.

The scriptures specifically mentioned several times one of the reasons for their actions, that they did it Cus of their desires, they did not like their present lot in life.
They found a way to enrich themselves, taking control of the congregation, creating false teachings and doctrines so that it could go along with pagan worshipers so as to absorb them into christianity to create a larger base for their plans.
These plans became fruitful during the time of constantine as he gave them political power and riches.

But as the scriptures says, their works shows who they where: they appointed kings, frolicked with rulers of the system and turned from the one being killed to the one doing the killing.

C. You say the State Church created the images but you already said the State Church was formed by Constantine. So how did a State Church formed in 325AD create an image in 150AD?

Your refusal to show in ur replies which part of my post you are reffering to shows you are hiding something or trying to twist my post. For you deliberately removed the word "adherents" when you tried to discuss what I said. You know fully well that adherents consists of those who where members of the church long before the church became a state church, and continued their works long afterward.
How many of the pictures existed before 325AD and how many of the pictures in that website existed after 325AD.?

Dnt know why you want to emphasize on the one before 325AD when I've already replied on that one thus seperating it from the other and more numerous images that came after 325AD.
Pls apply my statements to where I applied them!

2. You are now arguing using non-biblical sources to argue. Thought you were Sola Scriptura guy. Why can’t you use the bible to prove that there were James and not two?

I will fully reply it in your next post sha.

Pls quote my post again, bold it to show where I did that!
If my use of non scriptural sources you are reffering to the webpage on mary's image, I was simply using ur own webpage to point out the source of your imaginary images.
I've used the scripture to show you 3 james.

Again I repeat, always show which part of my post you are quoting by replying directly under the quote.

Jolliano:


1. BROTHERS.
Let me help you expand your list. So we can use in context and not individual verses.

Matt 12:46–50, Luke 8:19-22 and Mark 3:31-35.
In all these readings, Jesus when replying also says brothers and mothers but never mentions sisters. Either Jesus is saying the Kingdom of God is for males only or the word “BROTHERS” refers to both sexes and that would go back to the actual interpretation of adelphos as kinsmen which is what you are trying to deny.

We already know all the possible meanings of brothers and adelphos. What it means in each individual verse is what we are discussing. This you have failed to do. I quoted the verses and told you what it meant.

1. It seems you dnt read the scriptures .
Mark 3:35
Whoever does the will of God, this one is my brother
and sister and mother.

2. You keep on destroying your own views with your own words . Parts of your statement says : "and that would go back to the actual interpretation of adelphos as kinsmen which is what you are trying to deny.

Did jesus call them "brothers and mothers" cus they where his kinsmen?! If not, why do you use those verses to defend adelphos as being used for kinsmen?

its his step brothers that came along with their mother. They would not be moving around so often with someone else mother.

John 2:11-12.
Jesus traveled with his mother, brothers and disciples. I wonder why the same brothers who disbelieved him were travelling with him. This does not prove that they were biological brothers.

1. They travelled together cus they are family, all children of the same mother who was also present.
2. They travelled together cus they where all going in the same direction, all coming from the same direction.
The verses helps to understand that they all went to the same wedding in cana, that is why they all travelled from there.

3. The import of why I quoted that verse is lost on you. You failed to see that the verse mentioned disciples so as to prove that those brothers where not his spiritual brothers.
You also fail to see that once again , they where with jesus biological mother! Wonder why they are so close if its not because she is their biological mother. Cus as at that time, they dnt believe in jesus.

Matthew 13:55-56.
List the names of Jesus’ brothers and sisters. Does not say they are his blood brothers and sisters?

Maybe you where expecting their date of birth to be included.
In your own case, no use of the word brothers refer to biological brothers right?

ADELPHOS
Matthew 23:8, Jesus says you are all brothers and sisters. So all of them came from the same parents now abi?

Who was jesus talking to when he made that statement? He was talking to the crowds who where listening to his words and then to his disciples.
In fact on translation said "his followers".
Matt 23:1.
[b]Then Jesus spoke to the
crowds and to his disciples, saying.

Are jesus disciples brothers ? Yes , in a spiritual sense and not through blood or kinship.

I never said Matt 28:8 used adelphos cus they where all from same parent(s) and you have not proved their relationship.
The meaning of the word brothers here is same as when jesus told us who his mother and brothers and sisters are.

Acts 1:14-15.
This is how you contradict yourself and your arguments.
Apostles(12), Mary(1), some women(let’s assume they were twenty) and his brothers(X) = 120.
This means the brothers were about 87 in number.
Now either you accept that the brothers were family relatives or you explain to us how Mary gave birth to the about 87 children who were grown up when Jesus the first son just died at the age of 33/34.

1. You view is flawed, ur data on women is incomplete or innacurate, dnt use selective assumptions to come up with a theory.

2.if you do read the scriptures , you would have understood it.
Verse 15 is not talking about those who prayed or those in the upper room, it was talking about peters speech to those present.

During those days Peter
stood up in the midst of the
brothers (the number of people
was altogether about 120) and
said:

If you have read and quoted the scriptures, you would have seen that the verse began with "during those days" to signify that there was time difference consisting of days between when they came back and prayed and when peter made his speech. The number and qualification of people in the house would have changed. They would have been joined by others.

Now does the number 120 consist of only the step brothers of jesus, mary and jesus disciples. ? No.
The number 120 is the number of people present during peters speech and the verse did not mention who they were. That the verse use persons/people instead of brothers when mentioning numbers shows that some present where not brothers yet.
But does other verses add qualifications for people present other than brothers , disciples, women or mary? Yes
Verse 16 .
King James Bible
Men and brethren, this
scripture must needs have
been fulfilled, which the Holy
Ghost by the mouth of David
spake before concerning
Judas, which was guide to
them that took Jesus.

Verse 21
[b]Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us.

The selection of an apostle was focal point of peters speech.

1 Cor 9:5
After mentioning apostles, it would only be logical to mention disciples. So brothers of the Lord would be disciples and not blood brothers. Why would Paul be making references to Jesus’ blood brothers and not mention the disciples whom Jesus said were his brothers?

But the verse did not mention disciples, it mentioned the "lords brothers ". This mention was made for a reason , read the verse again know the reason why lords brothers was mentioned and not disciples.

Gal 1:19
Still, James the less. Son of Alphaeus (Clopas). Not a blood brother of Jesus.

It was james the half brother of jesus!

All these talk of Jesus blood brothers converting to disciples and apostles is not mentioned in the bible. So are you no longer s Sola Scriptura guy?

That the half brothers of jesus where present in the upper room with their mother shows they had accepted jesus. Remember jesus personally appeared to his step brother after his ressurection, in a similar understanding as that of paul.

What's sola scriptura guy?

Also, you falsely accuse St Jerome (who was in charge of translating the whole bible) of inventing a tradition and not referencing anyone earlier. Abeg show us one person before 383AD who taught or wrote that the brothers are blood brothers of Jesus.

Very funny request. Did you not read my post at all .
Let me show you again :

The majority of Bible scholars accept the cumulative
evidence that Jesus had at
least four brothers and two
sisters and that all were
offspring of Joseph and Mary
by natural means after the
miraculous birth of Jesus.
The arbitrary notions that
these brothers of Jesus were
sons of Joseph by a former
marriage, or by levirate
marriage with Joseph’s sister-
in-law, must be classified as
fictitious, since there is no
factual confirmation or even a
suggestion to this effect in the
Scriptures. The claim that
“brother” (a•del•phosʹ) here
means “cousin” (a•ne•psi•osʹ)
is a theoretical contention, the
invention of which is credited
to Jerome, and dates back no
earlier than 383 C.E

You did not show prove of the false accusation and you are now asking me to show you prove that I have been showing repeatedly since.!
The scriptures has explained to us the status of brothers in each of its mentions in the greek scriptures, non of them means cousin.!
You now want explanation on
Blood brothers by people during that time when the state church would have done bad things to them and burn the books. The scritures is a good enough example.

2. first born?
The greek word used in Luke is Protokon which occurs only thrice in the bible and does not in any place speak about a second child.

Whoever opens the womb is called firstborn both biblically and historically. Read Exodus 13:1-2.

In verse 7, the word “firstborn” (protokon) is particularly noteworthy. This term had above all a juridical-legal meaning, and designated the “firstborn” who was to be offered to God for his ransom (Ex 13:1-6; Num 3:12-13; 8:5-26; 18:15-16), who had the right to his father’s first and most important blessing, and who received a double inheritance in comparison to other sons. Therefore, the first son was called firstborn even if there were no other sons after him.

your refusal to quote the other two occurence shows you are hiding something.
Now let's see the other 2 occurence of prōtotokon in the scriptures.

1. Rom 8:29
because those whom he
gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Do you see that he was firstborn cus they where others involved? This others being also sons of God! (read verse 14, 16,17 and 19)
Jesus would have been called only son if there where no other sons sharing such similar sonship with jesus.
Key word: among!
The firstborn is an elevated position, but there must be others before such elevation can occur. So as to differenciate your position from theirs.

2 Heb 1:6
But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited
earth, he says: “And let all of
God’s angels do obeisance to
him.”

Angels are also sons of God in which jesus has become
better than the angels to the
extent that he has inherited a
name more excellent than theirs.(verse 4).
If the angels where not equally Gods sons, there will not be any need for jesus to be called firstborn!

Applying this to Luke 2:7 points to the fact that the writer acknowledges and knows that mary had other children , hence making jesus the first from the group of children.

You can never be first if there is no group.
You can never be elevated if there are no companions of similar heritage to be elevated above.
You can never firstborn if there are no other born(s)!(dnt mind the English).

3. Until.
The greek word for until is “heos”. Check through everywhere it is used. It means to, unto, till and until. They are used interchangeably.

1. Strong's Concordance
heós: till, until
Original Word: ἕως
Part of Speech: Adverb
Short Definition: until, as far
as
Definition: (a) conj: until, (b)
prep: as far as, up to, as much as, until.

2. NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Definition: till, until

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2193: ἕως
ἕως, A particle marking a limit,

(Latindonee,usquedum); as in
the best writings a. with an
preterite indicative, where
something is spoken of which
continued up to a certain time:

Do not let me and other readers search the scriptures endlessly for what you already know, pls show us where "heos" is translated to mean "to" in the Scriptures.

Matthew 11:12 uses until and it does not connote that something different will occur in heaven.

The question to you is, did something different occur in the way people seek the kingdom when Christ came?
The answer to that question will help you understand "until", as used by jesus.

And yes, Jesus was still in heaven even when he was present in Earth.

Show prove that why jesus was on earth, he was also present in heaven! Failure to do so shows that you just lied.

My question is based on jesus coming. Was he still sitted at Gods right hand?

There are mentions of God meeting Moses on a mountain. Would you say God left heaven to come talk to Moses?

Show scripture! , then we examine.

4. Jerome.

You are using someone’s lie to argue against Jerome. This is Jerome’s response to Helvidius. Just in case you did not know, Helvidius is only known because of this letter Jerome wrote.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm

If Jerome invented the cousin/
relative talk, how come Helvidius who was “teaching the truth” was not known and at the same time, show us one early Christian who shared Helvidius’ theory?[/quote]

Pls show me where I used helvidius lie o!

Read my post again and see what I posted, who I quoted and where the quote came from.
Note: the quote is not the basis for my belief or posts, its
Just to enlighten you to some facts.

5. quotes from church fathers on Mary’s perpetual virginity.

Origen
The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the first fruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the first fruit of virginity (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).

Hilary of Poitiers
If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary's sons and not those taken from Joseph's former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, "Woman, behold your son," and to John, "Behold your mother" [John 19:26-27], as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]).

Athanasius
Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that He took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary (Discourses against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).

We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).

It helps us to understand the terms "firstborn" and "only begotten" when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin "until she brought forth her firstborn son" [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin" (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]).
[/quote]

What do you expect your church fathers to say na. Do you expect them to say the truth and lose their position, wealth, power and authority?


Lastly: there are a lot of my posts and points which you deliberately ommitted in ur attempt to attack my views.
Ill encourage you to at least try to explain what something means when you are trying to prove me wrong.

And pls dnt tell me to look for any church fathers again, jesus has told us that that title or position is fake and false and came out of mans fleshly desires.

Imagine, expecting me to look for church fathers to support my views when everyone knows what happened to to those who had contrary views to the state church.

dolphinheart:
Why do you not reply by quoting the specific section in my post that you are making reference to. This ur method will not allow others to fully understand the discussion.....or maybe that's ur aim.

I already apologized and explained that earlier.

Cus jesus was not at that tree to see Nathaniel sitting down.
Would you not be astonished if I tell you all you did yesterday, even in the privacy of ur house?
Do you think its an ordinary thing to see someone sitting down under the tree far away from ur line of sight.?
The answers to that will make you understand why Nathaniel believed jesus cus of jesus statement.
Jesus did not only see Nathaniel , he told Nathaniel who he is!, which suprised Nathaniel.
I'm suprised that you view this as not magnificent and impressive and thus to be classified as glorious!
Maybe you expect something to be a physical manifestation before its glorious.

This is not an issue of knowing what happened a day before. There is no mention of Nathaniel being out of Jesus’s line of sight. Listen to what Jesus said in John 1:43-50 particularly in verse 48, “And Jesus said to him, "Before Philip called you, you were under the fig tree and I saw you."”

If I've done that you would not have been able to reply at all.

Actually I would. But that is not the issue at hand.

Who is talking about glory?

Dnt change the topic , glorious deed is different from glory.

A Glorious deed is a deed that reveals glory or that is a result of Glory. You can’t separate both of them.

Jesus has Told you several times that he has not done anything on his own, all he did are what the father had told him to do.
Mary's suggestion has no basis. Jesus would have done so, even if mary had not made the suggestion. This is the difference between what eve did and that of mary.

Okay. So Jesus had no free will and couldn't make any decisions because all he was to do was already decided by the Father? When Jesus healed those who asked for healing, were their pleas also without basis? Or would Jesus have healed them without them asking?

You dnt even know if mary's request was that jesus should bring money for them to go and buy more wine.

This statement shows the twisted logic you use to read the bible and draw points and arguments. Why would Mary ask Jesus to bring money to buy more wine? This statement is both unreasonable and unbiblical. Again, flawed logic is displayed.

I remember what jesus told mary when she made that suggestion, Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee?

“καὶ λέγει αὐτῇ ὁ Ἰησοῦς Τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί, γύναι; οὔπω ἥκει ἡ ὥρα μου.”
He calls her “Woman” on the 7th day at a wedding feast just as Adam called Eve “Woman” on the 7th day at their wedding.
And then he asks her “What does this have to do with me and you?”
http://biblehub.com/text/john/2-4.htm

And then dnt give her a headship position.
God did not give it to her when she had jesus, jesus did not give it her when he was on earth ( he even went further to tell you and I who his mother is), the apostles did not give it to her when she was with them, why then do you now give it to her even when the scriptures did not tell you to.?

In the Holy Family (Jesus, Mary and Joseph), Joseph was the head of the family and not Mary. The Church has never called Mary the head of the Family. Holiness and headship of the family are not the same thing. Stop arguing with a strawman.

Queen mother or queen of heaven is an earthly title that has no divine inspiration and the scriptures never mentioned any good thing about that title, not even one good thing!

The title which you say has no divine inspiration was instituted by the Davidic Kings in the Kingdom of Israel. It is even mentioned in a message from God.
Jeremiah 13:18: Tell the king and the Queen mother (Gebirah), 'Sit in a lower place, since your glorious crown has fallen from your head.

Haba!, is jesus not a descendant of eve?

Yes. But who is his mother?

You are the one tying the prophecy to mary!

We(Catholics) understand that the bible has a lot of layers and that passages are linked to each other and that many biblical characters are linked to each other.
When God spoke to the serpent, he was predicting the fall of Satan and so when he spoke of “Woman and seed”, he was pointing to “Mary and Jesus”.
When he was talking to the woman(Eve), he gave a punishment to she and her descendants.

Why are you now changing course, so the prophecy was not for eve alone, but for her and all her offsprings!
Dnt worry, you will still change it again.

Is that not obvious already? The punishment on Adam and eve was for all mankind. What change are you now speaking of? Note: what God said to the serpent was a punishment and prophecy while to the man and woman he gave only punishment.

Are you saying that the structure on family giving by God will change when we become perfect again?
What does giving birth in pain have to do with family structure?
Can you tell us if mary gave birth in pain?

I said and quote: “So obviously, sharpening the pain and he ruling over her refers to every human and to the structure of a family based on Marriage.”
I did not say that the family structure will change. Na you bring that one come.
Read what I wrote. giving birth refers to all humans. He ruling over her refers to family structure. Where did I equate giving birth in pain with family structure.
Mary gave birth without pain.

Quote the scripture you mentioned and let's see if you are right.

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." – John 3:36.
You can also check out the greek here.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-36.htm

I gave you an example of how people believe they will be purnished yet went along to disobey the command giving.

Did David disbelief God when he sinned? No. His imperfect state caused him to disobey Gods command, God did not purnish him for disbelief, he was purnished for disobedience. Disbelief is not disobedience!

To believe is to Obey. To disobey is to disbelieve. What is carried in the heart is shown through actions.

Did Satan disbelief God or disobeyed God?
Or do you think Satan does not know that they will die when he lied to eve?

Satan was not the one who committed sin na.

Again I tell you, eve was purnished for disobedience not disbelief, there explanation shows that they believed God but where deceived by Satan.
Rom 1:5
John 15:14

Romans 1:5 =” By whom we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith, in all nations, for his name;”
John 15:14 =” You are my friends, if you do the things that I command you.”

How do these verses show that they were punished for disobedience and not disbelief? I repeat To Believe is to Obey.

The above destroys ur view that mary was the ark cus she gave birth to jesus. Breaking the covenant did not stop eve from giving birth, therefore the covenant was not based on womens ability to give birth, but rather on their obedience to God.

The punishment for breaking that covenant was pain in child birth not inability to give birth. Why are you arguing with a straw man?

The punishments where for disobedience. All punishments associated with the ark was as a result of direct disobedience of Gods command respecting the ark. There was no punishment that has no law to guide it. Uzziah was punished cus he disobeyed Gods command, not because he disrespected it!


The question I asked is, So if the instruction was not giving and moses had worn his sandals into the holy ground, would he have shown irrelevance and disrespect to the holy ground ?.
You did not answer the question.

If the instruction has not been giving, would moses be purnished for wearing the sandals into the holy ground? No.
So he will be purnished for disobeying an order and not purnished for disrespect, same with the ark.
If moses have been told to remove his clothes there and he had not done it, he would have been punished. But that he was not giving such command, he was not punished for wearing his clothes into the holy ground.

They disobeyed by showing irreverence to what God asked them to reverence.
God asked them to reverence the ark because he had made the ark worthy of reverence. God is a sensible God, he does not just give laws for fun. He gave them the law because the Ark was made worthy of reverence by God.

Did you read the verses at all?

First king games Bible says: "But they, supposing him to have been in the company."

Holman Christian Standard Bible says: "Assuming He was in the traveling party, they went a day's journey.

International Standard Version says: They thought that he was in their group of travelers.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English says: "For they were thinking that he was with the children of their friends.

Does this verse not tell you that they know as a family that jesus was not with them,? that they thought he was with other people travelling in the same direction with them?
They already know he is not with them, but you want the scriptures to expand it to "he was not with the other children of mary". The point there is that jesus alone stayed in Jerusalem. That the verses did not mention other children of mary does not mean mary did not have other children . The context was on jesus and not the other children. And they where not dummies to be looking for him among their own children when they already know he is not among them. They had travelled for a day, it is enough time for a good parent to count her children and know one is not there, so why search among the children. You will search among the other travellers in which you initially believe he is among, not ur other children in which you already know he is not.!


Cus the story was about the custom of the parents, they did not mention directly that they took jesus Along, but the content of the story shows jesus went with them. If jesus had not stayed in the temple on that occasion, the story would not have been told like the previous 11 and next 17 years of that custom of Joseph and mary where not told.

Firstly, the bible does not mention the presence of any other children whether from Joseph or Mary. You were the one who brought up this passage to show that Mary had other children. Now you are admitting that the passage does not mention any other children. But you still want us to use non-biblical information or thinking to assume and accept that there were other children even when the bible does not mention it. Flawed logic again.

And did I say the verse used anepsios?

This is what I said :
[b]” Even the writer of Luke used the greek word for relative when refering to mary and elizabeth.”

So did the writer of luke not use the greek word for relative.?

The point is simple. Luke did not use the word for cousin “anepsios” which shows that even Luke (a disciple of the Learned Paul) still maintained the Hebrew way of referencing family members.
You might want to say that he did not use “adelphos” also. But then he was talking of woman and so using adelphos(brother) would be odd and so he uses the genderless word relative(syngenis).

That it was used at all shows you it was a known word in greek, and it was used where it was supposed to be used.

What is my arguement? That there is a word for cousin in greek, and that word was used in the scriptures!

What ur defence? That it was only used once! Imagine.
pls give us another place where it should have been used and it was not used.
If the Greeks do not use relatives, they will be more specific with the description of the relationship.
Trying to bring the Hebrew view into Greek writings in a wrong view.

Of course, it is a wrong view to you. But not a wrong view to the people who wrote the Gospel because they had to learn Hebrew, Aramaic and then Greek.

I already showed you Luke’s description of Mary and Elizabeth where instead of ANEPSIOS he uses SYNGENIS.

Yep, the other writers of the new testament are olodos and do not know simple greek words like the one used for "cousin.".

Lol. You act like say fishermen no follow among those wey write the bible. If you want to be truthful, you would admit that even in English there are terms that even university graduates do not know. The same is the case with the authors. Each wrote with the grammar they understood and based on the background they had.

Footnote: pls handle my posts the way I do urs so that all aspects of my post can be responded to.
These are things you did not respond to in ur post.

1.
A.So how do you honour ur biological mother, that is different from how u honour her spiritually
B.how do you honor ur mother spiritually.
C.how is Mary your mother.

2.. Other peoples children would not have been moving with mary so frequently mentioned in the scriptures if she had not been their biological mother. They would have been with their own mother, afterall they did not believe in Jesus untill after his ressurection.

3. The question I asked about Jesus sitting at the right hand of God until his enemies have been put under his feet has not been answered by you

1.
a. instead of listing unnecessarily. It is the same difference between how you honour your biological father and God your heavenly father(honour).
b. we honour Mary by calling her BLESSED! Just as she herself prophesied everyone.
c. She is my mother because she is the New Eve. The mother of all those who hold to the testimony of God which I do.

2. The bible never called them the children of Mary. The children are always linked to Jesus or Joseph. “Brothers of Jesus” and never “Children of Mary”
Read Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6:3.

3. JESUS WAS STILL IN HEAVEN EVEN WHILE HE WAS ON EARTH. As a member of the Trinity, Jesus who is God was in heaven while he was on earth.

I'll soon reply the others.

@Jolliano my broda u get time