See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong - Religion (7) - Nairaland
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| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by dolphinheart(m): 1:38pm On Nov 10, 2015 |
@ sistersister I'll be breaking my reply into different posts so that it wunt be too lenghty . It is common knowledge medically, scientifically, etc. that man/human beings have a mind, body and spirit. You do know this of yourself personally, yes? There is too much evidence to support this and is easily located online or offline. Yes man has it, like man also has conscience, feelings and water, that man has the three you mentioned does not mean that is what they are made of. In the book of genesis we were told how man came to exist and how he became to be a living being(soul). Two things where mentioned there, not three. The mind you made mention of is a function of the body, mostly the brain part of it. It is true to say that apart from an external supernatural force ( e.g the holy spirit, demons and angels) affecting ur body, the functions of your mind are directly affected and determined by what the body is able to physically assimilate to the brain through the senses of smell, sight, touch, taste, and hear. No thought of urs has come to play outside these body functions. To go further, when these body receives these information from the physical world, it also determines the minds response through the release of complex chemicals and enzymes in the body, which determine or aid our feelings and how we respond. Another example is when we examine a mad man. A mad man's mind can be corrected by physical drugs and the external control of information coming to the body in a controlled environment. Likewise a sane mind can be made insane the same way, to show you that our physical body is our mind, the body is being made active, animated by the spirit/breathe of life/force as the scriptures tells us, and when such force is no longer operational in the body, it will not be able to have the function of the mind. The scriptures never taught us about such trinity of man. Scripture shares that God is Spirit, though Jesus did take on humanity and dwelt among us during his earthly ministry.We will look at what the website says as see if it is right or wrong. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. John 1:1-2 (KJV) The quote of john 1:1 you posted is a translation of the Greek words in the manuscripts into English, pls can you find out why some Translators and scholars prefer to use "a God" " a divine being" in that verse.? This is a webpage you can start from. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_1:1 Pls Take note of the advise you mentioned on taking verses, we will use such advise in this discussion. My next post will be on the website you posted |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by dolphinheart(m): 3:01pm On Nov 10, 2015 |
@ sistersister Who is Jesus? Is Jesus God? [/b] http://This is false , as jesus never said "he was God", talkless of ”God almighty”. The site started on a false note. He made his identity the focal point of his teaching. another false note, he made the kingdom of God the focal point of his teachings. He told some of those he healed that they should tell, so that he can go about his preaching and teaching work in peace. The all-important question he put to those who followed him was, "Who do you say I am?" When Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, Mark 8:29-30 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Peter answered, “You are the Messiah.” Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him. Jesus was not shocked cus peter answered correctly, therefore he could not have rebuked peter. jesus is the messiah and not God almighty . He was sent by God. But the Jews had wrong hope for the messiah so revealing such info to the public at that time would not good. Jesus frequently referred to "My Father," and his hearers got the full impact of his words. We are told, "TheJesus even said God is our father, that the father is our God. Therefore if we take the statement made by jesus to mean jesus is God like the Jews wrongly understood. Then humans too are God, cus jesus and peter said that the father is our god and we can be his children and jesus brothers. 1 cor 8: 6 John 20:17 Heb 2:10-18 we that have more knowledge about jesus than those Jews showed know they had a wrong understanding of what jesus is saying. It is wrong for us to use their wrong understanding to describe what jesus is saying, jesus said he is the "son of God ", he did not say "he is God " 3 On another occasionIf you read the verses verry well, you will see that jesus showed them that he has the authority and power to forgive sins and heal the sick . He showed them that they where wrong in their views . Jesus told us in the scriptures that this authority was giving to him, he received it from the father to show you that at a time he never had such authority and thus he is not God. If we are to take jesus as God cus he can forgive sins, then we have to take the disciples as God cus they had the authority to forgive sins and the power to heal, even raise the dead. Can you see that the attempts so far by website to say jesus is God is so far false and full of holes? When Jesus was on trial for his life, the high priest put the question to him directly: "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?"Can you see again that jesus did not say he is God? He acknowledged that he is the son of God. And when he goes to heaven , he will be at the right hand of God . So close was Jesus'Why is all these possible between these two persons, it is possible cus jesus said " I do nothing of my own will , but what I see the father doing is what I do " . All jesus knows , he learnt it from the father. so far , you have not answered the question on if jesus is a person . Cus you said God is not a person. To be continued ....... |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by Nobody: 5:23pm On Nov 10, 2015 |
SisterSister: ok, how do you determine whether an older manuscript is false? 2. Sinaiticus and Vatican 1209 are identified by scholars as among the best manuscripts. Are you aware of this? Are u also aware that the first KJV is not what you have now, and that KJV was not the first translation. And in fact that KJV copied heavily from another translation, and that it was not just a rendering from the original? Could that be what God meant for us? Are you also aware that majority of those against the 1john 5:7 rendering are trinitarians? |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by Nobody: 7:50am On Nov 11, 2015 |
I never knew that I was this important o. Well , I am not here to debate anything but all my assertions are a product of my believe in one true God, Even the Lord Jesus Christ. I am depending on Him only to mould me into His likeness until that day when He comes for me an I will behold as He is. Amen. Am not much of an erudite scholar o but this your proton, atom and likes is a big basket, it holds no water! Una Doh! |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by dolphinheart(m): 1:29pm On Nov 11, 2015 |
@ sistersister Who is the Holy Spirit?The holy spirit is not s person. Jesus said he will ask the father for the holy spirit shows you that there is no equality between the jesus, the father and holy spirit. Have you ever wandered why no one has ever had a discussion with the holy spirit .? The Holy Spirit is not a vague, ethereal shadow, nor anNo scriptural proof to support the above. Moreover, the word "God the son' does not exist in the scriptures. Jesus said to His apostles...Can you see the bold, jesus categorically says that he had been giving authority! These helps is to understand two things 1. The was a time in which jesus did not have the authority he now has cus he was given these authority, these implies that jesus that at a time jesus was not God almighty . Jesus cannot later now be God almighty cus God almighty has always been God almighty with supreme authority. 2. That he was giving authority shows that their is someone superior to him who has giving him such authority. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And all the divine These statement is false. Secondly, can all the attributes of the holy spirit be ascribed to the father? If not, then they are not equal. When a person becomes born again by believing and receiving Jesus Christ (John 1:12-13; John 3:3-21), God resides in that person through the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 3:16). The Holy Spirit has intellect (1Cor. 2:11), emotion (Rom. 15:30), and will (1Cor. 12:11).As you can see, all the above does not put the holy spirit and the father as equals . For example, let's look at this scripture Acts 2: 32,33 "God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 ( jesus is)Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear." You can see from the above who gave jesus the holy spirit to pour down on his disciples. If the holy spirit had been a person, equality is far from each of them . Even David during his trying times begged the father, jehovah not to take the holy spirit away from him. This shows you that the father is the almighty God, the only true God as jesus specifically told us . There are others reasons that can be stated to show you that the holy spirit is not a person, but ill first like you to study on the Greek word "auto" as used in john 14:17 |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by plappville(f): 4:59pm On Nov 12, 2015 |
SisterSister: Jesus did not said in any verse that. I Jesus, "i am God/Yahweh " or do you have such verse in the bible? Am ready to learn please provide it thanks. |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by Richirich713: 5:35pm On Nov 12, 2015 |
Jesus never said " I am God " but does that mean he never claimed to be God, of course not. Nowhere in the new testament does the father say " I am God", so I guess using this type of logic we can say the father never claim to be God. |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by dolphinheart(m): 5:57pm On Nov 12, 2015 |
@ sistersister How can one God be three It is not only difficult to comprehend, but there are so many versions that one does not even know which one is the true version any longer. The only true God is the father, these jesus acknowleged in john chapter 17 I'm going to quote most parts of the chapter and show you(in brackets) how the father, son and holy spirit and not the only true God and how the son is not equal to the father. john chapter 17 1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. (jesus is Gods son, and not God the son) 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. (can you see that the authority that jesus had, to forgive sins, to heal, even to grant evalasting life was giving to him? He did not have it before, so he is not God almighty or equal to the father who gave him such authority and power and approval) 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (jesus makes it known to us that the father, whose name is jehovah is the only true God, not jesus, holy spirit and father ) 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. (and when jesus was glorified in his fathers presence, he was not made God almighty, he was told sit at the right hand of God almighty.) 6 “I have revealed you a to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. (jesus repeatedly letting us know who we belong to and who we should worship. He is also showing us how much loyalty he has for his God, the father) 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. (by virtue of inheritance) 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. (can you see that jesus being one with the father does not mean that jesus and the father are same or that they have same authority? Cus such analogy Cannot be applied here) 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.......... 18[b] As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.[/b] 20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be [/b]one as we are one[/b] 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.” To be continued....... 2 Likes |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by plappville(f): 12:15am On Nov 13, 2015 |
Richirich713: No bro, YAHWEH said it that He is God. Isaiah 43:10-13 10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. 11 I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from me there is no savior. 12 I have revealed and saved and proclaimed— I, and not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “that I am God. 13 Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?” Why do you say in the new testament? Is the NT the beginning of God's book? If Jesus didnt say it, dont you think it must be because He is not? Is it in our position to say things that Jesus didnt say? Just wondering how not believing in the trinity could affect ones salvation...  |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by Richirich713: 5:22am On Nov 13, 2015 |
plappville: I said the New testament not old testament. You believe the new testament nd old testament came from the same God. But since u said God must say " I am God ", hw can did u come to believe the Father is God ? U can't just assume the NT and OT goes together, prove that both teach Yahweh is God. Prove that the NT father claimed to be God , exact words " I am God " If u can't do that, then any1 using ur logic can never believe in the NT for they don't no if the father claimed to be God. |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by CAPTIVATOR: 8:07am On Nov 13, 2015 |
Richirich713: Yes , dont you ?
Tht was why plappville gave you that scripture , Isaiah 43:12
They go together , you cant separate them ... If you separate them then , the scripture is broken.You cant understand one without the other .Comprehende ? Mark 12:29 , Jesus Teach that Yahweh Is God
Yeeepa ! NT Father ? MR MAN , do we have two fathers |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by dolphinheart(m): 11:17am On Nov 13, 2015 |
Richirich713: Jesus said : john chapter 17:1-3,6 1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 6 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they He also said: John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" Keep on waiting for God to tell u directly that he is God almighty. He go do so shortly |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by Richirich713: 6:48am On Nov 14, 2015 |
CAPTIVATOR: Yes I do for I believe the NT doesn't have to have the father say exactly he is god, u believe the father has to say exactly he is God, so u have the problem If the father never said he is God in NT, hw did u conclude he is the same father of the OT? CAPTIVATOR: No u can't just go OT, u skipping argument straight to conclusion, prove first the father is the same father of the OT according to ur standards that he has to say " I am God ", even he doesn't say that hw can u conclude according to ur logic that he is the same father of the OT. Do u conclude it just on belief, skipping straight to conclusions ,cuz if that's the case, I believe jesus said he was God in OT, nd do not ask me to present any proof that Jesus said he was God in the OT, I will just skip the argument straight to the conclusion. CAPTIVATOR: U can't separate them? but according to u, you can separate GOD WORD FROM HIM , and u can separate GOD SPIRIT FROM HIM  Yes they go 2gether but u can't just skip arguments straight to conclusions, If a jew asked u to prove to him the father in the NT is the father of the OT. Hw wud u prove it, wud u say he should look at the character of the father in the NT, but that won't work since wen we show jesus has the same character, u say that doesn't prove his God. Then Wud u say "Yes but jesus never said I am God" Then I'm pretty sure he going to ask but wer does the father say he is God, so in the end u can't prove to him anything cuz ur logic prevents u from doing so. CAPTIVATOR: Nd wen we show the bible call jesus God, u reply jesus never claimed to be God cuz he never said exactly........ So using ur logic I can't conclude the father is God cuz I need those exact words. CAPTIVATOR: , no that's ur logic that's shows there's no God according to NT, cuz no1 said "I am God "And it's ur logic that's makes u conclude there are 2 fathers. |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by Richirich713: 6:51am On Nov 14, 2015 |
Character proves who God is. Any1 can say they are God but no one can be exactly like God. |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by SisterSister(f): 9:05pm On Nov 14, 2015 |
dolphinheart: [b] All the scriptures you shared say what they are meant to say. My question to you, what do you do with the scriptures below? John 10:29-31 (KJV) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. John 14:6 (KJV) Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Deuteronomy 6:3-5 (KJV) Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the Lord God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey. 4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: 5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. I can't emphasize enough how important it is to remain in content. It is not possible to just take scriptures here and there, all must be applied otherwise error is the outcome. [/b] |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by SisterSister(f): 9:33pm On Nov 14, 2015 |
plappville: [b] There is no verse in the Bible where Jesus uses the exact words, "I am God" but that does not mean he did not proclaim to be. In studying, historical background, the culture as it was then, what was considered as common knowledge and other factors one should be studied as well. It aids in keeping what is read in proper intent. A poster shared this verse but it is applicable here to answer your question. [color=#990000] John 10:30-33 (KJV) I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. John 10:30-33 (CJB) I and the Father are one.” 31 Once again the Judeans picked up rocks in order to stone him. 32 Yeshua answered them, “You have seen me do many good deeds that reflect the Father’s power; for which one of these deeds are you stoning me?” 33 The Judeans replied, “We are not stoning you for any good deed, but for blasphemy — because you, who are only a man, are making yourself out to be God [a].” Why would the Jews want to stone Jesus for saying he is a man? They wouldn't. As in the scriptures above and below, the Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying and what he proclaimed and this is why they wanted to stone him. John 8:57-59 (KJV) Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:57-59 (CJB) “Why, you’re not yet fifty years old,” the Judeans replied, “and you have seen Avraham?” 58 Yeshua said to them, “Yes, indeed! Before Avraham came into being, I AM!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to throw at him; but Yeshua was hidden and left the Temple grounds. Chapter 8, in the book of John is very interesting. Actually, the whole book of John can answer many questions that I cannot. [/color] [/b] |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by SisterSister(f): 9:40pm On Nov 14, 2015 |
@plappville, Another question came to mind. Who can send the Comforter/the Holy Spirit? It is only God. John 16:5-7 (KJV) But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? 6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:5-7 (CJB) But now I am going to the One who sent me. “Not one of you is asking me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 Instead, because I have said these things to you, you are overcome with grief. 7 But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I don’t go away, the comforting Counselor will not come to you. However, if I do go, I will send him to you. |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by SisterSister(f): 10:29pm On Nov 14, 2015 |
dolphinheart: The Holy Spirit is a person and part of the Godhead but when person is used, not a person like you and I. Maybe the word personage might assist instead? There is no verse that I'm aware of where someone is having a conversation with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a witness. And, what do witnesses do? They tell what they know in truth. The Holy Spirit, He speaks to the hearts of those that can hear God, through the life given in Jesus Christ. I'm not aware of verses that give exact wording of "God the Son" by there are numbers that say, "Son of God". To your answer #1, Jesus took on humanity, became flesh but He was still God. #2, There is so much more to this but position/relationship is involved. During Jesus' ministry on earth, again he took on flesh. Hebrews 1:8 (KJV) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Who is God speaking of in this verse? Jesus also gave authority/power: Luke 10:19 (CJB) Remember, I have given you authority; so you can trample down snakes and scorpions, indeed, all the Enemy’s forces; and you will remain completely unharmed. Luke 10:19 (KJV) Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. It is a very true statement supported by scriptures. The attributes of God the Father and God the Son, also applies to the Holy Spirit. "He has insight (1 Corinthians 2:10-11). He knows things, which requires an intellect (Romans 8:27). He has a will (1 Corinthians 12:11). He convicts of sin (John 16:  . He performs miracles (Acts 8:39). He guides (John 16:13). He intercedes between persons (Romans 8:26). He is to be obeyed (Acts 10:19-20). He can be lied to (Acts 5:3), resisted (Acts 7:51), grieved (Ephesians 4:30), blasphemed (Matthew 12:31), even insulted (Hebrews 10:29). He relates to the apostles (Acts 15:28) and to each member of the Trinity (John 16:14; Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). The personhood of the Holy Spirit is presented without question in the Bible". (Quote source: http://www.gotquestions.org/Holy-Spirit-gender.html)The word auto in greek means...self, one's own John 14:25-27 (KJV) These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by SisterSister(f): 10:55pm On Nov 14, 2015 |
JMAN05: What I was getting at, just because a manuscript is older does not make it credible or an authority. If it is false, it will always be false no matter how old the manuscript is. There is a lot that goes into determining the age, content, credibility, etc. of a manuscript. And, there are thousands of manuscripts. There are more accurate manuscripts for the Bible than many arts of literature (i.e. Plato) but the arts of literature are accepted as true. The answer to #2, I am aware there are scholars for and against the manuscripts you mentioned. We still have to do our own work, as it's our eternal life at stake. Yes, I am aware of the KJV and how it came to be. If God can put a man (Daniel) second in command under a pagan king to rule over the nation for many years and everything else that God has done, I am so very sure God is able to make sure we have what we need in his word, the Bible. God wills the best for us but we do not always accept it. Even, we reject alot. God intended for King Saul to be the king over the nation of Isreal but King Saul rejected what God wanted and King David took over the reign. God's will was for mankind to keep dominion over the earth but we rejected it and turned dominion over to satan. What we have in the KJV is what God wanted us to have and this is why is remains. The fruits from reading the KJV and other versions is clearly before the eyes of all who want to see. That's not to say that others can't read other versions and still gain a relationship with the true God. No, I am not saying that at all. Bottom line, no matter what version a person chooses to read, there is study time and spiritual growth work involved. Wherever we get off track, the Holy Spirit is there for guidance and will instruct appropriately. |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by SisterSister(f): 11:09pm On Nov 14, 2015 |
dolphinheart: The site information is true and speaks to the topic. There are no holes, only perceived holes. You have some really good questions but I am not the who can answer all of them. God is. 100% if you ask Him, He will answer your questions and more. It is helpful to look up verses in Hebrew/Greek, which can give a better understanding of some words used for God and words used for humans, etc. Taking a verse here and standing on it, while ignoring another verse can lead to error. |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by SisterSister(f): 11:40pm On Nov 14, 2015 |
dolphinheart: The simple of it is, does man have a mind, body, spirit and the answer is yes. There is no trinity of man. Man is made in the image of God, again God is not made in the image of God. I don’t really use Wikipedia for credible information, though it’s a start and does share information to lead one to other searches. There are scholars for and against. As well as almost 500,000 links on the topic. Whether some translators and scholars use certain words, especially if it is a modern translations seems on the lines of preference, copyright and monetary profit. Me, I don't want mans preference, I want what God has for me. So, would a better source be to look at a verse and see what God prefers, rather, intended. Which can be derived from the Bible first and then looking into other sources to help with clarity in questions, confusions, etc. An important part of clarity comes with study and prayer. Asking God to shed light on what in not clear which does requires a relationship with Him. Regarding the use of the word, "God" in John 1:1... "First of all, the same Greek word is used in both occurrences of the word "God" in John 1:1. This same word is used in many contexts, whether it refers to the Only True God or whether it is referring to a false god - such as a man-made god (1 Cor. 8:5) or Satan as the ‘god of this age’ (2 Cor. 4:4). The apparent differences in spelling between the word ‘God’ in the phrase ‘and the Word was God’ (‘theos’) and in other places, (even in the previous phrase, ‘and the Word was with God’ (‘theon’)) is due to inflection in the Greek language. Each Greek noun normally has 8 or 9 forms (cases & number) in which it can appear. (See my page on ‘Inflection’ and ‘Cases’ on the Web site). In the first instance in John 1:1 it is the object of preposition and thus is in the accusative case. In the phrase in question, it is in the nominative case (indicating the subject or predicate nominative - equal to the subject). But it is the same word for ‘God’, and in both phrases here indicates the One and Only True God. So the apparent difference is spelling is not because ‘theos’ is a different word than ‘theon’, but is a different form of the identical word". Quote source: http://www.ntgreek.org/answers/answer-frame-john1_1.htm |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by SisterSister(f): 12:39am On Nov 15, 2015 |
BETATRON: Each person has jurisdiction over themselves and no other (there are exceptions such as leadership, etc). In regards to what happens in our own life and after life, we make the final decision. People believe many things for many reasons experience or lack of it, history, facts, trial and error, etc. Everyone has a reason for believing what they believe but believing does not make it valid. In the book of 1 John, there was a division taking place in the church at this time due to heresy. John advised to test ALL spirits to see whether they are of God because many false prophets have gone out into the world. Do not just accept the beliefs and teachings because many people pretend to speak for God when they do not. Then, people met in houses and in scattered places for worship. Nor did they have immediate access to elders, as many traveled but now there were false prophets travelling from community to community, as well as true prophets. Those in alliance with Jesus Christ have victory over the spirit of anti-Christ, those working against God and his people. 1 John 4:4...“Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.” There is much more to this verse, as I am not a pastor and a pastor would be well versed to go into depth. I have studied the history of the Bible from many perspectives, pros & cons, etc. And, I still believe it is the inspired word of Almighty God. Constantine did merge and try to merge pagan practices but it doesn't take away what is true, nor did everyone follow. Constantine was a pagan just as many of us were before confessing Jesus Christ. Coming from a pagan way of life, just think of someone coming our of witchcraft. They will undoubtedly have many ingrained practices, beliefs, thinking, etc. that the Holy Spirit will bring to them for correction. God warned us there is false in the world, along with the truth. We are to test all spirits...teachings and beliefs to see what is and is not of God. Whether Constantine's conversion was true is between him and God. We are responsible for doing what God instructed us to do starting with ourselves. |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by dolphinheart(m): 11:35am On Nov 15, 2015 |
SisterSister:They tell us about the relationship between jesus and the father. It was jesus talking there. My question to you, what do you do with the scriptures below? Jesus is expressing the unity between him and his father. This does not mean jesus is the same person as the father or that he is equal to the father. Other scripture verses helps us to understand what he meant by "I and my Father are one." We read jesus words on mark 10:7- 8 :"For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. Another version renders it thus: and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Is the husband and wife one person?, do they exist in one physical body? are they given the same role and authority under a family in the scriptures? If ur answers to the above questions is no, then jesus saying that he and the father are one represents the unity he has with his father. Which is due to his absolute loyalty to the father as expressed in john chapter 17. Another scripture we can look at is the one mentioned earlier John 17:21:- That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may [b]be one in us:[b] that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. Jesus wanted two things here. He first wanted his disciples to be one. Since they are different persons, being one here signifies unity , unity Bourne out of love for one another(john 13:34). Jesus also wanted them to be one with him and the father. These statement annuls the view that jesus is equal to God or is God cus he and the father are one. Cus the disciples being one with them does not make them God or equal to God. Hope u understand. Can you also see that the holy spirit is not mentioned here, do you know why? John 14:6 (KJV) One fact is that jesus not the father, he is not the same person as the father. So what did jesus mean. The scriptures gives us the answer. John 5:19-20,30,37,46. 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do: for whatsoever things he does, these also does the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and [/b]shows him all things that he himself does: and he will show him greater works than these, that you may marvel.[/b] 30 I can of my own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father who has sent me. 37 And the Father himself, who has sent me, has borne witness of me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his form. 46 For had you believed Moses, you would have believed me: for he wrote of me." Here we know that jesus represents the father, he does the fathers instructions, he gives the fathers messages , he learnt from the father perfectly. So jesus did exactly as his father wanted him to do and in that way, if you see jesus, you have seen the father cus jesus is a perfect representation of the father. But jesus is not the father. Remember what God told moses in deut 18:18 " I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto you, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. These view is further supported by the following verses: John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. That is why jesus is the word of God. Deuteronomy 6:3-5 (KJV)Pls dnt get confused by the deliberate removal of Gods name in those verses. They have removed Gods name and replaced it with "Lord ". So who is the one God. John 17:1-3 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 1 cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. The scriptures has been consistent in telling who God is. It is never in support of trinity, and trinity will have to divide the scriptures for it to be true. |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by dolphinheart(m): 3:35pm On Nov 15, 2015 |
SisterSister:Pls can you use scripture to describe this Godhead and the holy spirit being part of it. There is no verse that I'm aware of where someone is having a conversation with the Holy Spirit.There is no verse simply because the holy spirit is not a person. The Holy Spirit is a witness. And, what do witnesses do? They tell what they know in truth.Look at what ur own king james version says: 1 john 5:8 "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. Is the water and blood persons too? Cus here they bear witness. If not, then the spirit bearing withness cannot be used as a basis to call the holy spirit a person. The Holy Spirit, He speaks to the hearts of those that can hear God, through the life given in Jesus Christ.Yes, the holy spirit as a force can do that. I'm not aware of verses that give exact wording of "God the Son" by there are numbers that say, "Son of God".There is none, the words where constructed by those who want to use it to support their views. The scriptures does not support such view. To your answer #1, Jesus took on humanity, became flesh but He was still God.The scriptures never said he was still God . Jesus said he received authority,he said he received power, he said he was given power and authority by someone. How can he now be God almighty!. #2, There is so much more to this but position/relationship is involved. During Jesus' ministry on earth, again he took on flesh.If it is imposible for one to assume the role of the other, then they are not equal. The scripture says" he became flesh". And even when he went back to heaven, he was subjected to his God. Hebrews 1:8 (KJV) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.God was speaking to jesus, but that same God clarified the position of jesus as not equal to him in the next verse Heb 1:9 ”You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy." So who is jesus' God? Who are jesus's companions that he was set above.? Why was jesus anointed? Jesus also gave authority/power: That jesus gave the disciples power and authority does not mean that the disciples where equal to jesus despite doing the powerful things that jesus did like healing the sick, casting out demons, raising the dead etc. Likewise that the father gave jesus power and authority does not make jesus equal to the father! What is the relationship between the power given to the jesus and that of the disciples? John again helps give the answer. John 17:2, 6-8,11-13 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 6 “I have revealed you a to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. (therefore, the power jesus gave to his disciples comes from the father) 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. 13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them." John 20: 21-22 21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. [/b]23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” Acts 1: 2 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, [b]after he through the Holy Spirit had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, said he, you have heard of me. 8 But you shall receive power, after the Holy Spirit has come upon you: and you shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 2:22 22 You men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as you yourselves also know: 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured forth this, which you now see and hear. So wateva power or authority given by jesus to his disciples, he received it from the father. It is a very true statement supported by scriptures.Did you check the scriptures quoted? I which you have quoted the scriptures with its accompanied statements. The word auto in greek means...self, one's ownWhere did you get this from? Pls post the source. John 14:25-27 (KJV) These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.And after quoting this, you still feel they are equal? After we had decided on what auto means, ill tell you more on my own view of the holy spirit, using the scriptures. |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by dolphinheart(m): 3:49pm On Nov 15, 2015 |
SisterSister:Haba!, you saw it where I said the scriptures never said or implied some of the things in that site. I also showed you, using the scriptures why there derived analogy is wrong and false. If you feel there are no holes, pls examine each of my points in my post and let's see if I'm right or wrong. You have some really good questions but I am not the who can answer all of them. God is. 100% if you ask Him, He will answer your questions and more.the scriptures gives us the answer. It is helpful to look up verses in Hebrew/Greek, which can give a better understanding of some words used for God and words used for humans, etc.You are very correct Taking a verse here and standing on it, while ignoring another verse can lead to error.I've not done that have I?, itold you my view on most of the scriptures you quoted , using the scriptures as guide. |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by Nobody: 10:42am On Nov 16, 2015 |
SisterSister: What are you talking about? I asked, how do you determine falsehood from an old manuscript? By what standard do you now weigh it since it is the oldest? Manuscripts are copied from the autograph. And latter this copied manuscript are further duplicated by copyists. Eg, A is copied from the autograph, and B is copied from A. Now, among A and B, which is the best? So I dont see the logic in stating if A is false it is false. If A is false, can't we say that B is even more faulty? If A is false, by which criteria do you arrive at that conclusion? Make a good point abeg. The answer to #2, I am aware there are scholars for and against the manuscripts you mentioned. We still have to do our own work, as it's our eternal life at stake. General concesus is that those manuscripts are the best. You can name those scholars that are against those manuscripts as the best, and state there position, let's see them. Also state there preferred manuscripts. Yes, I am aware of the KJV and how it came to be. If God can put a man (Daniel) second in command under a pagan king to rule over the nation for many years and everything else that God has done, I am so very sure God is able to make sure we have what we need in his word, the Bible. KJV borrowed heavily from another translation, not the original yet that is what God intended for you? So God is no longer interested in what was written by the apostles. He is now is interested in borrowing from a translation? Say something else pls. What we have in the KJV is what God wanted us to have and this is why is remains. The fruits from reading the KJV and other versions is clearly before the eyes of all who want to see. God intended a KJV for you, and the translation is constantly being revised. So which revision did God intend for you? And God is not even interested in the original. Which god do you serve if I may ask? |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by Pr0ton: 12:52pm On Nov 28, 2015 |
KingEbukasBlog: From your first response (about the long years it takes a cell to attain the human complex structure compared to the short nine months it takes now) it's safe to conclude arguing evolution with you will be fruitless as what you just argued shows your ignorance in some elementary topics in Biology that being without the knowledge of will be easily possible to reject evolution, alltogether no matter what. While, on the other side, having ample of such knowledge will make you see the possibilty in evolution, if not wholly (as a consequence of choice not to accept or lack of full understanding of evolution in whole, as my stand used to be sometimes) Ok. According to what I read in Biology books and, hence, how reasonably I can say such conception you have about the discrepancy in the timeline of human formation in the womb and its macro-"worldwide"-evolution shows your illiteracy in this aspect of Biology and the nonsense you finally ended up spewing. How best can I put this? Modification occured while evolution was going on. Genes (the principal carrier of the code that determines the formation of cells, hence the formation of organisms) were mutated, recombined in meiosis, resulting to a less obvious and/or significant difference in their functions and synthesis. These new characteristics became adaptive part of the affected species with the help of natural selection. Once part of it, it became the species' genotype and could pass on to its offsprings sexually or asexually(it's more efficient in the former) and either became part of the population or at most and reasonable times started a new population/deme. A million year apart between the species' "original" state (as ancestor) and it's new evolved state (as offspring) will definitely show a stark difference between the two in their genotype and phenotype. Then the idea of the offspring evolving from the ancestor at first glance would be unbelieveable, but not when one has come to understand the process that made it happen. This is just a rough basis of evolution. My target is the part of genes. Genes have the DNA as their primary message bearing substance. The DNA determines the appearance, characteristics and behavour of an organisms. An alteration in the nucleotide sequence of the DNA or a change in the DNA molecule will result to a change in the organism's aforementioned generalized properties. The alleles of genes (specific code of DNA) controlling our forms now is significantly different from what our ancestors had. When evolution got to humans (and other contemporary nonhuman animals) the system which genes operate has greatly changed. Homo sapiens didn't evolve directly as your argument helpless interpretes, but passed through modifications in their genotype so that they look and behave totally different from their ancestors, of course after millions of years. Every living organism will reproduce. And they reproduce according to their kind. That's the normal law governing reproduction. When the offsprings drift away from the kind of their parents, a mutation or recombination has occurred, leading to evolutionary change and the law broken. The offsprings however still have most of their parents' genotype. There are specialised genes in the germcells of living organisms. These genes work towards the production of another organism. Their mode and duration of production differ in different species. This is brought about by evolution/gene mutation. And that is why it takes seven to nine months for a cell to develop to a human form in humans and different duration in other species. Your argument about the discrepancy in the timeline of human formation in the womb is as stupíd as it seems. The two are not comparable, at least in this aspect. Only a dumb biology-crank dummy would compare the two and shamelessly bring it up as an argument. It's just stupîd. About abiogenesis and all, I can honestly agree to some of your rebuttals of the theory but when you resort to God of the Bible or any other religion in their books as your explanation for the cause of life and the universe I dismiss you at that point as I would to delusional naive weak fools, and I occassionally have time to help their madness. 1 Like |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by Pr0ton: 1:04pm On Nov 28, 2015 |
SisterSister: It's okay if you choose to believe absurdity because there are more who do, so that your absurdity don't become apparent. But just know you believe in absurdity, to those who can prove you do. Live a fulfilled life anyway! |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by KingEbukasBlog(m): 10:55pm On Nov 28, 2015 |
Pr0ton: Apparently you didn't answer my question . |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by KingEbukasBlog(m): 11:08pm On Nov 28, 2015 |
Pr0ton: I'm not resorting to the God of the Bible . You atheists have not yet shown why life needs no creator |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by KingEbukasBlog(m): 11:13pm On Nov 28, 2015 |
@pr0ton ... cows evolving into whales ? Come on man you are better than this |
| Re: See How This Equation And Analogy Prove The Idea Of The Trinity Wrong by iamlarry(m): 11:35pm On Nov 28, 2015 |
Many Christian denominations teach that God is a Trinity. However, note what the Encyclopædia Britannica states: “ Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. ” In fact, the God of the Bible is never described as being part of a Trinity. Note these Bible passages: “Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”— Deuteronomy 6:4. “You, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.”— Psalm 83:18. “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”— John 17:3. “God is only one.”— Galatians 3:20 |
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