₦airaland Forum

Empiree:
It looks like you are about to get it twisted. I can sense that. Before you rip me off, let me quickly post arabic word used in the verse bcus oni bara e n bole bo


16:102

قُلۡ نَزَّلَهٗ [size=20pt]رُوۡحُ[/size] الۡقُدُسِ مِنۡ رَّبِّكَ بِالۡحَـقِّ لِيُثَبِّتَ الَّذِيۡنَ اٰمَنُوۡا وَهُدًى وَّبُشۡرٰى لِلۡمُسۡلِمِيۡنَ

@bolded is "Ruh" which means 'pure spirit' is referred to Angel Gabriel in most cases throughout Quran



You can check other translations of the same verse. Ruh refers to Angel Gabriel.


Asad: Say: "Holy inspiration has brought it down from thy Sustainer by stages, setting forth the truth, so that it might give firmness unto those who have attained to faith, and provide guidance and a glad tiding unto all who have surrendered themselves to God."



Malik: Say, "The Holy Spirit (Gabriel) has brought it down piecemeal intact from your Rabb to strengthen the faith of the believers, and to give guidance and good news to the Muslims."



Pickthall: Say: The holy Spirit hath revealed it from thy Lord with truth, that it may confirm (the faith of) those who believe, and as guidance and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Allah).



Yusuf Ali: Say the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in truth in order to strengthen those who believe and as a guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

‏

promisechuks:

Empiree:
So you clear about pig meat or pork now or still believe it is edible?. What do you think of ur NT now?
Man please don't be deceived!

What enters a man's mouth can NEVER defile the person, making him a sinner.

Is it because people eat unclean things, that's what can make them lie, fornicate, be a paedophile and commit many atrocities? NO!!!

But as a man thinks, so is he.

We are not corrupt because we eat unclean things like pork, but because of what we think and bear in our heart and mind.

It is not the pork meat a man eats that urges him to bomb and kill innocent people but his wicked thinking.

Knowing this will let you know that, eating uncleans that you are comfortable with can't make you unclean.

promisechuks:
See urself!

They are deceiving u!

So, it is because of pork meat or unclean things that people eat that makes them to be terrorists, rapists and hardened criminals?

I want to understand you more.

Empiree:
Scholar8200:
The Bible clearly says the Word was God and that the Word became flesh and being found in fashion as a man, He made Himself of no reputation and became a Servant. Hence all those descriptions of human body etc are in order!
Empiree:
And which Bible version, who wrote it and did God or Jesus approve of it?. Christians believe God is omnipotent, omniscience....that He has no beginning nor ending.

But reading your same Bible, if you believe Jesus is God, then there is conflicts here bcus we read in the Bible about Jesus limitations. We read his beginning and his death. So you will have to question Bible writers how they got it mixed up.

And when he became flesh, which means his power was limited. Who was then the authority of heavens and controlling angels, water and sea, birds and animal and fishes, Jinn and other unseen while the flesh was on earth?.....did he put the heaven in autopilot grin

Schola8200:
For the same reason! Just when He said none is good but God alone, He wasnt implying that He was sinful but Yes, the Word had become flesh!
You really getting complicated.
Empiree:
This issue of Jesus being God and man at the same time is a theory borne of innovation. Since Jesus is the authority in Christianity, it only makes sense to confirm this theory from him directly. Where did he make statement like he was God that became flesh?

Sch8200:
Now did Mohammed mean he will open the gates of paradise to the person? But Jesus said He will send the Spirit and that the Spirit will come In HIS NAME.
Emp:
Sorry, he is not a gate-man. It is euphemism of saying "you are granted paradise" or "I grant you permission to enter paradise". Simple isnt?

Sch8200:
Now, do you mean Mohammed was referring to himself doing it when this was said:

Surah Al Hijr Chapter 15 verse 29

“When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.” [Al-Qur’an 15:29]

Emp:
You just got this wrong. Muhammad's word is not in the Quran. The verse you quoted is the word of Allah

Sch8200
But Jesus was referring to Himself in accordance with the prophecy of John the baptist that," He shall baptize with the Holy Ghost"

There is a difference!
Emp.
Reference?

Muslims have no problem with this statement at all. We have NO DOUBT that Muhammad {Allah's Peace and Blessings be upon him} and his followers will go to paradise. One of the common understanding of this verse is, a muslim who claims to follow Islam but he has bad attitude, he does not observe obligatory duties often (like skipping salat, not fasting ramadan or follow the rules, not paying zakat etc), such a person should not expect the prophet to intercede for him/her. We have to help ourselves first by obeying and observing religious duties.

As for the Hereafter, I seek refuge in Allah and he (i.e. the Prophet) knew that he was going to paradise, but he said "I don't know what He (i.e. Allah) will do to me and to you in this life. Will I be kicked out just as the Prophets (may Allah bestow His peace and blessings upon them) before me were kicked out? Or would I be killed just as the Prophets before me were killed?"

And this is the opinion that Ibn Jareer (i.e. Tabari) took and insisted that there should not be another opinion in this matter; for there is no doubt that this is the suitable explanation that suits the Prophet (peace be upon him). This is because in regards to the Hereafter it is certain that he (i.e. the Prophet) will go to paradise along with those who followed him. And in regards to this life, he didn't know what was going to happen to him or the polytheists of Quraysh. Were they going to believe, or disbelieve and be punished and extirpated for their disbelief?


Now, dont we we similar statement of Jesus in the bible? Jesus said i can do nothing

"But He will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' Luke 13:27

Why wont Jesus just 'forgive' them since he has power to do so according to you?

"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Mark 13:32

Why he does not know this?^

Sch8200:
Are all true believers? Even Jesus withdrew from some that appeared to believe on Him because He knew they were not wholehearted! So divisions etc does not nullify the Word!
Emp:
No no my friend. We are dealing with Christian doctrine and matter of SALVATION here. If some Christians believe Jesus is God and some believe he is not, if some Christians believe in trinity and some christian dont, if some Christians believe Jesus is son of God and some christian dont, this is clear contradiction and confusion. It means christians do not know Jesus identity but fallacies and hearsays. This is matter of salavation not to joke with. It is not a matter of moral or judgement that may be forgiven. When it comes to SALVATION, Jesus proclaimed God is One. Where did you get trinity from (3 in 1)?

Who said so?
Your Bible. Your Bible confuses you. At some point it portrays Jesus as a separste being from God. In another places, they are portray as same one. For instance, where they supposed to use lower case 'he' for Jesus, bible writer(s) use capital case 'He'. Same applies to 'Son' or 'son'. 'Me' or 'me' etc Then christian get confused. Bible writers really put in perpetual doubt.

Sch8200:
And both are Perfect in One:
that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee,
John 17:21a
Emp:
grin grin grin And why didnt you complete the verse?. You left this out

".......that they {disciples} also may be one in us:...."

So it is actually more than 3 gods. It is now 3+12 disciples = 15 (at the minimum) grin Dont let Dr. Zakir Naik , tola9ja, rilwayne001 hear about this. You would be laughed at

Sch8200
To know Who Jesus was read the NT? Not the views of men. Yes Jesus approved of the NT! Both the Gospels and the Epistles!
Emp
Lol....now Jesus approved NT?. But earlier you said he did not read NT, that he aleready ascended to heaven before NT was written. I hope you aren't trying to me do me wayo.

@underlined, isnt the same Bible you all read that got you confused in the first place?. I am sure if you ask 10 christian who is Jesus, you would get different answers. This video is a hint. It is only 10 mins long. Or watch from 4mins to see confusion grin

Sch8200
The presence of the counterfeit (and there are many) shows there IS an Authentic! The basis of test is the Word! The early Church is an example! Going through Acts you will find a number of times that they all acted with ONE ACCORD, this Unity still exists not necessarily within a denomination but among true believers scattered all over the World!
Emp:
I am not concerned about factions. I am talking about doctrines. There are factions in Islam as well. But non of them believe Muhammad is God. But you said among believers(Christians) all over the world, it is "one accord". Whats that accord?. The only thing i can think of is you all call yourselves "Christians". That's it. Your doctrines differ. How is Jesus is God and Jesus is not God as believed by Christians (Unitarian and Trinitarian) could be same road to salvation? These are clear different doctrines led by "holy ghost"

What does the highlighted mean?
This is for muslims actually. I can relate to this because i grew up experiencing this. However common translation of the verse does not want to bring about controversies. As a result of that they put in parenthesis (at the time of death). Like this:


"Verily, those who say:, "Our Lord is Allah", and, further, stand straight and steadfast, the angels descend on them(at the time of death): "Fear ye not!", "Nor grieve! but receive the Glad Tidings of the Garden (of Bliss), the which ye were promised!" (41:30)

Further intuitive interpretation of the verse indicates that a true muslim who is firm on La ilaha illah Allahu i:e there is no deities worship of worship except Allah, whose deeds in the open and secret conform with shahada and is steadfast on dhikr, the angels (of lower ranks) not Gabriel or Michael etc, descend on such muslim. You dont see them of-course but feel their presence. It's up to them if they want to speak to you. and you would hear them. If at all they want you to see them, they would appear in human form. NEVER in their true form or else, you dead. This is a sign of righteousness but still does not guarantee paradise. There are some people who are righteous in conduct all their life. But when they old and near death, their behavior become gross and evil. And they die like that. What a sad ending. May Allah protect us from that. It is probably due to overconfidence.

Tafsir(commentary) of this verse says these are 5 most powerful prophets and messangers of Allah. Now if Jesus is God because John(p) said his greater than him, then you may want to consider Muhammad to God since he too has authority to choose who goes to paradise.

John said Jesus was before him meaning Jesus had been before he, John, was born!

The First People to Enter Paradise:

The first of mankind to enter Paradise will be our Prophet Muhammad (saw) and the first nation to enter Paradise will be his ummah. The first member of this ummah to enter will be Abu Bakr as-Siddiq (ra).

After the Word became flesh,He totally humbled Himself and assumed the reputation of a Servant so expecting Him to say I am God is not something you will find.
This is a theory that has no basis whatsoever. It is been around for too long and does not make sense. Father humbled Himself to be servant and son. And ultimately allowed himself to be nailed?. Fantastic!

Because this Gospel does not support Divinity of Jesus it is refuted? smh.

At underlined, which Gospels are they?. I dont know of any 'real Gospels' among the extant ones. And "son" of God, which has been thrown around for yrs does not have weight anymore because there are other Sons of God and even daughters of God. Even "unique sons of God. All of them are in the Bible. So why is Jesus being 'son' of God definitive?.
[/quote Matthew, Mark, Luke and John! Because Jesus was, is and ever will remain the Only Begotten!


[quote]Empire.e:

I leave you with this verse again


"O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs." Sura 004:171

scholar8200:
Were these not the same people Muslims were asked to get clarification from being accused of exceeding limits? How do we reconcile this? And if the Quran was completed between 609-632, it means the Trinity was not a 17th century addition after all but had been there all along!

And have you not exceeded the limits in your religion by declaring Jesus is God, Son of God, that the Father came down and humbled Himself and transformed Himself to servant and

Scholar8200:
by this question i see that you did not read my replies!

here is the problem! These quotes do not give any judgement or retribution! Why? They are purely ceremonial not moral! These ceremonial laws are not carried into the NT. But the moral laws with higher demands are found in the NT! Why? because grace is available to enable us do them!

Glad you asked!
The Seed of Abraham, the One through Whom the New covenant was to be sealed (He Himself said so) was to be He through Whom all the nations of the World (not only Abraham's biological descendants) would be blessed!
Psalm 22 was a prophecy of David on the death of Christ and it ends by showing that the Gentiles will be brought into this covenant in keeping with God's promise to Abraham
Psalm 22:27
All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord and all kindreds of the world shall worship before thee same Psalm 72:11,
Psalm 98:3
Isaiah speaking of the renewal sealed it up thus:
...It is a light thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob(Israel)...I will also give you for a light to the Gentiles, that you may be my salvation to the ends of the Earth
Note the repetition of the ends of the earth, all the world etc in keeping to God's promise to Abraham.
there are many prophecies on the New Covenant and the benefits therein and the fact that the Gentiles are to be included!
In summary, the New Covenant is the Gospel!Jesus alluded to that in Matthew 26:28, Luke 24:44-47.


That is why when He came and some did not receive Him, as many as received Him were given the adoption!


The OT was sealed only when Israel indicated there commitment thereto Exodus 24:7,8 (note the role of the blood)! The NT is enforced only in those Who receive Him ie believe on His Name (not as a mere prophet)
Hence we have Christians who are jews and hristians who are gentiles. Any who truly believes is brought in and we become one in Christ!
So it did does not drop on Isreal by force, commitment of faith must be expressed!

Jeremiah was not the only one who prophesied such! Ezekiel did, Isaiah did etc In fact, Malachi called Jesus Lord and the Messenger of the Covenant:
Malachi 3:1
... And the Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come...even the messenger of the Covenant...

Hence any claims should agree with all the prophecies!

I see. Jesus said My kingdom is not of this world. Hence we Christians cannot form a parallel govt with laws to punish societal offenders! That is why we have the govt in place.


Well, there is a separation of state from faith. Besides, no true believer will go to steal! If he does, either he has fallen or was never in: The detailed communal laws in the OT was so because a nation was just being born and God wanted it to be Theocratic! Now gentiles who believe are not called to try to make not their communities Theocratic, but their own lives and thus they have a positive influence.

Scholar8200:
When a command in the OT was moral, the judgement for disobedience was either death, being cut off, and was described as an abomination to God! Now was this said about pork?
Pray were Pigs in Eden? How come God made morally unclean animals? Were Pigs is Noah's ark? Why didnt God seize that opportunity to wipe out the unclean animal? Summary? They were ceremonially tagged not as though they were intrinsically unclean.
Besides, Jesus clearly and openly declared that meats do not defile! Rather it is the sins that come out of a sinful heart! Mark 7:18-23
Pls let's not discuss this any further till you have read that reference.

vzkpswaqnkhgytd:
This is why the final Testament, the Quran was revealed. Makes everything clear and simple to keep us on the straight path.

Scholar8200:
Well, the Law was given to Israel, notice that the Gentiles (who made no distinctions between meats) then were to be admitted to Israel's passover only if they yielded to circumcision nothing was said about meats to them. Even in Acts 15:28,29, only a minimal part was, through the Holy Spirit's leading handed to them. The goal of the NT is reconciliation to God and holiness of heart and life, not proselytizing of Gentiles to Jewish practices.

vzkpswaqnkhgytd:
Quran is the final word. I stand behind every word. Quran is uncorrupted, free of any crookedness.

promisechuks:
Please, ignore your ignorance and answer my question.

How does eating pork defile people?

Your brother that are disturbing the whole world now, is it an unclean things they ate that made them to be terrorists?

Man's corrupt conscience is not as a result of eating unclean things but because of what they think.

What I am saying here is logical.

AlMuflihah:
U see those points up dere are very true...i'm a biochemist okay... camel's urine is now being used in modern day medicine as it contains anticarcinogens and anti toxins,it has tremendous health benefits...scientists are working on d correct dosage for medical treatments...it's used in treatment of skin diseases...and hair too...modern day science has proved prophetic medicine as authentic...go an ask google

Empiree:
Listen, let me do a little breakdown. When it comes to specific tasks, Quran either mentions specific name of the Angel or prophet. It also uses general term like messenger for Angel Gabriel. It depends on the wordings. For instance,

"....then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. — Quran, sura 19 (Maryam), ayat 17

If we want further research, we look into tafsir(explanation) to see which Angel God is talking about. And that is Gabriel talking about in this verse



Similarly, angels also came to ʾIbrāhīm (Abraham) in human form, and he was not aware that they were angels until they told him so. Lūṭ (Lot) also had angels come to him to warn him of the impending doom of his people. All angels praise and glorify God and they never become tired of doing this.

They celebrate His praises night and day, nor do they ever flag or intermit. — Quran, sura 21 (Al-Anbiya), ayah 20


Also mentioned them by general terms in this verse.

"O ye who believe! save yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is Men and Stones, over which are (appointed) angels stern (and) severe, who flinch not (from executing) the Commands they receive from Allah, but do (precisely) what they are commanded.

— Quran, sura 66 (At-Tahrim), ayah


Here they are called messangers. The Quran also mentions that angels have qualities that may be typified by the word wings:


"Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, Who made the angels, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four (pairs):...

— Quran, sura 35 (Fatir) ayah

The preceding sentence does not imply that all angels have two to four wings. Most notably, archangels (namely Gabriel and Michael) are described as having thousands of wings.


According to hadith collected by Muhammad al-Bukhari, Muhammad said that Gabriel possessed 600 wings;

Narrated Abu Ishaq-Ash-Shaibani:

I asked Zir bin Hubaish regarding the Statement of Allah: "And was at a distance Of but two bow-lengths Or (even) nearer; So did (Allah) convey The Inspiration to His slave (Gabriel) and then he (Gabriel) Conveyed (that to Muhammad). (53.9-10)[13] On that, Zir said, "Ibn Mas'ud informed us that the Prophet had seen Gabriel having 600 wings."


Does this sound like "angel" that dwells in you as Christians believe?. What I am trying to tell you is that Allah mentions Angel directly and indirectly in the Quran. For instance,

Gabriel (Jibreel) and Michael (Meekaal) are mentioned early on the Quran in sura Al-Baqarah:


"Say: Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel-for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by Allah's will, a confirmation of what went before, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe,- Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and messengers, to Gabriel and Michael,- Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith. — Quran, sura 2 (Al-Baqara) ayat 97-98


Another angel, Maalik is defined in the Quran as a being who is the warden of Hell. However Maalik is not an evil angel, nor a fallen one, a notion Islam rejects, rather Maalik is merely doing what he is commanded to do by God.


"They will cry: "O Malik! would that thy Lord put an end to us!" He will say, "Nay, but ye shall abide!" — Quran, sura 43 (Az-Zukhruf ) ayah 77

AlMuflihah:
Who can be one's closest companions if not one's wife/wives, relatives And friends... go an do research ,i know u wunt do as U are too dull to understand...

The Angel of Revelation, Jibreel (Gabriel), who is recognized by all the People of the Book [Jews and Christians], came to him, and when he received revelation, there were unusual effects on him that indicated the intensity of the effort involved in receiving the Message of Allaah from Jibreel, upon whom be peace.
His Companions witnessed this when he received Revelation, and they believed that the revelation was something that came from an outside source and was beyond his control; it came to him from (Allaah), the Wise and Praiseworthy.

Allaah supported the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) with physical miracles, with which he challenged his people. Among the most important of these were the splitting of the moon and the Night Journey to Bayt al-Maqdis (Jerusalem). They were unable to match these miracles, and so they were a decisive, divine testimony to the truth of his Prophethood (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

Allaah supported him with miracles and evidence for people of reason and understanding, the greatest of which was the Qur’aan. This was the greatest sign, which contains in its pages miracles of both style and content, which all of mankind cannot match or imitate, even if they gather together for that purpose. This is clear from the statements of the most eloquent of the Arabs, who were completely unable to match it. The Qur’aan was – and centuries later still is, praise be to Allaah – an eternal miracle as is evident in its brilliant style, its information about the Unseen, its fulfilment of the promises of Allaah, the superiority of its laws, and the fact that its rulings are appropriate for every time and place – in addition to the fact that it has such a moving impact on people’s hearts.

The Qur’aan refers to the signs and proofs surrounding the person of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), which testify to his truthfulness. For example, he was free of sin and trivial spitefulness; he grew up illiterate in the Arabian Peninsula, and did not receive any religious knowledge from beyond its borders, nor did he spend time acquiring any religious knowledge. When he reached the age of forty, he brought divine knowledge that none of the earlier or later generations could produce. He also received special protection and care from Allaah, which kept him safe at times of crisis; if it were not for this protection he would most certainly have been doomed to destruction. None of this could have happened except to one who was truly sent from Allaah.

His coming was foretold in the Tawraat (Torah) and Injeel (Gospel), and some of the People of the Book saw that these prophecies applied in totality to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), which led them to embrace Islam. There are still passages in the Bible, in both the Old and New Testaments, in the versions that are accepted by the People of the Book, that clearly refer to the prophethood of muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam

Scholar8200:
Sure HE is.

That's because, the Word became Flesh

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:1-2,14

Father spoke from Heaven after He (Jesus) was baptised. That tells you God was on the Throne all along!

The nearest you will get is where HE confirmed His being with the Father (as John 1:1,2 confirms) from the beginning:

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had [size=13pt]with[/size] thee before the world was.
John 17:4,5

Okay he grants permission to people to enter paradise? This verily contradicts:

Muslim also reported from Anas that the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "I will come to the gates of paradise and ask for it to be opened. The gatekeeper will ask, "Who are you?" I will say, "Muhammad". The gatekeeper will say, "I was ordered not to open the gate for anyone else before you"". [Saheeh Muslim]

Who will give this order? That must be the one that grants access then not Mohammed!

You believe he will go there but does the Quran agree with the hadith that he will be the one to grant permissions for who enters?

Which part of the Quran agrees with this hadith being Muhammed's claims? (since that is the measure for accepting and rejecting hadiths).

The Prophet (PBUH) said, "Whoever guarantees me (the chastity of) what is between his legs ( i.e. his private parts), and what is between his jaws ( i.e., his tongue), I guarantee him Paradise." Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 8.799 Narrated by Sahl bin Sad

Hear John:
16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Luke 3:16
He was not just another prophet! Now hear Jesus confirming same and setting John 14&15 in proper perspective for all time:
4 and, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me(referring to John14&15). 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Acts 1:4,5

Okay. As regards the highlighted, that was said after the Word became flesh and assumed the form of a Servant.

There is NO repentance after death! It's a Divine principle.

Because, at this point, the Word was flesh and had willingly subjected Himself to the limitations of mortal man!

You are wrong. It's 3 in 1 not 1 in 1! The use of lower case points to the time of the translation and the need to be faithful to the mss to the details!Even the OT uses he for the Father!

Not so fast! This was the basis of their being One in Us:
John 17:23a
I in them, and Thou in Me...! (Christ Who was ONe With the Father dwelling IN the believers)
Your mistaken supposition would have been correct if Jesus had said I WITH Thee and They WITH Us!

You appear to have forgotten the place quoted: Here is it:
John 15;26a,27
But when the Comforter is come...he shall tetsify of me.you also shall bear witness because:YOU HAVE BEEN WITH ME FROM THE BEGINNING

I have already pointed out the antichrist group as given in the NT. The measure for knowing the truth is clearly given!

Are those versions right for adjusting that part to suit their opinions or that of their detractors?

(We condemn the Greeks for cutting off 1 John 5:7, we disclaim the versions that make grievous changes and we hail thee Vaudois for upholding every jot in the Word at the expense of their lives!)

Again, is there a passage in the Quran that backs up the hadith that said so?

So where is Jesus, Abraham, Moses now? Especially Jesus?

I believe the highlighted is a deliberate attempt at mockery especially when a lot has been said regarding this issue namely the Father being distinct from the Son and yet being One. No problem.

Before you fight for it the author of this 'gospel' tried to incorporate Islam into one of the Gospels but contradicted Islam. Take a vacation here:
https://www.nairaland.com/2912069/gospel-barnabas-laid-rest

Empiree:
Scholar8200:
Sure HE is.
Who is He (referring to omnipotent, omniscience).....God or Jesus?

Yes, i knew it is all about John. This begs the question of plagiarism actually. This prologue is intended to identify Jesus as the eternal Word (Logos) of God. Thus John asserts Jesus' innate superiority over all divine messengers, whether angels or prophets. Here John adapts the doctrine of the Logos, God's creative principle, from Philo, a 1st-century Hellenized Jew. Philo had adopted the term Logos from Greek philosophy, using it in place of the Hebrew concept of Wisdom (sophia) as the intermediary (angel) between the transcendent Creator and the material world. Some scholars argue that the prologue was taken over from an existing hymn and added at a later stage in the gospel's composition.

And by the way; the doctrine of logos was originally created by a Jew(Philo), not a Christian, so it kinda debunks trinitarian claims.

When one copies material and presents it as his own; thats what we call plagiarism; how is plagiarized material considered 'Word Of God' by Christians?

A Muslim debater and the author of Muslim Christian Dialogue, by H.M. Baagil argued that John 1:1 is a clear mistranslation of Greek word

Theoú i:e God's {indicating possessive noun} was mistranslated as Theós (God). Which means Jesus is a word "Be! and he was" which preceded from Allah. That's Jesus is creation of God. He is not God. Refer to attachment below

Sch8200:Father spoke from Heaven after He (Jesus) was baptised. That tells you God was on the Throne all along!
Emp:
This is utterly irrelevant soon as John 1:1 is trashed. I know you are unconsciously blaspheming God. I dont blame you at all. And I am not mocking you. But you really need to stop this dangerous doctrine and ponder carefully.

Sch8200:
The nearest you will get is where HE confirmed His being with the Father (as John 1:1,2 confirms) from the beginning:
Emp:
I advice you to get free copy or download a free book titled Muslim Christian dialogue by H.M.BAAGIL.
http://www.sultan.org/books/muslimchristianialogue.pdf

Sch8200
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
John 17:4,5
Emp:
Please refer to the attachment. John 1:1 explained.

Sch8200:
Okay he grants permission to people to enter paradise? This verily contradicts:

Muslim also reported from Anas that the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "I will come to the gates of paradise and ask for it to be opened. The gatekeeper will ask, "Who are you?" I will say, "Muhammad". The gatekeeper will say, "I was ordered not to open the gate for anyone else before you"". [Saheeh Muslim]

Who will give this order? That must be the one that grants access then not Mohammed!

You believe he will go there but does the Quran agree with the hadith that he will be the one to grant permissions for who enters?
Emp:
We have no problem comprehending this hadith at all. It is Allah who has the Final say. He is the One Who grants paradise. None else. It is He {Allah} alone who gives the Order. It not Jesus not Muhammad(pbut). Statement like this in the hadith pretext and under the umbrella of intercession granted the Muhammad(p).

Nutshell, a Muslim who observes obligatory duties to the best of his ability and do good deeds as much as he can, even if he has minor misdeeds or even bad deeds, prophet Muhammad(p) will still intercede for him/her. If the prophet(p) intercedes for any muslim, it is incumbent on Allah to accept his intercession. He(p) intercedes for a muslim knowing fully well he/she already met requirements. This is my little way i can explain the hadith. I know there are better explanation of it. The intercession of the Prophet is nothing more than Honor that Allah (swt) has given him. He is granted right of intercession as reported in Hadith no: 331:


Allah's Apostle said, "I have been given five things which were not given to any amongst the Prophets before me. These are:

1. Allah made me victorious by awe (by His frightening my enemies) for a distance of one month's journey.

2. The earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying and a thing to perform Tayammum. Therefore my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due.

3. The booty has been made Halal (lawful) for me (and was not made so for anyone else).

4. Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation exclusively but I have been sent to all mankind.

5. I have been given the right of intercession (on the Day of Resurrection.)

Okay. As regards the highlighted, that was said after the Word became flesh and assumed the form of a Servant.
I will ask you same question asked in the book i posted. Who is God?. Who is Holy Spirit or Ghost?, Who is Jesus?. You do not need to sweat to answer this. Very simple question. Muslims can answer this question in a simple word.

There is NO repentance after death! It's a Divine principle.
Okay. I see you used capital NO which means it definitive. How about a christian (he/she does not believe Jesus is God, only believe Jesus is son of God). What happens to such christian?

Sch8200:
Because, at this point, the Word was flesh and had willingly subjected Himself to the limitations of mortal man!
Emp:
And at the time he became flesh and subjected Himself to the limitations, remember you used capital H for Himself to denote God, The Supreme Being. At that time, i assume He was already on the earth and weak (no offense intended). Who was the authority in the Heavens at that moment He was in flesh and dwelt among humans?

Sch8200:
You are wrong. It's 3 in 1 not 1 in 1! The use of lower case points to the time of the translation and the need to be faithful to the mss to the details!Even the OT uses he for the Father!
Emp:
Okay 3 in 1. I got it. Now this is even more complicated. So this is "trinity" right?. Father Son and Spirit. Who is Father?, Son, and Spirit?. Are they same thing or different personalities?. Now refer back to quote rightly above this. Since you said they are 3 in 1 which means they move together as supposed. In other word, when the flesh was on earth, whatever that means, it means all 3 were on earth at the same time in flesh, correct? Who was governing the rest of the planet at that point the flesh suffered limitations?

Sch8200:
You appear to have forgotten the place quoted: Here is it:
John 15;26a,27
But when the Comforter is come...he shall tetsify of me.you also shall bear witness because:YOU HAVE BEEN WITH ME FROM THE BEGINNING
Emp:
Obviously, that statement fits prophet Muhammad wholeheartedly. Muhammad(p) praised Jesus, recognized Jesus, told us story of Jesus from the scratch. So where is rhe holy spirit that brought and testified about Jesus, where is he?. In this translation posted used "comforter" not holy spirit. Who is that comforter?

Emp:
Now compare that statement of Jesus with what Quran claims Jesus said:


"And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic." Surah As-saf (61:6)


Sounds familiar?.


Remember that same passages of the Bible even further to say "comforter" would glorify him(Jesus). I am sure you read in the Quran where Jesus is glorified and his status is higher in the sight of Allah. Then in the hadith there are bunch of stories about Jesus and statements of Muhammad talking and praising him and he being praised by Jesus, too. Good to know that you came up with "comforter". Other translation used helper, advocate, Paraclete etc. So basically, Bible writers played you guys with 'holy spirit'. We believe in what Quran says and thats what Jesus uttered. He(Jesus - p) mentioned Muhammad by name - his other name Ahmad. Ahmad means "highly praised" etc. Sounds familiar?.

Keep it simple. Are those Christians who do not believe Jesus is God, who do not believe in trinity any less Christians?. Are they going to hell?. Those people do not consider themselves antichrist. I have them in my friends cycle. they are not occult. They firmly believe Bible support their doctrines.

Sch8200:
(We condemn the Greeks for cutting off 1 John 5:7, we disclaim the versions that make grievous changes and we hail the Vaudois for upholding every jot in the Word at the expense of their lives this being the version in agreement with the KJV!)
Emp:
We dont omit any verse from the Quran or add to it. What you said here confirms distortion of the bible. Correct?

Sch8200:
So where is Jesus, Abraham, Moses now? Especially Jesus?
Emp:
Barzakh (Purgatory). The Stage Between this World and the Hereafter. Not only prophets but all mankind since the time of Adam until Judgment Day. Technically Barzakh is a realm kept by the Lord of the Universe between this world of ours and the forthcoming Hereafter in such a way that both might maintain their individual limits. Barzakh is a state between these worldly and otherworldly affairs.


Halfway between Reward and Punishment

After entering the world of Barzakh one does not experience physical pains like headache, toothache and such other troubles. Such suffering forms a part of the essentials of the material world. But there, in Barzakh, it is the realm of abstracts or of incorporeal beings. Of course, it can also not be called the Hereafter, which may mean that there will be only darkness for the sinners and only light for the obedient ones.


Some people asked the Imam (a.s.) about the duration of Barzakh. He replied, “It is from the moment of death up to the time when all will rise from their graves regaining life.
The Holy Qur’an says:

...and before them is a barrier until the day they are raised. (23:100)

Sch8200:
I believe the highlighted is a deliberate attempt at mockery especially when a lot has been said regarding this issue namely the Father being distinct from the Son and yet being One. No problem.
For saying this?:


"Father humbled Himself to be servant and son. And ultimately allowed himself to be nailed?. Fantastic!"

Emp:
Honestly it is no joke at all. Sometimes we just have to be blunt. This is a matter of salvation. If i was mocking you i would posted pictures like i did with ifeann, malvis and co. I know you sound rational. Why would i mock you. Believe it or not, it is blasphemy to say God came down, relegated Himself and became flesh......Nauzubillah.

Scholar8200:
Actually what I wanted to know was why, since Gabriel appeared to both as a man, why was he called with the generic name -angel- while for the other he was called with a special name and the definite article -The- was used meaning there was only one of his kind?

[Quran 2:87]

"And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed".

Moreover, can you give instances when Gabriel supported Jesus' Ministry?

Basic Grammar tells us the article - the - shows there is only one of that kind eg Jesus is the Messiah meaning we cannot have more than one! How do we relate this to Gabriel who is not the only angel?



Alright to the highlighted text.


Meaning the personality He was sending was neither Gabriel nor a man! Else, this is the implication:

1. Only God has the capacity to say,"I will send so and so" not from the Earth but from Heaven" Therefore if Jesus was referring to Mohammed (which of course He wasnt) then He is the Son of God and Essentially One with Him! NO prophet at any age EVER used that sentence of promising to send someone from Heaven! Highest they did eg Moses was to appoint a successor on earth!

2. If Jesus was referring to Mohammed, then Jesus is far more than a prophet! Whosoever is sent is answerable to Him that sent him! Note that Jesus said He will send such an One in His Name, just as He came in the Father's Name! Think on these!

AlMuflihah:
Who can be one's closest companions if not one's wife/wives, relatives And friends... go an do research ,i know u wunt do as U are too dull to understand...

The Angel of Revelation, Jibreel (Gabriel), who is recognized by all the People of the Book [Jews and Christians], came to him, and when he received revelation, there were unusual effects on him that indicated the intensity of the effort involved in receiving the Message of Allaah from Jibreel, upon whom be peace.
His Companions witnessed this when he received Revelation, and they believed that the revelation was something that came from an outside source and was beyond his control; it came to him from (Allaah), the Wise and Praiseworthy.

Allaah supported the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) with physical miracles, with which he challenged his people. Among the most important of these were the splitting of the moon and the Night Journey to Bayt al-Maqdis (Jerusalem). They were unable to match these miracles, and so they were a decisive, divine testimony to the truth of his Prophethood (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

[b]Allaah supported him with miracles and evidence for people of reason and understanding, the greatest of which was the Qur’aan. This was the greatest sign, which contains in its pages miracles of both style and content, which all of mankind cannot match or imitate, even if they gather together for that purpose. This is clear from the statements of the most eloquent of the Arabs, who were completely unable to match it. The Qur’aan was – and centuries later still is, praise be to Allaah – an eternal miracle as is evident in its brilliant style, its information about the Unseen, its fulfilment of the promises of Allaah, the superiority of its laws, and the fact that its rulings are appropriate for every time and place – in addition to the fact that it has such a moving impact on people’s hearts.

The Qur’aan refers to the signs and proofs surrounding the person of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), which testify to his truthfulness. For example, he was free of sin and trivial spitefulness; he grew up illiterate in the Arabian Peninsula, and did not receive any religious knowledge from beyond its borders, nor did he spend time acquiring any religious knowledge. When he reached the age of forty, he brought divine knowledge that none of the earlier or later generations could produce. He also received special protection and care from Allaah, which kept him safe at times of crisis; if it were not for this protection he would most certainly have been doomed to destruction. None of this could have happened except to one who was truly sent from Allaah.

His coming was foretold in the Tawraat (Torah) and Injeel (Gospel), and some of the People of the Book saw that these prophecies applied in totality to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), which led them to embrace Islam. There are still passages in the Bible, in both the Old and New Testaments, in the versions that are accepted by the People of the Book, that clearly refer to the prophethood of muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam[/b]

AlMuflihah:
Abi oo...na so we see am...d gospel was revealed to jesus to preach and he told his disciples to preach it also... not that contrasting and contradictory book (bible) that they prech today gospel of paul...shior

Scholar8200:
ALright , give us the details of the Injeel since you have been able to establish that the ones in the 4 gospels are stories.

Empiree:
To be honest, this verse of Quran you quoted is self explanatory. Let's keep this simple. Malaika Jibreel (Angel Gabriel) is beloved by Allah. Their relationship is beyond human comprehension. We see throughout Quran that Angel Gabriel(as) had been commissioned since beginning of time. So he was addressed appropriately where and when Allah deemed fit. Allah addresses or calls his by different titles. However, I do have to commend you for your sincere thought. Your questions are legitimate.

When readers of the Qur’an hear the words “holy spirit,” they equate this expression with the Arabic, ruh-ul qudus. There are several Qur’anic passages that use this expression, but they do not clearly identify what or who this ruh-ul qudus is. One of those passages is the following as rendered in Yusuf Ali’s world-renowned translation:

Say: the Holy Spirit (ruh-ul qudus) has brought the revelation from thy Lord in truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide, and glad tidings to Muslims. —Surat-un Nahl (16):102


Most Muslims believe this ruh-ul qudus to be Gabriel. Because he is an angel, they know that he is a spirit; and because he transmits the Word of Allah, he is in a special sense a very holy spirit. There are other passages, however, where the expression ruh-ul qudus is not as easily interpreted. For example, there are three Qur’anic passages that use the expression “holy spirit” in reference to the ministry of Isa Al-Masih.


"We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit (ruh-ul qudus)." —Surat-ul Baqara (2): 87



To Jesus the son of Mary, We gave clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit (ruh-ul qudus). —Surat-ul Baqara (2): 253



Then Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount my favor to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the Holy Spirit (ruh-ul qudus).…” —Surat-ul Ma’ida (5): 110




Today, the common opinion is that the ruh-ul qudus of these verses refer again to the angel Gabriel. But according to the opinions of the early classical interpreters, such as Ibn Zayd, Ibn Abbas and Ibn Anas, and later confirmed by al-Baidawi (d.685/1282), in these passages ruh-ul qudus was understood in a variety of ways. Other interpretations included:




1. the spirit that Allah breathed into Isa; 2. the Injil that Allah sent down to Isa; and 3. the one name of Allah that superceded all others, which Isa invoked to perform miracles, such as raising the dead. In each of these instances, ruh-ul qudus was interpreted to be something more profound than an angel; it was something that was of Allah and that came down from Allah. Furthermore, in each of the above three passages, this holy spirit came to give strength to Allah’s servant. This idea is conveyed iN yet another verse of the Qur’an that speaks of believers fully devoted to Allah:


"He [Allah] has written faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself (ruh min hu)." —Surat-ul Mujadila (58): 22



Yusuf Ali, in his commentary for this verse, says the following: Here we learn that all good and righteous men are strengthened by Allah with the holy spirit. If anything, the phrase used here is stronger, “a spirit from Himself.” When anyone offers his heart in faith and purity to Allah, Allah accepts it, engraves that Faith on the seeker’s heart, and further fortifies him with the divine spirit, which we can no more define adequately than we can define in human language the nature and attributes of Allah.

Notice Yusuf Ali’s description of this spirit as “the divine spirit.”Again we see a reference to something that is of Allah, comes from Allah and comes to strengthen. We have already seen references of Isa Al-Masih being strengthened, but this is the only verse in the entire Qur’an that speaks about the common believer being strengthened by the Spirit of Allah.

I definitely concur with Yusuf Ali's theory. This subject leads us to subject of Islamic epistemology, which is grounded in sufism (the spiritual heart of Islam). The word Ruh (spirit) is very complex and can never be fully understood by human. Quran itself confirms that. In a story recorded by Al-Bukhari in his Tafsir of this Ayah that `Abdullah bin Mas`ud said, "While I was walking with the Prophet on a farm, and he was resting on a palm-leaf stalk, some Jews passed by. Some of them said to the others, `Ask him about the Ruh.' Some of them said, `What urges you to ask him about that' Others said, `Do not ask him, lest he gives you a reply which you do not like.' But they said, `Ask him.' So they asked him about the Ruh. The Prophet kept quiet and did not give them an answer, and I knew that he was receiving revelation, so I stayed where I was. When the revelation was complete, the Prophet said:


[size=20pt]وَيَسْـَلُونَكَ عَنِ الرُّوحِ قُلِ الرُّوحُ مِنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّى[/size]

(And they ask you concerning the Ruh (the spirit). Say: "The Ruh (the spirit) is one of the things, the knowledge of which is only with my Lord...'') Surah 17:85



The people of dhirk i:e muslims who invokes Allah a lot (remembrance of God), they know some few things about RUH. Ruh is definitely not only Gabriel, the word is used variably in the Quran. Ruh, according to the people of dhikr, are inside of every human being apart from the two Angels on our shoulders. Only through the remembrance of Allah we can activate it. There is a lot more to this. I'd better leave this as it is. What is inappropriate is to say Jesus is God just because Allah breaths His ruh in him. Nowhere in the Bible Jesus claim to be God. Point is even if John 14 and 15 claim Holy Spirit to be sent later, this spirit already existed long before Jesus(p). And the "spirit" mentioned would be visible and his message would abide with mankind forever.


THE ANGEL JIBREEL IN THE QURÁN AND SUNNAH

https://foreverislamic./2012/09/21/the-angel-jibreel-in-the-quran-and-sunnah/

There is no doubt that this is a critical spiritual truth that must be explored. To learn more about this experience, we need to consult the scriptures of the Injil, which has much to say about this important matter. First, notice the wording in the following Injil selection, which is similar to what we found in Surat-ul Mujadila (58):22:


"I pray that out of his glorious riches He (Allah) may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being…."

—Injil, Ephesians 3:16

Refer to surah 17:85



If that is the case, why is nature of Jesus so complicated to many Christians?. If you conclude that because of underlined he must be God, then, i can easily mention some christians right here on NL to argue with you otherwise. I will sit behind and eat popcorn while i watch.

Quran is very clear:

"O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs." Sura 004:171

Why is the verse ^ difficult for you to swallow?. Where did Jesus say he is God because he has the power to send holy spirit?. That's just your assumption

AlMuflihah:
Just try to use ur brain if u have 1.....even if all d ones written down were eaten by goats... did any goat eat d ones memorised by the Muslims?in Islam, we lay more emphasis on d memory as storage dan what is written down abi do goats in ur village eat what's in ppu's heads? If dats d case, it explains ur emptu headedness. U just dey lament eaten by goats blah blah blah like a goat...where dd u get dat from sef?

Scholar8200:
Scholar8200:

Compare this with:

ANd since the Spirit here is not Gabriel, I believe this Spirit has a relationship with God far deeper than that of Gabriel who is a malaika.A Spirit from Himself selah!


And that make him (Jesus) God?.

Expatiate on this:
If the Spirit here in question proceeds from Allah, how come Jesus could say, " I will send Him unto you"? Which should be the exclusive preserve of Allah?
At this point I believe we can all agree that the Spirit promised by Christ was not a man.



How can that be since he was also created? Does that apply to the rest angels too?


Did Angel not preceded human being? That's what i meant.

Meaning he ranks with the other angels since they all precede man. Okay.


But the definite article shows there has to be only One of that Kind. Could Gabriel's errands make him holier than the other malaikas?


And which other malaikat is more commissioned according to your Bible?. Which other malaika transmitted Divine message to prophets and messengers besides Gabriel?

Many Angels were sent in the Bible with Divine Messages to prophets and people in general!!! Their names were not mentioned! Only two were mentioned-Gabriel and Michael, of the latter, a high title was attached which was not used for Gabriel in all Scripture!


So which do you accept?


Very simple, Whether it's merely holy spirit or Gabriel, does that make Jesus God?. Quran says Jesus was conceived by word og Allah(God) "Be! and He was". How does that make Jesus(p) God?

But then such an One could declare that He will send the Holy Spirit and that the Spirit will come in His Name! Interestingly, it was interchanged-sometimes He said "the Father will send" , other times He said "I will send" underscoring the Truth-I and My Father are ONE!
That is sure higher than what a man can do!




Why is that? What position is the color highlighted text in relation to Allah?


See, here it's about Allah's Names and Attributes. Anything can emerge from His Almighty Names. I know that very well. Ruh Allah i:e Spirit Of Allah is a subject that has been dealt with many times. It is merely Word coming from Allah. Jesus is a word from Allah not "Word of Allah"

As per the text in blue, do you mean the Spirit is the Word? Do shed more light!


SPIRIT OF Allah IS BREATHED IN EVERY HUMAN BEING

A spirit from Allah does not indicate that Jesus (pbuh) is God. The Qur’an mentions in several places that Allah breathed into the human beings “His Spirit” in Surah Al-Hijr, chapter 15 verse 29 in Surah Sajdah, chapter 32 verse 9

Surah Al Hijr Chapter 15 verse 29

“When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.” [Al-Qur’an 15:29]



Surah Sajdah Chapter 32 verse 9

“But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!” [Al-Qur’an 32:9]

The verse above are talking abot Adam(p) and human beings generally. Why is Adam not God since God also breath is spirit in him as He did Jesus(p)?.

No one claims the Divinity of Christ based on the Anointing of the Spirit! I never said so! I know very well that there were many that were anointed and strengthened by the Spirit in the OT!


JOHN THE BAPTIST (PBUH) IS ALSO CALLED “A WORD” OF Allah

Yahya (pbuh) i.e. John the Baptist (pbuh) is also referred to in the Qur’an as Kalimatullah i.e. a word of Allah in Surah Ali ‘Imran, Chapter 3, verses 38-39

“There did Zakariya Pray to his Lord, saying: “O my Lord! Grant unto me from Thee a progeny that is pure: for Thou art He that heareth prayer!

While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels called unto him: “Allah doth give thee glad tidings of Yahya, witnessing the truth of a Word from Allah, and (be besides) noble, chaste, and a Prophet – of the (goodly) company of the righteous.” [Al-Qur’an 3:39]

Why is John not God just because he was also word from Allah?.
Hear John speak:
"...He that comes after me is preferred before me; for He was before me!
John 1:15b
Making it clear that Jesus is, and was before him not on the basis of age since John was born before Jesus but on a greater and infinitely higher basis!

And hear what John's mum had to say:

"And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Luke 1:43
She said this at a time when she was pregnant with John.

The Word that was God became has been from the beginning and was made flesh!


But He clearly declared that He was One with the Father! Jesus did not say the message would abide forever He clearly said He - the Holy Spirit- will abide with the believers forever. Besides, the Holy Spirit was to be sent in Christ's Name and indwell believers-two things He never did up till that time! In the past the Spirit was sent only to Kings and Prophets and that not permanently. But now He would be coming to indwell all believers! See the difference?


So going by your word, for argument sake, let's assume the "Holy Spirit" sent in Jesus names dwells inside believers (even today) why then Christians doctrines are different?. Right now we have Christians who dont believe Jesus is God. Some Christians dont believe in trinity etc. Question is if the holy spirit sent in the name of Jesus is pure and dwell inside every christian, why do you not all believe the same way?. For instance, no Muslim believe Jesus or Muhammad is God. This is universal among concept Muslims. To believe otherwise is tantamount to disbelieve and blasphemy.


Pay close attention to my point again, if John 14 15 is referring to "holy spirit" which is supposedly dwell in every christian, why do churches and Christians' doctrines differ greatly in terms of salvation?. Some Christians believe Jesus is God; and to reject that concept is detrimental and jeopardizes their salvation. Some Christians believe Jesus is not God simply because he did not say so. They did not see that statement in their Bible. Now, is the holy spirit deceiving you people by giving you different doctrines?

The Word of God, not christian groups, is the final authority on matters like this. The Spirit works with the Word hence we try the spirits by the Word as commanded! Any body can claim to have the Spirit but the test is the Word! Jesus said the Spirit will reveal Truth and Himself to the disciples, that He will bring the Word to our remembrance etc Hence beyond the claims of having the Spirit, we examine the genuineness by the Word! Here many you have referred to fail!

If you will read the NT, you will see many prophecies that people will rise up to draw away disciples for themselves, teach heresies, deny the Lord and His Word etc Even at the beginning of the Church some false brethren tried to introduce things that had no place etc this is why every true christian stands with the Word, not denominational dogma especially when it contradicts the Word! I have seen so-called christians who will argue for their church practices and teachings even if you show them the Word is contrary to them, what then?



Consider that Genesis 18 carefully and ask who was the third Man called LORD and , like you just mentioned, Who is the Spirit that proceeds from God? Surely you agreed He is not an angel.
(for the records only, not related to thread)
If we say the God is One and that He is Three In One and that it is a mystery which we believe, Muslims mock, however there are instances in your reply where those you quoted implied that there were mysteries even they could not explain!


And how is this verse of Quran difficult for you to understand?. What you believe up there contradicts Oneness of God. It means you believe in Three gods. You getting really confused

A mystery does not mean the believers therein are confused!


"O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs." Sura 004:171
Were these not the same people Muslims were asked to get clarification from being accused of exceeding limits? How do we reconcile this? And if the Quran was completed between 609-632, it means the Trinity was not a 17th century addition after all but had been there all along!

Scholar8200:
GOD as we know Him!

The concept of One being with the Father from the beginning was obviously taken by Heriaclitus around 6BC (not even Philo) and defaced to reflect Gnostics' belief of there being many intermediaries between God and the material world and Gnostics further claim that Logos was the highest of all the intermediaries! This is an obvious theft of Inspiration/Intellectual material from the Hebrews by the Greeks, and prostituting same to reflect one's belief (A skill much used by Gnostics and attempted by the learner who forged the 'gospel of Barnabas' trying to steal the Gospel and weave Islam into it but he failed woefully!)

Now let's see the belief in the Father and Son as shown in the OTRemember that all these were written milleniums before Heriaclitus!

1. Psalm 110:1
The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Bare in mind that David who wrote this was an Israelite who believed that,"the Lord our God is One Lord!
This is a mystery!

2. The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way,
before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting,
from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth;
when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled,
before the hills was I brought forth:
30 then I was by him, as one brought up with him:
and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Proverbs 8:22-30 (Indeed the Only Begotten In Whom He is Well Pleased!

Once again remember that these were people whose rallying cry was:
Hear O Israel, the Lord your God is One Lord!

Now we see an obvious contradiction by Philo and his ilks:

Philo&co : Logos is a thought or reason hence when God expresses the word, He says Be and it is so.

Now the same Philo: ]u]Logos is the highest of the demiurges,[/u] an intermediary between God and the material world!

Here Philo tries real hard to reconcile his jewish background and his hellenistic philosophies the result? CONFUSION!

Where exactly do they stand!? This happens and proves that the Fact of the Divine Nature was stolen and there was a battle in keeping the concept while at the same time prostituting it to suit their purposes!

Now then Why did John retain the Word Logos? Simple. It was known to the Hebrews that Wisdom was the One that Expressed/Revealed the Father:

Besides, the Gnostic Greeks regards matter (eg the flesh) to be intrinsically evil hence the Word being made flesh is in total contradistinction with the Philo/Grecian/Gnostic views!

This is why the same John, having these Grecio/Gnostic corrupters in mind said:

and every spirit that confesseth not that [size=13pt]Jesus Christ is come in the flesh[/size] is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1John 4:3

Interesting, now read and judge:

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 1:18
So , was this also mistranslated? The Son IS the Word as Hebrews 1:2,3 confirms. Note that John did not write Hebrews and the thought here agrees with the Son revealing/expressing the Father!

Now Muslims claim David as one of Islam's prophets but I hope you realise he wrote both Psalms up there!

One of the appearances of the Pre-Incarnated Christ is His visit to Abraham in company of 2 angels and Jesus would go on to cement this when He said He was before Abraham.John 8:58 What then?

I saw your attachments! Sincerely speaking, I would not expect such simpletonic replies from a Christian worth the Name!

1. from 1538-1970 Bible has much been changed! Funny!!! The version preserved through the Vaudois remains untouched in the KJV form! That one dates back to 120AD and these people preserved every jot at the cost of their lives and the KJV agrees thereto. What then?

2. The one on Matthew 1:18 and Luke 1:26,27 is very nauseating! What? The writer endeavors to use this to establish that Holy Ghost=Gabriel. But why did he omit this:

Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, T[b]he Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow [/b]thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God
Luke 1:34,35

angel not the same as Holy Ghost!

Empiree:
Well, Psalms suffered pretty much same fate as Bible?Gospel in form of distortion as well. You dont see muslims teach these Book. Although, I read and taught zabura(Psalms) in madrassa growing up. But not as you have it today. Even then, it was some pages not the entire thing. The portions that are in harmony with Quran.



This was interpreted by some Islamic scholars as (Jesus- p) having foreknowledge of Abraham just like prophet Muhammad(p). And that supposed to mean he is God? Na uncle.

Further investigations by Islamic scholars reveals that John 8:58's deliberate mistranslation of Jesus saying "I AM" with new evidence from the Greek language!

Here is the text -

1- The text (findings) of John 8:58.

*****Jesus was the foretold Messiah and the greatest and final Jewish Prophet.

*****Jesus also was the heir who will inherit the earth.

Throughout the Bible, Jesus Christ is recorded to have made many claims regarding how GOD Almighty is Higher and Greater than him. These statements should be clear enough to demonstrate and prove that Jesus Christ, the Messiah (anointed, chosen to be the lord/leader/master of the Jews, their final Prophet), is no more than a creation of GOD Almighty. However, Christians often bring few verses that supposedly prove otherwise; that Jesus is GOD Almighty Himself. Such verses are: John 1, John 8:58, Colossians 1:15-16 and perhaps few others.


Here is how John 8 reads; thanks to a Muslim scholar who research this. You need to do yourself a favor. Read the entire John 8 verse 1:58. In the passage, Jesus was abruptly interrupted by the Jews who got fed up from him. They thought that he was insulting their intelligence and their cherished faith by talking blasphemous garbage (such as Abraham rejoiced for him (John 8:56) and other things). It is clear that Jesus was most likely interrupted and wasn't heard finishing up his sentence. Also, the context of Jesus' words were about seeing Abraham before he was even born. This is nothing new in the Bible. In the Old Testament, we read:


"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 1:5)"


[size=20pt]"[/size][/b]Since Jesus was created from the Word of GOD Almighty, and since also our human-spirits are also created from the Holy Spirit, and since Jesus was a Word from the Word of Allah Almighty, then it is quite possible for him to have known, or seen the records of the future human-creations that were going to be created on earth, such as Abraham and others. After all, Allah Almighty uses Angels, Spirits and other created Beings of His to create creations under His Command. Things in the spiritual realm are different. Existence in the spiritual world, including our spirits, is Eternal. Our earthly bodies are not Eternal. [b]So, Jesus having a prior knowledge about Abraham's spirit is nothing unusual in the spiritual world.


Abraham here was used by Jesus because the Jews used him as their highest and greatest Prophet against Jesus. So it wasn't Jesus who brought up Abraham. It was the Jews. Otherwise, Jesus would not have mentioned Abraham or any earthly creation. Read John 8:33.

Also, Jesus is the foretold Messiah, the anointed/selected final and greatest Prophet for the Jews, who will come and establish peace on earth and rule the earth in the end. The Old Testament makes it clear that the Messiah will inherit and rule the earth. See the sub-section below for more details.

However, we must always never forget that the text of the Bible is neither genuine nor original. The Bible's books and gospels, according to its own translators and theologians were[b][size=20pt]"[/size][/b]

Written by mysterious men.
Written by an unknown number of men.
Written in unknown places.
Written in unknown dates.




The dude gave his best shot,isnt?



You may need to ask the author of the book. I dont know about the date he thought. What i do know is Bible has much been changed between ascension of Jesus(p) and advent of Muhammad(p). That we know for sure. Further changes and distortion came pretty much later.




See, i dont think you get it. I can care less whether Ruh-Qudus mentioned by Allah with respect to creation of Jesus refers to Gabriel or another set of Holy Spirit. It doesnt matter. What matters is whether it is Holy Ghost or Angel Gabriel, none of them is God or part of God. They are creations of God. Since Muslims also disagree whether it's Holy Ghost or Gabriel, it is a matter of debate.

What we do know for sure and we have no doubt about is that Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit or Gabriel is not God with respect to Jesus. It is a matter of Command. That is, whenever God Almighty desires something to get done He only says to it "Be! and it is" which brought about creation of Jesus and ordinary human for that matter. This is called Creative Power.

Looks like at some point, you differentiate Jesus from God, Jesus from Holy Spirit. At another, you merged them which is nothing new. It seems to me that you confused(not only you actually but ALL Christians) ila masha'Allah





Oh well, this is Mr Luke's version. I think you are trying to emphasis "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee..." . Luke mere wrote what he heard. He was not a disciple, not even eye witness. Here is Quran version



"She (Mary) said, "How can I have a boy while no man has touched me and I have not been unchaste?"
He (Gabriel) said, "Thus [it will be]; your Lord says, 'It is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign to the people and a mercy from Us(Allah). And it is a matter [already] decreed.'
So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a remote place." Surah 19:20-22




So?

Finally, i implore you to desist from blasphemy God unconsciously. The consequences are grave. Quran speaks:


“They have certainly disbelieved who say, ‘God is the Messiah, the son of Mary’ while the Messiah has said, ‘O Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord...’” (Quran 5:72)





“They have certainly disbelieved who say, ‘God is the third of three.’ (Rather) there is none worthy of worship except One (God). And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. So will they not repent to God and seek His forgiveness? And God is Forgiving and Merciful. The Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger before whom many Messengers have passed away; and his mother adhered wholly to truthfulness, and they both ate food (as other mortals do). See how We make Our signs clear to them; and see where they are turning away!” (Quran 5:73-75)




“And they say: ‘The Most Merciful (God) has taken (for Himself) a son.’ Assuredly you utter a hideous thing, whereby almost the heavens are torn, and the earth is split asunder and the mountains fall in ruins; That they ascribe unto the Most Merciful a son, when it is not suitable for (the Majesty of) the Most Merciful that He should take a son. There is none in the heavens and the earth but comes unto the Most Merciful as a slave.” (Quran 19:88-93)




And also:

“O People of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, and attribute to God nothing except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of God, and His command that He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and in His Messengers, and do not say: ‘God is a Trinity.’ Give up this assertion; it would be better for you. For God is indeed (the only) One God. Far be it from His glory that He should have a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth. And God is sufficient for a guardian.” (Quran 4:171)

Scholar8200:
Refer to the explanations above. The Nature of God is also a mystery, but this much has been revealed.

Meaning there is no part of the Quran that actually/expressedly verifies that hadith?

Now is it allowed that a hadith validates another hadith? Especially when the former might not (subject to your answer to penultimate question)have been expressedly validated in the Quran?

Oh Christians too can: GOD!

Empire.e:
I will ask you same question asked in the book i posted. Who is God?. Who is Holy Spirit or Ghost?, Who is Jesus?. You do not need to sweat to answer this. Very simple question. Muslims can answer this question in a simple word.

To deny the Divinity of the Son is to deny everything about the Work of Redemption! How then is such an one a Christian? It is a mystery revealed to an extent. But we cannot force our intellect to complete the parts not revealed in understanding. That will be heretical.

When the Father said (referring to the Son):
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8
Isaiah also called the Son the Mighty God! Isaiah was also an Israelite who cried, Hear O Israel, the Lord thy God is One Lord!

Do I have perfect understanding thereof? No. Do I believe it? Yes, God said it!

The Father is, was and ever shall be!

You Said:

GOD of course! The Omnipotent,Omniscient and Omnipresent!
Yes Jesus even said, " The FAther that dwelleth in Me, He does the Works" and furthermore Jesus said," if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God"
John 14:10, Matthew 12:28. This underscores His Omnipresence and that this Divine attribute was unaffected when the Word became flesh!

And was Mohammed's witness in agreement with that of Jesus' disciples! If the Criteria for the mortal men here was that they had ben with Him from the commencement of His earthly ministry, does Muhammed, another mortal, qualify on this ground?

If the only way Jesus would be glorified was to be by writing, then the Spanish author of the failed 'gospel of barnabas' could also make similar claims on ground of his book!

Jesus plainly said,"...the Spirit of Truth which proceeds from the Father"

Note that this was a promise for the future!

If this be true then Jesus was actually crucified and He died!!! Then, His resurrection is likewise true!!! Else, He is not there meaning the claim that all mankind goes there is Wrong! Otherwise, He is not ordinary Man hence though HE came as a Man, He still did not go there because He was also beyond Man! By implication, the record and account in the Bible is right ab initio!
Any objections?

But the distinctness of the Personalities has been established?!

Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”[u]



40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet.


41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, [u]“Do you have anything here to eat?”