AnonyNymous:


If it 'needs be' that offences come, then men cannot be blamed for their offences. Because its predestined.

AnonyNymous:

You said offence must happen. If I choose good why must offence still happen?! That's what I'm asking! What if everyone in the world uses their free will to choose good?! Then why must offence still happen?!

AnonyNymous:
From the responses so far, there has been no solid response. Seun, Lalasticlala, Obinoscopy, PLEASE push this to the FP, I'd like to hear different opinions on this.

NegusNegaste:
Nice food for thought bro. Christians, and indeed all religious people in their blind following of their various 'Gods' forget to observe that they shoot themselves in the leg.

malvisguy212:
What God did was that, He predestined the course of human history for the messiah, remember, He is the sovereign God. Take for example, Isaiah
and Jeremiah claim that God used foreign rulers to alter history and free the Jews from
Babylonian captivity:
Isaiah 46:10-11
Declaring the end from the beginning And
from ancient times things which have not
been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be
established, And I will accomplish all My good
pleasure'; Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man of My purpose from a far country.
Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass.
I have planned it, surely I will do it.
Jeremiah 51:11
Sharpen the arrows, fill the quivers! The LORD
has aroused the spirit of the kings of the
Medes, Because His purpose is against
Babylon to destroy it; For it is the vengeance
of the LORD, vengeance for His temple.
The point is that, their are some people, because of the plan of salvation, God predistine history for them, to serve the purpose of God, this people possess free will, they will do evil in any circumstance, so God place them in history at the right time to serve his purpose.
Deuteronomy 30:19
"I call heaven and earth to witness against
you today, that I have set before you life
and death, the blessing and the curse. So
CHOOSE life in order that you may live, you
and your descendants.
They have the opportunity to choose life, because of freewill, in any circumstance, they will choose death, so God use this people for His plan of salvation, either way, satan loose.

NegusNegaste:
Nice food for thought bro. Christians, and indeed all religious people in their blind following of their various 'Gods' forget to observe that they shoot themselves in the leg.

AnonyNymous:
From the responses so far, there has been no solid response. Seun, Lalasticlala, Obinoscopy, PLEASE push this to the FP, I'd like to hear different opinions on this.

MrPresident1:


Lol. What you present is an hypothetical conundrum, it is unrealistic. Human beings are naturally selfish, and will make a selfish choice when favourable ocassion is presented.

Offence must come! Or are we living in paradise yet? Is man completely good?

It is written that offence must come, it is left for you to either take the higher course or make the baser choice.

AnonyNymous:

unrealistic or not, it is a possibility, and the probability exists, even if its 1 in a million. The statement 'offence must come' eliminates that probability, which simultaneously eliminates free will.
You actually just proved my point. Our digestive system naturally digests any food into us. It has no free will. It cannot choose a day where it decides not to, it only stops when death/disease occurs.
Humans are naturally selfish, which means its embedded in us to be like this and therefore not our fault.

malvisguy212:
What God did was that, He predestined the course of human history for the messiah, remember, He is the sovereign God. Take for example, Isaiah
and Jeremiah claim that God used foreign rulers to alter history and free the Jews from
Babylonian captivity:
Isaiah 46:10-11
Declaring the end from the beginning And
from ancient times things which have not
been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be
established, And I will accomplish all My good
pleasure'; Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man of My purpose from a far country.
Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass.
I have planned it, surely I will do it.
Jeremiah 51:11
Sharpen the arrows, fill the quivers! The LORD
has aroused the spirit of the kings of the
Medes, Because His purpose is against
Babylon to destroy it; For it is the vengeance
of the LORD, vengeance for His temple.
The point is that, their are some people, because of the plan of salvation, God predistine history for them, to serve the purpose of God, this people possess free will, they will do evil in any circumstance, so God place them in history at the right time to serve his purpose.
Deuteronomy 30:19
"I call heaven and earth to witness against
you today, that I have set before you life
and death, the blessing and the curse. So
CHOOSE life in order that you may live, you
and your descendants.
They have the opportunity to choose life, because of freewill, in any circumstance, they will choose death, so God use this people for His plan of salvation, either way, satan loose.

AnonyNymous:

unrealistic or not, it is a possibility, and the probability exists, even if its 1 in a million. The statement 'offence must come' eliminates that probability, which simultaneously eliminates free will.
You actually just proved my point. Our digestive system naturally digests any food into us. It has no free will. It cannot choose a day where it decides not to, it only stops when death/disease occurs.
Humans are naturally selfish, which means its embedded in us to be like this and therefore not our fault.

Presbulg:


You'd be wasting your time if you're expecting any reasonable answers from here. Why ? Because they don't have it. Why's that ? Because it doesn't make sense. It still doesn't make sense cuz it never happened.

God said ' Thou shall not kill'
Why would he then send his son(that's if it's true) to get killed on earth

Christians use your heads !!!

malvisguy212:
the op has been answer, but is because your mind is already made up to rebel against God word.

God predistine human history to fulfill His purpose, He place wicked people at a particular place, in human history just to fulfill his purpose, this people have the opportunity to choose life, but because of free choice, they will choose evil, God already knows all this, so He use them to carry out His plan of salvation. The bible made it clear, jesus CHOOSE judas and not the other way round, apostle paul clear this issue, the answer is in the scripture.

Presbulg:


Mr. All these na story for puppets not for reasonable people.

The all loving God has to put his son to that cruel and humiliating suffering because he want to save the people he created ? Pls what is even the moral lesson behind that ?

I believe in Jesus(pbuh) but I don't believe he was ever subjected to that kind of pain and suffering for what ??

Abeg park well.

AnonyNymous:
If you've seen me on NL recently, you'll know that I'm not religious. My 'religion' is kindness. Humanism. I believe that we can learn to be kind to our fellow human beings and love one another without the concept of any god.

ANYWAY enough of me. As for the question, I heard two religious friends of mine arguing (different faiths) and the non christian posed this question: "In your bible, its clearly stated that god sent his son to die for our sins, that that was his mission on earth, (John 3:16) and Christianity as a whole recognizes that the blood of Jesus 'washes away' sin. If that is so, why are the people who facilitated the prophecy, such as Judas, the Roman Government, the Pharisees, etc not celebrated as heroes of Christianity? After all, if Jesus' mission was to come to earth and die, then surely the people who helped make that mission a success should be celebrated!"


After this statement, my Christian friend could not speak. I'd like to know what you Christians have to say about this.

cc: Seun Lalasticlala

malvisguy212:
oh, a muslim, so you believe after 600 years, after the event had happen, God sent muhammed to say they crucified him not ? Why will Allah waited that long ? Those who have died before muhammed came, who will be blame for their unbelief ? Allah or satan ? The quran admit, crucifixion happen, but it say, Allah change the face of jesus, to who ?

The bible made it clear, by one man, sin enter the world and through one man the forgiveness of sin was accomplish. Before the coming of muhammed, under the mosaic law, what were the Jews doing on the “Day of Atonement” (blood atonement) since 1513 B.C.E.?

If the jews and muslims are worshiping one God, why will he command the jews to atone for their sin with blood atonement and later say in the quran that He hate it ?

Presbulg:


I have one question for you.
You know the entire case of christianity is based on the so called crucifixion of Jesus, and you guys make it so important, why was it never ever mentioned at least once in the old Testament ? I'd think a major event like that should have least been prophesied in the old Testament

Presbulg:


I have one question for you.
You know the entire case of christianity is based on the so called crucifixion of Jesus, and you guys make it so important, why was it never ever mentioned at least once in the old Testament ? I'd think a major event like that should have least been prophesied in the old Testament

Presbulg:


I have one question for you.
You know the entire case of christianity is based on the so called crucifixion of Jesus, and you guys make it so important, why was it never ever mentioned at least once in the old Testament ? I'd think a major event like that should have least been prophesied in the old Testament

AnonyNymous:

I went to a Christian secondary school, I believe it actually was prophesied in the old testament.
My problem with Christianity is how it continually contradicts itself, not to talk of some of the morals the bible promotes. Islam too, has their own issues, but that's for another day. The person you are arguing with, that Malvis guy, fails to think in terms of logic and common sense but is saying 'just believe'. That's why I refuse to reply to him, because there is no logic in his words. But before you actually bring forth statements, I advise you to do your research first to avoid seeming unintelligent

malvisguy212:
me and you or any atheist are one different seth of people, faith is not just a substance, is a spiritual truth, it is either you accept or reject. What happen to my post ? Why dint you quote it ? Because you have know answer. It is a good thing to seat at the fence and watch, their you will view how life pass you by till judgment.

Dux01:
i am very sorry because you have believed a lie.so since the history of humanity you have not seen that we can never love one another because we can never fully understand one another we can never love one another except if we can read each others mind to understand each persons likes and dislikes many times you offend people without knowing because you dont know their mind is against what you said or did.for us to love one another without God,everyone must love the same thing which is impossible.someone who loves what you hate may not be able to understand why you hate it and may hate you immediately.only when everyone loves the same thing which is what GOD loves because God himself is inside everyone of them then we can love one another perfectly.believe the truth.it will make you free.

AnonyNymous:

unrealistic or not, it is a possibility, and the probability exists, even if its 1 in a million. The statement 'offence must come' eliminates that probability, which simultaneously eliminates free will.
You actually just proved my point. Our digestive system naturally digests any food into us. It has no free will. It cannot choose a day where it decides not to, it only stops when death/disease occurs.
Humans are naturally selfish, which means its embedded in us to be like this and therefore not our fault.

AnonyNymous:

Your posts have had no logical statements in them, all you are doing is telling me to 'come to God'. lol. There's nothing to refute, because you didn't make any statement from a logical standpoint. I'm tired of repeating the same things over and over. Read the from the beginning of the thread up to this point and then come back if you have anything different to say. If not, then don't mention me.

AnonyNymous:
From the arguments presented, I can conclude that Christianity is nothing but a religion based upon contradicting statements that make no sense, but people still choose to believe. Santa Claus for grown ups. Its ok. The problem I have is when you start interfering with my life e.g blasting these illogical statements from megaphones at 4 in the morning claiming 'its for god'

MrPresident1:


Look, you cannot compare the digestive processes in the stomach which are wholly and totally by reflex and involuntary actions to the conscious, rational and deliberate exercise of freewill. There is good and there is offence, choice is yours to make. Is your hypothetical conundrum realistic? are all men good? And see what you are saying: unrealistic or not, it is a possibility, and the probability exists, even if its 1 in a million. is this an exercise in academic dialetics? Arguing for argument sake?

Offence must come because men are not perfect and we are not living in paradise, when presented with favourable occasion, and absent removal of punishment, many men will choose the baser option.

Get my point well, WE ARE ALL at the crossroads of life, the choice is presented to you and to everyone else; choose good or choose offence; you use your freewill to choose, you choose to obey your dark side or your bright side, yin and yang, the choice you make becomes your destiny, that is what you have been predestined to do.


Your statement at the beginning of this page, if I had seen that earlier, I wouldn't have continued with this argument, it has now become an exercise in lame polemics, academic at best, with no utilitarian value.

malvisguy212:
if you use logic that doesn't goes to what scripture say, then you are wrong. Did I give you biblical reference of my explanation ? Yes, I gave you how God use isaiah and jerimiah, He alter history to redeem His purpose. The same thing God did in His plan of salvation, He place judas, pilate and other people in redemtive history for the messiah. This is not logic, this is what the bible say.

Yes, every evangelist preach for repentance, I want you to give your life to christ, if you refuse this, it alright.

AnonyNymous:

Academics? I'm only asking you to explain this in a perfectly logical sense, which you have failed to do.

(the bolded words)
1. You said that human beings are NATURALLY selfish, that was a statement YOU made, and not me, and when I showed you another NATURAL process, you realised how ridiculous it was to say such and told me I cannot compare the two when in fact YOU were the one that made that statement!

2. WE ARE ALL given free will implies that it is also possible for all of us to choose good, and just as there is a chance for some to be good and some to be bad, there is an equal chance for all of us to choose good. Anything apart from this means that we do not have complete free will!

3. I want you to read that statement again and find the fallacy there. 'What you choose becomes your destiny, and that is what you have been PREDESTINED to do'
If there is predestination, there is no choice. Choice means you create a NEW destiny. So that statement makes no sense.

MrPresident1:


So humans are naturally unselfish, is that your point? And your comparison is flawed, you are comparing involuntary reflex digestion with the conscious, voluntary, and deliberateness process of making a choice, where do they meet, where is the point of contiguity? Can you stop your stomach from digesting food?

There is an equal chance to choose good or offence for everyone, and because we are not living in paradise and men are not perfect, and some men cannot overcome their baser propensities, they WILL choose offence in the EXERCISE of their freewill. And what a man chooses becomes his destiny, that is what he is predestined to do!

Your choice is your destiny, and that is what you have been predestined to do.

AnonyNymous:


I'll keep that in mind when I want to get married.
lol.
Conflict does not mean there is no love
There must be differences to appreciate true love. However, you say:
for us to love one another, everyone must love the same thing
That's your opinion
I have mine.
At least it boils down to free will

AnonyNymous:

So, if the bible does not agree with common sense (which it doesn't) then you choose the bible.
ok. I'm not arguing with you again, you've told me your standpoint. You choose what doesn't make sense, because its your beloved bible. What I'm trying to do here is to see if people can actually correlate the bible with common sense, but that's not your mission. I got you. Have a nice day. Please don't quote me again.

AnonyNymous:

If he can choose to be free then he is not a slave. Slaves cannot choose to be free.

Dux01:
what i mean is perfect love is only possible when God is in everyone of us and he would make our minds like minded with his word.that is what i mean by knowing the mind of everyone becoming the mind of Christ and only loving what Christ loves not what self loves which would cause misunderstanding and hatred because what i love you may not like it.