₦airaland Forum

So you're an atheist. Congratulations, at least you aren't wishy washy. As a one time non believer in God myself I won't condemn you. How could I? Some atheists think they've taken a heroic stand, but could it be that they really don't want to face up to the possibility that God is indeed there? I hope you'll be intellectually honest enough to consider what I have to say and see if it makes sense.

No one who has prejudged an issue can be convinced of anything contrary to what he wants to believe. There are still those who insist the earth is flat and no one can convince them otherwise, no matter what the evidence. There are always folks, no matter if religious or atheistic, who stubbornly believe what they prefer, no matter if reason and fact show otherwise. Someone like this has the unspoken philosophy: Don't confuse me with the facts. My mind is already made up. Ask yourself: Am I open-minded or narrow minded? Am I willing to change my mind if I can be shown atheism doesn't make sense?


You might say, If God is there, let him prove it to me. I don't want to take an irrational leap of faith. Fine. In Isaiah 2:18 God says: come let us reason together. He wants us to reason and He certainly wants us to be be rational, but He will not submit himself to human scrutiny; to do so he would need to stop being God! He will not bow to our perverse judgements. Ask yourself, Would I ever be willing to believe God is there, however strong the evidence? You see, your problem may not be in your head as much as in your heart. Perhaps you've already taken a leap of faith. To assert God cannot exist, despite the impossibility of proving that statement, is the ultimate irrational leap!


THE IRRATIONALITY OF ATHEISM

Atheism tends to exalt reason, but it is actually irrational. Atheists tend to put a lot of stock in the emperical method and in logic. One cannot disprove God exists using the emperical method. You might reply: But I can't disprove a giant purple frog on Mars controls the universe, either. Granted, one can never disprove any given thing exists. The atheistic position denying God's existence, if based on the emperical method, is absurd. Why do I say that? In order to prove the assertion No God exists experimentally, one would need to comprehensively know all of reality. Comprehensive knowledge of reality is called omniscience. One would need to be omniscient in order to prove there is no God, but if one were omniscient one would, by definition, already be God! So, based on emperical methodology, the only one capable of disproving the existence of God would be God himself! But some would say you can indeed assert something does not exist if its existence is logically self contradictory, such as a square triangle. By definition it cannot exist. It is illogical for something to be a square and to also be a triangle. Again, granted, but this line of reasoning assumes logic and real meaning exist and are our basis for knowledge --something an atheist has no right to assert! The existence of God is not only logically possible, it is philosophically essential. (We'll get to that more later below.) One cannot prove logic exists unless one first presupposes a God in whom reason and meaning are transcendentally rooted, otherwise these categories are mere philosphical prejuduces. Atheism is inherently self-contradictory.


The evidence for the existence of God is there for all to see, only we refuse to see it. King David wrote: The fool says in his heart there is no God. (Psalm 14:1) In other words, Atheism is irrational. Apart from God there is no basis for truth or ethics. For the sake of brevity, let's simply consider ethics.


NO PHILOSOPHICAL BASIS FOR ETHICS

Beyond dispute there are moral atheists. I ve known atheists who are more ethical than some people claiming to believe in a god. This is not the issue. The question is, why be ethical? Can an adequate basis for morality be found given atheistic premises? Think about it. Unless God exists, there is no eternal and transcendent standard for right and wrong. If God did not give the Ten Commandments to Moses at Sinai, thereby establishing a moral standard above human creation, we are merely left with humanly devised scruples. If humanity is left to create its own ethical standards, we are left with only three options to base ethics upon: 1) collective tradition, 2) human survival, or 3) personal preference.


IS COLLECTIVE TRADITION AN ETHICAL BASE?

Those who argue that morality is properly based upon what society as a whole deems moral have a big problem. What one society says is moral another says is immoral. Nazi Germany held that it was morally good and beneficial to exterminate the Jewish people. The Allies saw the Nazis as evil and fought against them. Who was right? If one believes God gave the law You shall not murder, the answer is obvious. Any society that advocates murder is evil. How can an atheist respond? Most would admit the Nazis were evil, but according to what standard? Were the Nazis evil just because the Allies said they were evil or were they in fact evil? One can try to argue that it isn't just what a few societies say that matters, but what the majority of human societies agree upon. This does provide a better basis, since God has given us a conscience, but it has been corrupted by rebellion. At one time most human societies placed less value on female offspring than on males. In many societies female infants were left to die. In some places this exists today. This is morally wrong, no matter if the whole of human society were to say otherwise! Basing morality on human society does not provide an adequate answer.


WHAT ABOUT HUMAN SURVIVAL

What of an evolutionary model for morality? Why not posit that whatever benefits human survival is moral? To some this may be appealing, but first ask some questions. Why, based upon atheistic assumptions, should we logically value human survival? What difference does it all make? Why is life valuable? Isn't belief in human survival itself a moral assumption, a value judgement that has no basis in an atheistic world view? Furthermore, consider what an ethic based solely on survival could lead to: the elimination of those perceived to have less survival value. The Nazi movement, based upon an evolutionary eugenic ideal of developing a super race, destroyed those deemed by them inferior or unsuitable. Reproduction was to be limited to those deemed most fit. Mankind, when left to its own devices to develop its moral basis, commits systemized murder and oppression. Consider the atrocities of Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, and the horrible situations we have witnessed in Rwanda and Bosnia. Both atheists and religious people so easily justify murder. Just because we have also seen horrors committed by those claiming to believe in some sort of god doesn't disprove my point. I'm not advocating just any old god! It is still true that when any society abandons the God-given law, You shall not murder, horror results.


FEELINGS, NOTHING MORE THAN FEELINGS...

What of basing morality on one's personal preferences? What of just saying you can know what is wrong by following your heart? What a dippy idea this is! Jeffrey Dahmer's heart led him to murder and cannibalize his fellow humans! Basing morality on feelings is the ultimate in irrationality. This puts moral judgement on the level of personal taste. (Kindly read up on Jeffrey Dahmer).

I've met many atheists who are judgmental of religious people who have committed great atrocities, but upon what basis? Does this make any sense? Atheistic assumptions irresistibly lead to the conclusion that morality is nothing more than a matter of personal or societal preference. Based upon an atheistic philosophy, the very appropriate disdain for the despicable murderers of humanity makes about as much sense as a dog lover's disdain of those who prefer cats! How silly. Unless there is a moral standard beyond individual or societal preference, there is no logical basis for condemning atrocity. I challenge any atheist to give me a basis for ethics beyond mere personal preference, social custom, or survival. They simply cannot do it. Post-modern philosophers have come to the conclusion that there is no hope of finding morality or meaning based on materialistic presuppositions. They are quite right. It is a good thing that many atheists are too decent and too inconsistent to live out the irresistible moral conclusions of their philosophy!


Another thought: we even transgress the scruples we ourselves invent. Is this logical? No, but this is consistent with the Biblical view of mankind, which says we are by our nature law-breakers and rebels who don't want to believe in the true God. Thank God there is an amnesty program for rebels and atheists! (More on that later.)


SUPPRESSING THE TRUTH

A wise rabbi, the Apostle Paul, wrote:
The anger of God is being revealed from heaven against all the Godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise they became fools.

God's existence is clearly seen in what He has made. The intricate brilliance of the created order reveals the mind of an infinitely intelligent Designer just as surely as a great work of architecture or a complex piece of technology reveals the mind of its designer. Furthermore, our own consciences and sense of justice, though corrupted by our rebellion, still tell us there is right and wrong and a God who has a perfect moral standard. The truth is, if you are an atheist, it is not because it makes sense, it is because you don't want to face up to the fact that there is a God out there to whom you are accountable. You don't like God and are trying to hide from Him. You need not feel this way. God has provided a way back for you.
How do we know God exists? Unless we begin with the assumption that he does, we can't know anything else exists! Unless we presuppose that God created us with the ability to know things through sensory experience and reason, we have no philosophical basis for trusting either. Philosophically speaking, unless we know a wise God gave us our senses, how can we know everything isn't an illusion? As for reason, we can't prove the validity of reason without using reason! We must assume what we are trying to prove in order to prove it. All human reasoning is circular, but when we leave God out of the circle we are left like a dog chasing its tail without any hope of catching it! Without beginning with the philosophical presupposition that a God who has spoken to mankind exists, we are doomed to reason in circles with no way of knowing how to discern truth.
As for positive proof, there is the communication of God to mankind. Moses received the Law at Sinai. This was attested by great miracles witnessed by millions. The Hebrew prophets foretold the rise and fall of nations and spoke of the coming of a Messiah. Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the Jewish Bible.3 His resurrection is historically documented, having been witnessed by the early Messianic Jewish believers who recorded their testimonies and were willing to die for what they knew to be true.
Many have asked: Does life have meaning? Why do I exist? There is abundant meaning to life when we know the Living God. Frankly, atheism is boring, but knowing, enjoying, and serving God gives life purpose and excitement. On what basis does human life have value? Each of us was created in God's image and therefore each individual is of great value.


AMNESTY FOR ATHEISTS

Good news! There is hope for atheists! After the Vietnam War there were many expatriate Americans living in Canada and other places. An amnesty program was established to welcome these people home. The message was: Come back home. All is forgiven. You will be received back with open arms. God also has an amnesty program. The true God is both just and loving. His justice demands that our rebellion be punished. His love provided a means to fulfill this justice and restore us to a right relationship with him. This is where the Messiah comes in. Out of love for us, God took on a human nature and visited earth to take upon himself the punishment we deserve for our lawbreaking. Jesus died as a substitute for rebels to pay the penalty of those who deserve it, whether religious or atheistic. There is a judgement day coming, and God has proven this to us by raising Jesus from the dead. You have this choice: let the Messiah take your punishment or take it yourself. The choice seems obvious to me! Why turn down a free gift? What a great amnesty program! God wants each of us to admit we are wrong, receive the payment He has provided, and come in with our hands up letting Him rule over our lives. He promises to renew us, to enable us to live a new life in His service, and to let us experience His presence forever. God calls atheists to come back home, spiritually speaking. All can be forgiven, even atheism. God calls atheists to turn from their rebellion and to trust the Living God through his Messiah, Jesus.


STILL NOT CONVINCED?
If you persist in your atheism, one day you will stand before God and you will have no doubt in your mind concerning His existence. His awesome reality will be undeniable to you, even though you won't want to believe it!

naijadeyhia:
NO PHILOSOPHICAL BASIS FOR ETHICS

Beyond dispute there are moral atheists. I ve known atheists who are more ethical than some people claiming to believe in a god. This is not the issue. The question is, why be ethical?

Weah96:
The question you mean to ask is, [size=15pt]why not murder your mother or a small child since there is no reward for sparing their lives when you die?[/size]

Or why not embezzle money or tell lies if no one is going to punish you after death?
Many Christians do exactly those things. So ask yourself, would you enter a police precinct with baggies of cocaine to advertise your cocaine market? When a pastor tells a lie, he automatically shows me that he's an ATHEIST.

Whenever you commit any of your numerous daily sins, it's like you're flirting with a life long prison sentence in the silliest way ever. It's like you're handing business cards for your cocaine dealing business to the cops hoping that they don't beat your brains out.

Why does it sound like you don't know what the atheist argument actually is?

The claims made and implied in the bible are INDEPENDENT of these your questions.

Someone claimed to have communicated with a non human. The non human told the person that it was God the creator and gave them a guide book containing instructions for life. The book ended up in your hands.

Atheists are calling the book writing prophet a liar. In your case, we're saying that anyone who endorsed the compilation of that book was telling LIES. Prove that there is a non human who talks. Then we can decide whether the thing created the universe.

donnffd:
I sincerely would have hoped you ddnt reply him...Live and let live, i would always say

jnrbayano:
There is time in your hands dear friend.

Weah96:
The question you mean to ask is, [size=15pt]why not murder your mother or a small child since there is no reward for sparing their lives when you die?[/size]

Or why not embezzle money or tell lies if no one is going to punish you after death?
Many Christians do exactly those things. So ask yourself, would you enter a police precinct with baggies of cocaine to advertise your cocaine market? When a pastor tells a lie, he automatically shows me that he's an ATHEIST.

Whenever you commit any of your numerous daily sins, it's like you're flirting with a life long prison sentence in the silliest way ever. It's like you're handing business cards for your cocaine dealing business to the cops hoping that they don't beat your brains out.

Why does it sound like you don't know what the atheist argument actually is?

The claims made and implied in the bible are INDEPENDENT of these your questions.

Someone claimed to have communicated with a non human. The non human told the person that it was God the creator and gave them a guide book containing instructions for life. The book ended up in your hands.

Atheists are calling the book writing prophet a liar. In your case, we're saying that anyone who endorsed the compilation of that book was telling LIES. Prove that there is a non human who talks. Then we can decide whether the thing created the universe.

Weah96:
The question you mean to ask is, [size=15pt]why not murder your mother or a small child since there is no reward for sparing their lives when you die?[/size]

Or why not embezzle money or tell lies if no one is going to punish you after death?
Many Christians do exactly those things. So ask yourself, would you enter a police precinct with baggies of cocaine to advertise your cocaine market? When a pastor tells a lie, he automatically shows me that he's an ATHEIST.

Whenever you commit any of your numerous daily sins, it's like you're flirting with a life long prison sentence in the silliest way ever. It's like you're handing business cards for your cocaine dealing business to the cops hoping that they don't beat your brains out.

Why does it sound like you don't know what the atheist argument actually is?

The claims made and implied in the bible are INDEPENDENT of these your questions.

Someone claimed to have communicated with a non human. The non human told the person that it was God the creator and gave them a guide book containing instructions for life. The book ended up in your hands.

Atheists are calling the book writing prophet a liar. In your case, we're saying that anyone who endorsed the compilation of that book was telling LIES. Prove that there is a non human who talks. Then we can decide whether the thing created the universe.

naijadeyhia:
How has the police or laws stopped people from still embezzling funds or being drug pushers even in front of law enforcement?

Weah96:
I write long paragraphs in a few minutes. Some people take an hour. I write how I speak in my head.

My long winded replies rarely take more than 5 mins.

Weah96:
Who pushes drug in front of law enforcement? Every drug dealer conceals his activities from the police.

That's the point. Human beings NATURALLY hide illegal activities from the police. We still break laws, but ONLY because the POLICE don't have cameras EVERYWHERE.

The bible god has CAMERAS everywhere and yet every Christian SINS.

The god cannot be real because no one fears or respects it. Every lie you tell is like flirting with a mandatory death sentence in a burning fire.

You won't disobey ordinary human police in their faces, but I'm expected to believe that you spoke to the creator of the universe and yet still disobey him. Can you hide from the creator as you can hide from the police too? Otherwise, you might as well smoke your igbo at the precinct too

Weah96:
Who pushes drug in front of law enforcement? Every drug dealer conceals his activities from the police.

That's the point. Human beings NATURALLY hide illegal activities from the police. We still break laws, but ONLY because the POLICE don't have cameras EVERYWHERE.

The bible god has CAMERAS everywhere and yet every Christian SINS.

The god cannot be real because no one fears or respects it. Every lie you tell is like flirting with a mandatory death sentence in a burning fire.

You won't disobey ordinary human police in their faces, but I'm expected to believe that you spoke to the creator of the universe and yet still disobey him. Can you hide from the creator as you can hide from the police too? Otherwise, you might as well smoke your igbo at the precinct too

Weah96:
The question you mean to ask is, [size=15pt]why not murder your mother or a small child since there is no reward for sparing their lives when you die?[/size]

Or why not embezzle money or tell lies if no one is going to punish you after death?
Many Christians do exactly those things. So ask yourself, would you enter a police precinct with baggies of cocaine to advertise your cocaine market? When a pastor tells a lie, he automatically shows me that he's an ATHEIST.

Whenever you commit any of your numerous daily sins, it's like you're flirting with a life long prison sentence in the silliest way ever. It's like you're handing business cards for your cocaine dealing business to the cops hoping that they don't beat your brains out.

Why does it sound like you don't know what the atheist argument actually is?

The claims made and implied in the bible are INDEPENDENT of these your questions.

Someone claimed to have communicated with a non human. The non human told the person that it was God the creator and gave them a guide book containing instructions for life. The book ended up in your hands.

Atheists are calling the book writing prophet a liar. In your case, we're saying that anyone who endorsed the compilation of that book was telling LIES. Prove that there is a non human who talks. Then we can decide whether the thing created the universe.

winner01:
If you were not in such a hurry to reply, i believe you would have come up with something much better than this.

hahn:
Long time

winner01:
If you were not in such a hurry to reply, i believe you would have come up with something much better than this.

Weah96:
( ... ) Find another way to announce your presence. It's like you have nothing to say.

naijadeyhia:
You are confusing yourself. If God has cameras everywhere and yet you claim Christians still sin does this not tell you that morality isnt of man or within mans control?

If people still hide to carry out crimes despite the laws or law enforcement being around does it not say the same thing?

If in thd United states crime rate is still high despite the cctv presence everywhere what does that tell you?

Christianity is in stages and not all Christians are born again. There is an ability to overcome sin which many have attained and that then gives you control over immoral actions deliberately or not.

Example; if you have a son and this son loves you hard enough then every word from you would be to him as gold. In your absence he would obey you not because he cannot disobey but because he loves you enough to feel hurt when he thinks about how his actions will hurt you.

However if this same son does not love you then your admonishion would be fruitless because once you are away he will do as he pleases and then pretend to be good when you are around.

When a true believer loves God well and hard enough....righteousness becomes his or her life and not pretence that the law of man causes men to have.

If i put you weah96 in a room all alone and there is 5m somewhere in the same room with no witness or cameras and you find this money would you not begin to strategise on how to sneak it out? You would do so because you are inherently corrupt....even now that you type you are corrupt.

Weah96:
I would try to carry the money out the room because

1. It's possible to evade/circumvent the existing human police system and it's a non violent crime.

2. I have never heard anyone speak other than human beings. So #1 is the only guiding principle for me, as it is for your pastor.

Now, if a non human entity were to suddenly speak to me and managed to convince me that it did create the universe and sponsored the bible, I wouldn't disobey the thing because it would have cameras and recorders everywhere. Are you kidding? I would probably only think about disobedience but to sell cocaine for Malaysian precinct like that , I no fit. Neither would YOU or any ordinary human. No Christian who meets or speak to the bible creator can dare disobey the thing in his face. NOT IF IT WERE TRUE.

I haven't met anyone who likes to roast. Well, maybe Muslims, but only because roasting is their own highway to Allah's paradise.

naijadeyhia:
So to you, you agree you are immoral as long as its not a violent crime.

Weah96:
I would try to carry the money out the room because

1. It's possible to evade/circumvent the existing human police system and it's a non violent crime.

2. I have never heard anyone speak other than human beings. So #1 is the only guiding principle for me, as it is for your pastor.

Now, if a non human entity were to suddenly speak to me and managed to convince me that it did create the universe and sponsored the bible, I wouldn't disobey the thing because it would have cameras and recorders everywhere. Are you kidding? I would probably only think about disobedience but to sell cocaine for Malaysian precinct like that , I no fit. Neither would YOU or any ordinary human. No Christian who meets or speak to the bible creator can dare disobey the thing in his face. NOT IF IT WERE TRUE.

I haven't met anyone who likes to roast. Well, maybe Muslims, but only because roasting is their own highway to Allah's paradise.

Weah96:
If I ever keep you in a room with 5m of my cash, please carry the money go if you can. You would have caught me slipping.

naijadeyhia:
If without the presence of a witness or any cctv you are able to begin planning how to sneak out this money and suddenly if there is a witness or cctv presence you suddenly exercise caution or restraint which then is the real you?

The thief when there is nobody watching or the pretender when someone is?

Weah96:
I'm the person warning you to keep your millions in cash away in a safe place. I don't rob banks or break into houses. My liver no reach.

But you come carry me put for room with millions and no cameras. I'm assuming that the transport over there was hostile otherwise you'll have witnesses.

naijadeyhia:
So both with witnesses or with none you are still immoral is your submission. So why then were you initially talking about more cameras less or no crime if you know that even such cannot stop you from being immoral if you choose to as long as you are not caught?

Weah96:
Cameras are the best form of eyewitness testimony in court. Only R Kelly managed to beat a case with his face on camera.

Keep cameras around your millions. That's what banks do.

naijadeyhia:
Now you are dodging. Answer the question.