Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! - Christianity Etc - Nairaland
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| Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Demmzy15(op): 12:43pm On Jul 31, 2016*. Modified: 12:13am On Aug 01, 2016 |
I saw this article(it's kinda of long, so take your time), it's still in progress. It's debunking the articles of "wikiislam", so I decided to copy this section because it makes alot of sense. A quick reminder for Muslims and also something for atheist, pagans, Christians etc to ponder upon. Please notice the emphasis, they're very important! There are 2 fundamental principles underlying Islam. These principles highlight the base of Islam! The principles that must be applied are that: |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Demmzy15(op): 12:44pm On Jul 31, 2016*. Modified: 1:03pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
Explaining the second principleCc Rilwayne001 lexiconkabir, presbulg, udatso, Newnas, WORDWORLD, contact17, carinmom, Oladim, yazach, Empiree vedaxcool, haffaze777 Hdee, et al. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Nobody: 1:02pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
Ironically, The Old Testament of the Bible has more words of hate, anger and violence than the whole Quran. But more violence is associated with Islam. Therefore it's safe to say, the Quran as a Holy book is more effective than the Bible ![]() |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Nobody: 1:16pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
summary of the OP's Long article. 1. The Quran and all other religious books are clear enough so that those who already believe continue in their beliefs and vague enough so those who doubt continue doubting. 2. Must be written in a form of language such that it's translations give multiple but plausible meanings. so as the keep the believer in shock and awe, and the non-believer dumbfounded ( asking themselves 'does that make any sense?') 3. In other to be with God, you have to pass a test. This test requires you to submit your free will, and obey every rule in the good book. In doing so, you shall enjoy Utopia after you are dead. 4. The Holy Book, is written a such a way that weather you read the book in the 10th century or in the 50th century, it's ascertion will remain valid [ to the believer ] |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by annunaki2(m): 1:27pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
Al taquiya thread. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by truthman2013: 1:54pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
annunaki2:says a confused Christian |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Plappvillemoi(f): 1:55pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
annunaki2:Them want paint allah another color. But we know who allah is. When they shout allah akubar .bomb bomb go kill innocent people. Allah tank go filled up with bood. We know him na ![]() |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Presbulg(m): 3:00pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
Jazakallahu Khayran. Very insightful post. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by masseratti: 8:30pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
The more this doesn't make sense, believe in Koran, it was not written by Mohammed but Revealed to him and recited by the companions, the koran was compiled and authored by the 3rd caliph, saying that i should read something and not make sense and ask questions is telling me white is black and i should just accept it because you say so, even if you are a born Muslim or you convert you must ask questions, our fore fathers asked questions about their gods why cant we? why was dis unity among the companions immediately after the death of the prophet, even before he was buried by Ali And Fathima, it only make sense questions is asked for clarification. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by onetrack(m): 8:40pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
In 3:7 we read:The next sentence in that same verse is also important: "And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah." Well then it's useless to even argue because no one, not even Muhammad, knows its true interpretation. So everyone is free to interpret as they see fit, including me, a non-believer. Life is like a multiple choice exam. If you pick the wrong choices throughout the exam, you will be punished. If you pick the right choices throughout the exam, you will be rewarded! The exam is going to be very difficult and it will have many tricks in it to test you. If the Quran or the universe were presented with clear, 100% proof of certainty in God's existence, then everyone believes in the Quran and in God.But the whole test is pointless. He has no need to test anyone, he is god after all and can do whatever he wants. Testing us seems like a silly game for someone who has no need for it. And if we fail we don't just get punished, we get our skin roasted off. Allah is worse than Hitler or Stalin. The whole thing sounds like a scam to me. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Nobody: 8:55pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
onetrack:Actually here is the full verse "It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding." As you can see from what i underlined, the foundation of the Quran are the precise verses, not the unspecific ones, if you can understand the precise ones, you are good to go, so as Muslims we believe in all, both precise and unspecific as you can see at the end of the verse, infact we can use the precise ones to explain the unspecific ones. But the whole test is pointless. He has no need to test anyone, he is god after all and can do whatever he wants. Testing us seems like a silly game for someone who has no need for it. And if we fail we don't just get punished, we get our skin roasted off. Allah is worse than Hitler or Stalin.So you believe we are in this life by accident? No purpose? |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by onetrack(m): 9:01pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
lexiconkabir:But the sentence still stands that only Allah understands much (all) of the Quran. Which means that a lot of it is useless to people and would only serve to cause division. Notice that Allah does not conveniently specify exactly which verses are clear and which ones are not. So you believe we are in this life by accident? No purpose?I am an existentialist, so I find my own meaning. But there is no inherent purpose to life that I have been able to determine through empirical testing. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Nobody: 9:12pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
onetrack:Which is more? The precise or the unspecific verses? Because i am curious to know how you concluded that muslims don't understand much of the Quran, cuz thats what the underlined is implying... I am an existentialist, so I find my own meaning. But there is no inherent purpose to life that I have been able to determine through empirical testing.So in your quest of looking for your own meanings, have you been able to know why everything in our universe are positioned the way they are? Why only earth is the only planet where HUMAN can live without complications? |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by masseratti: 11:48pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
onetrack:Am not an atheist, but The koran was revealed or handed down to Mohammed? or was it written down by the third caliph? |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Demmzy15(op): 12:12am On Aug 01, 2016 |
masseratti:The Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad(SAW) in which he dictated to his companions who wrote it down. It was standardized by the 3rd Caliph like we have today! |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by masseratti: 1:16am On Aug 01, 2016 |
Demmzy15:no records of any companion writing it down, it was recited orally and written down by the 3rd caliph, why would anyone one want to standardise a perfect book? kindly explain what standardized means please. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by true2god: 6:45am On Aug 01, 2016 |
masseratti:If the Koran was standardized and yet poorly written and arranged (the worst book ever written in terms of taught arrangements and grammatical structuring), only God knows how it looked like prior the alleged 'standardization'. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by onetrack(m): 7:31am On Aug 01, 2016 |
masseratti:I apply Occam's razor to this. Books are written by people, this is provable and knowable. I have never seen a book from a source other than people. Therefore I presume that all books are written by people. The Quran is no exception; there is nothing unusual about it as a book. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by onetrack(m): 7:38am On Aug 01, 2016 |
lexiconkabir:I'm simply quoting the Quran, which says that only Allah understands its true meaning. This necessarily means that no one else does, including Muslims. So in your quest of looking for your own meanings, have you been able to know why everything in our universe are positioned the way they are? Why only earth is the only planet where HUMAN can live without complications?I think that physics and chemistry can explain this quite well. In any case, humans do not live here without complications, life was actually quite difficult until modern scientists figured out ways to improve our survival. And there are still lots of complications. And in terms of evolution, humans evolved in response to the environment which explains why we exist in the form that we do and why we survive on earth. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Nobody: 7:46am On Aug 01, 2016 |
onetrack:Quote where Allaah said MOST of the Quran is not precise.....only then can you make that assertion for Allaah said only HE The most Gracious knows the meaning of the unspecific verses. I think that physics and chemistry can explain this quite well. In any case, humans do not live here without complications, life was actually quite difficult until modern scientists figured out ways to improve our survival. And there are still lots of complications. And in terms of evolution, humans evolved in response to the environment which explains why we exist in the form that we do and why we survive on earth.You live in conplications? Do you find it hard to get fresh air? Is it always hot throughout the year? A quick question – you sound llke you subscribe to the evolution theory, do you? |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by annunaki2(m): 8:52am On Aug 01, 2016 |
true2god:Very good observation. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Nobody: 8:56am On Aug 01, 2016 |
onetrack:First of all it wasn't written. It was revealed by God. There are many things that make the Qur'an stand out and one of them is it's sciences. The Qur'an which was revealed 14000 years ago contains many scientific knowledge which was just discovered in recent times. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Nobody: 8:58am On Aug 01, 2016 |
masseratti:There were records of the the companions writing it down in order to memorize it during the life of the Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him). It was NOT written by the third caliph. It was actually compiled during the times caliph when many Muslims who memorized the Qur'an were being killed. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by annunaki2(m): 9:03am On Aug 01, 2016 |
Demmzy15:Effectively what you just succeeded in telling us is that it was the third caliph that determined what made it into allah's 'holy' book. He compiled and edited it. What is the guarantee that he didn't add his words and ideas to it. Why was allah incapable of standardising his own words that he claims to be protecting. Also what happened to parts of the original manuscript eaten up by a goat? Why couldn't allah 'protect' his word from that goat and why didn't allah replace the missing parts that the goat ate? |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Nobody: 9:07am On Aug 01, 2016 |
This is for serious minded people only.Trolls shouldn't be responded to. I can already see them trooping in as usual. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by onetrack(m): 9:10am On Aug 01, 2016 |
Contact17:The little 'science' that is in the Quran comes from torturing the verses until they appear to say what you want them to. This is the same with any other religious text. I've read the Quran and looked at the claims made about science, and have seen more errors than true facts. We don't need to go over them again, I'm comfortable in rejecting these claims. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by onetrack(m): 9:24am On Aug 01, 2016 |
lexiconkabir:Actually the author of the Quran says that only Allah knows its true meaning, therefore all of it, however it says that some verses are clear, but does not say which ones. So I guess we are left to guess whatever is meant by it and what proportion is unclear. Interestingly, the tafsir Ibn Kathir says that scholars cannot agree over whether or not the verse should read "And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge..." or if it should be read "And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge..." So maybe 3:7 itself is one of those unclear verses that people should not try to explain. Very convoluted and confusing. You live in conplications? Do you find it hard to get fresh air? Is it always hot throughout the year? A quick question – you sound llke you subscribe to the evolution theory, do you?Humans cannot live anywhere on earth, such as at the polar regions or under the oceans (yet). I absolutely subscribe to the theory of evolution as being the only current valid explanation for the diversity of species. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by masseratti: 9:33am On Aug 01, 2016 |
Contact17:i would love to see the source of companions writing it down please, its well known that it was written down after many of the companions who memorized it were killed in battle, the third caliph author the Koran. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Nobody: 9:54am On Aug 01, 2016*. Modified: 12:46pm On Aug 01, 2016 |
onetrack:The verses in the Qur'an are clear. There does not need to be any twisting or "torturing of verses" to prove anything. It has been the same since over 1400 years ago since it was revealed to an man who was unable to read or write. Well-known and famous scientists themselves have commented on the science of the Qur'an and proclaimed its' authenticity. For example the origin of the universe. Scientist agree that at some point everything existed a cloud of ‘smoke’ (i.e. an opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition). This was recorded in the Qur’an Then He turned to the heaven when it was smoke... (Quran, 41:11) Because the earth and the heavens above (the sun, the moon, stars, planets, galaxies, etc.) have been formed from this same ‘smoke,’ we conclude that the earth and the heavens were one connected entity. Then out of this homogeneous ‘smoke,’ they formed and separated from each other. God has said in the Quran: Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?... There are also many other verses in the Quran and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad that not only talks about science but mention future events which later came to pass. Some of them are still to come to pass- for example the rising of the sun from the west. Scientist have discovered the possiblity of the sun rising from the west due to switiching of magnetic poles. This was reported 1400 years ago by the prophet (peace and blesssing be upon him) who said: “The Hour will not begin until the sun rises from its place of setting. When it rises from its place of setting, all people will believe, but on that day ‘no good will it do to a person to believe then, if he believed not before,’ [al-An’aam 6:158].” Lastly, science is unreliable. New theories and ideas are always being created. Before people were praised for saying the earth is flat but now people are criticized for saying the exact same thing. Whilst science is always changing, the Qur'an will never change. It will always remain one and the same, conveying the truth at all times. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Nobody: 10:03am On Aug 01, 2016 |
masseratti:It was written down but not complied during the time of the Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him). Notice the difference in the wording. Anyways evidence that it was written down during the time of the prophets is in a famous hadith where Umar (who later became one of the caliph) went to his sisters' house to confront her about being a Muslim. Umar came to the door (of the house of his sister) as Khabbab (a companion of the Prophet) was studying under her guidance the Sura Taha. When he came in, his sister saw that he meant mischief and hid the sheets from which they were reading. They were being taught by someone who had written it down after learning it from the prophet (peace and blessing be upon him). |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by masseratti: 3:08pm On Aug 01, 2016 |
Contact17:thank you, good explanation, over the years have been made to believe Mohammed was handed down the koran on a specific night of revelation, never knew it spans over 20years, question is, is it not possible for the 3rd caliph to have alter the manuscripts to suit his claim to be leader since there was still a debate on the legitimacy of the caliphs after the death of the prophet? |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Nobody: 3:19pm On Aug 01, 2016*. Modified: 4:23pm On Aug 01, 2016 |
masseratti:No.There wasn't any debate according to my knowledge, the people appointed who was best to become the caliph. Someone was assigned to go to all the Muslims who had memorized the Qur'an by heart in order to compile it into one book. If there was any alteration it would have been noticed. There was a philosopher who tried to 'test' the Muslims during that time. He changed a vowel (if I remember correctly) and the Muslims noticed and told him this isn't the Qur'an. Muslims also have reasons to believe that that the Qur'an has not been tampered with. We have a verse in the Qur'an where God promises to preserve it. Even till this day the Qur'an is one and same regardless of the part of the world one is in. |
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