₦airaland Forum

honourhim:
Cheap liar..
If my belief is irrelevant to you then you wouldn't have responded to a post I made to someone else in the first place..

And dis proves dat ur sky daddy exists... Halleluyah!!

4kings:
Sorry again for pitching into ur convo with hardmirror.
But how do u differentiate an Omnipotent's foreknowledge with predestination.

In foreknowledge, he has fore seen how YOU will make use of the gifts/opportunities he has endowed you with and its resultant effect, Here you are the one that will make use of what you have.

Predestination means he programmed every of your actions.And to this i say NO. If our entire life are predestined then why the emphasis on prayer, repentance, why the offer to choose in the bible etc?

honourhim:
In foreknowledge, he has fore seen how YOU will make use of the gifts/opportunities he has endowed you with and its resultant effect, Here you are the one that will make use of what you have.

Predestination means he programmed every of your actions.And to this i say NO. If our entire life are predestined then why the emphasis on prayer, repentance, why the offer to choose in the bible etc?

Predestination does not necessary mean that EVERY action has been programmed. But the fate of an individual has been foreordained, and no matter any action he takes, it will still lead to his fate.
Besides, how can a God(omini-potent/science) posses foreknowledge of the fate of every person he is about to create and then creating them, not charge with predestination. (Sorry for the grammatical blunder if any, but I hope u get my point)



N.B, i'm still waiting for your response to my other question.

4kings:
@honourhim sorry for bombarding u with questions, but I want to talk a little bit on 'higher purpose' that u previously stated.

According to Paul's and Luke's view on this in romans 2 : 21 and acts 10 : 34 respectively, God does not show favouritism.
Also in 1corinthians 15 : 9 & 10, Paul indicates that his feat was based on his labour, though by god's guidance.

Also in 1corinthians 12 where gifts was talked about, there was no indication that it was inborn, but a phenomenon that is to be coveted and bestowed on those that believe.

Again Paul said in romans 12 : 3, that the *same* grace given to him, was given to all believers, *so that no one will think highly of himself*.

So please also explain what u mean by 'some men having higher purpose'.

The parable of the talents simply explains this. Some are given five, three, two talents respectively.

honourhim:
The parable of the talents simply explains this. Some are given five, three, two talents respectively.

Nope, the parables of jesus is just an allegory used to make a point, in this case responsibility and discipline.
If u think that Jesus's parables were meant to be taken literally then a christian should pluck out his eye in order to avoid sin (just an example).

Besides Paul made the issue on purpose very clear, from the scriptures I gave u. He even said in 1corinthians 15:9&10 that though he persecuted Christians before his conversion, that still his success compared to the other Disciples
was because of his LABOUR (through gods grace), meaning if he was less hardworking he would have not made as much impact in the gospel as he did.
Are u insinuating that Paul committed heresy?




I am trying to establish a point, but ur views so far are not going in line with the real stories of the bible. I probably might not be getting ur point clearly, so please try to explain, especially for readers.

Basically U Saying We Humans Don't Have That FreeWill In Which Ur Religion Claim We Have!! And By The Way God Created Us For What?? Pleasure?? Remember Mary??

No Free Will Again!!

So Now Its Not Devil That Take Away Life Tell Me More??

People God Failed The All Loving God Test Now He Can Kill However He Wishes!! Now I Know Why He Love The Smell Of Burnt Flesh

Were Is The Free Will U Preach About Hypocrite

So God Ain't Our Father Again So All Those Pastors Had Been Lying That They Talk To God ?? WHAT Is This Personal Relationship Christians Claim To Have With God

.pls u guys should stop blaming God for the wrongdoings of humans.our leaders are the ones responsible for war,hunger,poor health,disaster.our greed for their campaign handout is responsible for voting for them in the first place

all4UGOD:
.pls u guys should stop blaming God for the wrongdoings of humans.our leaders are the ones responsible for war,hunger,poor health,disaster.our greed for their campaign handout is responsible for voting for them in the first place

Huh? What does voting and campaign handout have to do with this discussion?

4kings:
Nope, the parables of jesus is just an allegory used to make a point, in this case responsibility and discipline.
If u think that Jesus's parables were meant to be taken literally then a christian should pluck out his eye in order to avoid sin (just an example).

Besides Paul made the issue on purpose very clear, from the scriptures I gave u. He even said in 1corinthians 15:9&10 that though he persecuted Christians before his conversion, that still his success compared to the other Disciples
was because of his LABOUR (through gods grace), meaning if he was less hardworking he would have not made as much impact in the gospel as he did.
Are u insinuating that Paul committed heresy?




I am trying to establish a point, but ur views so far are not going in line with the real stories of the bible. I probably might not be getting ur point clearly, so please try to explain, especially for readers.

The point here i am trying to make here is that what was shared was not shared evenly/equally. Call it talent or responsibility or purpose or anything It was shared in various degrees. If we say because its a parable then we ignore the method of sharing then we are not being fair to the lessons of the parable. If the method of sharing wasnt important then it wouldnt have been mentioned. You and i know that this is true about life. We are not given the same level of talent/gifts. Someone can be gifted in various things while another will be in just one or two things. These are happening even in today's life which corroborates this parable.
The man with the five talents got higher than others and that supports what i said that some people are given higher purpose. Purpose as we are talking about here is not different from responsibility. Paul carried out more responsibility than the others.
The issue of being hardworking, as you mentioned, is also important because the people put their talent to work in order to gain more. They were also disciplined. Your points are valid too.

4kings:
Predestination does not necessary mean that EVERY action has been programmed. But the fate of an individual has been foreordained, and no matter any action he takes, it will still lead to his fate.
Besides, how can a God(omini-potent/science) posses foreknowledge of the fate of every person he is about to create and then creating them, not charge with predestination. (Sorry for the grammatical blunder if any, but I hope u get my point)



N.B, i'm still waiting for your response to my other question.

Let me put my points this way-

1. The world was predestined to have good and evil operational in it. Its a battle field for good and evil. It is this battle between good and evil that makes our choices swing. Our choices swing because we are created to freely make choices. If we were created to be rigid then their wont be swinging between choices rather we will be a kind of one directional, choiceless entities.
2. The fate of our choices are predestined. We either suffer or enjoy based on the choices we made and not because of ourselves as individuals. For example if Anthony refuses to repent and goes to hell fire at the end of his life here, he went there because it is predestined that unrepentant sinners will end up in hell fire. He didnt go there because he is Anthony.
3. God creates us with the ability to choose. Taking a look into our future he foresees how we will make use of that ability. Remember that what influences our choices are what we meet/see/hear or experience(etc,) in life. Its not as if we make choices like a programmed robot. Most times we feel so good with the choice we have made and sometimes celebrate the outcome.
In the case of Eve she met with the deceiver, then looked at the forbidden fruit and found it appealing and decided to eat it. She simply succumbed to the evil force by her choice.
Sometimes too there could be divine intervention in our choices as a result of prayers made by us or by our loved ones on our behalf.

N.B. I am not ruling you out because i dont have monopoly of bible knowledge. I keep learning the bible- sometimes through discussions like this and through other ways. Still contribute more on where you think i didnt address properly.

honourhim:
The point here is that what was shared was not shared evenly. Call it talent or responsibility or purpose or anything It was shared in various degrees. If we say because its a parable then we ignore the method of sharing then we are not being fair to the lessons of the parable. If the method of sharing wasnt important then it wouldnt have been mentioned. You and i know that this is true about life. We are not given the same level of talent/gifts. Someone can be gifted in various things while another will be in just one or two things. These are happening even in today's life which corroborates this parable.
The man with the five talents got higher than others and that supports what i said that some people are given higher purpose. Purpose as we are talking about here is not different from responsibility. Paul carried out more responsibility than the others.
The issue of being hardworking, as you mentioned, is also important because the people put their talent to work in order to gain more. They were also disciplined. Your points are valid too.

Addressing your assertion 'You and i know that this is true about life', I don't believe in gifts and talent, but passion, discipline and opportunity.

Anyways now I get ur point, 'The point here is that what was shared was not shared evenly', your opinion though.

Let me see ur other post.

honourhim:
Let me put my points this way-

1. The world was predestined to have good and evil operational in it. Its a battle field for good and evil. It is this battle between good and evil that makes our choices swing. Our choices swing because we are created to freely make choices. If we were created to be rigid then their wont be swinging between choices rather we will be a kind of one directional, choiceless entities.
2. The fate of our choices are predestined. We either suffer or enjoy based on the choices we made and not because of ourselves as individuals. For example if Anthony refuses to repent and goes to hell fire at the end of his life here, he went there because it is predestined that unrepentant sinners will end up in hell fire. He didnt go there because he is Anthony.
3. God creates us with the ability to choose. Taking a look into our future he foresees how we will make use of that ability. Remember that what influences our choices are what we meet/see/hear or experience(etc,) in life. Its not as if we make choices like a programmed robot. Most times we feel so good with the choice we have made and sometimes celebrate the outcome.
In the case of Eve she met with the deceiver, then looked at the forbidden fruit and found it appealing and decided to eat it. She simply succumbed to the evil force by her choice.
Sometimes too there could be divine intervention in our choices as a result of prayers made by us or by our loved ones on our behalf.

N.B. I am not ruling you out because i dont have monopoly of bible knowledge. I keep learning the bible- sometimes through discussions like this and through other ways. Still contribute more on where you think i didnt address properly.

I understand ur view of fate in relation to bad or good choices.
But in the third point u raised 'God creates us with the ability to choose'.
So how did he know for sure of the fate of Jacob and Esau, what if Jacob had chosen not to aspire for a kingdom but just to be a normal moral man or be bad, also what would have happened if Jeremiah had chosen not to be a prophet(jer1:5), what IF ur Jesus had chosen to keep quiet because of fear of death, what if Paul (Galatians1:15) had still chosen to persecute the Christians out of arrogance, what if moses (Genesis 15:13&14) accepted a title in egypt??
Let me just not go on.



BTW, when responding don't dwell on jesus's part.

4kings:
Huh? What does voting and campaign handout have to do with this discussion?

.why leave out the bad leadership part?
u show me hungry and starving Somalian kid,and ask me why should God allow this evil?.is it God that told their leaders to go into war b/c of greed and love for money and power?learn to take responsibility for every action.Don't blame GOD for the evil of man. hope u got it?

all4UGOD:
.why leave out the bad leadership part?
u show me hungry and starving Somalian kid,and ask me why should God allow this evil?.is it God that told their leaders to go into war b/c of greed and love for money and power?learn to take responsibility for every action.Don't blame GOD for the evil of man. hope u got it?

Look what Moses the man who claimed that God allowed him to see his shadow commanded in this scripture Numbers 31:17, (just an example).
Or wasn't he backed by God?

4kings:
Look what Moses the man who claimed that God allowed him to see his shadow commanded in this scripture Numbers 31:17, (just an example).
Or wasn't he backed by God?

.
now don't quote the bible half way.did u read the part that said they disobeyed .that their disobedience caused innocent people to die.will u prefer that the innocent die b/c of the evil of the guilty.?

all4UGOD:
.
now don't quote the bible half way.did u read the part that said they disobeyed .that their disobedience caused innocent people to die.will u prefer that the innocent die b/c of the evil of the guilty.?

Seriously, because they 'disobeyed'.
Have u been to Lagos, if so why hasn't any man of God followed the leadership of Moses and attack any of the perpetrators of atrocities commited here.
Just in case u want to play the old testament card, your Jesus said in Mathew 5:17, that he has not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.

4kings:
Seriously, because they 'disobeyed'.
Have u been to Lagos, if so why hasn't any man of God followed the leadership of Moses and attack any of the perpetrators of atrocities commited here.
Just in case u want to play the old testament card, your Jesus said in Mathew 5:17, that he has not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.

.
this is exactly my point.moses was not just a prophet but also a leader.now ,if our leaders are honest to themselves then they should make those evil men pay for their atrocities.eg Chinese politicians don't steal public funds b/c there is consequence.but here public thieves are celebrated. so ,in ur opinion the pastor should disobey Ambode's authority , laws of the land and take the law into their hands?. The truth is that the justice system allowed
those evil and
NOT GOD.

all4UGOD:
.
this is exactly my point.moses was not just a prophet but also a leader.now ,if our leaders are honest to themselves then they should make those evil men pay for their atrocities.eg Chinese politicians don't steal public funds b/c there is consequence.but here public thieves are celebrated. so ,in ur opinion the pastor should disobey Ambode's authority , laws of the land and take the law into their hands?. The truth is that the justice system allowed
those evil and
NOT GOD.

I respect your opinion, so I won't go any further. Adios

4kings:
I respect your opinion, so I won't go any further. Adios

.have a very wonderful and joy filled day. gd morning dear.

4kings:
I understand ur view of fate in relation to bad or good choices.
But in the third point u raised 'God creates us with the ability to choose'.
So how did he know for sure of the fate of Jacob and Esau, what if Jacob had chosen not to aspire for a kingdom but just to be a normal moral man or be bad, also what would have happened if Jeremiah had chosen not to be a prophet(jer1:5), what IF ur Jesus had chosen to keep quiet because of fear of death, what if Paul (Galatians1:15) had still chosen to persecute the Christians out of arrogance, what if moses (Genesis 15:13&14) accepted a title in egypt??
Let me just not go on.



BTW, when responding don't dwell on jesus's part.

If they had chosen not to do what God wanted them to do God would have sought for others. That's the point I was making when we started that God may want you to do something but you can choose not to do it. He doesn't impose.
Take the case of Moses, he had series of dialogue with God when God called him for the assignment. He presented some excuses to opt out but God used signs and words of encouragement to CONVINCE him.

honourhim:
If they had chosen not to do what God wanted them to do God would have sought for others. That's the point I was making when we started that God may want you to do something but you can choose not to do it. He doesn't impose.
Take the case of Moses, he had series of dialogue with God when God called him for the assignment. He presented some excuses to opt out but God used signs and words of encouragement to CONVINCE him.

Addressing the statement, 'He doesn't impose', did u know that ur God sought to kill moses (exodus4:24), just because of his doubt and fear?,read from verse 1 to understand, also remember the case of Jonah.

When I asked u about the fate of the men of God in the bible in relation to the choices they could have taken, I added scriptures of where they were spoken of, apparently u didn't read them. So let me make my point clear according to the reply u gave:
How can an omni-potent/science God, who u said created All men with purpose(whether great or average), foretell about a person, and because the person refused to walk in it, then he imposes his plan on another, and if the other person refuses to walk in it then he .......(I think u get my point), bearing in mind that u said all men were created for a purpose. Or are u insinuating that your God created the ''just in case class of people''?
Also note that those who were foretold about and what they were supposed to do, that the dates/periods were also spoken about just like in the case of moses(gen15:13, after 400 years) and Jesus(in daniel12:11-12), that's all I can remember, and Bible scholars have also confirmed this dates and others that were foretold.





Please note that though I don't believe in Yahweh, I am not trying to castigate you, but just to get a honest opinion on different biblical issues(such as this: Purpose) from a thinking christian. So I must say I am enjoying this discussion unlike most of your other brothers in Christ here on nairaland.

4kings:
Addressing the statement, 'He doesn't impose', did u know that ur God sought to kill moses (exodus4:24), just because of his doubt and fear?,read from verse 1 to understand, also remember the case of Jonah.

From verses 1-17 of the Exodus 4 that you quoted, God had a thorough dialogue with Moses where he did convincing signs for him and also gave him encouraging words.
From verses 18-20 Moses embarked on the assignment God gave to him, his father also gave his consent and wished him well. He didnt disobey God and there is nothing to show that what God did in verse 24 was because he was angry with Moses for being doubtful and afraid. Verse 24 didnt also show any form of imposition because Moses had already been convinced and had embarked on the assignment BEFORE the verse 24 incident, which happened while he was on his way to Egypt.
In verse 28 Moses told Aaron all that God told him and the signs he commanded him to do. He never mentioned the verse 24 incidence as one of the experiences he had with God concerning that matter.
Obviously what happened in verse 24 was irrelevant to that matter at hand. Only God knows why what happened in verse 24 happened.
In the case of Jonah, he suffered the consequences of choosing not to obey God. Remember i said that there is no absolute freedom anywhere in this world. While you are very free to choose what you want to do, you are not very free to choose not to suffer the consequences of your actions. Some people repent while facing the consequences of their action while some others stand their ground and face it even to the point of dying. In the case of Jonah, he repented while facing the consequences of his actions.
God is still in charge so he cannot just be watching us without making interventions. God plays his part, man plays his part and other creatures play theirs too.

4kings:
When I asked u about the fate of the men of God in the bible in relation to the choices they could have taken, I added scriptures of where they were spoken of, apparently u didn't read them.

Sorry, my bad. I read some and used it to reply. I usually have very tight schedule which gives me limited time here. If you noticed, most of my replies to you come late in the night only a few comes in the day time and those ones are usually short replies.

4kings:
So let me make my point clear according to the reply u gave:
How can an omni-potent/science God, who u said created All men with purpose(whether great or average), foretell about a person, and because the person refused to walk in it, then he imposes his plan on another, and if the other person refuses to walk in it then he .......(I think u get my point), bearing in mind that u said all men were created for a purpose. Or are u insinuating that your God created the ''just in case class of people''?

He foretells what he saw.(i mean the event as it happened) Whoever he saw that carried the assignment will surely carry it out and thats the one he speaks out. The once he saw cannot carry the assignment has no need to be mentioned. We cant tell how many people he sought for before getting the one who truly will carry it out which he foretold . So the issue of the one he has seen carried it out turning around to say no does not arise here. I dont know if you understood my point here anyway.

4kings:
Also note that those who were foretold about and what they were supposed to do, that the dates/periods were also spoken about just like in the case of moses(gen15:13, after 400 years) and Jesus(in daniel12:11-12), that's all I can remember, and Bible scholars have also confirmed this dates and others that were foretold.

In the case of Genesis 15;13 that you quoted, God was voicing his foreknowledge about the children of Abraham. If you read from verse 1 of that chapter you will notice that Abraham had a friendly discussion with God which led to that pronouncement in verse 13. If the pronouncement was about predestination then it wouldnt have been that of a sad news that Abraham's children will go into captivity for 400 years.
I mean, if Abraham and God were quarelling before that pronouncement then one would ve had some grounds to believe that it was because God was angry that he decided to make children who will go into captivity for Abraham, at least to punish his emotions.'
This is not to say that divine intervention cannot play out in some issues.

4kings:
Please note that though I don't believe in Yahweh,

YAhweh is Jewish name for God. In Igbo he is Chineke, in Yoruba he is Oluwa and so on.

4kings:
I am not trying to castigate you, but just to get a honest opinion on different biblical issues(such as this: Purpose) from a thinking christian.

yea i understand you bro. I am not rigid on biblical matters. I am always open to discussion so as to learn more. Your points are not irrelevant in this discussion i must say. They also make impact in my bible reasoning so i appreciate.

4kings:
So I must say I am enjoying this discussion unlike most of your other brothers in Christ here on nairaland.

Me too. Its been quite a good and enjoyable discussion for me. Cheers.

honourhim:
From verses 1-17 of the Exodus 4 that you quoted, God had a thorough dialogue with Moses where he did convincing signs for him and also gave him encouraging words.
From verses 18-20 Moses embarked on the assignment God gave to him, his father also gave his consent and wished him well. He didnt disobey God and there is nothing to show that what God did in verse 24 was because he was angry with Moses for being doubtful and afraid. Verse 24 didnt also show any form of imposition because Moses had already been convinced and had embarked on the assignment BEFORE the verse 24 incident, which happened while he was on his way to Egypt.
In verse 28 Moses told Aaron all that God told him and the signs he commanded him to do. He never mentioned the verse 24 incidence as one of the experiences he had with God concerning that matter.
Obviously what happened in verse 24 was irrelevant to that matter at hand. Only God knows why what happened in verse 24 happened.
In the case of Jonah, he suffered the consequences of choosing not to obey God. Remember i said that there is no absolute freedom anywhere in this world. While you are very free to choose what you want to do, you are not very free to choose not to suffer the consequences of your actions. Some people repent while facing the consequences of their action while some others stand their ground and face it even to the point of dying. In the case of Jonah, he repented while facing the consequences of his actions.
God is still in charge so he cannot just be watching us without making interventions. God plays his part, man plays his part and other creatures play theirs too.

Seriously, you really think your God's action\inaction(what he had in mind) was irrelevant, anyway let me not go further, so as not to derail the object of this convo.

honourhim:
Sorry, my bad. I read some and used it to reply. I usually have very tight schedule which gives me limited time here. If you noticed, most of my replies to you come late in the night only a few comes in the day time and those ones are usually short replies.

OK, I understand.

honourhim:
He foretells what he saw.(i mean the event as it happened) Whoever he saw that carried the assignment will surely carry it out and thats the one he speaks out. The once he saw cannot carry the assignment has no need to be mentioned. We cant tell how many people he sought for before getting the one who truly will carry it out which he foretold . So the issue of the one he has seen carried it out turning around to say no does not arise here. I dont know if you understood my point here anyway.

Wow, never heard of this kind of explanation.
However, based on your explanation, if he foretells what he has seen already, then don't u think that it doesn't make sense for Him to later get angry at moses and refusing the chances of him getting into the promise land?, also it wouldn't make sense if u compare what I just said to the case of Adam and Eve. Let me also bring a good part; it wouldn't also make sense in that scenario, where moses acted as an intermediary(Jesus like), when God was angry at the Israelite and wanted to wipe them away. Right or wrong? Explain.

honourhim:
In the case of Genesis 15;13 that you quoted, God was voicing his foreknowledge about the children of Abraham. If you read from verse 1 of that chapter you will notice that Abraham had a friendly discussion with God which led to that pronouncement in verse 13. If the pronouncement was about predestination then it wouldnt have been that of a sad news that Abraham's children will go into captivity for 400 years.
I mean, if Abraham and God were quarelling before that pronouncement then one would ve had some grounds to believe that it was because God was angry that he decided to make children who will go into captivity for Abraham, at least to punish his emotions.'
This is not to say that divine intervention cannot play out in some issues.

I get u, ur explanation of the points I raised will make this clearer.

honourhim:
YAhweh is Jewish name for God. In Igbo he is Chineke, in Yoruba he is Oluwa and so on.

I mean I don't believe in the ideology behind Yahweh the Jewish\christain God. Though I'm not an atheist, I just have a deistic view about God and a gnostic view on some natural\seemingly extraordinary events.

honourhim:
yea i understand you bro. I am not rigid on biblical matters. I am always open to discussion so as to learn more. Your points are not irrelevant in this discussion i must say. They also make impact in my bible reasoning so i appreciate.

Great.

honourhim:
Me too. Its been quite a good and enjoyable discussion for me. Cheers.

OK then.

4kings:
Wow, never heard of this kind of explanation.
However, based on your explanation, if he foretells what he has seen already, then don't u think that it doesn't make sense for Him to later get angry at moses and refusing the chances of him getting into the promise land?, also it wouldn't make sense if u compare what I just said to the case of Adam and Eve. Let me also bring a good part; it wouldn't also make sense in that scenario, where moses acted as an intermediary(Jesus like), when God was angry at the Israelite and wanted to wipe them away. Right or wrong? Explain.

.

.

One thing u will understand is that God is communicating with man, and in doing this he has to do it in the level we can understand. To drive the message of how he abhors sin or loves good, he has to communicate it in our level of understanding. A close example is when an adult is teaching kids in kindergarten, she will speak and act like them in order to communicate with them properly. It doesn't mean that that's the way the adult talks and behaves.

honourhim:
One thing u will understand is that God is communicating with man, and in doing this he has to do it in the level we can understand. To drive the message of how he abhors sin or loves good, he has to communicate it in our level of understanding. A close example is when an adult is teaching kids in kindergarten, she will speak and act like them in order to communicate with them properly. It doesn't mean that that's the way the adult talks and behaves.

I don't get.

4kings:
I don't get.

I mean that if God forsees an evil act or bad choice he will be angry because he hates sin but he will still need to communicate it to man in order to drive that message. He will make his anger known when man has committed the sin but it doesn't mean he was just seeing the sin and getting angry at the time you committed it.
If God should be displaying anger over all the sins we will commit in life when we start forming in our mother's womb or on the day we are born you can imagine how ugly and confusing it will look to us having been created not to forsee our future like God
For example, if when Moses was born God starts saying-"Moses you will see the land but you won't enter there. Moses don't even beg me...." You can imagine how confused people around will be.

honourhim:
I mean that if God forsees an evil act or bad choice he will be angry because he hates sin but he will still need to communicate it to man in order to drive that message. He will make his anger known when man has committed the sin but it doesn't mean he was just seeing the sin and getting angry at the timr you committed it.
If God should be displaying anger over all the sins we will commit in life when we start forming in our mother's womb or on the day we are born you can imagine how ugly and confusing it will look to us having been created not to forsee our future like God
For example, if when Moses was born God starts saying-"Moses you will see the land but you won't enter there. Moses don't even beg me...." You can imagine how confused people around will be.

So basically, u are saying God intended to create the universe, saw beforehand that eve would fall, also saw beforehand hand that he would get angry and create hell of eternal torture for men and fallen angels, and still he went on with the mission?

4kings:
So basically, u are saying God intended to create the universe, saw beforehand that eve would fall,

Infact lets start from Lucifer period. God knew before hand that lucifer will fall and still went ahead to create him. God also knew that man will fall and still went ahead to create him. The scripture talked about Christ as the lamb of God slain from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
The shows that the redemption plan for man was made from the Beginning of the creation of this world.
For him to have gone ahead to allow things go on despite foreseeing it shows he wants it that way for some reasons we may quess.

What if God being a creator possesses the attribute to create both what he likes and what he hates- i.e. good and evil, positive and negative, strong and weak etc. as it appears to be?
And if we should be shocked at the above poser, then the next question willl be- who defines what God should posses and what he should not possess in order to be God? is it we the created? I mean do we have the right to say because Gof allowed so and so things he doesnt qualofy to be God?
Does God even want us to see him as one who will not allow evil on us because he loves us? If he wanted that he wouldnt have created any being that will bring evil into the world in the first place.

4kings:
also saw beforehand hand that he would get angry and create hell of eternal torture for men and fallen angels, and still he went on with the mission?

And in line with his attributes to create good and evil, what if one of his attribute include creating a place of total punishment for beings who ends up in evil and a place of total comfort for beings who end up good?
These are some of the questions i do ponder in my hearts. Kindly share you opinion.

honourhim:
Infact lets start from Lucifer period. God knew before hand that lucifer will fall and still went ahead to create him. God also knew that man will fall and still went ahead to create him. The scripture talked about Christ as the lamb of God slain from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
The shows that the redemption plan for man was made from the Beginning of the creation of this world.
For him to have gone ahead to allow things go on despite foreseeing it shows he wants it that way for some reasons we may quess.

Which means the fate of every being has already taken place(technically), no matter their actions it leads them to their fate, which is what i've been saying since.

honourhim:
What if God being a creator possesses the attribute to create both what he likes and what he hates- i.e. good and evil, positive and negative, strong and weak etc. as it appears to be?
And if we should be shocked at the above poser, then the next question willl be- who defines what God should posses and what he should not possess in order to be God? is it we the created? I mean do we have the right to say because Gof allowed so and so things he doesnt qualofy to be God?
Does God even want us to see him as one who will not allow evil on us because he loves us? If he wanted that he wouldnt have created any being that will bring evil into the world in the first place.

Exactly, from my understanding of the bible, this is how i see your God, one who does as he pleases(no offence).

honourhim:
And in line with his attributes to create good and evil, what if one of his attribute include creating a place of total punishment for beings who ends up in evil and a place of total comfort for beings who end up good?
These are some of the questions i do ponder in my hearts. Kindly share you opinion.

I am glad u are openminded, based on that, this life is just like an entertainment to Yahweh.

I really don't have any more opinion on Yahweh than the ones you already know, which is:
Since he is omni-potent\science, then fates have already been decided, and freewill is an illusion.

But hey, i don't believe in Yahweh

4kings:
Which means the fate of every being has already taken place(technically), no matter their actions it leads them to their fate, which is what i've been saying since.

Nope. like i said when we started this discussion, it is the world that is predestined to be a place of good and evil. Man is not predestined for good or for bad rather he is given the ability to choose which side of the divide to be..The redemption plan is there for those who may CHOOSE to be redeemed back to good(righteousness) from bad. Thats the point i ve been making

4kings:
Exactly, from my understanding of the bible, this is how i see your God, one who does as he pleases(no offence).

Yea, thats what is also contained in the scripture. And of course no one can create with the sole aim of pleasing what he will create. The very first interest that brings up the idea for you to create is not to please what you will create. So God's very first interest for creating us cannot be to please us first rather to please himself first, then us.

4kings:
I am glad u are openminded, based on that, this life is just like an entertainment to Yahweh.

Maybe or may not be. And if it is, then thats it. Mine is to always choose the good side(righteousness).

4kings:
I really don't have any more opinion on Yahweh than the ones you already know, which is:
Since he is omni-potent\science, then fates have already been decided, and freewill is an illusion.

Ok thats your opinion. My position is different.

4kings:
But hey, i don't believe in Yahweh

Yea you said it . Now tell me about this your God.

honourhim:
Nope. like i said when we started this discussion, it is the world that is predestined to be a place of good and evil. Man is not predestined for good or for bad rather he is given the ability to choose which side of the divide to be..The redemption plan is there for those who may CHOOSE to be redeemed back to good(righteousness) from bad. Thats the point i ve been making




Yea, thats what is also contained in the scripture. And of course no one can create with the sole aim of pleasing what he will create. The very first interest that brings up the idea for you to create is not to please what you will create. So God's very first interest for creating us cannot be to please us first rather to please himself first, then us.



Maybe or may not be. And if it is, then thats it. Mine is to always choose the good side(righteousness).



Ok thats your opinion. My position is different.



Yea you said it . Now tell me about this your God.

Your words keep drifting here and there, just say you don't know

Its not by force to know, even your bible said it that there are some info you won't know and he's kept away from you (can't remember the verse but was quoted by a coworker when I asked certain questions)

hopefulLandlord:
Your words keep drifting here and there,

I see. Because i am not saying what you want to hear. Abeg park well.

hopefulLandlord:
Its not by force to know, even your bible said it that there are some info you won't know and he's kept away from you (can't remember the verse but was quoted by a coworker when I asked certain questions)

And did the bible mention those info that i wont know? And who claims that he knows all?
Your coworker has his own understanding of biblical matters and i have mine.

honourhim:
I see. Because i am not saying what you want to hear. Abeg park well.





And did the bible mention those info that i wont know? And who claims that he knows all?
Your coworker has his own understanding of biblical matters and i have mine.

You act as though you know it all, you explain everything in the way you "think" and try to present that as "knowledge" if you can't see the problem in that, more power to you,

read through your posts so far, that's why this discussion is getting longer while going nowhere in particular

I can't remember the verse exactly but it's in the old testament, he quoted it and I opened the bible to read it and it was exactly the way he said, I remember that vividly because it was also a discussion similar to what you're having right now

He admitted his ignorance about things like predestination and the belief in "fatality" (read the meaning if you only know one definition of fatality)