₦airaland Forum

Shut up there!!!!!! What is wrong if DSS carried out investigations. In addition, there are not imprisoned but on investigation.

vengertime:
[size=20pt]Buhari have destroyed this country completely. E remain make him sale am give us our own share[/size]

omohayek:
"Separation of powers" is a well-defined constitutional concept - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers - and the point is to prevent governments from degenerating into tyrannies. And yes, it does mean that one arm of government can't simply decide that it has the responsibility to unilaterally purge another, otherwise a slide into dictatorship would be almost inevitable.

Interesting but the word "purge" is rather emotive. What does it mean.
Again you say separation is a "constitutional" concept and then quote wikipedia. Which constitution is wikipedia based on? It is a political concept to my mind and not a constitutional one. Otherwise one would need specifically ,in this case, to be referencing the NIGERIAN constitution.

Investigation and prosecution of individuals is an executive prerogative. The decision to is just as potent and open to bias as the decision not to investigate and prosecute specific individuals and to that extent no democracy run by humans can be perfect but in general the executive has the power to arrest and prosecute every person whoever they may be as long as they do not have explicit immunity.
Of course there may be procedural allowances for judges ,senior legislators ,military personnel and such like but if they have no immunity they can all be arrested and charged.
No one is denying such powers are open to abuse but then a mature democracy ought to learn and adjust. The job of governance is never done completely.
We recall the failure to prosecute Hilary Clinton recently well some may consider that a "tyranny" according to your reasoning

sanpipita:
Hence the problem, how do you arrest a judge in Gestapo style ignoring procedures, it's wrong and won't stand anywhere in the world, Nigerians should speak up, we have a tryant as president, even Abacha and IBB never tampered with the judiciary despite their repressive actions.

/
Abacha and IBB? Really?
Those two figured out that there are many ways to skin a cat.
Intimidation, promotions and bribery are valid ways of tampering with the judiciary. They are equally as bad as arrest depending on your moral pedigree.
\

kel5000:
zombie,doing what u know best

Just an honest question. Am not taking sides. So if the police man catches a Yoruba man for armed robbery, he must look for an Igbo man to arrest to balance it out? Does this make sense to you

The judiciary is an idependent arm of govt. according to the constitution, if a judge errs, only the NJC can sanction the judge in the first instance. After he has been sacked, the police can take up the investigation and prosecute him.. DSS commando raid of judges' homes before a NJC investigation is Wrong and an act of impunity. Greetings to the descesdants of Afonja and abobaku....

omohayek:
Are you sure about that? I suggest you read sections 157 and 158 of the actual document - http://www.nigeria-law.org/ConstitutionOfTheFederalRepublicOfNigeria.htm#EstablishmentOfCertainFederalExecBodies

With respect if I have not read it I have read it a 100 times.

Prosecution for a personal criminal matter has nothing to do with removing a judge from office .They are parallel matters. You seem to have a comprehension problem
That you read and cannot interpret what you read.Hmm

kel5000:
zombie,doing what u know best

Just an honest question. Not taking sides, so if a police man catches a Yoruba man for armed robbery he then must look for an Igbo man to arrest to balance it out?

Realman87:
The judiciary is an idependent arm of govt. according to the constitution, if a judge errs, only the NJC can sanction the judge in the first instance. After he has been sacked, the police can take up the investigation and prosecute him.. DSS commando raid of judges' homes before a NJC investigation is Wrong and an act of impunity. Greetings to the descesdants of Afonja and abobaku....

This is not true at all.You really have no idea what you are talking about.
Is the senate not independent? Why is Saraki prosecuted?

The separation applies to the occupancy of his judicial office not his arrest and prosecution for criminal matters

omohayek:
Here I have to strongly disagree. To compare Obasanjo or any of his successors with IBB and Abacha is to do the democrats a huge disservice: I lived through Decree 4 (when Buhari jailed Ekwueme, Awolowo and many others on zero evidence), the murder of Dele Giwa and the execution of Ken Saro-Wiwa, and nothing since 1999 has compared with the terror of those days.

Nigeria democracy today is far from perfect - in particular, I agree that the brutal suppression of MASSOB and IPOB is a disgrace to freedom of speech and association - but if you think modern technology is what allows for loud criticism of leaders, take a look at Xi Jinping's China, Putin's Russia, or Turkey since Erdogan began his recent purge.

/
You seem to forget one important factor. Nigerian leaders are intellectually bankrupt and are bereft of imaginative ideas or critical thinking abilities to effectively suppress any technological incursions into their shenanigans. Heck! They couldn't even shut IPOB radio down. I believe you are aware that artificial intelligence is alien to Nigeria leaders.

/

The onslaught on the judges are condemned.

Wadeoye:
I disagree with you... Judiciary doesn't have absolute power and they are not operating in their own world or a separate constitution. They can be arrested and prosecuted even without any NJC investigation.

The issue is, they still have to be taken to court for prosecution where they will have the opportunity like any other accused persons to defend themselves.

Our Judiciary has no absolute power, but you can't arrest them unilaterally without orders, its like arresting a sitting President without any procedure, anything not through the NJC orders is an impunity simple.

Even in the US that we copy judges are arrested

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Tarpley_Camp_Jr.#Arrest_and_conviction
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Fuller#Battery.2C_investigation.2C_resignation_and_possible_impeachment
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/05/29/federal-judge-arrested-battery-resign/28187213/

InvertedHammer:
/
Abacha and IBB? Really?
Those two figured out that there are many ways to skin a cat.
Intimidation, promotions and bribery are valid ways of tampering with the judiciary. They are equally as bad as arrest depending on your moral pedigree.
\

They never acted the way in Gestapo style, that's my point.

omonnakoda:
Interesting but the word "purge" is rather emotive. What does it mean.
Again you say separation is a "constitutional" concept and then quote wikipedia. Which constitution is wikipedia based on? It is a political concept to my mind and not a constitutional one. Otherwise one would need specifically ,in this case, to be referencing the NIGERIAN constitution.

I quote Wikipedia because the concept is a well-defined one in political philosophy, and something anyone thinking about constitutional law would understand, no matter what country they're from. In any case, if you think it's somehow alien to the Nigerian constitution, you really ought to look at the document yourself - http://www.nigeria-law.org/ConstitutionOfTheFederalRepublicOfNigeria.htm.

Investigation and prosecution of individuals is an executive prerogative.

Section 157 and 158 of the Nigerian constitution make quite clear that the treatment of the average man on the street is different from what holds for judges, NASS members and the like. This is so for very good reasons grounded in that theory of separation of powers you (wrongly) think does not pertain to Nigeria.

The decision to is just as potent as the decision not to investigate and prosecute specific individuals and to that extent no democracy run by humans can be perfect but in general the executive has the power to arrest and prosecute every person whoever they may be as long as they do not have explicit immunity.
Of course there may be procedural allowances for judges ,senior legislators ,military personnel and such like but if they have no immunity they can all be arrested and charged.

Again, I suggest you see the details of the actual 1999 constitution for yourself: what Buhari is doing through the DSS is in blatant contradiction of said document.

No one is denying such powers are open to abuse but then a mature democracy ought to learn and adjust. The job of governance is never done completely.

If you bother to look into America's constitutional law and history, you'd realize that the way these things are dealt with in mature democracies is by respecting constitutional norms and judicial independence, even when said norms go strongly against the desires of the majority as well as the executive. The "Dredd Scott" decision of 1857 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott_v._Sandford) was despised by the abolitionist majority, but the American government didn't simply do an end-run around it, even though there was clear evidence of executive independence by Andrew Johnson, and a conflict of interest existed for many of the judges: instead the 14th and 15th amendments were passed after the Civil War, in proper constitutional fashion. The "Loving v. Virginia" decision of 1967 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia) was detested by the white majority, especially in the south, but nobody thought it justification for summarily arresting judges or expelling them from the Supreme Court. Republicans still haven't accepted "Roe v. Wade" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade), but they have been consistent in fighting the ruling through purely legal and constitutional means.

We recall the failure to prosecute Hilary Clinton recently well some may consider that a "tyranny" according to your reasoning

All this statement reveals is that you don't have a good grasp of what the whole email controversy was about. Nobody other than Trump and a few right-wing lunatics have accused Hillary Clinton of breaking any laws. Being acquitted of crimes by the FBI hardly constitutes "tyranny" by any reasonable definition.

omonnakoda:
Even in the US that we copy judges are arrested

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Tarpley_Camp_Jr.#Arrest_and_conviction
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Fuller#Battery.2C_investigation.2C_resignation_and_possible_impeachment
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/05/29/federal-judge-arrested-battery-resign/28187213/

Stop misinforming ppl Judges are not arrested unilaterally...

omonnakoda:
Even in the US that we copy judges are arrested

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Tarpley_Camp_Jr.#Arrest_and_conviction
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Fuller#Battery.2C_investigation.2C_resignation_and_possible_impeachment
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/05/29/federal-judge-arrested-battery-resign/28187213/

You'll note in the second link you provide that the punishment Mark Fuller was facing was impeachment, which is carried out by Congress rather than the executive; in addition, a linked CNN article makes clear that he was put in a local Atlanta jail, not a federal prison under the control of the national executive - http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/11/justice/georgia-federal-judge-jailed/index.html.

In any case, as you yourself have stated, the Nigerian constitution is not identical to the American one, and Nigeria's constitution is clear that the National Judicial Council is the party responsible for disciplining its members, not Buhari via the DSS.

omohayek:
I quote Wikipedia because the concept is a well-defined one in political philosophy, and something anyone thinking about constitutional law would understand, no matter what country they're from. In any case, if you think it's somehow alien to the Nigerian constitution, you really ought to look at the document yourself - http://www.nigeria-law.org/ConstitutionOfTheFederalRepublicOfNigeria.htm.


Section 157 and 158 of the Nigerian constitution make quite clear that the treatment of the average man on the street is different from what holds for judges, NASS members and the like. This is so for very good reasons grounded in that theory of separation of powers you (wrongly) think does not pertain to Nigeria.


Again, I suggest you see the details of the actual 1999 constitution for yourself: what Buhari is doing through the DSS is in blatant contradiction of said document.


If you bother to look into America's constitutional law and history, you'd realize that the way these things are dealt with in mature democracies is by respecting constitutional norms and judicial independence, even when said norms go strongly against the desires of the majority as well as the executive. The "Dredd Scott" decision of 1857 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott_v._Sandford) was despised by the abolitionist majority, but the American government didn't simply do an end-run around it, even though there was clear evidence of executive independence by Andrew Johnson, and a conflict of interest existed for many of the judges: instead the 14th and 15th amendments were passed after the Civil War, in proper constitutional fashion. The "Loving v. Virginia" decision of 1967 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia) was detested by the white majority, especially in the south, but nobody thought it justification for summarily arresting judges or expelling them from the Supreme Court. Republicans still haven't accepted "Roe v. Wade" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade), but they have been consistent in fighting the ruling through purely legal and constitutional means.


All this statement reveals is that you don't have a good grasp of what the whole email controversy was about. Nobody other than Trump and a few right-wing lunatics have accused Hillary Clinton of breaking any laws. Being acquitted of crimes by the FBI hardly constitutes "tyranny" by any reasonable definition.

You tend to use emotive words,maybe that is your style. What is summary arrest ? How is that different from non-summary arrest?

Those who want Hilary prosecuted are "LUNATICS" are you a psychiatrist? They just have a different opinion. The point I was making any way was that there is executive discretion and when it is exercised one way or another there will always be accusation of bias as in a SUMMARY failure to prosecute

Section 157 and 158 are very specifically about the procedure for removal from office of the affected individuals just as there are provisions for the removal of a president and governor. In the latter cases if those provisions were intended to be interpreted as immunity from arrest and prosecution there would be no additional specific provisions specifying immunity.
The truth is ONLY THOSE SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED in the constitution are immune from arrest and prosecution. NO ONE ELSE

We copy the US System and there are numerous examples of judges being arrested and charged by FBI and police. This did not lead to their automatic removal from office and so we can deduce they are parallel processes. I have already given examples of such arrests. Just Google US judge arrested or Judge arrested for any country of interest.

gimbayaro:
Buhari is looking for trouble,he will die same way col. Gadaffi & sadam Hussain died. He has turn this country into something else. No more respect for the Judiciary and the legislature, he do as he wishes .... i have lost hope in my country....Am smelling big war coming

. Don't even go there because you don't what you are talking about. You said WAR? ........

omonnakoda:
With respect if I have not read it I have read it a 100 times.

Prosecution for a personal criminal matter has nothing to do with removing a judge from office .They are parallel matters. You seem to have a comprehension problem
That you read and cannot interpret what you read.Hmm

You claim that Hillary Clinton's not being arrested or charged for her emails is proof of "tyranny", and then accuse me of a "comprehension problem"? That's rich!

As you insist that this is a personal criminal matter, I'm sure you can tell me where they obtained the arrest warrants for these raids from?

Buhari is trying to alter the make up of the Supreme Court and does not even have the patience to wait for the existing judges to retire

This is more and more attempt at power grab

omohayek:
You'll note in the second link you provide that the punishment Mark Fuller was facing was impeachment, which is carried out by Congress rather than the executive; in addition, a linked CNN article makes clear that he was put in a local Atlanta jail, not a federal prison under the control of the national executive - http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/11/justice/georgia-federal-judge-jailed/index.html.

In any case, as you yourself have stated, the Nigerian constitution is not identical to the American one, and Nigeria's constitution is clear that the National Judicial Council is the party responsible for disciplining its members, not Buhari via the DSS.

Disciplining is not related to criminal matters but for matters relating to fitness for office .The only available sanctions relate to occupation of office whether by way of suspension demotion or removal. It has nothing to do with CRIME. The same applies to doctors and so on

The judges and Nigeria Judicial Commission alone can tell us what they've done. Sometimes the arrests are carried out impromptu when the security agents realize that a leak has occured. In order to thwart the justices' use of injunctions etc to prevent their arrests, the make such moves at such wee hours.

sanpipita:
Stop misinforming ppl Judges are not arrested unilaterally...

They are arrested multilaterally??

hucienda:
This doesn't look good ...

Buhari is dividing an already divided country the more.

We are privileged to some salient information. Those jurges have enough evidence against them . You will know the truth in few weeks to come when they start to do plea bargaining. Do not allow people to confused you, you will know the facts.

Pidggin:
Did you notice that there is no northerner amongst them and these are the same people that have previously ruled against FG/APC? I know you are entitled to your opinion but right now your comment is very annoying and insensitive

justice Ladan tsamiya is from enugu abi...mumu

omohayek:
You claim that Hillary Clinton's not being arrested or charged for her emails is proof of "tyranny", and then accuse me of a "comprehension problem"? That's rich!

As you insist that this is a personal criminal matter, I'm sure you can tell me where they obtained the arrest warrants for these raids from?

I did not claim it is proof of anything.Read and comprehend,

Arrest warrant? That is not mandatory in our law. They have a duty to charge them to court within a set time which is not so long so let us wait for that time to lapse.

omonnakoda:
You tend to use emotive words,maybe that is your style. What is summary arrest ? How is that different from non-summary arrest?

And here you prove that you are indeed the one with the comprehension problem. You don't know the difference between arresting people after properly collecting evidence and submitting it to the pertinent authorities, and simply raiding them on the say-so of a president who has no constitutional authority to order such a raid? You can't see anything "summary" about accusing people of crimes simply because they have cash at home, as if that in itself were illegal?

Those who want Hilary prosecuted are "LUNATICS" are you a psychiatrist?

You think one needs to be a psychiatrist to know insane opinions when one hears them? You hear someone say Hillary Clinton "literally created ISIS" and it screams anything other than "crazy" to you?

They just have a different opinion.

And some opinions are very clearly insane. If I say that you are being controlled by grey lizard-men from Zeta-Epsilon, I don't expect you to take me seriously, and the same goes for the Trump-bots with their conspiracy theories about Obama's birth-certificate, or Hillary, Benghazi and her emails. Would you really sit down and listen to someone who started ranting to you about how "the Jews" are supposedly conspiring to use the blood of Christian children to make matzoh bread? Part of being a thinking adult is knowing which opinions not to waste any time on.

The point I was making any way was that there is executive discretion and when it is exercised one way or another there will always be accusation of bias as in a SUMMARY failure to prosecute

The point here is that I don't believe that the executive has any discretion here, as I don't believe it has any authority to carry out such a raid.

Section 157 and 158 are very specifically about the procedure for removal from office of the affected individuals just as there are provisions for the removal of a president and governor. In the latter cases if those provisions were intended to be interpreted as immunity from arrest and prosecution there would be no additional specific provisions specifying immunity.
The truth is ONLY THOSE SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED in the constitution are immune from arrest and prosecution. NO ONE ELSE

We copy the US System and there are numerous examples of judges being arrested and charged by FBI and police. This did not lead to their automatic removal from office and so we can deduce they are parallel processes. I have already given examples of such arrests. Just Google US judge arrested or Judge arrested for any country of interest.[/quote]I've already responded to your previous comments about Mark Fuller, and I won't repeat myself here.

omohayek:
You'll note in the second link you provide that the punishment Mark Fuller was facing was impeachment, which is carried out by Congress rather than the executive; in addition, a linked CNN article makes clear that he was put in a local Atlanta jail, not a federal prison under the control of the national executive - http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/11/justice/georgia-federal-judge-jailed/index.html.

These are just desperate and meaningless diversionary words
The fact is he was arrested ,judges CAN be arrested and IT HAS NOTHING to do with the issue of separation of powers. The executive does not make bail decisions,does not make verdicts or remove judges even IF convicted. Its job is to arrest and charge and it has that power over EVERYBODY that is not immune .Period!!

omonnakoda:
These are just desperate and meaningless diversionary words

Why, because you say so? I suggest you provide an actual argument for why you disagree, rather than simply assertion I'm wrong.

The fact is he was arrested ,judges CAN be arrested and IT HAS NOTHING to do with the issue of separation of powers. The executive does not make bail decisions,does not make verdicts or remove judges even IF convicted. Its job is to arrest and charge and it has that power over EVERYBODY that is not immune .Period!!

Where is your constitutional evidence for this? Failing that, in what bit of Nigeria's case law do you ground such an opinion?

omohayek:
And here you prove that you are indeed the one with the comprehension problem. You don't know the difference between arresting people after properly collecting evidence and submitting it to the pertinent authorities, and simply raiding them on the say-so of a president who has no constitutional authority to order such a raid? You can't see anything "summary" about accusing people of crimes simply because they have cash at home, as if that in itself were illegal?


You think one needs to be a psychiatrist to know insane opinions when one hears them? You hear someone say Hillary Clinton "literally created ISIS" and it screams anything other than "crazy" to you?


And some opinions are very clearly insane. If I say that you are being controlled by grey lizard-men from Zeta-Epsilon, I don't expect you to take me seriously, and the same goes for the Trump-bots with their conspiracy theories about Obama's birth-certificate, or Hillary, Benghazi and her emails. Would you really sit down and listen to someone who started ranting to you about how "the Jews" are supposedly conspiring to use the blood of Christian children to make matzoh bread? Part of being a thinking adult is knowing which opinions not to waste any time on.


The point here is that I don't believe that the executive has any discretion here, as I don't believe it has any authority to carry out such a raid.

Section 157 and 158 are very specifically about the procedure for removal from office of the affected individuals just as there are provisions for the removal of a president and governor. In the latter cases if those provisions were intended to be interpreted as immunity from arrest and prosecution there would be no additional specific provisions specifying immunity.
The truth is ONLY THOSE SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED in the constitution are immune from arrest and prosecution. NO ONE ELSE

We copy the US System and there are numerous examples of judges being arrested and charged by FBI and police. This did not lead to their automatic removal from office and so we can deduce they are parallel processes. I have already given examples of such arrests. Just Google US judge arrested or Judge arrested for any country of interest.
I've already responded to your previous comments about Mark Fuller, and I won't repeat myself here.

Your examples are irrelevant and childish.Not everyone who wants Hilary prosecuted made the remark about ISIS.Many of them are quite sane
Let us not go off a tangent and start talking about reptiles.

In our law people can be arrested for capricious reasons. I do not agree with it but so it is and so it is in virtually any country claiming to be a democracy. The only safeguard is following arrest they must be put in front of a judge within a set time. Again the executive has discretion to use this power in a way that may be considered tyrannical by some. That does not make them lunatics
This power of arrest is not only a federal power but even at state government level too.

doctokwus:
That Rivers state supreme court judgement was one of the lowest the supreme court had gone and it gave rise to the murdering field that state has turned to.
It was one of the points I started doubting PMB's anticorruption fight.Despite Wike seen and admitting visiting the CJN during the election trial and SR expose on the role okoro played,that d govt did nothing was the height of abetting of corruption in the judiciary.Other judges then simply sold their judgements to the highest political bidder wen they saw the govt was no different from others.
But why is justice Odili not amongst those arrested despite the confirmed role Wike himself admitted her husband played during the SC verdict ?Unless d govt is building a watertight case against her.

And why is justice okon Abang not among them

omohayek:
Why, because you say so? I suggest you provide an actual argument for why you disagree, rather than simply assertion I'm wrong.


Where is your constitutional evidence for this? Failing that, in what bit of Nigeria's case law do you ground such an opinion?

The constitution is clear about arrest and prosecution for ALL Nigerians. YOU are claiming that it is different for judges
It is incumbent on YOU to prove that not me to disprove.ei incumbit probatio qui dicit non qui negat