My coursemate attended a wedding today and he was the best man. The Alfa asked the bride to kneel for her husband and she refused. Alfa said he wouldn't proceed until she succumb

Unfortunately they couldn't do the nikkah because of that silly reason.

What do we expect when we abandon the sunnah and practice culture

That is serious.

I admire here for standing firm for what is right. No ignorant alfa should be allowed to hold them to ransom over the nikkah.

Is "alfa" even needed for a nikkah? Which one is kneel down when we are not Christians

that is very silly to hear, weting concern greeting in nikkah

which area in Ilorin was the event happened ?

which area in Ilorin was the event happen?

Subhannallah...i luv what d sister did...are those alfas needed in the first place, no, but the sister and d brother have to make their family understand what islam says in such situation...those alfas are a disgrace if it really happened that way

I am living at ilorin, poster pls, where particularly was the event happend.

Sarcasm01:
I am living at ilorin, poster pls, where particularly was the event happend.

Will ask my friend and inform you. But if I may ask why do you want to know the location

Bukiminaj:


Will ask my friend and inform you. But if I may ask why do you want to know the location

I just want to knw that alfa,

Sarcasm01:
I just want to knw that alfa,

Unfortunately he refused to disclose the location. He said many people are asking him that. A lot of people are angry about that incident.

I pray that Allah in his infinite mercies reward this sister abundantly in this world with a pious spouce and in the hereafter with jannah... She stood by the will of Allah even in such a difficult situation

and there was nobody on seat to tell the Alfa to park well that his presence wasn't really necessary in the first place?

dragnet:
and there was nobody on seat to tell the Alfa to park well that his presence wasn't really necessary in the first place?

You know how we yorubas are so obsessed with kneeling. No one saw any fault in what the alfa did

Some Alfas and thier sexism, why not tell the husband to kneel down as well.

Even in their lectures they are always blaming women/wives for marital misunderstanding in marriages.

My coursemate attended a wedding today and he was the best man. The Alfa asked the bride to kneel for her husband and she refused. Alfa said he wouldn't proceed until she succumb

Unfortunately they couldn't do the nikkah because of that silly reason.

What do we expect when we abandon the sunnah and practice culture

Truly, presence of Alfa was not mandatory but necessary because it is now custom in that part of the world and even many other parts of the world. In the West, Imams condict Nikkah very well. So there is nothing wrong having Alfa's presence. The only thing I abhor in this situation is (if this story is true), Alfa should have shunned the bride and allow the nikkah to move on.

As for bride's action, she sends wrong attitude to her husband especially if her husband doesn't share same ideology with her. She sends wrong message of a "rude" wife. We know too well in Yoruba land it is their custom just like any customs around the world. Alfa's request was a form of respect towards her husband not worship. It is also in Arab custom to kneel on one's kneels for various reasons as long as it does not contradict Shari'a (as in intention). For instance, the western style whereby groom proposes to bride "will you marry me", with groom's kneel on the ground This is their christian custom and may be frown upon by Sharia and should be avoided.


Kneeling on one’s knees was the custom of the Arabs in case of fear, or when honoring something, or as a way of being polite with or showing humility to the one who is kneeled to. See highlighted parts was exactly what Alfa was requesting from her to her husband. Where are you brothers getting your "sunnah" from?. Seems to me you dont understand stuff. I am sure by now, people would be talking behind her back how bad she was on her wedding day. That's her big day and she should have done everything to safe it. What a shame in the name of her low thinking faculty "sunnah". I dont see wisdom in what she did.


Ibn ‘Attiyah said about kneeling: [size=15pt]“(It is) the posing of a person who is blameful, fearful and full of veneration. A Hadeeth reads: "Then ‘Umar kneeled on his knees.[/size]"”[End of quote]


Kneeling on one’s knees was mentioned in several Ahaadeeth, one of which was reported in Imaam Ahmad's Musnad from Abu 'Umar Ziyaad ibn Muslim from Abu Al-Ash‘ath As-San‘aani, who said: [size=17pt]“Yazeed ibn Mu‘aawiyah sent us to Ibn Az-Zubayr, and when I came to Madeenah, I entered upon so and so – Ziyaad forgot his name – and said: "The people have done what they have done, so what should be done? He said: "My beloved Abul-Qaasim (i.e. the Prophet صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم) advised me: 'If you survive until you see some of this tribulation, then go to the Mount Uhud and break your sword, then sit in your house, and if someone comes inside your house, go to your bedroom, and if he enters your bedroom, kneel on your knees and tell him, Bear my sin and your sin so you will be among the companions of the Fire, and that is the recompense of wrongdoers.”[/size] [Al-Arnaa’oot declared it Hasan (good)]


This narration ^ indicates it is permissible at least in this context.


Also, some Companions knelt on their knees in the presence of the Prophetصلی اللہ علیہ وسلم . Al-Bukhaari reported in an account of a dispute between Abu Bakr and ‘Umar may Allaah be pleased with them: “So the face of the Prophet , became red, and [size=17pt]Abu Bakr grew fearful and knelt on his knees[/size] and said: "O Messenger of Allaah, I swear by Allaah, I was more wrong," repeating this twice.”


Moreover, kneeling on one’s knees was the way of some of the Salaf (righteous predecessors) when sitting in the presence of scholars. It is mentioned in the Hilyat Al-Awliyaa’ that Sufyaan said: [size=18pt]“When he went to a scholar, ‘Amr Al-Mulaa’i would kneel on his knees and say, Teach me some of what Allaah has taught you, to implement the verse in which Allaah says (what means): {…on [the condition] that you teach me from what you have been taught of sound judgment?"}[/size] [Quran 18:66]”


All this is evidence that it is permissible to kneel on one’s knees and that it is not forbidden in principle. The act of kneeling on both knees or on one knee in front of a person, there is nothing wrong with it if it is not done to imitate non-Muslims, and if it does not involve anything else that contravenes the Sharee'ah.


http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=291694

Empiree:
Truly, presence of Alfa was not mandatory but necessary because it is now custom in that part of the world and even many other parts of the world. In the West, Imams condict Nikkah very well. So there is nothing wrong having Alfa's presence. The only thing I abhor in this situation is (if this story is true), Alfa should have shunned the bride and allow the nikkah to move on.

As for bride's action, she sends wrong attitude to her husband especially if her husband doesn't share same ideology with her. She sends wrong message of a "rude" wife. We know too well in Yoruba land it is their custom just like any customs around the world. Alfa's request was a form of respect towards her husband not worship. It is also in Arab custom to kneel on one's kneels for various reasons as long as it does not contradict Shari'a (as in intention). For instance, the western style whereby groom proposes to bride "will you marry me", with groom's kneel on the ground This is their christian custom and may be frown upon by Sharia and should be avoided.

Empiree you are here with you confusion again uhn? why hide under clear proof and ignore clear proof? the prophet clearly said in more than one occasion that if it were permissible for one to kneel for another, he would have ordered wives to kneel for their husbands, isn't this statement clear enough? why go to ambiguous hadeeth?

Kneeling on one’s knees was the custom of the Arabs in case of fear, or when honoring something, or as a way of being polite with or showing humility to the one who is kneeled to. See highlighted parts was exactly what Alfa was requesting from her to her husband. Where are you brothers getting your "sunnah" from?. Seems to me you dont understand stuff. I am sure by now, people would be talking behind her back how bad she was on her wedding day. That's her big day and she should have done everything to safe it. What a shame in the name of her low thinking faculty "sunnah". I dont see wisdom in what she did.

So if IT WAS(notice the past tense) the custom of the Arabs, we should leave a clear hadeeth of the prophet that prohibited it and follow some customs? yeah to kneel down is not bad(in principle) but it shouldnt be done for veneration, let me give you a scenerio, someone comes to give man A a news that they are coming to Man A's house to kill him, out of fear he falls on his knees and is like "oh! they are coming to kill me" and such similar cases is what i mean by "principle"

Ibn ‘Attiyah said about kneeling: [size=15pt]“(It is) the posing of a person who is blameful, fearful and full of veneration. A Hadeeth reads: "Then ‘Umar kneeled on his knees.[/size]"”[End of quote]

we need the full context of the alleged hadeeth.

Kneeling on one’s knees was mentioned in several Ahaadeeth, one of which was reported in Imaam Ahmad's Musnad from Abu 'Umar Ziyaad ibn Muslim from Abu Al-Ash‘ath As-San‘aani, who said: [size=17pt]“Yazeed ibn Mu‘aawiyah sent us to Ibn Az-Zubayr, and when I came to Madeenah, I entered upon so and so – Ziyaad forgot his name – and said: "The people have done what they have done, so what should be done? He said: "My beloved Abul-Qaasim (i.e. the Prophet صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم) advised me: 'If you survive until you see some of this tribulation, then go to the Mount Uhud and break your sword, then sit in your house, and if someone comes inside your house, go to your bedroom, and if he enters your bedroom, kneel on your knees and tell him, Bear my sin and your sin so you will be among the companions of the Fire, and that is the recompense of wrongdoers.”[/size] [Al-Arnaa’oot declared it Hasan (good)]


This narration ^ indicates it is permissible at least in this context.

This wasnt done for veneration.

Also, some Companions knelt on their knees in the presence of the Prophetصلی اللہ علیہ وسلم . Al-Bukhaari reported in an account of a dispute between Abu Bakr and ‘Umar may Allaah be pleased with them: “So the face of the Prophet , became red, and [size=17pt]Abu Bakr grew fearful and knelt on his knees[/size] and said: "O Messenger of Allaah, I swear by Allaah, I was more wrong," repeating this twice.”

This wasnt done for veneration either but out of fear that "ah! the prophet is angry what have we done"

Moreover, kneeling on one’s knees was the way of some of the Salaf (righteous predecessors) when sitting in the presence of scholars. It is mentioned in the Hilyat Al-Awliyaa’ that Sufyaan said: [size=18pt]“When he went to a scholar, ‘Amr Al-Mulaa’i would kneel on his knees and say, Teach me some of what Allaah has taught you, to implement the verse in which Allaah says (what means): {…on [the condition] that you teach me from what you have been taught of sound judgment?"}[/size] [Quran 18:66]”

kneeling down to receive a class is the same as veneration? kneeling down is not bad in principle, but it all surrounds the intention for that kneeling, if it is to venerate then its prohibited because the prophet said if it were permissible for one to kneel for another he would've asked wives to kneel for husbands....maybe i should give you one of the context where the prophet said the above, there was a day the prophet was with his companions, then another sahaba came to seek his assistance to help him calm his goats cuz they've been dusturbing him, on the Prophet's arrival the goats calmed down, knelt down. then the sahabas were like "ya rasulullaah goats without sense did that for you and we with sense don't? from today onward we will do the same" then the prophet said no, if it were permissible for one to kneel for another he would've asked wives to kneel for husbands, now this begs the question, why leave clear proof and hide under ambiguous proofs? ibn katheer said this is the acts of innovators, they hide under ambiguous proofs to proof their innovation, why don't you follow the one that cannot be misinterpreted?

All this is evidence that it is permissible to kneel on one’s knees and that it is not forbidden in principle. The act of kneeling on both knees or on one knee in front of a person, there is nothing wrong with it if it is not done to imitate non-Muslims, and if it does not involve anything else that contravenes the Sharee'ah.

Now i like this, if it is not done to imitate disbelievers, right? now this act of kneeling down at weddings, isnt it an imitation of the Yoruba disbelievers before the advent of Islam in to the Yoruba land?

even shaykh kamalideen(whom I'm sure you respect) condemned kneeling same goes for shaykh Adam ilory, with the statement "he who kneels for someone and the one that accept the kneeling of another will both be answerable to Allaah on the day of reckoning" isn't it clear?


stop trying to cause confusion.

lexiconkabir:


[size=2pt]Em.piree you are here with you confusion again uhn? why hide under clear proof and ignore clear proof? the prophet clearly said in more than one occasion that if it were permissible for one to kneel for another, he would have ordered wives to kneel for their husbands, isn't this statement clear enough? why go to ambiguous hadeeth?




So if IT WAS(notice the past tense) the custom of the Arabs, we should leave a clear hadeeth of the prophet that prohibited it and follow some customs? yeah to kneel down is not bad(in principle) but it shouldnt be done for veneration, let me give you a scenerio, someone comes to give man A a news that they are coming to Man A's house to kill him, out of fear he falls on his knees and is like "oh! they are coming to kill me" and such similar cases is what i mean by "principle"




we need the full context of the alleged hadeeth.




This wasnt done for veneration.




This wasnt done for veneration either but out of fear that "ah! the prophet is angry what have we done"




kneeling down to receive a class is the same as veneration? kneeling down is not bad in principle, but it all surrounds the intention for that kneeling, if it is to venerate then its prohibited because the prophet said if it were permissible for one to kneel for another he would've asked wives to kneel for husbands....maybe i should give you one of the context where the prophet said the above, there was a day the prophet was with his companions, then another sahaba came to seek his assistance to help him calm his goats cuz they've been dusturbing him, on the Prophet's arrival the goats calmed down, knelt down. then the sahabas were like "ya rasulullaah goats without sense did that for you and we with sense don't? from today onward we will do the same" then the prophet said no, if it were permissible for one to kneel for another he would've asked wives to kneel for husbands, now this begs the question, why leave clear proof and hide under ambiguous proofs? ibn katheer said this is the acts of innovators, they hide under ambiguous proofs to proof their innovation, why don't you follow the one that cannot be misinterpreted?




Now i like this, if it is not done to imitate disbelievers, right? now this act of kneeling down at weddings, isnt it an imitation of the Yoruba disbelievers before the advent of Islam in to the Yoruba land?

even shaykh kamalideen(whom I'm sure you respect) condemned kneeling same goes for shaykh Adam ilory, with the statement "he who kneels for someone and the one that accept the kneeling of another will both be answerable to Allaah on the day of reckoning" isn't it clear?


stop trying to cause confusion.[/size]

I am not trying to confuse anyone. It is okay if she chose not to kneel. But she sent wrong message to her husband. Is her kneeling here was meant to venerate her husband?. You may have to properly quote Sheikh Kamaldeen(ra) to see but i understand some of them do frown at it. Truly, it is not requirement but I am sure it was out of respect that Alfa asked for which means out of necessity. That necessity made Abu Bakr (RA) knelt down before the prophet(sallahAllah alaiy wasalam). Now she brought a shame on herself and it entered her record for life (that her wedding did not hold cus of this). Alfa's request was necessity and only took few minutes to do that. Why messed up her wedding bcus of this?. After all, if it was forbidden, Alfa carries the blame not her.

Also, in Yoruba culture, it is not their custom to embrace one another like this: (Alfa who conducts the wedding hugs and kisses the bride and other family do the same). This is not common in Yoruba but we see this in other culture in the Muslim world especially Arabs. You gonna take this from them also?. So in this context, I am not saying it is mandatory she kneels but I am saying it becomes necessary for her own good. Nikka was only one day and Allah does not call her to account for this. Why mess it up?. Does her kneeling invalidates nikkah?. Obviously, if her husband doesn't share same ideology with her, their marriage may eventually hit the rock base on this. A sheikh called Alaye also doesnt support kneeling. However, he said, ".........but if you are asked to kneel to greet someone out of neccesity, do it". This becomes necessity. Why cant she do the same and let nikkah move on?. Again, let me iterate that Alfa should have just let the wedding move forward since kneeling is not a requirement or she should have let nikka go on by obliging. Very simple.

I will like to hear what happens to the wedding now if she made it through. I hope they did not go their separate way already.

I found this 6 mins video of Sheikdom Adaby (ra). Yes, he doesnt support bowing as we do in Yoruba land. Matter of fact all 7 seven parts used to service Allah are not supposed to be used to service others. However, to be specific, he said " we are deceiving ourselves" in our greetings ways like i do ba le and ikunle. But he explained greeting as mentioned in Shari'a to stand and greet elders in a respectful manner not the way Western people do. That is the way you brothers preached. That's disrespectful. He said we'd better leave it bcus if you greet your father while standing you are inviting trouble unless he understands. Plus you still have to bend your head and not look directly at him when you greet contrary to the West. You brothers portray sunnah greetings Western manner. I watched them on Youtube the way the brother preached it. "never do ba le for anyone". That sounds rude.

It is easy for Arab to reject Yoruba way of greeting elder bcus it is simply not in their culture. Same applies, Yoruba also abhor kissing chicks like Arabs do.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VgfnY7V-bc

Finally, it gets complicated when another hadith doesnt forbids kissing feet. In order to do this, there is no way one is not gonna bow. So it all comes down to [size=15pt]niyah[/size]. In Yoruba land, we NEVER ever thought of worshiping elders when we greet them. May Allah make it easy for us but I am not gonna listen to non Yoruba to preach to me on this subject bcus they may never understand why we bow for elders.

Case close.

Confusing solutions everywhere

balash:
Confusing solutions everywhere

Yup. To me, i have no problem with it. In some Arab countries, they kiss their elder's feet especially mother. But in Yoruba land, we dont. Perhaps, we abhor it. Now, someone who bends to kiss elder's feet has already prostrated which means prostration for ibada is what is haram. Also, Arabs kiss one anther as a form of greeting. Whether male to male, female to female or groom's father kissing bride etc. This is "embrace". It is a common practice amongst Arabs and White people. But in Yoruba, this is rubbish. Perhaps modern guys and ladies may do that out of fashion but it is not in yoruba culture. Hadith however frown upon embracing your fellow muslims when you meet. So are the Arabs ready to give up kissing one another when they meet?.Kissing is embrace. They hold each other's shoulders and kiss both sides of the cheeks.

It is easy for Arabs to condemn bowing to elders as we do bcus it is simply not int their culture to do so. Therefore, they need to keep to theirs and we ours. In the time of Sheikh Adam (ra) when this topic came up, someone gave Sheikh Adam shock knuckle (Fist bump). Sheikh was like "you sick or something"

So Allah created us that way and none of us prostrate to elders to worship them. Prostration that is forbidden is forehead touching the ground. Forehead is not suppose to touch the ground for anybody except Allah. If you have time watch "PROSTRATION IN ISLAM" part 1 & 2 on my thread https://www.nairaland.com/2042359/shaykh-adam-abdullah-al-ilory/8#down. It is a debate.

To some brothers saying is Alfa necessary? Did he invite himself. Everyone of us including the party of the couple who invited him are aware that he will be the one to conduct that session of the event. So why the hypocritical and vain expression.

prodam:
To some brothers saying is Alfa necessary? Did he invite himself. Everyone of us including the party of the couple who invited him are aware that he will be the one to conduct that session of the event. So why the hypocritical and vain expression.

speak for yourself, you don't know everybody here personally.

again "alfa" is not necessary(and not needed) according to the shareeah, its not part of the criteria for a marriage to be valid.

lexiconkabir:


speak for yourself, you don't know everybody here personally.

again "alfa" is not necessary(and not needed) according to the shareeah, its not part of the criteria for a marriage to be valid.

That is not our headache here. Alfa is not necessary ,Ok, but this particular Alfa was already invited, that's what I am saying. So it is given that he's gonna moderate the session. The topic is not even centered on whether Alfa in Nikkah is necessary or not. The discussion is about Alfa asking the bride to kneel down in front of her husband which she refused.

If you say, Yes what the bride did was the right thing with your references, thats fine. But talking about necessity of Alfa is out of scope and signals something else. You will agree me that Nikkah Process is a broad topic on it's own.

Salam Alaykum

prodam:



That is not our headache here. Alfa is not necessary ,Ok, but this particular Alfa was already invited, that's what I am saying. So it is given that he's gonna moderate the session. The topic is not even centered on whether Alfa in Nikkah is necessary or not. The discussion is about Alfa asking the bride to kneel down in front of her husband which she refused.

If you say, Yes what the bride did was the right thing with your references, thats fine. But talking about necessity of Alfa is out of scope and signals something else. You will agree me that Nikkah Process is a broad topic on it's own.

Salam Alaykum

you know why we are saying he is not needed there in the first place? He has no right to stop the nikkah because she didnt kneel for her husband, kneeling down for husband is not part if nikkah rites, so if the Alfa wasnt there in the first place, the nikkah would've gone fine.

as for them inviting Alfa, we don't know what bordered around the invitation, perhaps the couple didn't go well with it, but out of wanting to pls the parents allowed it....this is an opinion.

wa alaykum salaam.

lexiconkabir:


speak for yourself, you don't know everybody here personally.

again "alfa" is not necessary(and not needed) according to the shareeah, its not part of the criteria for a marriage to be valid.

I think you missed his point. He did not invite himself. Thats very true. It is not necessary Shariah thing. It is a common norm. In the West, Imams conduct Nikkah. That's the same thing what Alfa did. Imams conduct nikkah all the time in the during which, in some cases, Imam hugs and kisses brides intimately. You will be surprised.

Empiree:
I think you missed his point. He did not invite himself. Thats very true. It is not necessary Shariah thing. It is a common norm. In the West, Imams conduct Nikkah. That's the same thing what Alfa did. Imams conduct nikkah all the time in the during which, in some cases, Imam hugs and kisses brides intimately. You will be surprised.

I don't still get his point for calling those that said Alfas are not needed hypocrites, i dont see the connection.

And i think you both still get my point, i say, for the nikkah to be valid, is the Alfa needed?

Empiree:
I think you missed his point. He did not invite himself. Thats very true. It is not necessary Shariah thing. It is a common norm. In the West, Imams conduct Nikkah. That's the same thing what Alfa did. Imams conduct nikkah all the time in the during which, in some cases, Imam hugs and kisses brides intimately. You will be surprised.

I personally don't feel that an act becoming a norm in a society should be the yardstick used to determine whether or not such act is proper or necessary.

AideeSheks:

I personally don't feel that an act becoming a norm in a society should be the yardstick used to determine whether or not such act is proper or necessary.

I don't think I said it's proper. It is very simple. They knew from the out start possibility of this happening. So why invite him? . That's the point. I didn't say the norm is right. Arabs have theirs that is neither in conflict with sharia not haram. Same we talking about here. If a practice is neutral it's irrelevant to try to involve Islam in it. Arabs kiss each other. Male to male etc. They also kiss elders feet. It's their norm. But is it Islamic?.

But we don't do these in yorubaland. So it's irrelevant to make big deal out of this when they knew too well this could happen. I have said before that alfa should not have stopped nikkah cus of this. It's not requirement. Why are you missing this?.

What if groom is asked to kiss her husband''s feet, would you have problem with that as well?. This including kneeling are neutral.

lexiconkabir:


And i think you both still get my point, i say, for the nikkah to be valid, is the Alfa needed?

Obviously this appears to be traditional nikkah. If Alfa was not needed who would conduct the nikkah?. whoever would conduct the nikkah had to be neutral right? . Same thing if this was court or church wedding, pastor or judge had to be there correct? . So if Alfa was not called who would have conducted the nikkah? . Definitely not from the parties right? .

In Yorubaland and everywhere other places, people love to have nikkah conducted by a figure. This is why they call Alfas. In the west, they call imams or Shaykh. It's a norm that islam does not forbids. Islam recognizes even nikkah of non Muslims.

Some even said (with conditions ), bride and groom may conduct nikkah themselves. This isn't going down well in Yorubaland. I support former which calls for witnesses.

Again, the sister knew too well in that environment possibility of being asked to kneel. She should opt for court wedding instead. When a culture such as this is interjected in nikkah but it's neutral there is no reason to make big noise over it. I hope her husband supports her decision. .....otherwise, that may be the end of their relationship.