₦airaland Forum

BraniacX:
You took the analysis out of my mouth! Kudos!

The phalanx formation of the helenic city states when co-opted to his macedonian calvary was what gave alexander of macedon such a great empire in such a short period even with such a small army! As simply put, everywhere he went, the old world and their armies weren't prepared for being pressed down at stake ends with countless numbers of long pointed spikes, see the battle of winterfell, when the bolton army finally shoehorsed jon snows with broad shields and pikes leaving even wun wun helpless and understand the helplessness of old world armies

The above bolded is why 100 Arthur Dayne's may not be able to beat 100 Unsullied that easily... it will come down to the terrain of the battle. Open field; the Daynes finish the fight in less than an hour. Closed in terrain with flanks fully covered; it will probably take the whole day, but the Unsullied will take the day.

kay9:
Did we ever really see pre-swordhand-loss Jaime fight in the show? His brief tussle with Ned Stark isn't really a good yardstick to judge him by, cos so far the evidence indicates that Oberyn will poke him full of holes, swordhand or no. But going by his reputation in the books, the youngest member of the Kingsguard ever, born to wield a sword, mmmm... i think he'd beat the Viper.

I disagree with you, unless you'll say that loras tyrell could beat oberyn martell because yes that is how jamie lannister saw loras tyrell! A younger, more arrogant and likewise supremely confident version of himself and as well, a deadly effective fighter and prime kingsguard material, but i don't know if you'll agree with me, for all that he still isn't oberyn martell whose reputation (evil of course ) is well known and some worse part of it mere whispers and yes, he's too smart a fighter and well versed in multiple fighting styles from first hand experience in mereen's fighting pits not to know which fighting styles easily defeats an opponent in a duel! There are few fighters of that era who i would have pitched against oberyn martell and expect them to stand a chance and these are all smart fighters not proud, cocky or arrogant nor fierce and maybe my list will suprise you but they are bronn, daario naharis, quorhin halfhand, and what's the name of that thief and slit throat sent to the nightswatch killed by jon at crasters lodge? See i did not add jon snow, khaal drogo, barristen selmy, brienne of tarth and others who fight with ferocity of conviction? Only those who are personally aware of their surrounding asides their opponent and always looking for every advantage they can find and that is not your typical westerosi knight, maybe a braavosi water dancing master but not a westerosi knight and not a leap and strike dotharaki warlord!
But i'm confident samurai arthur dayne would have ownes him

kay9:
Bronn would beat the Mountain; Daario would beat the Mountain; Jon Snow would beat the Mountain; even the Hound would beat him. Gregor Clegane wielded his sword like a cutlass; he was sheer strength and power and very little skill. Oberyn could have ended that fight any time he chose, but instead he got cocky and mouthy.

However if you are talking of Sir Robert Strong aka Zombie Clegane... i don't know if anybody can beat that one.

Sir gregor clegane

World war Z version
Lol

SIRcumalot:
Jon snow ? don't make me laff
I think if you're going to fight the mountain you don't want to use swords at all.

Jon snow, yes, very possible, remember that thane chieftain he killed at castle black? Just a smarter less brawny version of the mountain

kay9:
I get amused when people underestimate Jon Snow...

Battle of Castle Black, Snow vs. Thenn; that's for skill. Battle of Hardhome, Snow vs. Whitewalker; that's for speed. Bast@rds Bowl, Snow survives cavalry charge, survives the battle, survives stampede, runs on foot all the way to the castle gates, and finishes the fight inside Winterfell; that's for endurance. Jon wields Longclaw, a bast@rd sword which another half-foot longer than the usual longsword, and still light enough to swing with one hand. Am i still making you laff?

Definitely not

BraniacX:
I disagree with you, unless you'll say that loras tyrell could beat oberyn martell because yes that is how jamie lannister saw loras tyrell! A younger, more arrogant and likewise supremely confident version of himself and as well, a deadly effective fighter and prime kingsguard material, but i don't know if you'll agree with me, for all that he still isn't oberyn martell whose reputation (evil of course ) is well known and some worse part of it mere whispers and yes, he's too smart a fighter and well versed in multiple fighting styles from first hand experience in mereen's fighting pits not to know which fighting styles easily defeats an opponent in a duel! There are few fighters of that era who i would have pitched against oberyn martell and expect them to stand a chance and these are all smart fighters not proud, cocky or arrogant nor fierce and maybe my list will suprise you but they are bronn, daario naharis, quorhin halfhand, and what's the name of that thief and slit throat sent to the nightswatch killed by jon at crasters lodge? See i did not add jon snow, khaal drogo, barristen selmy, brienne of tarth and others who fight with ferocity of conviction? Only those who are personally aware of their surrounding asides their opponent and always looking for every advantage they can find and that is not your typical westerosi knight, maybe a braavosi water dancing master but not a westerosi knight and not a leap and strike dotharaki warlord!
But i'm confident samurai arthur dayne would have ownes him

^^
You and Arthur Dayne sef, lol...

A sound analysis sha.

SIRcumalot:
Yes.
Surviving a Calvary charge is down to luck more than anything else (plus that was a stupid move)
The thenn had snow dead to right if not for that hammer lying nearby.
Samwise killed a whitewalker,what you need Is the right tool.
Jon snow by his very own admission says he isn't as good as his step brother,Robb who isn't even cofident in his own ability to fight the kingslayer.
We can't put Jon in the elite just yet.

Jon snow implied rob was the stronger fighter and with better use of the spear, axe, mace, hammer and other weapons requiring strength, jon snow also tacitly admitted (not a boast) to being the more skillful and faster fighter and best with a short and longsword! Though i think rob would have wielded the greatsword ice better in combat due to his tully musculature and strength

armadeo:
You underestimate Jon snow.
He's one of the best swords man in the world.
He would take the mountain.

Jamie would kill the viper easily. From the books point of view.
He would also kill the moumtain.

IMO

You have to give reasons as to your point of view too

SIRcumalot:
He survived those arrows because of plot armour,nothing more.
He was owned by the thenn,that isn't a confirmation of skill with the sword.
I also don't see any reason why any other capable fighter won't defeat the white walker once you've the tools to do so.
Oberyn,bronn and the cleagane brothers are renowned fighters,jon is still below this guys.

Oberyn and bronn yes, but the clegane brothers put me in the mind of thenns and jon could take gregor with required effort of course, but i wouldn't stick my head out for either when pitted against a forever foul tempered and equally skilled at fighting sandor! We should not because of gregor classify sandor as another all brawny not brainy clegane fighter as he had skills to compesate when brawn wasn't enough as was shown against berric dundarrion who we would all agree was no pushover

kay9:
We all know the Halfhand fight was a ruse. And you are right that Snow's skill is overrated by people in both show and books (Ramsay's words before the Bast@rd Bowl, something along the lines of Jon now the best swordsman alive...). I will admit, the best fighters still alive in the GoT universe look something like this: Robert Strong > Bronn > Daario > the Hound > Tormund > Brienne...

But imagine this: Jon and Sansa somehow run into Zombie Clagane, and Zombie Clagane punches Sansa's face in; Jon loses it, whips out his sword and Longclaw starts singing. Who do think wins that fight? Maybe I'm just sentimental but I think Jon Snow will win that fight, most likely by act of god.

Well, when we factor writers and directors predilection, anything is possible, but if we were to analyse based on what we have read and seen, my list will be thus robert strong> victarion greyjoy> barristen selmy > daario naharis > bronn > jon snow> brienne of tarth > torthmund giantsbabe > the sandsnakes clan

Euron greyjoy should be in there too but i can't yet figure him out fighting wise, maybe you can but the best GOT fighters are long dead

kay9:
The above bolded is why 100 Arthur Dayne's may not be able to beat 100 Unsullied that easily... it will come down to the terrain of the battle. Open field; the Daynes finish the fight in less than an hour. Closed in terrain with flanks fully covered; it will probably take the whole day, but the Unsullied will take the day.

I am not talking about arthur dayne in terms of style of fight but in terms of quality of fighters man to man! A single arthur dayne i don't know if you agree with me is worth more than 10 unsullied in a battle field

I hope you all know Jaime is better at trash talks. He could easily get under someone's skin, figure their weakness during a fight, and use their reaction, which of course would be rash, to his advantage.

BraniacX:
Well, when we factor writers and directors predilection, anything is possible, but if we were to analyse based on what we have read and seen, my list will be thus robert strong> victarion greyjoy> barristen selmy > daario naharis > bronn > jon snow> brienne of tarth > torthmund giantsbabe > the sandsnakes clan

Euron greyjoy should be in there too but i can't yet figure him out fighting wise, maybe you can but the best GOT fighters are long dead

Where is the Hound?

Barristan is dead in the show and Victarion's character isn't cast at all. I think that counts them out here. Jon Snow has consistently bested fighters that ordinarily should beat him in a fair duel, so he's kind of a wild card; on a list i'd rather place him where he would be without his "assisted" power levels, which is below Brienne. So the real question is, will Brienne beat Tormund "Giantsbabe"? I think not.


EDIT:
Hang on, i take it back. Snow would beat Brienne. And at his current experience level, without "assistance", he could possibly best Tormund if Stark honor is at stake.

BraniacX:
Oberyn and bronn yes, but the clegane brothers put me in the mind of thenns and jon could take gregor with required effort of course, but i wouldn't stick my head out for either when pitted against a forever foul tempered and equally skilled at fighting sandor! We should not because of gregor classify sandor as another all brawny not brainy clegane fighter as he had skills to compesate when brawn wasn't enough as was shown against berric dundarrion who we would all agree was no pushover

I called all of them renowned because that is what they're,I don't discriminate based on brain or brawn. You fight with the advantage you have,and sometimes All the brain in the world won't help and vice-versa.
Sandor is my favorite fighter

BraniacX:
Jon snow, yes, very possible, remember that thane chieftain he killed at castle black? Just a smarter less brawny version of the mountain

Because of a "conveniently" placed hammer lying within reach still not enough for me to put him up there.though am sure he will be a great in his prime,his just not there yet,Jon is still a child.

kay9:
Where is the Hound?

Barristan is dead in the show and Victarion's character isn't cast at all. I think that counts them out here. Jon Snow has consistently bested fighters that ordinarily should beat him in a fair duel, so he's kind of a wild card; on a list i'd rather place him where he would be without his "assisted" power levels, which is below Brienne. So the real question is, will Brienne beat Tormund "Giantsbabe"? I think not.


EDIT:
Hang on, i take it back. Snow would be beat Brienne. And at his current experience level, without "assistance", he could possibly best Tormund if Stark honor is at stake.

Oops! my bad! thought i put him there somewhere before giantsbabe!! John snows greatest motivation in combat has always been that of a typical stark, in descending order love=>honour=>duty because while their honourability could be very overwhelming and cloud us from seeing everything else, a starks biggest motivator is love of family! And i don't know, can Robert strong die any other way apart from incineration?

BraniacX:
Jon snow implied rob was the stronger fighter and with better use of the spear, axe, mace, hammer and other weapons requiring strength, jon snow also tacitly admitted (not a boast) to being the more skillful and faster fighter and best with a short and longsword! Though i think rob would have wielded the greatsword ice better in combat due to his tully musculature and strength

I have a vague memory of him sparring with the Mance and losing from the books.
Jon is still young and he'll probably be a great swordsman but his not there yet.
Certainly not enough to go fight a twisted old fork like the Mountain.

BraniacX:
I am not talking about arthur dayne in terms of style of fight but in terms of quality of fighters man to man! A single arthur dayne i don't know if you agree with me is worth more than 10 unsullied in a battle field

My brother, it depends on the battlefield.

On an average day, even 15 Unsullied would problems taking down Arthur Dayne. But add a smart experienced general on the side of the Unsullied, and you have another Thermopylae waiting to happen.

What you can do though, is put Arthur Dayne on a horse. A war destrier to charge through that shield-wall, and the Sword of the Morning finishes everything else.

SIRcumalot:
I have a vague memory of him sparring with the Mance and losing from the books.
Jon is still young and he'll probably be a great swordsman but his not there yet.
Certainly not enough to go fight a twisted old fork like the Mountain.

Yes he lost to mance raider, mance was a contemporary of qhorin halfhand and no mean fighter plus he was still recovering from an injury to his fighting hand and it wasn't the sword fight he lost necessarily, it was the brawl that ensued when mance danced into his range and took him in the ensuing brawl

SIRcumalot:
Because of a "conveniently" placed hammer lying within reach still not enough for me to put him up there.though am sure he will be a great in his prime,his just not there yet,Jon is still a child.

Yes because a longsword wielded by a still healing and wiry framed jon snow against a war axe wielded by a giant brawny thenn was a fair and convenient fight in the first place

SIRcumalot:
I called all of them renowned because that is what they're,I don't discriminate based on brain or brawn. You fight with the advantage you have,and sometimes All the brain in the world won't help and vice-versa.
Sandor is my favorite fighter

They all had their individual advantages, jon's is skill and speed, he's proven to have battle endurance too, he's less of a european style thrust and parry fighter in combat and more of japanese samurai one kill-cut strike so in a duel, anything is possible, but in a battle, i go for jon and besides, he's brawning up a little and yes he's still a kid and his rep is building up and like sandor told sansa, your sons will be killers, your brothers are all killers

Favourite fighter for now, i don't know

kay9:
My brother, it depends on the battlefield.

On an average day, even 15 Unsullied would problems taking down Arthur Dayne. But add a smart experienced general on the side of the Unsullied, and you have another Thermopylae waiting to happen.

What you can do though, is put Arthur Dayne on a horse. A war destrier to charge through that shield-wall, and the Sword of the Morning finishes everything else.

I never disagreed with you, I just implied that assuming they both had smart generals and terrain and tactics cancelled each other out, then it will be a gladiator fest at the forum romanum and the daynes win

BraniacX:
Yes because a longsword wielded by a still healing and wiry framed jon snow against a war axe wielded by a giant brawny thenn was a fair and convenient fight in the first place

Only you can make welding a longsword made of valarian steel seem a disadvantage and thanks to kay,I know it is lighter than the regular kind which is certainly what Jon trained.also a trained fighter would know what weapon suits him best.
Is it always going to be the injury defence?
I could as well dismiss all the fight Jon has been because he was better armed with weapons and superior training.

BraniacX:
They all had their individual advantages, jon's is skill and speed, he's proven to have battle endurance too, he's less of a european style thrust and parry fighter in combat and more of japanese samurai one kill-cut strike so in a duel, anything is possible, but in a battle, i go for jon and besides, he's brawning up a little and yes he's still a kid and his rep is building up and like sandor told sansa, your sons will be killers, your brothers are all killers

Favourite fighter for now, i don't know

How many cuts would it take to kill a Giant in a suit of armour who we already know can take a lot of punishment ?
Jon as depicted so far will die a horrible death. Duel or no duel.

SIRcumalot:
Only you can make welding a longsword made of valarian steel seem a disadvantage and thanks to kay,I know it is lighter than the regular kind which is certainly what Jon trained.also a trained fighter would know what weapon suits him best.
Is it always going to be the injury defence?
I could as well dismiss all the fight Jon has been because he was better armed with weapons and superior training.

Well, good you couldn't dismiss the injury excuse, seeing as i didn't use that for hardhome, battle of winterfell e.t.c

And the injury excuse, is as written in the book itself, i would make the same excuse for victarion and his black hand but seeing as that hardly slowed him down, what do you say? Or maybe it is because he never fought thenns

SIRcumalot:
How many cuts would it take to kill a Giant in a suit of armour who we already know can take a lot of punishment ?
Jon as depicted so far will die a horrible death. Duel or no duel.

wear him down as aptly suggested by bronn in his advice to theon, but then, poison has its own unique advantages eh?

Pity jon is too honourable to see that

Jon is prolly the greatest swordsman in the North currently and that's why he is well respected by both the Northmen and Free Folk.All great swordsmen built their reputation piece by piece and Jon is currently building his.

All this talk just reminded me of what Jaime told Loras in the books:

“I learned from the White Bull and Barristan the Bold,I learned from Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, who could have slain all five of you with his left hand while he was taking a piss with the right . I learned from Prince Lewyn of Dorne and Ser Oswell Whent and Ser Jonothor Darry, good men every one.”

SIRcumalot:
Only you can make welding a longsword made of valarian steel seem a disadvantage and thanks to kay,I know it is lighter than the regular kind which is certainly what Jon trained.also a trained fighter would know what weapon suits him best.
Is it always going to be the injury defence?
I could as well dismiss all the fight Jon has been because he was better armed with weapons and superior training.

Actually, Longclaw is a bast@rd sword; it is an extra half-foot longer than the regular longsword. Of course that doesn't help the argument that Snow was disadvantaged...

But i still stand by my opinion: if it came down to a duel to the death between Snow and Gregor, Snow would win. Blame it on "special assistance" if you like.

SIRcumalot:
How many cuts would it take to kill a Giant in a suit of armour who we already know can take a lot of punishment ?
Jon as depicted so far will die a horrible death. Duel or no duel.

Lemme ask you something, besides th staged fight with Qhorin, why is it that each and every time Jon Snow is matched in a kill-or-be-killed fight against stronger, more experienced, and more powerful opponents, he comes out on top? Just dumb luck? In a world as gritty and stark (pardon the pun ) as the one GRRM is crafting, how long can such luck hold? I prefer to think that the book author and show producers are trying to tell us something about the guy: never underestimate him.

BraniacX:
wear him down as aptly suggested by bronn in his advice to theon, but then, poison has its own unique advantages eh?

Pity jon is too honourable to see that

Oberyn,did the above:lithe movement to wear the mountain plus the added benefit of not being weighed down by honor we saw how that worked out. (Yeah emotion got in the way) but after all the wound sustained by Gregor,he shouldn't have been able to do anything again.

BraniacX:
Well, good you couldn't dismiss the injury excuse, seeing as i didn't use that for hardhome, battle of winterfell e.t.c

And the injury excuse, is as written in the book itself, i would make the same excuse for victarion and his black hand but seeing as that hardly slowed him down, what do you say? Or maybe it is because he never fought thenns

Probably,
What solo Martial feat as victarion performed that we know of,for him to feature in this discussion?
Plus the black-hand came has a result of healing from that drowned god priest or something.

kay9:
Actually, Longclaw is a bast@rd sword; it is an extra half-foot longer than the regular longsword. Of course that doesn't help the argument that Snow was disadvantaged...

But i still stand by my opinion: if it came down to a duel to the death between Snow and Gregor, Snow would win. Blame it on "special assistance" if you like.

I was going for the lightness of the Valerian steel and his familarity with the weapon that sword has been his for awhile now