₦airaland Forum

frosbel2:
Don't be silly , Jesus Christ is not GOD, he was a MAN.

"Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know " - Acts 2:22

Talk2nanro:
dont be stupid, Jesus was an angel that came in form of a man to earth to die for die for our sins.

OLAADEGBU:
I can see that you are progressing in the opposite direction.

frosbel2:
"Parents must not be put to death for the sins of their children, nor children for the sins of their parents. Those deserving to die must be put to death for their own crimes." - Deuteronomy 24:16

"In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge" - Jeremiah 31:29-30

" So Moses went back to the Lord and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.” The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.” - Exodus 32:31-34

No man can by any means redeem his brother Or give to God a ransom for him -Psalm 49:7

In the light of the scriptures above , God has consistently all over the bible said that NO MAN can die for the sins of another MAN. so how come many of us believe that Jesus died for our sins, is this not massively CONTRADICTORY ??

frosbel2:
So my question is simple if God requires blood to forgive our SINs, why was he able to forgive sins without BLOOD in the ancient days up to the arrival of Jesus?

Consider the following bible verses;

"If, however, they cannot afford two doves or two young pigeons, they are to bring as an offering for their sin a tenth of an ephah of the finest flour for a sin offering. They must not put olive oil or incense on it because it is a sin offering " - Leviticus 5:11


We see that God accepted flour as a sin offering in this verse, no blood required - why?

"I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats......Stop bringing meaningless offerings!...even when you offer many prayers, I am not listening. Your hands are full of blood!......Wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight; stop doing wrong " - Isaiah 1:11-17

Here God is tired of all the vague, fake and meaningless offerings, he wants REPENTANCE and then he will forgive, case closed. NO BLOOD required.

"Come now, let us settle the matter," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool" - Isaiah 1:18

God forgives as long as we stop doing wrong and repent from your evil ways, again NO BLOOD SACRIFICE require, just plain repentance.


"I have swept away your offenses like a cloud, your sins like the morning mist. Return to me, for I have redeemed you." - Isaiah 44:22

Here again, God forgives, NO BLOOD required.


Read Jonah 3 where God did not destroy Nineveh because the people repented. I can quote much more bible verses.

So answer my questions

1. Why does God need a man to forgive sins
2. Assuming God became a man, why did he become a man to forgive sins when he had been forgiving the sins of thousands prior to this period.
3. If we need the blood of Jesus to be redeemed and saved, where does that leave the thousands of righteousness ones who died before Jesus appeared
4. Why did it take over 1,500 years for the news about Jesus to reach sub-Saharan African if it was that important?

I need answers

frosbel2:
So my question is simple if God requires blood to forgive our SINs, why was he able to forgive sins without BLOOD in the ancient days up to the arrival of Jesus?

Consider the following bible verses;

"If, however, they cannot afford two doves or two young pigeons, they are to bring as an offering for their sin a tenth of an ephah of the finest flour for a sin offering. They must not put olive oil or incense on it because it is a sin offering " - Leviticus 5:11


We see that God accepted flour as a sin offering in this verse, no blood required - why?

"I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats......Stop bringing meaningless offerings!...even when you offer many prayers, I am not listening. Your hands are full of blood!......Wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight; stop doing wrong " - Isaiah 1:11-17

Here God is tired of all the vague, fake and meaningless offerings, he wants REPENTANCE and then he will forgive, case closed. NO BLOOD required.

"Come now, let us settle the matter," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool" - Isaiah 1:18

God forgives as long as we stop doing wrong and repent from your evil ways, again NO BLOOD SACRIFICE require, just plain repentance.


"I have swept away your offenses like a cloud, your sins like the morning mist. Return to me, for I have redeemed you." - Isaiah 44:22

Here again, God forgives, NO BLOOD required.


Read Jonah 3 where God did not destroy Nineveh because the people repented. I can quote much more bible verses.

So answer my questions

1. Why does God need a man to forgive sins
2. Assuming God became a man, why did he become a man to forgive sins when he had been forgiving the sins of thousands prior to this period.
3. If we need the blood of Jesus to be redeemed and saved, where does that leave the thousands of righteousness ones who died before Jesus appeared
4. Why did it take over 1,500 years for the news about Jesus to reach sub-Saharan African if it was that important?

I need answers

truthislight:
The above four questions sure deserves answers.

Come on @Goshen360

Goshen360:
Hey brother!

Longest time. This one wey you call me like this, you wan give me big assignment be this o....lol.

Anyway, we, as students of the word have to find an explanation to scriptures flying around in the thread. Its a lots of work to be done. I have seen and read scriptures quoted by Frosbel but how do we explain scriptures like:

New Living Translation
I passed on to you what was most important and what had also been passed on to me. Christ died for our sins, just as the Scriptures said.
1 Corinthians 15:3

Hebrews 9:28
so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.

It's so busy for me because I work 2 jobs and I'm try hard to find time to come here and explain things in details. However, I'll see what I will do and go over the thread from the beginning.

The Church appeals to this verse to prove that the blood of the cross is man’s only hope for salvation and the assurance that God will forgive his sins.

In response to this argument, I have explained that contrary to the missionary claim that blood sacrifice is the only method of atonement, the Bible clearly prescribes three methods of atonement: the sin sacrifice, repentance, and charity. Moreover, the sin sacrifice (called in the Jewish Scriptures as korban chatat) did not atone for all types of sin, but rather, only for man’s most insignificant iniquity: unintentional sins. The sin sacrifice was inadequate to atone for a transgression committed intentionally. The brazen sinner was barred from the sanctuary and had to bear his own iniquity because of his rebellion against God. The Torah teaches this fundamental principle:

If a person sins unintentionally, then he shall offer a one-year-old female goat for a sin offering. The priest shall make atonement before the Lord for the person who goes astray when he sins unintentionally, making atonement for him that he may be forgiven …The person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or alien, that one is blaspheming the Lord; and that person shall be cut off from among his people, because he has despised the word of the Lord and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be on him - (Numbers 15:27-31)

[edited]
“If the sin sacrifice was necessary in order to atone for unintentional sin, didn’t Jesus then have to die for those sins committed unwittingly?”

The answer to your question is simple. Jesus could not die for anyone’s sins, whether they were committed intentionally or accidentally. To begin with, the Jewish people were strictly prohibited from offering human sacrifices under any circumstances. There is not one place throughout the entire corpus of the Jewish Scriptures where human sacrifices are condoned. In fact, over and over again, the Bible warns the Jewish people that it is a grave sin to bring a human being as a sacrifice. In the Book of Leviticus, only distinct species of animals are permitted for use in blood sacrifices.

The ancient pagan religions promoted the same idea about atonement as Christendom continues to preach today (e.g. Molech). They would joyfully offer a child into the fires of their sacrificial offering in order to expiate their sins and appease the gods. Why would a child sacrifice be used in this pagan ritual rather than an adult? The reason is that a child is a moving portrait of one who is innocent of sin. A child, they reasoned, could not have committed iniquity and thus mirrored the animal sacrifice which also had to be unblemished. The Torah, therefore, condemned human sacrifices and forewarned Jewish people of terrible consequences if this commandment were violated.

This message was conveyed at Mt. Moriah, where Abraham prepared to offer up his beloved son Isaac as a sacrifice. At that epic moment in history, as Abraham was ready to sacrifice Isaac, the Almighty admonished him that He did not desire human sacrifice, and directed Abraham to sacrifice the ram caught in the thicket instead. The Almighty’s directive – He only wanted animal sacrifices rather than human sacrifices – was immediately understood. This teaching has never departed from the mind and soul of the children of Israel.

Furthermore, the prophet Ezekiel warned the Jewish nation that a righteous man could not atone for the wins of the wicked. Wouldn’t we consider a father cruel if he punished an obedient child for the misdeeds of another? Only an unjust society would pardon its criminals while imprisoning the innocent. The prophet, therefore, warns that no innocent person can die for the sins of the wicked!

The soul that sins, it shall die! The son shall not bear for the sin of the father, nor the father bear for the sin of the son. The righteousness of the righteous person shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked person shall be upon him. 21As for the wicked man, if he should turn away from all his sins which he did, and safeguard all My decrees, and do justice and righteousness; he shall surely live. He will not die. 22All his transgressions which he committed will not be remembered against him. For the righteousness which he did, he shall live. 23Do I desire at all the death of the wicked man — the words of my Lord, God — is it not rather his return from his ways, that he might live? - (Ezekiel 18:20-23)

Moreover, if missionaries want to use Leviticus 17:11 to bolster their claim that blood sacrifices are indispensable for procuring an atonement, they must use all of the verse, not just a part of it. Leviticus 17:11 specifically says that the blood of the sacrifice must be placed “upon the altar to make atonement for your souls.” That is to say, Leviticus 17:11 explicitly declares that blood can only effect atonement if it is placed on the altar. Jesus’ blood, however, was never placed on the altar. If the Church is going to take the “blood” part of the verse literally, they must also take the “altar” part literally as well. Jesus’ blood was never sprinkled on the altar, and therefore his death could not provide atonement for anyone.

Finally, the prophets loudly declared to the Jewish people that the contrite prayer of the penitent sinner replaces the sacrificial system. Therefore, atonement for unintentional sins today is expiated through devotional supplication to God, the Merciful One.

In fact, in the third chapter of Hosea, the prophet foretold with divine exactness that the nation of Israel would not have a sacrificial system during the last segment of Jewish history until the messianic age. Hosea declares,

…for the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. Afterward, the children of Israel shall return and seek the Lord their God and David their king. They shall fear the Lord and His goodness in the latter days -
(Hosea 3:4-5)

In the words of the Bible, this period of time would last for many days. Yet, despite the repeated proclamations of the Church that the crucifixion of Jesus serves as a sin sacrifice today, the words of Hosea were meticulously fulfilled, and we remain without an animal sacrificial until this day.

Given the spiritual magnitude of this remarkable prophecy, Hosea was compelled to reveal how the ecclesiastical Temple functions were it to be replaced. In essence, if the prophet is testifying that the nation of Israel will indeed be without a sacrificial system during their long exile until the messianic age, what are we to use instead? How are the Jewish people to atone for unintentional sin without a blood sacrifice during their bitter exile? What about all the animal sacrifices prescribed in the Book of Leviticus? Can the Jewish people get along without animal offerings? Missionaries claim they cannot.

The Bible disagrees.

For this reason, the teaching highlighted in Hosea 14:2-3 is crucial. In these two verses, Hosea reveals to his nation how they are to replace the sacrificial system during their protracted exile. The prophet declares that the Almighty wants us to “render for bulls the offering of our lips.” Prayer is to replace the sacrificial system. Hosea states,

Take words with you, and return to the Lord. Say to Him, “Take away all iniquity; receive us graciously, for we will render for bulls the offering of our lips” - (Hosea 14:2-3)

The prophets never instruct the Jews to worship any crucified messiah or demigod; nor does Scripture suggest that an innocent man could die as an atonement for the sins of the wicked. Such a message is utterly antithetical to the teachings of the Jewish Scriptures. Rather, it is the prayers of the sinner that would become as bulls of the sin offerings.

King Solomon echoes this sentiment as well.

In I Kings 8:46-50, King Solomon delivers a startling prophetic message as he inaugurates the newly constructed first Temple. In his inauguration sermon, King Solomon forewarns that one day the Jewish people would be driven out of the land of Israel, and banished to the land of their enemies, near and far. During their exile, many would fervently desire to repent of their sins. King Solomon then declares that they are to face Jerusalem from their diaspora, confess their sins, “and God will hear their prayers in heaven, and forgive them for all their transgressions.”

If they sin against You, for there is no man who does not sin, and You will be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, and their captors will carry them away captive to the land of the enemy, far or near. And they shall bethink themselves in the land where they were carried captive, and repent, and make supplication to You in the land of their captors, saying,‘We have sinned, and have done perversely, we have committed wickedness.’ And they shall return to You with all their heart, and with all their soul, in the land of their enemies, who led them away captive, and pray to You toward their land, which You gave to their fathers, the city You have chosen, and the house which I have built for Your name. And You shall hear their prayer and their supplication in heaven, in Your dwelling place, and maintain their cause. And forgive Your people for what they have sinned against You, and all their transgressions that they have transgressed against You…- (I Kings 8:46-50)

There was no mention of a cross or a dead messiah in King Solomon’s prophetic message. Only the contrite and repentant prayer of the remorseful sinner can bring about a complete atonement. Although King Solomon’s timeless message stands out as a theological impossibility in Christian terms, it remains the warm, centerpiece of the God’s system of atonement throughout his long and bitter exile.

https://outreachjudaism.org/jesus-death-atone-for-sin/

Goshen360:
Hey brother!

Longest time. This one wey you call me like this, you wan give me big assignment be this o....lol.

Anyway, we, as students of the word have to find an explanation to scriptures flying around in the thread. Its a lots of work to be done. I have seen and read scriptures quoted by Frosbel but how do we explain scriptures like:

New Living Translation
I passed on to you what was most important and what had also been passed on to me. Christ died for our sins, just as the Scriptures said.
1 Corinthians 15:3

Hebrews 9:28
so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.

It's so busy for me because I work 2 jobs and I'm try hard to find time to come here and explain things in details. However, I'll see what I will do and go over the thread from beginning.

frosbel2:
Hi Goshen,

Please show us the scriptures from the old testament that support these new testament passages , please they have to be specific matches.

Thanks.

frosbel2:
So my question is simple if God requires blood to forgive our SINs, why was he able to forgive sins without BLOOD in the ancient days up to the arrival of Jesus?

Consider the following bible verses;

"If, however, they cannot afford two doves or two young pigeons, they are to bring as an offering for their sin a tenth of an ephah of the finest flour for a sin offering. They must not put olive oil or incense on it because it is a sin offering " - Leviticus 5:11


We see that God accepted flour as a sin offering in this verse, no blood required - why?

"I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats......Stop bringing meaningless offerings!...even when you offer many prayers, I am not listening. Your hands are full of blood!......Wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight; stop doing wrong " - Isaiah 1:11-17

Here God is tired of all the vague, fake and meaningless offerings, he wants REPENTANCE and then he will forgive, case closed. NO BLOOD required.

"Come now, let us settle the matter," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool" - Isaiah 1:18

God forgives as long as we stop doing wrong and repent from your evil ways, again NO BLOOD SACRIFICE require, just plain repentance.


"I have swept away your offenses like a cloud, your sins like the morning mist. Return to me, for I have redeemed you." - Isaiah 44:22

Here again, God forgives, NO BLOOD required.


Read Jonah 3 where God did not destroy Nineveh because the people repented. I can quote much more bible verses.

So answer my questions

1. Why does God need a man to forgive sins
2. Assuming God became a man, why did he become a man to forgive sins when he had been forgiving the sins of thousands prior to this period.
3. If we need the blood of Jesus to be redeemed and saved, where does that leave the thousands of righteousness ones who died before Jesus appeared
4. Why did it take over 1,500 years for the news about Jesus to reach sub-Saharan African if it was that important?

I need answers

Goshen360:
Thank you, truthislight, I see you have time to expound the exact thing I wanted to do. Obviously, when people read the word sin in scriptures, they won't check what it's talking about. It means 2 different things in scriptures but context with tell which one applies and or how it's used interchangeably. But I'm following up with the discussion.

truthislight:
@Frosbel2

Please, I need your comment on the scriptures Below:

Daniel 9:26-27New King James Version (NKJV)

26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
.....................................................................................................


Your comment on the Above scriptures.

Peace

frosbel2:
This says nothing about the messiah dying for the sins of the people ?

truthislight:
Since it is not only Frosbel2 that is reading this thread, it is important that the below scriptures be posted here:


Isaiah 53:4,5

4 Truly he himself carried our sicknesses, And he bore our pains. But we considered him as plagued, stricken by God and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgression; He was crushed for our errors. He bore the punishment for our peace And because of his wounds we were healed


7 He was oppressed and he let himself be afflicted, But he would not open his mouth. He was brought like a sheep to the slaughter, Like a ewe that is silent before its shearers,And he would not
open his mouth. 8 Because of restraint and judgment he was taken away; And who will concern himself with the details of his generation? For he was cut off from the land of the living;Because of the transgression of my people he received the stroke.

9 And he was given a burial place with the wicked, And with the rich in his death, Although he had done no wrong And there was no deception in his mouth


11 Because of his anguish, he will see and be satisfied. By means of his knowledge the righteous one, my servant, Will bring a righteous standing to many people, And their errors he will bear. 12 For that reason I will assign him a portion among the many, And he will apportion the spoil with the mighty, Because he poured out his life even to death. And was counted among the transgressors; He carried the sin of many people And he interceded for the transgressors

frosbel2:
"Parents must not be put to death for the sins of their children, nor children for the sins of their parents. Those deserving to die must be put to death for their own crimes." - Deuteronomy 24:16

"In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge" - Jeremiah 31:29-30

" So Moses went back to the Lord and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.” The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.” - Exodus 32:31-34

No man can by any means redeem his brother Or give to God a ransom for him -Psalm 49:7

In the light of the scriptures above , God has consistently all over the bible said that NO MAN can die for the sins of another MAN. so how come many of us believe that Jesus died for our sins, is this not massively CONTRADICTORY ??

truthislight:
Isaiah 53:4,5

4 Truly he himself carried our sicknesses, And he bore our pains. But we considered him as plagued, stricken by God and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgression; He was crushed for our errors. He bore the punishment for our peace And because of his wounds we were healed


7 He was oppressed and he let himself be afflicted, But he would not open his mouth. He was brought like a sheep to the slaughter, Like a ewe that is silent before its shearers,And he would not
open his mouth. 8 Because of restraint and judgment he was taken away; And who will concern himself with the details of his generation? For he was cut off from the land of the living;Because of the transgression of my people he received the stroke.

9 And he was given a burial place with the wicked, And with the rich in his death, Although he had done no wrong And there was no deception in his mouth


11 Because of his anguish, he will see and be satisfied. By means of his knowledge the righteous one, my servant, Will bring a righteous standing to many people, And their errors he will bear. 12 For that reason I will assign him a portion among the many, And he will apportion the spoil with the mighty, Because he poured out his life even to death. And was counted among the transgressors; He carried the sin of many people And he interceded for the transgressors

frosbel2:
Hi Goshen,

Please show us the scriptures from the old testament that support these new testament passages , please they have to be specific matches.

Thanks.

frosbel2:
All you have done is throw bible verses at me and make ambiguous statements that have no factual foundation.

Try again !

In the light of the scriptures above , God has consistently all over the bible said that NO MAN can die for the sins of another MAN. so how come many of us believe that Jesus died for our sins, is this not massively CONTRADICTORY ??

DoctorAlien:
■Very foolish and unlearned question. No man can give his life to save another man from the demands of the Law of GOD because every man has sinned/transgressed that same law.
■ The Law is as sacred as its Giver (GOD Himself), and only the life of the Lawgiver (GOD) can deliver from the demands of the Law(seeing that the Law demands the death of its transgressor). Jesus Christ is fully GOD. But in His Heavenly state as the Almighty Creator and Lawgiver, nothing can take His life. He therefore took on flesh, while retaining His Divinity, so as to be able to give up His life for our sins.
■ That's how much He loves us. GOD died just to make sure we live.

Splinz:
■ Calm down bro. There's absolutely nothing contradictory here. Here's what you lack: knowledge of Jesus personage. Have you not also read from the same Bible that this Jesus was sinless

DoctorAlien:
Very foolish and unlearned question.

No man can give his life to save another man from the demands of the Law of GOD because every man has sinned/transgressed that same law.

The Law is as sacred as its Giver (GOD Himself), and only the life of the Lawgiver (GOD) can deliver from the demands of the Law(seeing that the Law demands the death of its transgressor). Jesus Christ is fully GOD. But in His Heavenly state as the Almighty Creator and Lawgiver, nothing can take His life. He therefore took on flesh, while retaining His Divinity, so as to be able to give up His life for our sins.

That's how much He loves us. GOD died just to make sure we live.