₦airaland Forum

It's not errors. It's decipher because of you all that wants to apply worldly wisdom to God's words

luvmijeje:
It's not errors. It's decipher because of you all that wants to apply worldly wisdom to God's words

Which one is "worldly" wisdom again?

Christians folks and their bogus claims

onyenze123:
Which one is "worldly" wisdom again?

Christians folks and their bogus claims

Check out my signature.

luvmijeje:
Check out my signature.

lol!

They knew very well that religion/Christianity when subjected to reasoning and logic, holds no group. That's why they include that verse to make human reasoning child-like

I hear stuffs like God works in mysterious ways, God knows the best, "worldly wisdom"...

Organized religion is BS

ilynem:
That is just plain wrong

HOW? ARE THEY NOT IN THOSE QURAN VERSES?

Read open heavens by EA. Adeboye

ilynem:
Oh and lest i forget. Like I said, I am still reading about the genealogies of the Matthew and Luke. My explanation isn't FACT! Its still a hypothesis I am exploring. But don't you realize that a problem for us is also a problem for Islam? Because the Koran confirms the authenticity and preservation of the gospels. But let's leave this argument for another day and focus on the one at hand.

Can you provide proof for your claim pls @highlighted

highscript:
I will definitely help you but give me time CUs I don't have data to browse , I'm browsing with Airtel free basic to surf Nairaland free

ok..apprrciated

ilynem:
Quick question. The Sura I quoted, was that talking about the first Mary (actual sister of Aaron) or second Mary (mother of Jesus)?

surah Al-imran was talking about mother of jesus..sorry I think I made a mistake in my prev post by saying its refering to 1st Mary instead of 2nd mary

aminusanti:
Can you provide proof for your claim pls @highlighted

Surah 5:47: And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.
Surah 5: 68: Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.
Surah 18: 27: And recite, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord. There is no changer of His words, and never will you find in other than Him a refuge.
This last surah says you can't change Allah's words. So its a wonder how many Muslims claim Paul and latter day Christians changed his words? Remember Christianity was almost 700 years old when this verse was revealed.

aminusanti:
surah Al-imran was talking about mother of jesus..sorry I think I made a mistake in my prev post by saying its refering to 1st Mary instead of 2nd mary

Now read that verse again. It says Mary came out of the womb of the wife of Imran (who is Aaron's father). Care to explain that?

aminusanti:
surah Al-imran was talking about mother of jesus..sorry I think I made a mistake in my prev post by saying its refering to 1st Mary instead of 2nd mary

Confused fellow.

alBHAGDADI:
Confused fellow.

The guy is as confused as Mohammed himself.

true2god:
The guy is as confused as Mohammed himself.

His Al taquiya got busted.

He needs to call udatso

ilynem:
Now read that verse again. It says Mary came out of the womb of the wife of Imran (who is Aaron's father). Care to explain that?

nothing much to xplain on dis verse, its straight forward thing...what are u trying to xplain on dis verse p ls, not clear

aminusanti:
nothing much to xplain on dis verse, its straight forward thing...what are u trying to xplain on dis verse p ls, not clear

You don't get it. Mary the mother was Jesus was born by the wife of Imran, mother of Aaron. It says Mary came out of the wife of Imran. Does that not make Aaron and Mary mother of Jesus siblings according to your Koran? Let's be honest here.

ilynem:
You don't get it. Mary the mother was Jesus was born by the wife of Imran, mother of Aaron. It says Mary came out of the wife of Imran. Does that not make Aaron and Mary mother of Jesus siblings according to your Koran? Let's be honest here.

I think u r mixing things up here..
If u can go back nd read my previous posts i already explain all this...
° the mary this verse is talking about was the mother of jesus and her fathers name was also Imram

° the 1st mary which was aaron and moses sister their fathers name was also imran and they live in different time period with mary mother of jesus

ilynem:
Surah 5:47: And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.
Surah 5: 68: Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.

This verse refers to the Gospel, which is not distorted and altered. Allah is referring in these verses to the commands He stated in the original Gospel so that all the verses are about the unchanged or unaltered commands of Allah in the Gospel.

Allah commands the Christians to judge by the revealed Book, not by the New Testament which is a collection of books written by a wide variety of authors. In this case, Christians are unable to judge by these Books except through the Holy Qur'an and acceptance of Prophet Muhammad's message. This is the only possible way to judge by the Gospel because the Qur'an was sent down affirming its original message and is a protector over it. This is emphasized in verse 48...



SAnyone could simply pick up a Qur'an and grab a pen and scribble out words and add his own, however that doesn't mean that one is refuting the idea that none can change the words of Allah. Rather, changing the words of Allah in the passage means that one cannot change what He has promised would occur.

One could easily change and distort texts by picking up a book and a pen, but they could not change the original true texts and revelations which is with Allah on al-Lawh al-Mahfudh (preserved tablet) since the speech of Allah is uncreated and no one can ever make it go lost completely. Removing the words from the books here on earth does not mean that God's words have become totally lost but lost here on earth only.

»Surah 5:48«
And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed

The Qur'an is the protector of the Gospel and Torah. But which Gospel and Torah? It is the original revelations sent to Jesus and Moses (peace be upon them) both and whatever of it survives today (e.g. prophecies of Muhammad peace be upon him to come) in the scriptures of the Christians and Jews today.

So, what is meant here by the Gospel is the original revealed Book before it got corrupted and altered. And there is no way to judge by it except by conferring the Qur'an which is a protector over it; for it bears witness to what Allah has revealed in it and exposes what people falsely entered into and removed from it.

Other commentators have stated that if the Christians judge by the Gospel then they are in a way accepting the Prophecies of Muhammad peace be upon him in the Gospel, which in turn leads them to accepting Islam.

The main problem with Christians who put forth these arguments is that they fail to identify and understand how the Qur'an uses the terms 'Torah' and 'Gospel' in the Qur'an. When the Qur'an talks about the Torah and Gospel, one of its intentions is to speak about the original revelations sent to Moses and Jesus peace be upon them both respectively. Sometimes the Qur'an or authentic hadith might appear to be speaking about the Torah and Gospel, which Jews and Christians refer to.

How do we understand those verses in light of other verses in the Qur'an that state the Torah was a meant as a guide in the past prior to the Qur'an and not before...

»Surah 11:17«
Prior to this (Quran), the book of Moses served as a guide, and was a blessing

»Surah 46:12«
Prior to this, the book of Moses was the guide and mercy. This book, (the Qur'an) is in the Arabic language and it confirms and validates (the book of Moses).

This means that before the Qur'an, there was the Book of Musa, the Tawrah.

(a guidance and a mercy) This means that Allah, the Exalted, revealed it to that Ummah as a leader for them and a guide for them to follow, as a mercy from Allah upon them. Therefore, whoever believed in it with true faith, then it would lead him to believe in the Qur'an as well. For this reason Allah said,

(they believe therein) Then Allah, the Exalted, threatens those who reject the Qur'an, or any part of it, by saying,

(but those of the sects that reject it, the Fire will be their promised meeting place.) This is directed towards everyone on the face of the earth who disbelieves in the Qur'an, whether they are idolators, disbelievers, People of the Scripture, or other sects from the descendants of Adam.

We see that the Torah was meant as a guide for the people of Prophet Moses's (peace be upon him) time. However, now it is the Qur'an, which is the guide that all mankind must follow...

Surah 18: 27: And recite, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord. There is no changer of His words, and never will you find in other than Him a refuge.
This last surah says you can't change Allah's words. So its a wonder how many Muslims claim Paul and latter day Christians changed his words? Remember Christianity was almost 700 years old when this verse was revealed.

»Surah 6:115«

The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all. S. 6:115


It seems quite clear just from reading the context alone that what is meant by "none change His words" is that no one could stop Allah's promises from being fulfilled. Reading Surah 6:115 alone makes that very clear.

Anyone could simply pick up a Qur'an and grab a pen and scribble out words and add his own, however that doesn't mean that one is refuting the idea that none can change the words of Allah. Rather, changing the words of Allah in the passage means that one cannot change what He has promised would occur.

One could easily change and distort texts by picking up a book and a pen, but they could not change the original true texts and revelations which is with Allah on al-Lawh al-Mahfudh (preserved tablet) since the speech of Allah is uncreated and no one can ever make it go lost completely. Removing the words from the books here on earth does not mean that God's words have become totally lost but lost here on earth only.

> one simple question for you here
* Do you believe Quran to be word of God Almighty? If not Then why do you go into believing those verses ??

aminusanti:
I think u r mixing things up here..
If u can go back nd read my previous posts i already explain all this...
° the mary this verse is talking about was the mother of jesus and her fathers name was also Imram

° the 1st mary which was aaron and moses sister their fathers name was also imran and they live in different time period with mary mother of jesus

Oh! Let me get this straight. So Miriam (Moses sister) had a father called Imran. Mary (Mother of Jesus) also had a father called Imran. But Allah called Mary (mother of Jesus) Aaron's sister (repeatedly) only because she was a pious woman like Aaron the sister of Miriam (and also sister of moses). And is there any other source that backs the claim that Mary's father was Imran? Let me guess! No! Just the Koran. And that's enough for you. Now let me highlight some problems in your claim. First, I will quote the Hadith u quoted earlier.
Sahih Muslim 5326--"Mughira b. Shuba reported: When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me: You read 'O sister of Harun ["Aaron"]' (i.e. Hadrat Maryam) in the Qur'an, whereas Moses was born much before Jesus. When I came back to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) I asked him about that, whereupon he said: The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostles and pious persons who had gone before them."
Problem 1: The idea of calling a person "sister of" because she is from the family of a pious and righteous person was only done once in both the Bible and the Koran. There is absolutely no record of this practice in ancient Israel. "Son of", or " daughter of", was more common.
Problem 2: from the Hadith, the Christians of Najran didn't know this practice, because if they did, they wouldn't bring it to the Shuba dude to question him. So how come Christians didn't know of this practice?
Problem 3: even the Shuba dude didn't know of this practice that's why he brought it to Muhammad for better understanding.
So in conclusion: Christians didn't know this practice, Muslims didn't know this practice, just Muhammad.
Finally, Finally! Aaron and Moses had a father called Imran and a sister called Miriam. Miriam the mother of Jesus also had a father called Imran. And the Koran found it convenient to call Miriam the mother of Jesus sister of Aaron who's father was also Imran because she was a pious person like Aaron. Wow

ilynem:
Oh! Let me get this straight. So Miriam (Moses sister) had a father called Imran. Mary (Mother of Jesus) also had a father called Imran.

naming descendants on the basis of past revered personalities has always been common practice and is often enshrined in tradition. Whether this be Mary, Moses, Aaron, John, Mark, Matthew, Luke, Paul, or Muhammad, Ayesha, Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali (etc). There is no reason why Mary could not have a father by the name of Imran or why Mary's name was not kept because of the reverence for the sister of Prophet Moses. (pbuh) Similarly two individuals who bear the same name each having a father with the same name does not imply that they are therefore, the same individuals.

Get this correct pls
*Father of Mary sister of moses and aaron in Bible=Amran(imran)

*Father of Mary sister of moses and aaron in Quran=Non

*Father of Mary jesus mother in d Bible= Non

*Father of Mary jesus mother in d Quran= Imran(amran)

But Allah called Mary (mother of Jesus) Aaron's sister (repeatedly) only because she was a pious woman like Aaron the sister of Miriam (and also sister of moses).

YES

And is there any other source that backs the claim that Mary's father was Imran? Let me guess! No! Just the Koran. And that's enough for you.

If you have problem accepting whats in Quran then why dnt u provide us the name of mary`s father from your scriptures (bible) or any source?? I guess she is an important icon in ur religion.

This your arguement is similar to the one of Pharaoh and Haman...read here and see how the quran correct the error in ur book (bible)

https://www.google.com.ng/amp/s/invitation2islam./2009/03/25/how-the-qur%25E2%2580%2599an-corrected-the-errors-of-the-bible/amp/

Now let me highlight some problems in your claim. First, I will quote the Hadith u quoted earlier.
Sahih Muslim 5326--"Mughira b. Shuba reported: When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me: You read 'O sister of Harun ["Aaron"]' (i.e. Hadrat Maryam) in the Qur'an, whereas Moses was born much before Jesus. When I came back to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) I asked him about that, whereupon he said: The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostles and pious persons who had gone before them."

Problem 1: The idea of calling a person "sister of" because she is from the family of a pious and righteous person was only done once in both the Bible and the Koran. There is absolutely no record of this practice in ancient Israel. "Son of", or " daughter of", was more common.

Lol..how is dis a problem?? so, re u saying if something is only mentioned once is a problem? And u got no problem with "son of & daughter of" huh?? Ok well done! Then how about "brother of"??

QURAN: >26:106
"Behold, their brother Noah said to them: "Will you not fear (God)?"

QURAN:> 011:050
"And to Ad (We sent) their brother Hud. He said: O my people! serve God, you have no god other than He; you are nothing but forgers (of lies)"

Even the Bible is familiar with elective spiritual relationships.

BIBLE > Mark 3:35
"Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."
Do u have problem with d verse above and how many time was it mentioned? And is it brother n sister by lineage or by faith?

Luke 1:5
"There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron (Greek: Thugater), and her name was Elisabeth"
( is Elisabeth daughter by faith or lineage)

Problem 2: from the Hadith, the Christians of Najran didn't know this practice, because if they did, they wouldn't bring it to the Shuba dude to question him. So how come Christians didn't know of this practice?

he said: The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostles and pious persons who had gone before them."

Are you saying all xtians from najran(syria) at that time most know that tradition??

Problem 3: even the Shuba dude didn't know of this practice that's why he brought it to Muhammad for better understanding.

read n answer d above..

So in conclusion: Christians didn't know this practice, Muslims didn't know this practice, just Muhammad.

u r just ignorant of dis but pple that knw practice it. If u hv a muslim friend u can ask they might know it, especially d hausa tribe they r very much familiar with that practice..

Finally, Finally! Aaron and Moses had a father called Imran and a sister called Miriam. Miriam the mother of Jesus also had a father called Imran. And the Koran found it convenient to call Miriam the mother of Jesus sister of Aaron who's father was also Imran because she was a pious person like Aaron. Wow

Refer to my answers above.

aminusanti:
naming descendants on the basis of past revered personalities has always been common practice and is often enshrined in tradition. Whether this be Mary, Moses, Aaron, John, Mark, Matthew, Luke, Paul, or Muhammad, Ayesha, Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali (etc). There is no reason why Mary could not have a father by the name of Imran or why Mary's name was not kept because of the reverence for the sister of Prophet Moses. (pbuh) Similarly two individuals who bear the same name each having a father with the same name does not imply that they are therefore, the same individuals.

Get this correct pls
*Father of Mary sister of moses and aaron in Bible=Amran(imran)

*Father of Mary sister of moses and aaron in Quran=Non

*Father of Mary jesus mother in d Bible= Non

*Father of Mary jesus mother in d Quran= Imran(amran)


YES


If you have problem accepting whats in Quran then why dnt u provide us the name of mary`s father from your scriptures (bible) or any source?? I guess she is an important icon in ur religion.

This your arguement is similar to the one of Pharaoh and Haman...read here and see how the quran correct the error in ur book (bible)

https://www.google.com.ng/amp/s/invitation2islam./2009/03/25/how-the-qur%25E2%2580%2599an-corrected-the-errors-of-the-bible/amp/

Lol..how is dis a problem?? so, re u saying if something is only mentioned once is a problem? And u got no problem with "son of & daughter of" huh?? Ok well done! Then how about "brother of"??

QURAN: >26:106
"Behold, their brother Noah said to them: "Will you not fear (God)?"

QURAN:> 011:050
"And to Ad (We sent) their brother Hud. He said: O my people! serve God, you have no god other than He; you are nothing but forgers (of lies)"

Even the Bible is familiar with elective spiritual relationships.

BIBLE > Mark 3:35
"Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."
Do u have problem with d verse above and how many time was it mentioned? And is it brother n sister by lineage or by faith?

Luke 1:5
"There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron (Greek: Thugater), and her name was Elisabeth"
( is Elisabeth daughter by faith or lineage)



he said: The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostles and pious persons who had gone before them."

Are you saying all xtians from najran(syria) at that time most know that tradition??

read n answer d above..
u r just ignorant of dis but pple that knw practice it. If u hv a muslim friend u can ask they might know it, especially d hausa tribe they r very much familiar with that practice..
Refer to my answers above.

We can continue to go back and forth. But I can see you actually believe what you are saying. Me on the other hand, I refuse to believe that there were two Marys with both having Imran as their father and then one Mary being called the sister of the other Mary's brother simply cuz he was a pious man. That's too much of a coincidence for me with this act never repeated again I. The Bible or the Koran.
And the Bible recorded Miriam and Aaron's father in exodus 6:20 and his name is Amran.
I put up my argument that Mary's father is Heli and she's from the tribe of Judah but you dismissed it because it's from the Bible and not the Koran.
Finally, that link you sent me on Haman is total hogwash. No record, I repeat, no record of Haman has been found in Egyptian histories. Take a look at that art they Claimed is in Australian museum. Does that look like Egyptian art to you? Don't believe everything you see on the internet sir. Koran correcting Bible errors? I laugh. God bless you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

ilynem:
We can continue to go back and forth. But I can see you actually believe what you are saying. Me on the other hand, I refuse to believe that there were two Marys with both having Imran as their father and then one Mary being called the sister of the other Mary's brother simply cuz he was a pious man. That's too much of a coincidence for me with this act never repeated again I. The Bible or the Koran.
And the Bible recorded Miriam and Aaron's father in exodus 6:20 and his name is Amran.
I put up my argument that Mary's father is Heli and she's from the tribe of Judah but you dismissed it because it's from the Bible and not the Koran.
Finally, that link you sent me on Haman is total hogwash. No record, I repeat, no record of Haman has been found in Egyptian histories. Take a look at that art they Claimed is in Australian museum. Does that look like Egyptian art to you? Don't believe everything you see on the internet sir. Koran correcting Bible errors? I laugh. God bless you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

My friend you r not here for any facts and I doubt much if you are reading what I was posting all these while. I just dnt know why u r deliberately ignoring n twisting words here!
U are not providing any proof to back ur claims and never attempt to answer my queries d (same old tricks).. I dnt have to go about xplaining things to u here bcus u are programmed to believe the way u are believing whether the proof is clear as day you wont believe...for any sincere xtian out there pls kindly differentiate these two tradition (sister of) that My Oga here is trying to explain

Sura 19:27-28

"O sister of Aaron, thy father was not a man of evil, nor your mother a woman unchaste!"
--

BIBLE > Mark 3:35
"Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother"

aminusanti:
My friend you r not here for any facts and I doubt much if you are reading what I was posting all these while. I just dnt know why u r deliberately ignoring n twisting words here!
U are not providing any proof to back ur claims and never attempt to answer my queries d (same old tricks).. I dnt have to go about xplaining things to u here bcus u are programmed to believe the way u are believing whether the proof is clear as day you wont believe...for any sincere xtian out there pls kindly differentiate these two tradition (sister of) that My Oga here is trying to explain

Sura 19:27-28

"O sister of Aaron, thy father was not a man of evil, nor your mother a woman unchaste!"
--

BIBLE > Mark 3:35
"Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother"

Lol. You see, I pay very little mind to muslims who quote the Bible because most of you quote it out of context. If I attempt to explain that passage to you, I will just open a Pandora's box and we will start to argue on the divinity of Jesus which I am trying to avoid. But have it in mind that that verse is absolutely different from the one quoted in the Koran. They aren't even close to having same meaning. And no! I am not programmed to believing one thing. It might surprise you but I have tried a lot of beliefs including Islam. I don't swallow everything I hear, I investigate my faith. And that investigation has led me to Christianity. The meaning of Koran means " recite", right? That's why you lot can really not understand the Bible. Cuz it takes a deeper understanding, something deeper than just reciting verses to understand. When you are ready my friend, I will show you the power of the gospel. But I have to commend your maturity here on Nairaland and I sincerely do admire you. I just wish you were more open minded.