₦airaland Forum

Kay17:
Does it?

Doesn't it ?

If it doesn't , what then do you BELIEVE it is ?

KingEbukasBlog :
According to Stephen Hawking , a renowned cosmologist , physical laws predict the universe had a beginning . He also gave his reasons why the universe indeed has a beginning . I expect you to give your reasons why his reasons for a finite universe are false . Enough of the red herrings .

The same renowned cosmologist, thinks there was nothing before the universe and that time began with the universe at big bang and progressed with expansion.
Do you also agree with this?

The cosmological argument is just a theory, because there is no proof the universe has a beginning for a fact.
Even if you want to go by this logic, then why are you rejecting Hawking's view on time before the universe and accepting only his view on the beginning of the universe. Or do you have a valid reason for this?

KingEbukasBlog:
1. An eternal universe precludes the existence of God .

A cornucopia of scientific evidences show that the universe has a beginning , anything outside this is a belief . Many atheists strongly believe that science could be wrong about our universe having a beginning . Prior to the discovery of so many remarkable evidences supporting a finite universe , ancient atheists were intransigent of their view of an eternal universe . They believed that a finite universe would be an irrefragable evidence that a creator does exist but an eternal universe would strongly suggest that no creator exist . But how true is this view ? Let's look at the three popular concepts of creation :

A. Creatio ex nihilo : From a materialistic point of view , this is the creation of the universe out of utter nothingness . God as an eternal immaterial being caused the existence of our material universe . This concept of creation suggests the existence of a finite universe .

B. Creatio ex deo : For me , creatio ex nihilo is a subset of creatio ex deo but from a non-materialistic point of view . What is seen as nothingness is actually immaterial and the creation of everything material was done out of being of God .

C. Creatio ex materia : This is creation out of some pre-existent, eternal matter . Now eternal matter posits non contingency and thus necessary existence but since God remains supreme and omnipotent , necessary beings in this case eternal matter still depend on the existence of God . And God orchestrated the creation of the universe from eternal matter .

Now clearly , we can see the third concept of creation - creatio ex materia - clearly confutes the belief that an eternal universe or matter disproves the existence of God . Many ancient philosophers and modern day theologians have supported this view and have also presented arguments against creatio ex nihilo .

2. The universe came out of nothingness uncaused :

This is utterly stupid and idiotic . I wonder how any sane rational mind would even subscribe to this .

3. The proliferation of atheists in the twenty-first century signals the death of theistic religions

Atheists have this bold belief that the growth of atheism in few European countries would suppress the growth of theistic religious groups in the future . This is so not true ; not just that , its also a blatant display of ignorance .

During the communists regime in the 20th century which was extremely rabid and intolerant of religious beliefs and affiliation , atheists were a potent dominant group . The communist's stratagem to curb the growth of theistic religious groups was the incessant sanguinary campaigns against these religious groups and imposing atheism on the masses - this ended the lives of close to 250 million people . Despite this , religious groups grew massively and after the end of most communist regimes in states like the Soviet Union , the number of atheists unsurprisingly plummeted . Currently just between 2 to 10 percent of world's population are atheists with a fewer number of people as convinced atheists .

Extrapolations have been made from the current stats on world populations that adherents of theistic religions would dwarf religious and irreligious atheists in population by 2050 .

4. God is a three-dimensional being , a facsimile of a fatherly figure , who lives in the clouds

There is a concept called anthropomorphism - this involves the use of human-like characteristics to depict God . Hebrew writers of the bible have explained that the use of anthropomorphism in the bible is to make God comprehensible to the human reader . This means that phrases like 'The Hand of God' , the 'finger of God' have been said to be metaphorical .

Ancient Greek Philosopher Xenophanes severely criticized the use of anthropomorphism in the depiction of God . He said :

But if cattle and horses and lions had hands
or could paint with their hands and create works such as men do,
horses like horses and cattle like cattle
also would depict the gods' shapes and make their bodies
of such a sort as the form they themselves have.
...
Ethiopians say that their gods are snub–nosed and black
Thracians that they are pale and red-haired.
...
"One god, greatest among gods and humans,
like mortals neither in form nor in thought."
"But mortals think that the gods are born
and have the mortals' own clothes and voice and form."

All Xenophanes was trying to say that God does not resemble humans in mind or in form , isn't born and does not die and is not a three dimensional being , therefore he sees not the need for the use of anthropomorphism .

And for God living in the clouds : why would an eternal non-three dimensional immaterial being who created the universe and everything in it choose to live in the clouds on earth ? Why would God , the source/container of all reality , live in the cloud ? How is that even possible ?


5. God came from Nothing , and since He did , why couldn't the universe simply have started itself?

God is simply uncaused , eternal , beginingless - having no creator , non contingent , necessarily existing . God did not come from Nothing like most atheists assume . Why couldn't the universe simply have started itself ? A logical question here : can X create X ? Of course not . But it is rational to accept that A created B or C created D etc . It is very illogical to assume that something can create itself ( a logical absurdity ) .

Besides , the universe is a contingent being which obviously relies on non contingency to exist .

6. Faith and belief are useless and those who have them have sinister tendencies .

First , being an atheist does not make faith and belief disappear - its utterly ludicrous to even assume such . Atheism simply is the belief God does not exist or the disbelief in the existence of God , this does not mean this disbelief extends to every aspect of one's life . Ignorant modern atheists denigrate religion because they think its simply a belief system . Some religions are non theistic and so atheists can be part of these religions . Example of non theistic religions include : Confucianism , Unitarian Universalism , Buddhism , Raelism etc . Popular atheists like Steve Jobs and Sir Tim Berners -Lee were religious atheists thus accepting the tenets (beliefs) of those religions as true .

Secondly , according to researches , belief is important when undergoing a change of destructive habits like alcoholism . Belief is also important in sports . Beliefs strengthen the reliance and trust in the team's tactical system during games .

Thirdly , world's best researcher on success Napoleon Hill - a deist - noted in his book 'Think and Grow Rich' that having faith and belief are important steps towards riches . He interviewed 50,000 successful people who admitted that faith helped them reach the highest levels of excellence in their various fields . Are you seemingly an inveterate smoker , womanizer etc who wants to change ? Do you want to gain riches ? Do you need a reason to persist in your pursuit of excellence ? Then you need faith and belief !

Here are various descriptions of Faith by Napoleon Hill :

a. Faith is the eternal elixir which gives life , power and action to the impulse of thought

b. Faith is the starting point of all accumulation of riches

c. Faith is the only known antidote of Failure

d. Faith is the only agency through which the cosmic power of Infinite Intelligence (God) can be harnessed and used .


Currently , the world's most affluent religion is Christianity which emphasizes strongly on imbibing faith habits and working on the principles of faith . Christians own 56.4 percent of the world's wealth . While atheist nations like North Korea who are intolerant of religious beliefs and practices theistic or non theistic live in abject poverty ( more than half of North Koreans are extremely poor) .

Faith and belief are useless right ?


Do you know any idiotic inane utterly ridiculous beliefs that atheists have ? Share them , let's deride the foolishness of those beliefs .

Your 5th point presents an irreconcilable paradox. You say God is uncaused and simply exists, the same argument can be applied to th3 universe. infact there are some philosophies that see God and the universe as one and the same. Here God must be caused as well.

AmunaNo1:
Your 5th point presents an irreconcilable paradox. You say God is uncaused and simply exists, the same argument can be applied to th3 universe. infact there are some philosophies that see God and the universe as one and the same. Here God must be caused as well.

An eternal universe does not preclude the existence of the God . Its right there in the OP . That's why I called it a ridiculous belief . There are so many theologians that believe that the universe is eternal while rejecting a finite universe .

4kings:
The same renowned cosmologist, thinks there was nothing before the universe and that time began with the universe at big bang and progressed with expansion.
Do you also agree with this?

Of course why not ?

The cosmological argument is just a theory, because there is no proof the universe has a beginning for a fact.

According to Hawking , the physical laws predict the universe had a beginning why is he wrong ? Hawking also mentioned reasons why there universe does not existing from an infinite past , can you state why the reasons he gave are wrong ?

Even if you want to go by this logic, then why are you rejecting Hawking's view on time before the universe and accepting only his view on the beginning of the universe. Or do you have a valid reason for this?

I never said I rejected Hawking view that the universe was formed from nothing

KingEbukasBlog:
Of course why not ?



According to Hawking , the physical laws predict the universe had a beginning why is he wrong ? Hawking also mentioned reasons why there universe does not existing from an infinite past , can you state why the reasons he gave are wrong ?



I never said I rejected Hawking view that the universe was formed from nothing

Do you know the implication is that the universe could have not been as a result of a contingent action or a causal entity as posited by the kalam cosmological argument for God, because Time began at singularity and there is no time before it.

4kings:
Do you know the implication is that the universe could have not been as a result of a contingent action or a causal entity as posited by the kalam cosmological argument for God, because Time began at singularity and there is no time before it.

Like I told Kay17 , there are two known theories of time : A and B theory of time . The B theory of time sees time like an illusion - no past , present or future , just timelessness . So from the B-theory of time , this is not a conundrum .

But if you insist that it is then the logical answer is that God become temporal after creating the universe and is timeless without it . I have said this so many times . The creation of the universe is an event that initiated time - I don't see this as a problem though .

KingEbukasBlog:
Like I told Kay17 , there are two known theories of time : A and B theory of time . The B theory of time sees time like an illusion - no past , present or future , just timelessness . So from the B-theory of time , this is not a conundrum .

But if you insist that it is then the logical answer is that God become temporal after creating the universe and is timeless without it . I have said this so many times . The creation of the universe is an event that initiated time - I don't see this as a problem though .

Correct me if i'm wrong, but from what i've read about this B-theory so far, i don't see how it support your point as the theory leans towards eternalism.
The cosmological argument first postulation is that: Everything that begins to exist has a cause, right?
Going by the concept of the B-theory, the universe never began to exist, rather past, present and future events are tied together at the same "time".
Though I've not read extensively on this theory, but i think this theory is more philosophical than scientific since there is no way its postulations can be tested empirically unless it is observed outside of time and space.

Before i go on can you explain what you mean by this, so i don't get the wrong idea:

God become temporal after creating the universe and is timeless without it .

4kings:
Before i go on can you explain what you mean by this, so i don't get the wrong idea:

God began a relationship with time when the universe was caused to exist .

More contributions please

KingEbukasBlog:
More contributions please

You have not still explained how the Universe came to being without the passage of time from when it was non existent to when it began to exist.

Some atheists​ believe faith takes away from science or vice versa.
But take a look at what James M. Tour (Winner of scientist of the year 2013) says:


"I build molecules for a living, I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."


James M. Tour


James M. Tour is a synthetic organic chemist, specializing in nanotechnology. Dr. Tour is the T. T. and W. F. Chao Professor of Chemistry, Professor of Materials Science and NanoEngineering, and Professor of Computer Science at Rice University in Houston, Texas, United States. Source: wiki

Kay17:
You have not still explained how the Universe came to being without the passage of time from when it was non existent to when it began to exist.

But I answered this question . I told you that you can choose Sir Isaac Newton's explanation which is that God endureth forever with the Newtonian absolute time (God has been existing for an infinite time and in infinite space prior to the existence of anything material or physical ) .

There's also the concept of metaphysical time or God's time which allows God to create a material universe ex nihilo in which time is a constituent .

Kay17 but why don't you want me to ask questions about your position as an atheist ? If you are bold and confident about your position then there is nothing to fear . Or does being an atheist make you immune to criticism or questioning ? Or are you using criticism of the theist's position to protect your beliefs as an atheist?

Kay17:
You have not still explained how the Universe came to being without the passage of time from when it was non existent to when it began to exist.

time itself is a dimension of our universe, in this aspect your question is not logical

KingEbukasBlog:
But I answered this question . I told you that you can choose Sir Isaac Newton's explanation which is that God endureth forever with the Newtonian absolute time (God has been existing for an infinite time and in infinite space prior to the existence of anything material or physical ) .

There's also the concept of metaphysical time or God's time which allows God to create a material universe ex nihilo in which time is a constituent .

Is the metaphysical time of God real or a hypothetical?

I don't understand how you expect me to elect your position. Which are the positions do you support?

KingEbukasBlog:
Kay17 but why don't you want me to ask questions about your position as an atheist ? If you are bold and confident about your position then there is nothing to fear . Or does being an atheist make you immune to criticism or questioning ? Or are you using criticism of the theist's position to protect your beliefs as an atheist?

I never said such

DoctorAlien:
Assuming he did not bring the money, would the land have been bought?

If I give a friend $100 and he uses it to buy a phone for me from Aliexpress: who bought the phone?

The last paragraph of your post reveals your puerile sense of logic. You need to read.

As far as AliExpress (who would have actual records of the transaction) are concerned, your friend bought the phone.

If you are looking at it from a legal standpoint, it would be stated that your friend bought the phone on your behalf. If the question of the ownership of the phone arises, it could be you (IF you can prove to the court that you did give your friend money to get the phone for you) but if the question of who actually bought the phone arises, then it's your friend.

KingEbukasBlog:
1. An eternal universe precludes the existence of God .

A cornucopia of scientific evidences show that the universe has a beginning , anything outside this is a belief . Many atheists strongly believe that science could be wrong about our universe having a beginning . Prior to the discovery of so many remarkable evidences supporting a finite universe , ancient atheists were intransigent of their view of an eternal universe . They believed that a finite universe would be an irrefragable evidence that a creator does exist but an eternal universe would strongly suggest that no creator exist . But how true is this view ? Let's look at the three popular concepts of creation :

A. Creatio ex nihilo : From a materialistic point of view , this is the creation of the universe out of utter nothingness . God as an eternal immaterial being caused the existence of our material universe . This concept of creation suggests the existence of a finite universe .

B. Creatio ex deo : For me , creatio ex nihilo is a subset of creatio ex deo but from a non-materialistic point of view . What is seen as nothingness is actually immaterial and the creation of everything material was done out of being of God .

C. Creatio ex materia : This is creation out of some pre-existent, eternal matter . Now eternal matter posits non contingency and thus necessary existence but since God remains supreme and omnipotent , necessary beings in this case eternal matter still depend on the existence of God . And God orchestrated the creation of the universe from eternal matter .

Now clearly , we can see the third concept of creation - creatio ex materia - clearly confutes the belief that an eternal universe or matter disproves the existence of God . Many ancient philosophers and modern day theologians have supported this view and have also presented arguments against creatio ex nihilo .

2. The universe came out of nothingness uncaused :

This is utterly stupid and idiotic . I wonder how any sane rational mind would even subscribe to this .

3. The proliferation of atheists in the twenty-first century signals the death of theistic religions

Atheists have this bold belief that the growth of atheism in few European countries would suppress the growth of theistic religious groups in the future . This is so not true ; not just that , its also a blatant display of ignorance .

During the communists regime in the 20th century which was extremely rabid and intolerant of religious beliefs and affiliation , atheists were a potent dominant group . The communist's stratagem to curb the growth of theistic religious groups was the incessant sanguinary campaigns against these religious groups and imposing atheism on the masses - this ended the lives of close to 250 million people . Despite this , religious groups grew massively and after the end of most communist regimes in states like the Soviet Union , the number of atheists unsurprisingly plummeted . Currently just between 2 to 10 percent of world's population are atheists with a fewer number of people as convinced atheists .

Extrapolations have been made from the current stats on world populations that adherents of theistic religions would dwarf religious and irreligious atheists in population by 2050 .

4. God is a three-dimensional being , a facsimile of a fatherly figure , who lives in the clouds

There is a concept called anthropomorphism - this involves the use of human-like characteristics to depict God . Hebrew writers of the bible have explained that the use of anthropomorphism in the bible is to make God comprehensible to the human reader . This means that phrases like 'The Hand of God' , the 'finger of God' have been said to be metaphorical .

Ancient Greek Philosopher Xenophanes severely criticized the use of anthropomorphism in the depiction of God . He said :

But if cattle and horses and lions had hands
or could paint with their hands and create works such as men do,
horses like horses and cattle like cattle
also would depict the gods' shapes and make their bodies
of such a sort as the form they themselves have.
...
Ethiopians say that their gods are snub–nosed and black
Thracians that they are pale and red-haired.
...
"One god, greatest among gods and humans,
like mortals neither in form nor in thought."
"But mortals think that the gods are born
and have the mortals' own clothes and voice and form."

All Xenophanes was trying to say that God does not resemble humans in mind or in form , isn't born and does not die and is not a three dimensional being , therefore he sees not the need for the use of anthropomorphism .

And for God living in the clouds : why would an eternal non-three dimensional immaterial being who created the universe and everything in it choose to live in the clouds on earth ? Why would God , the source/container of all reality , live in the cloud ? How is that even possible ?


5. God came from Nothing , and since He did , why couldn't the universe simply have started itself?

God is simply uncaused , eternal , beginingless - having no creator , non contingent , necessarily existing . God did not come from Nothing like most atheists assume . Why couldn't the universe simply have started itself ? A logical question here : can X create X ? Of course not . But it is rational to accept that A created B or C created D etc . It is very illogical to assume that something can create itself ( a logical absurdity ) .

Besides , the universe is a contingent being which obviously relies on non contingency to exist .

6. Faith and belief are useless and those who have them have sinister tendencies .

First , being an atheist does not make faith and belief disappear - its utterly ludicrous to even assume such . Atheism simply is the belief God does not exist or the disbelief in the existence of God , this does not mean this disbelief extends to every aspect of one's life . Ignorant modern atheists denigrate religion because they think its simply a belief system . Some religions are non theistic and so atheists can be part of these religions . Example of non theistic religions include : Confucianism , Unitarian Universalism , Buddhism , Raelism etc . Popular atheists like Steve Jobs and Sir Tim Berners -Lee were religious atheists thus accepting the tenets (beliefs) of those religions as true .

Secondly , according to researches , belief is important when undergoing a change of destructive habits like alcoholism . Belief is also important in sports . Beliefs strengthen the reliance and trust in the team's tactical system during games .

Thirdly , world's best researcher on success Napoleon Hill - a deist - noted in his book 'Think and Grow Rich' that having faith and belief are important steps towards riches . He interviewed 50,000 successful people who admitted that faith helped them reach the highest levels of excellence in their various fields . Are you seemingly an inveterate smoker , womanizer etc who wants to change ? Do you want to gain riches ? Do you need a reason to persist in your pursuit of excellence ? Then you need faith and belief !

Here are various descriptions of Faith by Napoleon Hill :

a. Faith is the eternal elixir which gives life , power and action to the impulse of thought

b. Faith is the starting point of all accumulation of riches

c. Faith is the only known antidote of Failure

d. Faith is the only agency through which the cosmic power of Infinite Intelligence (God) can be harnessed and used .


Currently , the world's most affluent religion is Christianity which emphasizes strongly on imbibing faith habits and working on the principles of faith . Christians own 56.4 percent of the world's wealth . While atheist nations like North Korea who are intolerant of religious beliefs and practices theistic or non theistic live in abject poverty ( more than half of North Koreans are extremely poor) .

Faith and belief are useless right ?


Do you know any idiotic inane utterly ridiculous beliefs that atheists have ? Share them , let's deride the foolishness of those beliefs .

I haven't read your post, since I'm confident it's a group of trash words.

It was your colonial masters who used their fantasy religion to colonize your ancestors.

Proved us one concrete evidence that support God existence? You will not answer it, since there is no answer.

Hati13:
I haven't read your post, since I'm confident it's a group of trash words.

It was your colonial masters who used their fantasy religion to colonize your ancestors.

Proved us one concrete evidence that support God existence? You will not answer it, since there is no answer.

There is no evidence for God yet atheists are turning to theists everyday ?

KingEbukasBlog:
There is no evidence for God yet atheists are turning to theists everyday ?

If there is no evidence for the existence of God, then why do you believe?

Science is questioning religion just like it question other disciplines. If there is God, then there must be evidence. The time where believing in something without evidences is gone.

Hati13:
If there is no evidence for the existence of God, then why do you believe?

There are so many evidences for God .

Science is questioning religion just like it question other disciplines. If there is God, then there must be evidence. The time where believing in something without evidences is gone.

Science questions atheism . Deists use science , logic and reason to prove God's existence .

KingEbukasBlog:
Science questions atheism . Deists use science , logic and reason to prove God's existence .

What is God and how have the deist proven his existence?

dalaman:
What is God and how have the deist proven his existence?

If you don't know who God is , how are you gona know how his existence was proven ?

KingEbukasBlog:
If you don't know who God is , how are you gona know how his existence was proven ?

Thats why am asking you. Just tell me what God is and how the deist have proven his existence. It's quite simple.

dalaman:
Thats why am asking you. Just tell me what God is and how the deist have proven his existence. It's quite simple.

What if I lie to you ? How would you know I mean since you don't know who God is . I could provide false evidence to deceive you .

KingEbukasBlog:
What if I lie to you ? How would you know I mean since you don't know who God is . I could provide false evidence to deceive you .

I don't expect you to lie to me. I want you to tell me what God is and how the deist have proven his existence.

dalaman:
I don't expect you to lie to me. I want you to tell me what God is and how the deist have proven his existence.

But hold on , aint you an ATHEIST ? As an atheist , you reject the existence of God . Who is that whom you reject ?

KingEbukasBlog:
But hold on , aint you an ATHEIST ? As an atheist , you reject the existence of God . Who is that whom you reject ?

Just tell me what God is and how the deist have proven it's existence and I'll answer your question.

dalaman:
Just tell me what God is and how the deist have proven it's existence and I'll answer your question.

Well as an atheist who is seeking to be compelled by the proof of God's existence should at least tell us who you think God is since you reject it him

KingEbukasBlog:
But hold on , aint you an ATHEIST ? As an atheist , you reject the existence of God . Who is that whom you reject ?

Dodging games