italo:


Then why did the new covenant believers need Paul's handkerchief and Peter's shadow?

Because grace is in levels. That you carry the spirit of God doesnt mean you carry the same levels of grace. While Jesus was around, the apostles where known as disciples because you are a disciple to the one that teaches you the truth you dont know. When he left, they became apostles teaching another sets of disciples ....You don't expect their disciples to Carry the same amount of depth of the knowledge of God as themselves hence the handkerchiefs carried the excess grace ( authority) that they were yet to build up in themselves to places where such was needed.


The apostles and their disciples are not gracemates....So they can't do same mighty works

italo:


Wrong.

.

Oya, Interpret what you meant by your statement that the holy spirit said the church , catholic, is the foundation and pillar of truth

italo:


And you havent shown me where Jesus said "read the bible - genesis to revelation."


Still dodgin that one .

I don't remember stating that Jesus ordered us to read the bible back to back but be that as it may be , I would say that if Jesus found what was written condcerning him in the book, you have no choice but be about diligent study for Apostle Paul understood by book and also Daniel understood that the season of return was near by book


I would have agreed with you on image but for constant vigilance through the book and books

Until the book is opened destiny remains closed is one of my favourite quotes from a great servant of God

Themandator:



Because grace is in levels. That you carry the spirit of God doesnt mean you carry the same levels of grace. While Jesus was around, the apostles where known as disciples because you are a disciple to the one that teaches you the truth you dont know. When he left, they became apostles teaching another sets of disciples ....You don't expect their disciples to Carry the same amount of depth of the knowledge of God as themselves hence the handkerchiefs carried the excess grace ( authority) that they were yet to build up in themselves to places where such was needed.


The apostles and their disciples are not gracemates....So they can't do same mighty works

If you read those passages in context it doesn't talk about levels of Grace per say neither does it compare Paul or Peter with any of their disciples, those passages only point to the great miracles God did through them using MATERIAL OBJECTS.. No disciples of either was mentioned in the immediate context.. the passages definitely shows that God can do great things with material objects from special people...

Acts 19:11 And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.

acts 5: 12 Now many signs and wonders were done among the people by the hands of the apostles. And they were all together in Solomon’s Portico.13 None of the rest dared join them, but the people held them in high honor. 14 And more than ever believers were added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women, 15 so that they even carried out the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and pallets, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them. 16 The people also gathered from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all healed.

Themandator:



Oya, Interpret what you meant by your statement that the holy spirit said the church , catholic, is the foundation and pillar of truth






I don't remember stating that Jesus ordered us to read the bible back to back but be that as it may be , I would say that if Jesus found what was written condcerning him in the book, you have no choice but be about diligent study for Apostle Paul understood by book and also Daniel understood that the season of return was near by book


I would have agreed with you on image but for constant vigilance through the book and books

Until the book is opened destiny remains closed is one of my favourite quotes from a great servant of God

Here's a question for you.. Are images objectively or intrinsically sinful idolatrous or demonic??

Themandator:



Because grace is in levels. That you carry the spirit of God doesnt mean you carry the same levels of grace. While Jesus was around, the apostles where known as disciples because you are a disciple to the one that teaches you the truth you dont know. When he left, they became apostles teaching another sets of disciples ....You don't expect their disciples to Carry the same amount of depth of the knowledge of God as themselves hence the handkerchiefs carried the excess grace ( authority) that they were yet to build up in themselves to places where such was needed.

The apostles and their disciples are not gracemates....So they can't do same mighty works

1. Where did the bible tell you that Paul's handkerchief had more grace than those christians (who already had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit)?

2. What about handkerchiefs, oils and shadows of your pastor? Is it okay for you to use it?

Amberon:
Do you not understand what bowing in worship means. Why going round in circles. I already said this before.

Don't bow to any graven image
That's it

As simple as it is..
Even if its God himself being carved
Don't bow down to it..
Its idol worship

easymancfc:


Indeed, a Nigerian doesn't need a flag to know he Is a Nigerian,
A Catholic doesn't need images to know he Is a Catholic either..

Unbelievers don't believe in Jesus and honor his mother..

Muslims don't, pagans don't..

Speaking in tongues and miracles is not the only sign which can also be found in Catholicism..

the greater sign is love and unity.. (1 cor 13:1-13, Mat 5:14-17, John 17:20-21)

people who speak in tongues and work miracles still go to hell (mat 7:21-23)

you know people according to their way of life .. (mat 7:19-20)

you know good Catholics by their way of life not by statues... just like you know good Nigerians by them obeying good civic rules..
THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT WHEN YOU SEE A FLAG IT DOESN'T TELL YOU TOO THAT NIGERIANS ARE HERE..

AN EMBASSY, A SCHOOL, AND IN ALL THESE PLACES THE FLAG IS SALUTED...
AS FOR THE IGBO MAN, HE KNOWS HE IS IGBO. BUT PEOPLE WOULD KNOW HIM TO BE IGBO BY HIS CULTURE, FOOD, DRESSING, ETC WHICH ARE MATERIAL THINGS

and all these material things whether flag or dressing, or coat of arm.. THEY ARE RESPECTED

This an example of common sense(which is not common at all) Unfortunately many of our Protestant brothers lack it

easymancfc:


Here's a question for you.. Are images objectively or intrinsically sinful idolatrous or demonic??

This is a difficult one for me to answer but I will try and do justice to the question.

All images with cultural orientation are intrinsically demonic for every culture stems from a religion of a people which is ungodly and unchristian. Therefore it is sinful to have them in your homes and worship places as part of your beautification drive.


But images of nationalist like Dr. Azikiwe and Chief Obafemi erected in public places are neither sinful nor demonic for they have no link to cultural practices and are not purposed to be worshipped or prayed to... Images in this class have no spiritual connection or aspiration to be deified.

easymancfc:


If you read those passages in context it doesn't talk about levels of Grace per say neither does it compare Paul or Peter with any of their disciples, those passages only point to the great miracles God did through them using MATERIAL OBJECTS.. No disciples of either was mentioned in the immediate context.. the passages definitely shows that God can do great things with material objects from special people...

Acts 19:11 And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.

acts 5: 12 Now many signs and wonders were done among the people by the hands of the apostles. And they were all together in Solomon’s Portico.13 None of the rest dared join them, but the people held them in high honor. 14 And more than ever believers were added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women, 15 so that they even carried out the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and pallets, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them. 16 The people also gathered from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all healed.

Your fight is to prove that image is necessary but the point of departure is that while they used MATERIAL OBJECTS for demonstration you guys use it for worship or rather for praying by kneeling in front of them and making sentence prayers like herbalist do in their shrine were they have to have those funny images that they look at while making incantation

italo:


1. Where did the bible tell you that Paul's handkerchief had more grace than those christians (who already had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit)?

2. What about handkerchiefs, oils and shadows of your pastor? Is it okay for you to use it?

They had the indwelling but not yet matured in the knowledge of God and his ways as to fully understand that it was in them. They needed tangibles in other to relate with the new idea of God they found. If they had enough knowledge they would go home and mark according mark 16:17 but they didn't because they were yet baby Christians when they become sons they will not need handkerchiefs.

My pastor carries more grace than myself so , YES.

Themandator:



This is a difficult one for me to answer but I will try and do justice to the question.

All images with cultural orientation are intrinsically demonic for every culture stems from a religion of a people which is ungodly and unchristian. Therefore it is sinful to have them in your homes and worship places as part of your beautification drive.


But images of nationalist like Dr. Azikiwe and Chief Obafemi erected in public places are neither sinful nor demonic for they have no link to cultural practices and are not purposed to be worshipped or prayed to... Images in this class have no spiritual connection or aspiration to be deified.

images of Mary and the Saints are our own Christian heroes.. we have those images to remember and honor who they signify.. we don't worship or pray to the images but we respect and honor the ones they signify..

The church doesn't teach anyone to do incantations with the images.. but it does teach that we show respect because of whom they signify

IMAGES CANNOT BE INTRINSICALLY EVIL BECAUSE GOD COMMANDED IMAGES TO BE MADE.. IMAGES OF SERPENTS, OF CHERUBIMS, OF PALM CARVINGS, ETC..

WE HAVE TOLD YOU FOR THE THOUSANDTH TIME.. WE DON'T WORSHIP IMAGES... THOSE ARE YOUR "THOUGHTS" NOT OUR INTENT

Themandator:





Your fight is to prove that image is necessary but the point of departure is that while they used MATERIAL OBJECTS for demonstration you guys use it for worship or rather for praying by kneeling in front of them and making sentence prayers like herbalist do in their shrine were they have to have those funny images that they look at while making incantation

The point is.. those passages don't say what you think they say.. Peter was shown great honor.. and his shadow could heal people.. Paul's handerkerchief could heal people.. all these are material things statues are material things too and God could use them too just like he used Golden cherubims, bronze serpent etc

AGAIN WE WILL TELL YOU.. WE DON'T WORSHIP IMAGES.. BUT HONOR AND TREAT THEM WITH RESPECT BECAUSE OF WHOM THEY REPRESENT...

Themandator:


They had the indwelling but not yet matured in the knowledge of God and his ways as to fully understand that it was in them. They needed tangibles in other to relate with the new idea of God they found. If they had enough knowledge they would go home and mark according mark 16:17 but they didn't because they were yet baby Christians when they become sons they will not need handkerchiefs.

My pastor carries more grace than myself so , YES.

Then Sons don't need Elijah's mantle as some church did recently.. they don't need crusade or men of God to show them signs, because Mark 16 says the sign will follow them.. not them looking for signs from "men of God" we are all " men of God

Themandator:


They had the indwelling but not yet matured in the knowledge of God and his ways as to fully understand that it was in them. They needed tangibles in other to relate with the new idea of God they found. If they had enough knowledge they would go home and mark according mark 16:17 but they didn't because they were yet baby Christians when they become sons they will not need handkerchiefs.

Where did the bible tell you that they were baby christians, hence their need for handkerchief? Which verse?

Themandator:


My pastor carries more grace than myself so , YES.

What if your pastor prays over a picture, can you use the picture for a spiritual purpose, like you can use his handkerchief?

Smeago007:



Don't bow to any graven image
That's it

As simple as it is..
Even if its God himself being carved
Don't bow down to it..
Its idol worship

1. Do you know the difference between bowing to and bowing before.

2. Did Joshua worship idol in Joshua 7:6?

3. Do you think this lady below is kneeling to the bible...or kneeling before it?

Themandator:



Oya, Interpret what you meant by your statement that the holy spirit said the church , catholic, is the foundation and pillar of truth

The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. "The Church" is not you so called believers who preach millions of contradictory doctrines. The Church is the Catholic Church which was founded by Christ and begun at Pentecost. The Church wrote the NT and compiled and canonized the Bible in 382AD. The Church also has teachings that are passed down in its Sacred Tradition. So Sacred Scripture (Bible) and Sacred Tradition are parts of Catholic Church doctrine. None is superior or inferior.

Themandator:

I don't remember stating that Jesus ordered us to read the bible back to back but be that as it may be , I would say that if Jesus found what was written condcerning him in the book, you have no choice but be about diligent study for Apostle Paul understood by book and also Daniel understood that the season of return was near by book

But you said anything you dont find in the bible is demonic.

By your deficient logic, it is demonic to even have a bible.

italo:


1. Do you know the difference between bowing to and bowing before.

2. Did Joshua worship idol in Joshua 7:6?

3. Do you think this lady below is kneeling to the bible...or kneeling before it?

Craven image...
Research the word craven

Smeago007:



Craven image...
Research the word craven

You misread the question:


1. Do you know the difference between bowing to and bowing before.

2. Did Joshua worship idol in Joshua 7:6?

3. Do you think this lady below is[b] kneeling to[/b] the bible...or kneeling before it?

italo:

Where did the bible tell you that they were baby christians, hence their need for handkerchief? Which verse?


What if your pastor prays over a picture, can you use the picture for a spiritual purpose, like you can use his handkerchief?

He won't pray over a picture for the purpose of giving it out as an object to be knelt before during prayers as a kind of intermediary between man and God or to be gazed at ... He knows it is unscriptural to make a god or the likeness of it out of ordinary image when the original God lives in us ....That time he would have expended on that kind of silly prayer would be invested in preaching the truth of the indwelling of the holy spirit in believers .....So, the probability of that happening is practically non existent.

italo:


The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. "The Church" is not you so called believers who preach millions of contradictory doctrines. The Church is the Catholic Church which was founded by Christ and begun at Pentecost. The Church wrote the NT and compiled and canonized the Bible in 382AD. The Church also has teachings that are passed down in its Sacred Tradition. So Sacred Scripture (Bible) and Sacred Tradition are parts of Catholic Church doctrine. None is superior or inferior.


But you said anything you dont find in the bible is demonic.

By your deficient logic, it is demonic to even have a bible.

What do you mean by contradictory doctrines

Exactly what I've been trying to say.

Smeago007:



Don't bow to any graven image
That's it

As simple as it is..
Even if its God himself being carved
Don't bow down to it..
Its idol worship

Stone worshipper, no difference between you and Mohammedans who go to mecca to kiss a stone.

italo:


No. Time for you to worship your pastor, book and oil.

Themandator:

He won't pray over a picture for the purpose of giving it out as an object to be knelt before during prayers as a kind of intermediary between man and God or to be gazed at ... He knows it is unscriptural to make a god or the likeness of it out of ordinary image when the original God lives in us ....That time he would have expended on that kind of silly prayer would be invested in preaching the truth of the indwelling of the holy spirit in believers .....So, the probability of that happening is practically non existent.

What if he gave out the picture for healing, just like the handkerchief, can you use it?

Where did the bible tell you that they were baby christians, hence their need for handkerchief? Which verse? You're still dodging this question, mr believer.

Amberon:
Stone worshipper, no difference between you and Mohammedans who go to mecca to kiss a stone.

Please wait...it seems smeago007 uses his brain. Let me wait for his reply.

I will answer blockheads later. If I'm chanced.

Themandator:



What do you mean by contradictory doctrines

Example: Some so-called believers like you say salvation can be lost, others say once saved, always saved.

How can you then be the Church - the pillar and foundation of truth?


Also, you said anything you dont find in the bible is demonic.

By your deficient logic, it is demonic to even have a bible. No?

italo:


Example: Some so-called believers like you say salvation can be lost, others say once saved, always saved.

How can you then be the Church - the pillar and foundation of truth?


Also, you said anything you dont find in the bible is demonic.

By your deficient logic, it is demonic to even have a bible. No?

No. Any practice you can't find in the bible , old testament and reaffirmed in the new covenant, for the purpose of godly relationship with Jehovah God is demonic.

You can't find the bible in the bible but you can find the statements of paul relating to understanding....I Paul understood by book. ..... You can find that of Daniel and you can find that out Lord Jesus Christ discovered what was written concerning him by reading



The bible is a rigid 'constitution' for the believer

italo:


What if he gave out the picture for healing, just like the handkerchief, can you use it?

Where did the bible tell you that they were baby christians, hence their need for handkerchief? Which verse? You're still dodging this question, mr believer.

I won't continue a discourse on supposition , it is has not happened and won't happen .... It is not in the constitution and therefore won't happen

Enough handkerchiefs are still available



As for your second since it is the scripture and I have tried to explain and still have not been able then you try to find the reason for yourself and let me know why the needed handkerchiefs. Thank

Themandator:



I won't continue a discourse on supposition , it is has not happened and won't happen .... It is not in the constitution and therefore won't happen

Enough handkerchiefs are still available

But i hear it is already happening amongst you so-called believers whom you wrongly call "the Church." Winners Chapel members hang images of Oyedepo because they believe it will bring them blessings. There is one of your pastors in Brazil who said his semen is holy milk...and women in your "church" were drinking it for blessings. What do you say about these members of your "church" who are so-called believers like you with indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Secondly, where did the bible say if something is not written in the bible, Christians should not do it?

Themandator:

As for your second since it is the scripture and I have tried to explain and still have not been able then you try to find the reason for yourself and let me know why the needed handkerchiefs. Thank

Because it pleases God to use both natural and man-made objects to apply grace to human beings (whether baby or adult Christians). It has been so from the beginning and God has never told us that that has stopped.

And you have to make up your mind whether your doctrine is from the Bible alone or from your own head.

Themandator:

No. Any practice you can't find in the bible , old testament and reaffirmed in the new covenant, for the purpose of godly relationship with Jehovah God is demonic.

Where did you get the above from? From the Bible or from your head?

Themandator:

You can't find the bible in the bible but you can find the statements of paul relating to understanding....I Paul understood by book. ..... You can find that of Daniel and you can find that out Lord Jesus Christ discovered what was written concerning him by reading

Since you cant find "bible" in the bible, but can only find 'reading.' Why do not read other writings like seven books of Moses, gospel of barnabas, acts of paul, acts of peter etc? Why do you only read the books the Catholic Church accepted and compiled as Bible in 382?

Themandator:

The bible is a rigid 'constitution' for the believer

Where did the Bible say this?

Once again,

Example: Some so-called believers like you say salvation can be lost, others say once saved, always saved.

How can you then be the Church - the pillar and foundation of truth?

italo:

But i hear it is already happening amongst you so-called believers whom you wrongly call "the Church." Winners Chapel members hang images of Oyedepo because they believe it will bring them blessings. There is one of your pastors in Brazil who said his semen is holy milk...and women in your "church" were drinking it for blessings. What do you say about these members of your "church" who are so-called believers like you with indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Secondly, where did the bible say if something is not written in the bible, Christians should not do it?


Because it pleases God to use both natural and man-made objects to apply grace to human beings (whether baby or adult Christians). It has been so from the beginning and God has never told us that that has stopped.

And you have to make up your mind whether your doctrine is from the Bible alone or from your own head.

I am of the opinion that we have left the middle of road for the ditch .....Our core disagreement is having images in the church and worshipping them or praying through them or gazing at them while praying. ....While you supported their use with the issue of Joshua kneeling before the tabernacle, I stated that it was so because it was the home of God in the old testament but for the new covenant saints the home has moved into us and therefore we have no need for imgaes. We are now the express image and temple of the almighty God for any kind of his stay on the earth.

You brought up handkerchiefs and I stated that they were used to demonstrate his power and not for purpose of praying or prostration or intent staring at in the form of meditation.


The point is what you do with the image ...... Handkerchiefs are not image but materials items ....images are solid objects designed to be a copy of wither humans or animals or objects


Now you have brought up image or pictures of Winners founder ......Still the departing point is whether the person you saw the picture in his or her house told you that she prays in front of it ... Kneels before it .... Ask the image to for him or her .

I have Bishop oyedepo nooks and I know Winners are too well grounded to believe this nonsense you stated as their reasons for having his picture .........If you had stated that they told you it is for easy with identification with their church it would have made sense .


In One of of Oyedepo books , he told a story of a man who came to meet him for spiritual issues and he was not around and he opted to wait .... When he came and he was told that this man had been waiting , even though he received the man , he however told him that if he had invested the time he spent waiting on him to opening the book, the holy spirit would have given him direction on his challenge. That is not a man who crave idolization and Now that you have brought his picture matter to my attention, I am going to get one framed for my parlour because I respect his anointing and understanding of the scripture. He teaches Joe to attract the blessing and having his picture is not one of the ..How to in his books. ...I have so many of his books ....it is them that receives Him that he gave the power to become the sons of God ......Your making is in your following ....Follow me and I will make you ......


If you go out and buy an image of a woman with long bead dropping from a clasp hands and you add two candles by the sides on a table covered with white cloth and then knel, there to pray you have idolised the image ......It is satanic



As for the other persons you mentioned and sperm I have nothing to say because I have never read about him and I would not want to lie to defend him or not just to score cheap points

italo:


Where did you get the above from? From the Bible or from your head?


Since you cant find "bible" in the bible, but can only find 'reading.' Why do not read other writings like seven books of Moses, gospel of barnabas, acts of paul, acts of peter etc? Why do you only read the books the Catholic Church accepted and compiled as Bible in 382?


Where did the Bible say this?

Once again,

Example: Some so-called believers like you say salvation can be lost, others say once saved, always saved.

How can you then be the Church - the pillar and foundation of truth?

Everything written was written for our learning ....We didn't learn from the new covenant that images were used for prayers. ....

Good day , I have work to do

Senseless!

italo:


Please wait...it seems smeago007 uses his brain. Let me wait for his reply.

I will answer blockheads later. If I'm chanced.