Amberon:
That's like saying "why did God let his disciples die, did God forsake them"?

God does as He wills.

That's not eat am implying... God works through pole and at that moment, the did its best to counter Islamic attacks... Without which like 90% of the world's population will be Muslims.

Izonpikin:
now let's go into logic since you guys won't leave mary alone...what if the siblings of Mary were half siblings there's more than enough reason why they both can answer mary..apart from the fact that even siblings today answer name from an outsider point of view..abi na only mary her papa born..

You are just running around trying to find a reason to justify your assumption. There is no need to assume anything when facts are available. If you understood Greek or Hebrew, try read the bible from which the English bible was translated from, you will see that relatives are called brothers or sisters e.g. Lot was called Abraham's brother despite they were cousins. Also, there will be no need to think that Mary the mother of Jesus had a half sister since her parent, Joachim and Hannah, had no child outside their marriage. It is not written anywhere or through the testimony passed down by the apostles that this couple had child outside marriage. We are told of their piety and faithfulness to God

Amberon:
Do I bow down to them during prayer to worship? Mumu. Continue your idolatry.

insulter... idiot u condem images now u are starting another story.... do catholics also bow down to images during prayer to worship or u are just born ignorant... idiot

Back to sender Mr idolater.[s]

martooski:


insulter... idiot u condem images now u are starting another story.... do catholics also bow down to images during prayer to worship or u are just born ignorant... idiot

[/s]

Werehkpe:


We need to stop abusing others who do not share our views. If you dont agree with Op's views, then just say so and support your view with Scriptural backing.

What I know is there is a reason why Catholics when praying say "Mary INTERCEDE for us" and "God have MERCY on us" From these two its quite evident who is being worshiped as a Supreme God and who is being respected.

Again we need to understand that the prayer said to d Virgin Mary is TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM THE BIBLE.

Lastly, I dont see y all these argument exists. Protestants pray directly to Jesus and He answers them. Catholics pray THROUGH MARY to Jesus and HE also answers them. So what is all the trouble about

Tell me how this is not praying directly to mary and show me which Scripture it was taken.

I can't count the number of times I've seen Catholics kneeling before an inage of mary and praying directly to her.

Is she omniscient like God to hear all those request made to her from all over the world?

Ubenedictus:
this is like asking why did Jesus prostrate when he prayed since he is God.

non seqitur.

Our discourse is not about positioning while praying for God answers prays so long as the heart is in a thanksgiving and worship position. Jesus never bowed to any mortar and sand, the works of men hands , while praying nor did any of the disciples did.


Once Pentecost came believers became the temple of God....... No cement and sand sculpture is the swelling place of the spirit of God ......If any of such is purported to shed tears of blood it is because it harbours demons in it who infrequently does such to keep his worshippers loyal

Ubenedictus:
amen!


The issue is that the word used for 'brothers' in the greek scripture doesnt always mean uterine brothers, it can also mean fellow relatives or even countrymen. In this case we know the context doesnt support fellow countrymen so they are either relatives or blood brothers.
Here it is important to lay precept on precept, matthew already named the brothers of Jesus and then clearly wrote that they were sons of another mary who is a relative to mary the mother of Jesus. By this we know that the 'brothers' were simply his relatives.

Mary was betrothed to Joseph who found out she was pregnant and was looking for ways to silently put her way then the Lord told him to take Mary as his Wife ..He did.

Jesus was born and every one in their community believed he was the father of Jesus as they asked is the not the son of Mary and the carpenter and are his brother and sister not here with us

Until Jesus Christ ministry started at the age of thirty after his baptism by John, he was doing carpentry works with Joseph and for those space of thirty years , Mary was a wife to Joseph, in the practical sense of it ."""......The secret about who Jesus was and how his pregnancy was achieved was only know to his parents otherwise the city people would have referred to Him as a bastard

Joseph was used to masks the parenthood of Jesus and it is not possible that while Mary and her husband lived , she was just seen as an altar as you are supposing that wherever the power of God fell in the old testament became a holy thing not to be touched or used ....Mary wasn't a thing but somebody's wife


If Joseph was treating Mary the way you have insinuated then he remarried because he can't have a wife and not be a proper husband but the Bible never said anything like that happened


If Joseph was treating Mary the way you have described, avoiding body contact and affections because she was overshadowed by the power of the most high and therefore locked according to you like a goddess to be adored and worship it would have been easier to locate Jesus Christ because the story would have gone out that Joseph doesn't have body contacts with his supposed wife because she has given birth to a Saviour and the lives of those little children killed in Herod desperate search for Jesus would have been avoided


Matt 18:16 says in the mouth of two or three is a thing confirmed ......The scripture have got more than one confirmation that Mary had other children. Technicalities of what brother means in the Greek language won't change that.

Themandator:



Our discourse is not about positioning while praying for God answers prays so long as the heart is in a thanksgiving and worship position.

Even in front of a statue e.g Joshua 7:6. No?

Themandator:


Jesus never bowed to any mortar and sand, the works of men hands , while praying nor did any of the disciples did.

But he knelt before a book and pastor abi?

Themandator:



Once Pentecost came believers became the temple of God....... No cement and sand sculpture is the swelling place of the spirit of God ......If any of such is purported to shed tears of blood it is because it harbours demons in it who infrequently does such to keep his worshippers loyal

The Spirit of God dwelled in man-made object before Pentecost...but at Pentecost the Spirit of God left man-made objects for demons. But the Spirit of God still dwelt in Peter's shadow (Acts 5:15) and Paul's handkerchief (Acts 19:12). So the Spirit of God only gave up sculptures to the demons but retained shadows, handkerchiefs...and anointing oils.

Teacher, that is what you're telling us abi?

Themandator:




Mary was betrothed to Joseph who found out she was pregnant and was looking for ways to silently put her way then the Lord told him to take Mary as his Wife ..He did.

Jesus was born and every one in their community believed he was the father of Jesus as they asked is the not the son of Mary and the carpenter and are his brother and sister not here with us

Until Jesus Christ ministry started at the age of thirty after his baptism by John, he was doing carpentry works with Joseph and for those space of thirty years , Mary was a wife to Joseph, in the practical sense of it ."""......The secret about who Jesus was and how his pregnancy was achieved was only know to his parents otherwise the city people would have referred to Him as a bastard

Joseph was used to masks the parenthood of Jesus and it is not possible that while Mary and her husband lived , she was just seen as an altar as you are supposing that wherever the power of God fell in the old testament became a holy thing not to be touched or used ....Mary wasn't a thing but somebody's wife


If Joseph was treating Mary the way you have insinuated then he remarried because he can't have a wife and not be a proper husband but the Bible never said anything like that happened


If Joseph was treating Mary the way you have described, avoiding body contact and affections because she was overshadowed by the power of the most high and therefore locked according to you like a goddess to be adored and worship it would have been easier to locate Jesus Christ because the story would have gone out that Joseph doesn't have body contacts with his supposed wife because she has given birth to a Saviour and the lives of those little children killed in Herod desperate search for Jesus would have been avoided


Matt 18:16 says in the mouth of two or three is a thing confirmed ......The scripture have got more than one confirmation that Mary had other children. Technicalities of what brother means in the Greek language won't change that.

Matt 28:10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”

v16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.

So teacher, Mary gave birth to the eleven disciples/brothers of Jesus abi?

You are free to continue erecting sculptures and praying to them but whatever you can't find after the establishment of the new covenant and was never practised by the disciples remains demonic inputs called religion into Christianity .

Material items where used as medium for conveying the power of God to where it was needed in both the old and new testament but not for prayer or to be prayed to for those items weren't made prayer receptors but a source for the display of the power of God. .... Anointing oil was given to the disciples when they were paired and they returned with testimonials, so also was the apron from Paul but they were never altars or small god like juju men have images through which they communicate with their gods


Again you are free to erect even more images for all the apostles and mentioned disciples and prayer to them to help you prayer to God. As for me, Jesus said , I am the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the father except by me


Thank you

italo:



[/b] Even in front of a statue e.g Joshua 7:6. No?


But he knelt before a book and pastor abi?

The Spirit of God dwelled in man-made object before Pentecost...but at Pentecost the Spirit of God left man-made objects for demons. But the Spirit of God still dwelt in Peter's shadow (Acts 5:15) and Paul's handkerchief (Acts 19:12). So the Spirit of God only gave up sculptures to the demons but retained shadows, handkerchiefs...and anointing oils.

Teacher, that is what you're telling us abi?

italo:



Matt 28:10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”

v16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.

So teacher, Mary gave birth to the eleven disciples/brothers of Jesus abi?

Matt 12:46 -50 ...Summary ....His mother and brothers came desiring to speak to him and he was informed but his reply was : Those doing the will of my father are my brother.

The apostles were the persons he was referring to for they were the ones he called and used for his ministry . He already identified Peter as the leader of the church . Don't twist it


While he was around the apostles were called disciples but when he left they became the apostles having disciples

Themandator:



Matt 12:46 -50 ...Summary ....His mother and brothers came desiring to speak to him and he was informed but his reply was : Those doing the will of my father are my brother.

The apostles were the persons he was referring to for they were the ones he called and used for his ministry . He already identified Peter as the leader of the church . Don't twist it


While he was around the apostles were called disciples but when he left they became the apostles having disciples

Aha!

You now agree that in the Bible, "brother" can mean something other than 'male sibling.'

True or false?

Izonpikin:
my bible said they were husband and wife...the onus is on you Mary worshippers to show she never slept with her husband...how can a wife not sleep with her husband??..did God ban her??..not even the apocryphal writings can help out with that falsehood...


You guys have denied Innocent Joseph of sleeping with his wife..

I hope you haven't slept with your wife since you married her...??

Rubbish

A jew husband and wife, where the wife gave birth to a son who isnt biologically related to his father abi no b so?

the very situation where the jew rabbis teach that it is forbidden for a jew to have relations with his wife.

Joseph was a just jew.
Now think again.

Izonpikin:
the sisters nkor mentioned in Matthew? ??who gave birth to them. ...so from all your hasty assumptions and tumblongs we can say for all the times that Greek word was used it always meant relatives , meaning nobody in the Greek scriptures ever had blood siblings...they were all relatives or rather they all fell down from the heavens...

Selective application of the Greek word...can I assume the sons of zeebedee were also relatives? ?..

I am coming to debunk you idol worshippers..

we used scripture to show u who gave birth to the so-callee brothers, but you have prefered to remain in ignorance.

Amberon:
Who told you water is colourless?

My chemistry and inter science teacher... how does that concern the topic?

Amberon:
Quit mentioning me on this subject, I have made my point clear and if it eludes you then I can't keep up with this conversation.

Today u have heard his voice harden not ur heart.

Amberon:
What are you saying, do you understand what "anything" entails?

Anything includes d ark and d cherubim abi?

Ubenedictus:
A jew husband and wife, where the wife gave birth to a son who isnt biologically related to his father abi no b so?

the very situation where the jew rabbis teach that it is forbidden for a jew to have relations with his wife.

Joseph was a just jew.
Now think again.

which Jewish rabbis?...can you quote a scripture on that..

Ubenedictus:
we used scripture to show u who gave birth to the so-callee brothers, but you have prefered to remain in ignorance.

and I have been quoting a scripture to counter your spurious claims...the scripture is as clear as day light...Jesus immediate family was joseph,mary and his half siblings...

Themandator:
You are free to continue erecting sculptures and praying to them but whatever you can't find after the establishment of the new covenant and was never practised by the disciples remains demonic inputs called religion into Christianity .

So it is demonic to have a bible, since "bible" is not mentioned anywhere.

Themandator:

Material items where used as medium for conveying the power of God to where it was needed in both the old and new testament but not for prayer or to be prayed to for those items weren't made prayer receptors but a source for the display of the power of God. ....

Joshua7:6 But Josue rent his garments, and fell flat on the ground, before the ark of the Lord, until the evening, both he and all the ancients of Israel: and they put dust upon their heads.
7:7 And Josue said: Alas, O Lord God, why wouldst thou bring this people over the river Jordan, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorrhite, and to destroy us? would God we had stayed beyond the Jordan, as we began.
7:8 My Lord God, what shall I say, seeing Israel turning their backs to their enemies?
7:9 The Chanaanites, and all the inhabitants of the land, will hear of it, and being gathered together will surround us, and cut off our name from the earth: and what wilt thou do to thy great name?

Teacher, so the above is not prayer abi?

Themandator:

Anointing oil was given to the disciples when they were paired and they returned with testimonials, so also was the apron from Paul

Ah! So after Pentecost, God's Spirit continued to possess man-made items? Wonderful turnaround!

Themandator:

but they were never altars or small god like juju men have images through which they communicate with their gods

The Ark of the covenant was exactly that. It was an altar with images like the ones juju men use.

Themandator:


Again you are free to erect even more images for all the apostles and mentioned disciples and prayer to them to help you prayer to God. As for me, Jesus said , I am the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the father except by me


Thank you

And you are free to print books and kneel and worship them, and to kneel and worship your pastors. As for me, the Holy Spirit said the (Catholic) Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, not the bible...or your childish interpretation of it.

Izonpikin:
and I have been quoting a scripture to counter your spurious claims...the scripture is as clear as day light...Jesus immediate family was joseph,mary and his half siblings...

Matt 28:10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”

v16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.

Above is more scripture. So Mary gave birth to the 11 disciples abi?

I will not school you on english too.

Ubenedictus:
Anything includes d ark and d cherubim abi?

I worship God alone and that's enough for me. Continue in your idolatry. Its a free world.

Ubenedictus:
Today u have heard his voice harden not ur heart.

italo:


So it is demonic to have a bible, since "bible" is not mentioned anywhere.


Joshua7:6 But Josue rent his garments, and fell flat on the ground, before the ark of the Lord, until the evening, both he and all the ancients of Israel: and they put dust upon their heads.
7:7 And Josue said: Alas, O Lord God, why wouldst thou bring this people over the river Jordan, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorrhite, and to destroy us? would God we had stayed beyond the Jordan, as we began.
7:8 My Lord God, what shall I say, seeing Israel turning their backs to their enemies?
7:9 The Chanaanites, and all the inhabitants of the land, will hear of it, and being gathered together will surround us, and cut off our name from the earth: and what wilt thou do to thy great name?

Teacher, so the above is not prayer abi?


Ah! So after Pentecost, God's Spirit continued to possess man-made items? Wonderful turnaround!


The Ark of the covenant was exactly that. It was an altar with images like the ones juju men use.

And you are free to print books and kneel and worship them, and to kneel and worship your pastors. As for me, the Holy Spirit said the (Catholic) Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, not the bible...or your childish interpretation of it.

You can have more image and try to be clever by half ......My interest was image and you brought in handkerchiefs and aprons in the picture . I stated that after Pentecost the spirit of God came down on humans and therefore human beings can't be lookng for God in idols


Joshua never received or experienced Pentecost, he had the experience of visitation like all the fathers of old that God stayed with in tabernacles.


Elijah left Elisha with a clothing material and this found support in the new testament when aprons takes from the body of Paul were used to heal and cast our demons ....In the mouth of two or three is a thing confirmed.....Matg 18:16


Images like that of Mary carrying a supposed dying Jesus that populates your church premises are demonic and not of God ... There is no spirit of God in them for people are the express image of God not idols that you pray to . This is different from your new angles of aprons and Anointing oil which you don't kneel before like you do in front of those Ghana men produced statues


You only use handkerchiefs and Anointing oil ...You dont pray to them. .....I know and hope the difference is now clear.


Idols or statues you pray to but Anointing oils and aprons are used to demonstrate the power of God ...Is any sick amongst you let them call the elders of the church that they may pray for him and anoint him......Not pray to the oil as an intercessor between you and God.

Every image is satanic .....Bible is a collection of the word of God... It is the only guide for every true Christian......We don't kneel on it . We study it .....dont confuse it with image made out of sand and cement by mostly Ghana men who are idol worshippers themselves


You are free to have more idols or statues of Mary , Joseph and a supposed jesus dot your landscape ...Na your cup of tea



I won't pursue your new angle of your church being the pillar of truth as told you by the holy spirit for I know that you have no scriptural basis for your statement but only emotions


We are God and children of the most high says Jesus Christ , we have the mind of Christ and more importantly, we are heirs of the kingdom and joint heirs with Christ ...Praise God


This is what you are ......Gal 4:1



By the way , it is better to kneel in front of my pastor than in front of an image composed of nothing but sand , clay, cement and irons which attracts satanic agents into it ....For a pastor is a man carrying the spirit and Anointing ......He says he will give me pastors after his own heart .....For water to flow there is need for a slope ......It can't flow on a plane .....So a pastor carry's a higher grace because of his calling but no image carry's anything other satanic agents

italo:




And you are free to print books and kneel and worship them, and to kneel and worship your pastors. As for me, the Holy Spirit said the (Catholic) Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, not the bible...or your childish interpretation of it.

The holy spirit said the foundation of truth is the catholic church and not the Bible .... Really. Never heard or read this before ...The Bible is subject to your church doctrines .....woa

italo:


Matt 28:10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”

v16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.

Above is more scripture. So Mary gave birth to the 11 disciples abi?

wrong ...the scripture I quoted Jesus was with his disciples but people came to tell him that Mary and his siblings were looking for him...

Izonpikin:
wrong ...the scripture I quoted Jesus was with his disciples but people came to tell him that Mary and his siblings were looking for him...

Leave the italo guy. He has engaged me with different monikers in matter of image and I have explined to him that all images in church premises and jokes for purpose of worship are demonic as we are the express image of God and the death of Jesus was so we could received the spirit of God on Pentecost.

He went and brought Joshua praying before the status and I have told him that the old testament saints all had visitation but the new testament saints have indwelling of the spirit


He made a blasphemous statement that the catholic church teaching and doctrines are superior to the Bible as told him by the holy spirit ....You can find that maybe on this page 24

Themandator:



You can have more image and try to be clever by half ......My interest was image and you brought in handkerchiefs and aprons in the picture . I stated that after Pentecost the spirit of God came down on humans and therefore human beings can't be lookng for God in idols

But they can look for God in shadows, oils, books and handkerchiefs?

Themandator:

Joshua never received or experienced Pentecost, he had the experience of visitation like all the fathers of old that God stayed with in tabernacles.

So bowing and praying before images was right before pentecost but wrong after pentecost. Where did the bible say that?

Themandator:

Elijah left Elisha with a clothing material and this found support in the new testament when aprons takes from the body of Paul were used to heal and cast our demons ....In the mouth of two or three is a thing confirmed.....Matg 18:16

Ok, so aprons can be copied from the old testament to the new testament, but images cant be copied? Welldone, teacher.

Themandator:

Images like that of Mary carrying a supposed dying Jesus that populates your church premises are demonic and not of God ... There is no spirit of God in them for people are the express image of God not idols that you pray to . This is different from your new angles of aprons and Anointing oil which you don't kneel before like you do in front of those Ghana men produced statues

Ah! I didnt know you were the Satan's Chief of Personnel. So how many of your boys (demons) did you deploy to each Marian statue...and how many to Oyedepo's picture? And at the same time, you are the custodian of the Holy Spirit, who tells him to possess handkerchiefs, oils, books and shadows, but bans him from Catholic images. Welldone teacher.

Themandator:

You only use handkerchiefs and Anointing oil ...You dont pray to them. .....I know and hope the difference is now clear.

Idols or statues you pray to but Anointing oils and aprons are used to demonstrate the power of God ...Is any sick amongst you let them call the elders of the church that they may pray for him and anoint him......Not pray to the oil as an intercessor between you and God.

There is no difference. We only use images, like the Israelites and Joshua. We dont pray to them.

Themandator:

Every image is satanic .....

Including pictures of your father and mother.

Themandator:

Bible is a collection of the word of God... It is the only guide for every true Christian......We don't kneel on it . We study it .....dont confuse it with image made out of sand and cement by mostly Ghana men who are idol worshippers themselves

Where did Jesus or the apostles tell you that? Bible was compiled by the Catholic Church in 382AD. They chose the books in it and discarded the books they didnt think were inspired. And you protestants 'kneel and pray' to it. You idol worshippers, worshipping a book compiled by the Catholic Church.

Themandator:

You are free to have more idols or statues of Mary , Joseph and a supposed jesus dot your landscape ...Na your cup of tea

You are free to worship olive oil or palm oil or shadow of peter or adeboye...or bible...or dictionary...your cup of tea.

Themandator:

I won't pursue your new angle of your church being the pillar of truth as told you by the holy spirit for I know that you have no scriptural basis for your statement but only emotions

1Tim3:15

Themandator:

We are God and children of the most high says Jesus Christ , we have the mind of Christ and more importantly, we are heirs of the kingdom and joint heirs with Christ ...Praise God


This is what you are ......Gal 4:1

Ah! You're also God who sifts the sheep from the goats? Welldone, master.

Themandator:

By the way , it is better to kneel in front of my pastor than in front of an image composed of nothing but sand , clay, cement and irons which attracts satanic agents into it ....For a pastor is a man carrying the spirit and Anointing ......He says he will give me pastors after his own heart .....For water to flow there is need for a slope ......It can't flow on a plane .....So a pastor carry's a higher grace because of his calling but no image carry's anything other satanic agents

We have seen how the 'higher grace' leads the pastors to sleep with small girls and teach contradictory doctrines...when the holy spirit gave us one doctrine. Continue.

Themandator:



The holy spirit said the foundation of truth is the catholic church and not the Bible .... Really. Never heard or read this before ...The Bible is subject to your church doctrines .....woa

1Tim3:15

So your pastor who you kneel to and worship lied to you that the Bible is the pillar and foundation of truth?

Amberon:
I worship God alone and that's enough for me. Continue in your idolatry. Its a free world.

Are you sure you dont worship pastor and book?

Izonpikin:
wrong ...the scripture I quoted Jesus was with his disciples but people came to tell him that Mary and his siblings were looking for him...

So in the bible, "brother" doesnt always mean 'male sibling,' yes or no.

Themandator:



Leave the italo guy. He has engaged me with different monikers in matter of image and I have explined to him that all images in church premises and jokes for purpose of worship are demonic as we are the express image of God and the death of Jesus was so we could received the spirit of God on Pentecost.

He went and brought Joshua praying before the status and I have told him that the old testament saints all had visitation but the new testament saints have indwelling of the spirit


He made a blasphemous statement that the catholic [b]church teaching and doctrines are superior to the Bible [/b]as told him by the holy spirit ....You can find that maybe on this page 24

You have entered the lying phase of your argument.

Please quote where i said the bold for izonpikin.