Thank you so much beneli.

whats up about NARD strike?
does anyone know of a centre that as palpated CONMESS.
whats up with the arrears?

beneli:

If the role of the NMA is the same as that of their counterpart in the UK, then most of the things they’d be doing would be focused on protecting the interest of the Doctors.

That’s right. It’s not so much about protecting the ‘integrity of their various private practices’, it’s about protecting Doctors interest in a dog-eat-dog-world. That’s what professional associations do! It doesn’t really matter what is on paper, the NMA officials are voted in by other Doctors based on what they plan to offer to the Doctors.

That’s not to say that they are oblivious of their Hippocratic (hypocrites) oath to practice medicine ethically. Far from it, its just that the bigger picture determines how they meet the obligations of that oath. The bigger picture is that so-called ‘systemic rot’.

I think the rot set in because of so many factors.

Obviously Doctors cannot absolve themselves completely of the blame since they (we) haven’t done really that much to change it other than agitate for increased salaries. But can you really blame the Doctors?

Before I left Naija, I doubt I was earning up to 50k per month. Having the toga of a ‘doctor’ around me, there were a lot of responsibilities that started to be thrust upon me, by society, based on the erroneous belief that I was now making loads of money. So because of the demands and expectations upon my meagre income I found myself deteriorating quite rapidly into penury!

To make ends meet I had to look for locums to do, private patients to treat, thereby working round the clock; I was accommodated at my night job, from where I commuted to my day job. I didn’t have a life. I didn’t have access (as in time) for training. I was frustrated. My frustration must have been palpable in my practice, no doubt but I left the country before I snapped.

I cannot speak for my colleagues who are in Nigeria, no matter how I try to empathise with them. But one thing is clear: a hungry man is an angry man, and a lot of our Doctors in Nigeria are hungry. That is a fact.

I think that Dr Ransome-Kuti’s statement also says quite a lot about the system itself.

It is difficult to mobilize all the health workers within the structures currently available. Structures need to be mounted that allows health workers to be better regulated. Structures need to be in place that defines the standards of care that we wish to achieve, striving to make these standards comply with internationally accepted best practices, and making these standards available to all the health providers. Structures need to be in place that penalizes health providers that do not meet up with these standards. That’s how a system that wants to work, works.

Civil society organizations also have a role to play. People should be making demands on their health providers and not adopting the ‘ee-go-better’ attitude. The truth is; ee no go better unless we do something about it!

I don’t know what to say, really. I could go on another rant on how it’s dangerous to get our health advise and prescriptions of the internet blah-blah-blah, but I am sure you know all that, so I wonder if saying ‘sorry’, would suffice.

one of those boring days and i stumbled upon this thread and this argument in particular.
While Ajanlekoko has put his points across as throughly as he always does, i think his expectation is a bit idealistic.
I believe that the problem with our medical sector is a symptom of a bigger problem - a failed and crumbling system.The problem with medical practitioners is no different from the problem with nigerian lawyers or nigerian engineers.Everyone feels the system is sinking fast and wishes to grab as much as possible before the titanic sinks.It may not be a right attitude or approach but unless the system is fixed, you can't get nor expect better.
the second problem is that medicine like teaching are callings not vocations.
many people got into medical school with expectations of venturing into a money spinner.
Alas, they take out there frustration on society when that dream does not materialise.
In summary, Nigerians will get Nigerian doctors.the common denominator is the Nigerian system.
It is futile asking for or expecting anything different.
Ajanlekoko has described his attitude to work (the lad is a true model ), i am certain there are doctors with similar approach to there profession but they in the minority and are few and far between.the fact the majority migrate to europe/non america and conform is a proof to the fact that the system is faulty. it is the same system that is at fault for the deteriorating quality of medical graduates.the quality is appaling and frightful.

the role of NMA is to collect annual levy, coordiante strikes, hold one or two senseless annual lectures and hold its own elections as stipulated by its constitution so the elected executive can pursue the earlier mentioned goals.

beneli and mbulela,

Just wanted to re-iterate something here.
We talk a lot about doctors being hungry, the system being in total decay, etc. But I have one question. What are our expectations as individuals? How are we contributing, or refusing to contribute, to the systemic problems?

We talk about doctors' renumeration in Europe and North America. Have we asked what doctors are paid in India and the Philippines?
I have a close Indian friend, here in Lagos, who is always telling me how amazed he is at Nigerians persistently demanding higher wages, without promising any particular level of productivity. In his opinion, there is no basis. He says in India, there are cutting-edge specialists in various areas of science, technology and medicine, that are earning something around $500 a month, but are still highly-skilled.

It's easy for us to say 'don't mind the Indian  jare!'.  But I think the man has a strong point. He comes from a nation where people fight hard for whatever they get, and he wonders why we expect to be spoon-fed? Why do we think these other nations have solid and committed governments, or that these people do not have the same ethnic, religious, or socio-political problems we have?
My father used to tell me a lot about his two myths theory. He says there are two myths about Nigerians, that they were hardworking and very intelligent, but these myths are in fact myths - Nigerians are not any more hardworking than other people or more intelligent than others. For him, the only thing Nigeria has is its population.

Very tough questions you’ve asked there, Ajanlekoko!  I will try to answer them in my own way.

AjanleKoko:

beneli and mbulela,
Just wanted to re-iterate something here. We talk a lot about doctors being hungry, the system being in total decay, etc. But I have one question. What are our expectations as individuals?

I guess OUR expectation would be to be able to go to hospitals and get the solutions that we need to our health problems: within that expectation would lie the hope that those we entrust with our lives have the required training and skills to help us, and also have access to the basic resources to be able to meet our expectations of them. We should expect nothing less from our Doctors-we should expect nothing more. 

AjanleKoko:

How are we contributing, or refusing to contribute, to the systemic problems?

Our attitude of not asking questions of those entrusted with providing us services in all industries, contributes to the problem. Our propensity to be cowered into silence by those we perceive to be more ‘powerful’ then us, contributes to the problem. There is pervasive systemic failure because the man in us has died (due respects to Prof Soyinka) and Nigeria is left to fester because all that is left are wailing spirits who lack the ability to act.

AjanleKoko:

We talk about doctors' remuneration in Europe and North America. Have we asked what doctors are paid in India and the Philippines?

I am not sure what they are paid in India and the Philippines.  It is certainly much less than Doctors get paid in the USA, UK etc, That’s why you find Indian Doctors migrating to those places in droves.   

AjanleKoko:

I have a close Indian friend, here in Lagos, who is always telling me how amazed he is at Nigerians persistently demanding higher wages, without promising any particular level of productivity. In his opinion, there is no basis. He says in India, there are cutting-edge specialists in various areas of science, technology and medicine, that are earning something around $500 a month, but are still highly-skilled.

I am most certain that Indian Doctors get paid more than what your friend suggests that those specialists earn.

AjanleKoko:

It's easy for us to say 'don't mind the Indian  jare!'.  But I think the man has a strong point. He comes from a nation where people fight hard for whatever they get, and he wonders why we expect to be spoon-fed? Why do we think these other nations have solid and committed governments, or that these people do not have the same ethnic, religious, or socio-political problems we have?

The socio-economic revolution unfolding in India, I must confess, is quite impressive. And I agree that they do not have solid and committed governments etc, but at least they do have a government.

In Nigeria, we have witches masquerading as politicians. They cluster together in their covens to scheme and plan on how to suck the very life blood out of our country. They are adept at talking the talk of ‘governance’, but are bereft of any ideas of what it means to govern. They are howling demons from our worst nightmares that have dared encroach into our living experiences to take us hostage. They parade themselves as politicians, but they are not. The fact that they come from amongst us, raises some questions that need to be answered by all of us. So in that respect we are different from India.

AjanleKoko:

My father used to tell me a lot about his two myths theory. He says there are two myths about Nigerians, that they were hardworking and very intelligent, but these myths are in fact myths - Nigerians are not any more hardworking than other people or more intelligent than others. For him, the only thing Nigeria has is its population.

Your father is absolutely right. And if I may add, that population is but 150 million people most of whom have lost the spirit to fight.

Are we getting what we deserve? I don't know. But I curse whatever negative Karma that now bestrides us and is taking us on this horrific ride into total collapse!


PS: You may discern from my response that it's not so much about the so called systemic failure, but it's more about the state of helplessness that it engenders. Hence my comment about us being held hostage by demons!

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tuchi.

Hello sirs, im about writing my 4th mbbs exams, so i'll be through by next year, by Gods grace. the truth is that i have no passion for the career ahead, dont get me wrong i do enjoy knowing all the things i know about the body but im not looking foward to applying the knowledge. i just got a scholarship to study IT abroad, all i need is accept and the program starts and i cant postpone till next year. i have always been a creative person and i think i belong in the IT world. wat do u think i should do, should i take the risk?

chiketee:

Hello sirs, im about writing my 4th mbbs exams, so i'll be through by next year, by Gods grace. the truth is that i have no passion for the career ahead, dont get me wrong i do enjoy knowing all the things i know about the body but im not looking foward to applying the knowledge. i just got a scholarship to study IT abroad, all i need is accept and the program starts and i cant postpone till next year. i have always been a creative person and i think i belong in the IT world. wat do u think i should do, should i take the risk?

I would have started to ask such boring questions like; 'what motivated you in the first place to choose medicine and what has changed since then?; what now informs your decision that you 'belong in the IT world'? and so on and so forth-ad nauseatum.

But I recognise that we are not always able to put into words the reasons why we are enthused by certain things in life. So all I will say is that you follow your heart and have good luck in life: your heart can take you to new horizons that your head can never even dream of (it can help you ride the vicissitudes of life, when your head tells you to give up), while luck-or God-incidence, depending on your beilefs-has the power to transform a career (whether medicine or IT), which would have remained insipid and tedious into a life that is full of vibrancy, colours and enriching opportunities! Whichever pathway you choose is wrought with risks; but risks, at the end of the day, are there to be taken.

Follow your heart and good luck in life!

@ beneli, thanks 4 d advice i really appreciate, I've decided to reject the scholarship, i don't think im brave enough to take such a huge risk. so im playing it safe for now

hello,
@ beneli i am a medical doctor considering the non clinical aspects of medicine, what are you thots on biomedical engineering. have applied for pg studies in this area. everyone thinks i should go for mph

any pathologists in the house?? let me know

jade5268:

hello,
@ beneli i am a medical doctor considering the non clinical aspects of medicine, what are you thots on biomedical engineering. have applied for pg studies in this area. everyone thinks i should go for mph

I think the field of Biomedical Engineering would be very interesting, especially if you're a very creative and research-oriented person.

Of significance would be where you currently reside (or intend to reside), where you plan to do the postgraduate studies and what is motivating you in the direction of Biomedical Engineering.  MPH within the Nigerian context is probably 'safer', but that doesn't necessarily mean that it will guarantee you a lucrative job on graduation. Biomedical Engineering, on the other hand, is much bolder and futuristic-I see it as having great potentials, especially abroad. But a choice between MPH and Biomedical Engineering will depend fundamentally on what kind of person you are. Not everyone will enjoy, or even excel, as a Biomedical Engineer; while there are also a lot of people with the MPH who are either underemployed, jobless or doing something else with their lives!

Bottom line: don't listen to what 'everyone thinks'. 'Everyone' is never right. Listen instead to your heart and follow its whispers.

@beneli thank you so much for your response,very encouraging
currently reside in Nigeria and I have been accepted for PG studies in the UK and am looking at staying abroad for a while not necessarily in the UK. do you know any doctor who has chosen this career path?

^^^

I know somebody (a Nigerian Doctor) who is into Neurocybernetics. He has research interests in Artificial Intelligence and has previously been funded by NASA for some of his work relating to brain physiology and weightlessness. Send me an email on elias_beneli@yahoo.co.uk (that's elias underscore beneli) and I'll give you his contact details.

@beneli Thanks. I have sent you an email

^^^

I have responded.

parasitology due to the 'medical' attached to it. 3 months after graduating,am still not satisfied with myself. I should be going in for the Nysc batch C later this year but i want to go back to studying medicine as soon as i finish my Nysc. So please, i want you guys to help me with answers to these questions: what are the methods i can use in applying for admission? I heard i could use my Bsc degree to get myself a direct entry,how true is it? Which Nigerian Universities' medical school is the best? Please i really need the answers, thanks

not every one is destined to be what they wanted to but prayer is the bit.

Pls any one can offer advice on medical criminology

zilosxp:

Please i am in need of advice from doctors in here. I have always had the dream of being a medical doctor but due to JAMB issues,i had to settle for a Bsc. Degree in animal and environmental biology. In my school, the discipline has two options either Environmental biology or Medical parasitology.Now i specialised in Medical parasitology due to the 'medical' attached to it. 3 months after graduating,am still not satisfied with myself. I should be going in for the Nysc batch C later this year but i want to go back to studying medicine as soon as i finish my Nysc. So please, i want you guys to help me with answers to these questions: what are the methods i can use in applying for admission? I heard i could use my Bsc degree to get myself a direct entry,how true is it? Which Nigerian Universities' medical school is the best? Please i really need the answers, thanks

I am rather curious about this your 'dream' of being a Medical Doctor.

What exactly is it about 'being a Medical Doctor' that attracts you that you will want to spend another 6-8 years (making allowances for any strikes, carry overs etc) AFTER qualifying as a Medical parasitologist? Not to sound as if I am discouraging you (far from it; I am a believer in the potency of 'dreams' and one who advocates that people should pursue their dreams), but isn't that time (6-8 years), one that could be better spent getting a PhD in your field, landing a job that would probably earn you enough to sustain a respectable lifestyle, while still answering the title 'Dr'? Believe me, a 'basic medical qualification'-what you get at the end of 6-8 years-is not all that!

But to answer your questions though, I think that you may be better off asking some of the NYSC Doctors in your batch. They should be able to guide you with more up to date information.

Bottom line: don't go chasing shadows, while letting slip the substance!

Good luck!

Bobybarny:

not every one is destined to be what they wanted to but prayer is the bit.

Pls any one can offer advice on medical criminology

Medical criminology? That term is rather vague. You may need to be a bit more explicit in what you mean by the term and what advice you need.

But-
If you are talking about a 'Medical Doctor' who is a specialist in 'Criminal behaviour' then the term is 'Forensic Psychiatrist'.
If it is a specialist in Criminal behaviour who does not 'treat' them, then you're most likely referring to Forensic Psychologists.

For Forensic Psychiatry, you need to first of all undergo basic specialist training in General Psychiatry and then additional training in the subspeciality of Forensic Psychiatry. The Postgraduate training (after your 6-8 years in Medical school) is 6 years in the UK and 4 years in the USA. For Forensic Psychology you need to first of all become a Psychologist (4 years) and then get your PhD specialising in Criminal behaviour etc. That will take you probably another 3-4 years.

I hope the infomation is useful.

Thanks a lot for the response beneli, you always have an advice for everything,

Good day house,
I am a final year medical student here in Ukraine.I wish to undergo my postgraduate training here in Ukraine immediately after my MD in either General surgery,Urology,Onco-surgery(oncology) or Endocrinology before heading back to practice in Naija.The post MD training here is 2 year to become a specialist in any field.My questions are as follows:
1.Will I be exempted from NMDC exams or will I still need to do an exams?
2.Will the specialist degree be accepted by NMDC coz its undertaken only for 2 yrs?
3.What post(position) can I be employed as and what is the likely salary?
4.What specialty is on high demand(hot cake) in Naija as of now?
I was planing 2 go for the remedial and write the licensing exams immediately after my MD here before and do a year internship,NYSC services?(coz I will be 30 next yr) and start a private practice as my dad is also a medical doctor and has his private hospital,though I dont intend working with him due to family issue,am from a polygamous family and the 1st son and only child in the medical field.I am 100% sure I will pass the exams coz I really utilize my 6years of medical school here for studies.
I have acquired some medical equipments like ECG machine,Multi-purpose ultrasound machine,Dialysis machine,Lithotriptor for kidney stone lysis,Urine analyzer,Hematology analyzer,Glucose meter,3 laparotomy sets etc 2 set up my clinic.
All I need now is your brotherly,fatherly advice because I dont want to make a mistake as its the crucial stage in my life and career as a whole.

^^^

1. Will I be exempted from NMDC exams or will I still need to do an exams?
You won’t be exempted from the NMDC exams.

2. Will the specialist degree be accepted by NMDC coz its undertaken only for 2 yrs?
Follow this link for the registrable postgraduate medical qualifications
http://www.mdcnigeria.org/  Under the section titled ‘Quick links’, click on the 4th bullet point-MDCN recognised Additional Qualifications.

3. What post(position) can I be employed as and what is the likely salary?
I doubt you will be employed as anything other than a Senior House Officer. But you may still be required to do the House Officer thing first. I don’t know what the current salaries are.

4. What specialty is on high demand(hot cake) in Naija as of now?
I will let somebody who is in Nigeria answer that.

5.   I was planning 2 go for the remedial and write the licensing exams immediately after my MD here before and do a year internship, NYSC services?(coz I will be 30 next yr) and start a private practice as my dad is also a medical doctor and has his private hospital, though I don’t intend working with him due to family issue, am from a polygamous family and the 1st son and only child in the medical field. I am 100% sure I will pass the exams coz I really utilize my 6years of medical school here for studies. I have acquired some medical equipments like ECG machine, Multi-purpose ultrasound machine, Dialysis machine, Lithotriptor for kidney stone lysis, Urine analyzer, Hematology analyzer, Glucose meter,3 laparotomy sets etc 2 set up my clinic. All I need now is your brotherly, fatherly advice because I dont want to make a mistake as its the crucial stage in my life and career as a whole.

You pretty much seem to have figured out what you want. It’s a workable idea to go into private practice after your NYSC, given that in Nigeria you can pretty much set up ‘shop’ immediately out of Medical school, but the truth is that your postgraduate qualification may not be recognised ‘officially’. At least not immediately.

I seriously doubt that two years of postgraduate training is registrable as a postgraduate medical (specialist) qualification outside of that region. But then the MDCN site is a bit ambiguous about what it means by 'specialist certificate', from the CIS states (former USSR). You may be aware that in some places in that region (say some schools in the Russian Federation) those 2 years would be qualified as Ordinatura and not even Aspirantura and the certificate you get identifies this. Perhaps things have changed now given that you’re probably a paying student and what you get depend on how much money you have etc.

If I were in your position I would register to do the USMLE and consider doing my postgraduate training in the USA. I would spend the resources that I would have invested in 2 years of training in the Ukraine to prepare and pass the USMLE and then relocate to America for 4 years and get an Internationally recognised postgraduate Medical qualification. A year is enough to pass all the USMLE steps, given that you’d be fresh out of Medical school.
 
In the olden days (say 10 years ago and earlier) people did get their Aspirantura  recognised in Nigeria as a Postgraduate qualification, but even then (because of the way they view qualifications from that region) it required ‘knowing people’ and still demanded a period of topping up of ones training in Nigeria, and also being required to pass the relevant postgraduate exams before they could work as Consultants.

The MDCN website link that I provided above should give you additional information.

All the best

Is medicine difficult as ppl say? What regrets do you have about your job? Thanks

hmmmm,
this thread is interesting,
will be back!

Docs. in the house, I have an ambulance for sale. See if your hospital needs one. Call Chris on 08038040053.

More pics

Quote from Beneli "In Nigeria, we have witches masquerading as politicians. They cluster together in their covens to scheme and plan on how to suck the very life blood out of our country."

That moved me. Preach on pastor!

Hi Doctors.Not a medical person but my fiancee is planning on specializing in Public Health and wants to work for the state Govt.How lucrative is this?

'