₦airaland Forum

Ubenedictus:
I am well aware of the age of enlightenment and the humanists of that period... I am also well aware that certain moral questions were not totally resolved until later...though the Catholic Church had taught the immorality of chattel slavery long before the enlightenment began and also taught that gladiator contest was a immoral sport long before the enlightenment.

again these are objective moral truths... that people came to recognise them only later doesn't affect their truth.

since you believe morality is subjective, do you consider murder to be OK? and everybody should be allowed to decide since it is subjective? if you don't think everyone should be allowed to decide on whether to murder others or not that means you agree that morality is objective.


even atheistic morality is by and large objective, it is based on something called natural law and balanced upon utilitarian principles so even in atheistic societies murder is still and objective moral evil to be avoided or punished.


I don't know Martinez well, but I can assure you there isn't a single atheistic society where everyone is allowed to make up for himself what he considers moral against the principle of common good....you won't find a society where everyone is allowed to make up his mind on whether or not murder is OK.

Good to know you know that.Everything in life is subject to change.People who endorse abortions believe that the foetus is lifeless and cannot be called murder.Some religions endorse killing and I don't support murder.It was culturally right to support child marriage.A lot of things accepted as the moral truth of the past are not seen as so in the 21st century world.About the catholic church I have read about some atrocities committed against witches and all that including the thirty years war and the failed effort of the church to stop the spread of protestanism which they saw as morally right or the support for the inquisition.Morality is subjective sir because its human convictions that matter yes natural law does exists but some practices that were seen to have been divinely inspired are no longer required.Some totalitarian regime or people who support human oppression do so because they believe that some people were created to serve others.

Martinez19:
@Ladyhippolyta88 and Ubenedictus

Morality is biologically ingrained in mankind. Some atheists think that morality is subjective (cosmic sceptic and HardMirror) while some think that it is objective ( Sam Harris and myself). I think it's objective because :
1) there are a lot of acts that no matter how you try to argue for them, they will always be frown upon.
2) the fact that morality is biologically ingrained in us shows that nature has given us moral codes before hand. These moral codes are the same for all humans and are not discussed rather we just know them hence their objectivity. These moral codes play a role in our survival amongst ourselves.
3) cultural beliefs and religion are not source of morality instead they influence morality.

Thanks.

MrMystrO:
My Good friend, Morality has no place in the Natural law, So it is very much subjective because it is a human creation. When a Lion kills all the baby lions in a pride so the females can mate with him again, i ask you is it a Bad thing? Of course when you look at it from the Human perspective it is Bad but then who are you to judge the lions? judging the lion means questioning Nature because Nature has made it that way. This is just one example out of a million more. So at the end of the Day, The Deeply enlightened and philosophical minds know that Good and Bad, the basis of the human morality is exclusively a human construct and does not have any place in the Natural World whatsoever. We make up Laws that are "Moral" to us because we have to create a society where people can Live together and people cannot live together without Giving up their Subjective perceptions in Favor of Objective ones that suits everyone. Society bound by Law is in a very "deep" sense, Slavery, But a very useful one at that. I hope i was able to pass this across well enough. Peace.

Thanks.

Shugavee:
please no offense but what's going on here?? subjective objective?? Confused

It's about morality.

Ladyhippolyta88:
Thanks.

You Very Welcome.

MrMystrO:
My Good friend, Morality has no place in the Natural law, So it is very much subjective because it is a human creation. When a Lion kills all the baby lions in a pride so the females can mate with him again, i ask you is it a Bad thing? Of course when you look at it from the Human perspective it is Bad but then who are you to judge the lions? judging the lion means questioning Nature because Nature has made it that way. This is just one example out of a million more. So at the end of the Day, The Deeply enlightened and philosophical minds know that Good and Bad, the basis of the human morality is exclusively a human construct and does not have any place in the Natural World whatsoever. We make up Laws that are "Moral" to us because we have to create a society where people can Live together and people cannot live together without Giving up their Subjective perceptions in Favor of Objective ones that suits everyone. Society bound by Law is in a very "deep" sense, Slavery, But a very useful one at that. I hope i was able to pass this across well enough. Peace.

Have a kudos!

MrMystrO:
My Good friend, Morality has no place in the Natural law, So it is very much subjective because it is a human creation. When a Lion kills all the baby lions in a pride so the females can mate with him again, i ask you is it a Bad thing? Of course when you look at it from the Human perspective it is Bad but then who are you to judge the lions? judging the lion means questioning Nature because Nature has made it that way. This is just one example out of a million more. So at the end of the Day, The Deeply enlightened and philosophical minds know that Good and Bad, the basis of the human morality is exclusively a human construct and does not have any place in the Natural World whatsoever. We make up Laws that are "Moral" to us because we have to create a society where people can Live together and people cannot live together without Giving up their Subjective perceptions in Favor of Objective ones that suits everyone. Society bound by Law is in a very "deep" sense, Slavery, But a very useful one at that. I hope i was able to pass this across well enough. Peace.

then what do you understand by natural law?

we are not talking about animals we are talking about humans.

you claim morality has no basis in the natural world then you contradict yourself by saying it is biological ingrained in humans...abeg decide



2) the fact that morality is biologically ingrained in us
shows that nature has given us moral codes before
hand. These moral codes are the same for all
humans and are not discussed rather we just know
them hence their objectivity. These moral codes play
a role in our survival amongst ourselves.

if you believe the above then you agree with me that morality is objective and not a subjective case as ladyhus says

Ubenedictus:
then what do you understand by natural law?

we are not talking about animals we are talking about humans.

you claim morality has no basis in the natural world then you contradict yourself by saying it is biological ingrained in humans...abeg decide



2) the fact that morality is biologically ingrained in us
shows that nature has given us moral codes before
hand. These moral codes are the same for all
humans and are not discussed rather we just know
them hence their objectivity. These moral codes play
a role in our survival amongst ourselves.

if you believe the above then you agree with me that morality is objective and not a subjective case as ladyhus says

Morality is NOT biologically ingrained in Us! Where did you get that from? If morality was ingrained in us from Birth then We wouldn't need Laws! Everything we make up in our minds that is moral was taught to us.. we learnt it! I do not agree with you that morality is biologically ingrained in us because man by default IS A BRUTE. Remove the Laws and institutions created to hold us together and watch our so called morality fall like a Pack of cards. Try to understand that. If morality was biologically ingrained in us then you wouldn't have people still doing All the bad and horrible things in the world that happens daily. We are moral because we were institutionalized to be that Way, Not because we are Born that way. I believe I've made my point.