₦airaland Forum

Mrvalent:
Some of JOHESU'S demands are reasonable but some are far from being reasonable . You want to become consultants, then no problem.Take the UK for instance, there are consultant nurses in the UK who after 1-2 years of further studies become consultants in their fields. To say you want to earn the same salary or even close to the doctors' is far from reasonable. Just talk based on facts, check up the average salary of a consultant Physician and that of a Consultant nurse in the UK and you see that they are far apart. In fact the average salary of a junior doctor,even though lower, comes close to the average salary of a consultant nurse . Same applies to other paramedical professions. In fact such obtains in most parts of the world. Google is your very dear friend. Use it.
To think pharmacists who I venerate so much involve themselves with these people and try to chide the work of a Physician baffles me. Sometimes in life to try to prove your worth is an insult. So I won't scatter ground with examples but understand that the physician knowledge in diseases, interpretation of lab results,diagnosis, treatment plan and management of complications can't be paralleled by any paramedic. I am not even talking about a surgeon now. To tie these things needs deep understanding of sometimes complex concepts which is not acquired by the years of study alone but majorly by the content. I know there are medical schools in Nigeria that produce half baked doctors but that is the same for most other courses including paramedical courses so do not individualize medicine in Nigeria as the only source of half baked graduates.
Sometimes (not everytime) people that blame doctors for the death of their relatives are actually the ones to blame for their nonchalant attitude towards health cos some of these patients are as good as dead. I have seen examples of paramedics even on this thread who claim to be able to manage patients only to kill these patients or to even refer to the physician after its too late. Mind you, the unsuspecting public take these people as medical doctors so all the blame goes to the medical doctors after an unfortunate eventuality. I say with experience that most doctors out there are not actually mbbs graduates. I know a ND holder that now performs appendectomy after years of watching a doctor perform it. He has killed two patients and he is still practising. The unsuspecting public will blame a doctor ''mbbs holder'' for these deaths. Such occurs only in Nigeria.
Now, I am not saying there are no quack medical doctors but so also are half baked graduates in other paramedical courses.
Also, blaming the decadence of the health sector on the leadership of the hospitals being doctors is absolutely misguided in a nation with multisystemic decline. Name a sector in Nigeria doing well in recent times. Education? Defence? God help this country !
I am a graduate of the University of Ibadan and I have written and passed my PLAB 1 exam ,hoping to write PLAB 2 and move to UK in the next two years and leave all these rubbish behind. My fellow medical doctors, I challenge you to take an International exam if you have the capability and leave this country for the wannabe physicians.
P. S .. I support some of JOHESU'S demand and I respect the paramedics. But this envy and not knowing one's place tend to tilt me to the other side.
If you need information on the PLAB process, you can contact me.

Freddonance:
That was an oversight

portable4real:
I have been a silent follower on this most of the comments have read on this thread just force me out of the silent mode.

People shouting doctors, doctors, please even as a citizen I fear Nigerian doctors. And someone will come and say we should not talk about their misconduct here.

I have encountered so much in their hands and whenever I have relatives visiting the hospital I do make sure I find every opportunity for them to see someone I know his or her competency has no doubt.

most of Nigerian doctors belongs to killers association.

3 years ago, my grandma had fever and I suggested they should took her to the hospital. UITH.. ok,,to cut the story short,after all assessment and physical examination , she had a BP of 140/90. Antihypertensive was prescribed, as a student Nurse I told my mum she should hold on the drug that how come Dr just made a diagnosis of hypertension on first visit despite no pointer from her history.

I sacrifice to took the reading twice a day alternating it for a week.

the constant BP was 120/80. we didn't follow d Dr prescription. I just treated her for malaria. what made me to do so? I do pity some Pt on d ward cos some eventually die as a result of drug side effects and we are shouting Doctors as if they know all...

Ok to my ordeal as a patient.
anytime I have clinic during antenatal I make sure I took my folder to a well-known Doc or I just forget about clinic for the day.
During my delivery I was unfortunate in their hands again. A pad was stucked deep inside me just because the Dr wanted to suture me then, he forget to remove it and despite the pain and all the complained I was making then, he didn't take it serious. I had to call the doc even after discharge cos I wasn't feeling well. Not until I pleaded to someone to a colleague to come and check me at home and we discovered the pad wasn't removed. this was after 8 days. And yet you are here ranting Nurses can not work independently.


Another one did a bad suturing for me after my second child. I was in pain for more than 10 days. with analgesics and antibiotics. Not until I called a Aunt also a doc to help me check whay went wrong. She had to loose all the sutures, and I felt relieved. i asked what the problem was and she just asked me who did it in the first place. And I was told it wasn't done properly.

To come to think of it. I know my right as a Nurse. And this people are committing the blunders on me. But I just let it go because I can't and I don't want to be the one behind anyone's failure in life.

this Doc are not houseofficers, they are reg.

So those of you saying that Nursea cannot work without your order, it is a big fat lie. Have worked in privates and it is Nurses that does majority of the work. except surgery.

Nurses will even prescribed and all the docs will do is to document it in their report..

Also, in the teaching hospital where I was trained, I appreciate the Nurses their cos they savea the life of most patient in the surgical wards by implementing new ways and intervention in wound healing without the Doc knowing cos of they knows, let their blunders strike on patient and it is their Nurse enemy they will blame..

I as a person never applied for Medicine. Nursing is my calling. And am proud to be irrespective of the working condition.



So

optm:
clamp fr ursef...u knw an ND grad dt parades himself a med Dr nd u hvnt had him reported to ur body nd yet u say med drs re nt to blame. i wld blame as u re aware of such practice nd turn a blind eye yet claiming u hv pt's interest at heart; isnt dt insincerity on ur part? Most of the persons u tink re parading as meds may nt b johesu members. dey cld b sm of d auxilliary nurses trained by ur colleagues. those health professionals in johesu re guided by law in their practice nd hence can b held accountable nd prosecuted if dey practice outside their scope/ wht d law permits

optm:
clamp fr ursef...u knw an ND grad dt parades himself a med Dr nd u hvnt had him reported to ur body nd yet u say med drs re nt to blame. i wld blame as u re aware of such practice nd turn a blind eye yet claiming u hv pt's interest at heart; isnt dt insincerity on ur part? Most of the persons u tink re parading as meds may nt b johesu members. dey cld b sm of d auxilliary nurses trained by ur colleagues. those health professionals in johesu re guided by law in their practice nd hence can b held accountable nd prosecuted if dey practice outside their scope/ wht d law permits

Jman06:
Kid, have you ever been to pharmacy school Do you know that pharmacy students study the pathology of diseases from 400 level till graduation The Pharm.D graduates then spend extra year studying pathology of diseases.
Stop exposing your ignorance on public forum nau! Have you no shame

Jman06:
No be only pharmacognosis!

See them, enlighteners! Can't even spell correctly! Does he even know the correct name of the course


Mtcheeeww....kids everywhere

Hairyrapunzel:
Na by forcing yourself to do pathology for two years? You still do not know jack about diseases. Illiterate. What's in pathology that's making you feel like a superstar? Pathology that people who ain't pathologists (quacks and illiterates) taught you and you are feeling fly Be fighting for power to prescribe nothing you know about. Pathological diagnosis you no know, clinical diagnosis you still don't know jack about making it, treatment plan: nothing is still in your head.
Murderer.

Quacks and illiterates teaching you pathology and you are feeling fly. Illiterate. Your mates are doing great things in other countries like thinking of developing drugs for rare diseases, dispensing only prescribed drugs (apart from OTC's), doing research, nd you are here dreaming of prescribing drugs for diseases you know nothing about. Telling me that you studied pathology to prove that you can do what a medical doctor can do is the most stupid thing I have heard. People fail out from medicine in pathology class and still don't know jack about diseases.

Practicing quackery kills people. Stop it now or one day you will end up in jail.

Hairyrapunzel:
Na by forcing yourself to do pathology for two years? You still do not know jack about diseases. Illiterate. What's in pathology that's making you feel like a superstar? Pathology that people who ain't pathologists (quacks and illiterates) taught you and you are feeling fly Be fighting for power to prescribe nothing you know about. Pathological diagnosis you no know, clinical diagnosis you still don't know jack about making it, treatment plan: nothing is still in your head.
Murderer.

Quacks and illiterates teaching you pathology and you are feeling fly. Illiterate. Your mates are doing great things in other countries like thinking of developing drugs for rare diseases, dispensing only prescribed drugs (apart from OTC's), doing research, nd you are here dreaming of prescribing drugs for diseases you know nothing about. Telling me that you studied pathology to prove that you can do what a medical doctor can do is the most stupid thing I have heard. People fail out from medicine in pathology class and still don't know jack about diseases.

Practicing quackery kills people. Stop it now or one day you will end up in jail.

ayencoforequity:
Fellow Nigerians, I have been reading your posts/comments since this strike commenced. I strongly believe NMA needs to search their mind well and breed new generation of doctors. The breed/generation that promote justice, that cherish equity and loves fairness. Or else, wholistic and qualitative health care will persistently be a mirage to Nigerians. No society/sector where OPPRESSION AND SUPPRESSION prevail experience good growth and development. Nigeria health sector is one.

You may which to know / confirm these facts:

Are you aware that a Cleaner who makes the clinic comfortable for the medical doctors to work earn between than N 19,000-24,000 a month? Are you saying a doctor can earn 30-50 times the salary of a cleaners/lower cadre health workers and 6-12 times the salary of other health professionals? where in the good world do you see that? Further Increasing inequality gap would not do Nigeria society any good!

Medical doctors got salary increase in 2014 and another one recently to be effective from Jan 2018, skipped almost 2 times; Infact NMA members have benefited from pay rise about 3 times in four years, with arrears paid.
I WONDER WHY SOME PEOPLE ARE SUPPORTING ACT OF WICKEDNESS THAT HAS BEDEVILED ALMOST EVERY SEGMENTS OF THE NIGERIA SOCIETY? THIS IS EVIL THAT MUST BE CONDEMNED BY ALL. THIS IS PURELY MAN INHUMANITY TO MAN!

The relativity we are talking about has always been taken care by the provisions from ''Establishment office'.--
Are you aware that a clinician health worker on the same grade level collect half and in some case less than half of the call duty of a medical doctor, on same level?

Are you aware that other health workers- graduates have GL7-10 depending on profession, as their entry point into the public service while medical doctor has GL 12 and a medical specialist (consultant) has GL15 as their entry point.

Do you know that there is an allowance which is called specialist allowance which only medical doctors collect? That allowance in itself is more than the salary of many health professionals.

Do you also know that resident doctors in many of the developed nation collect lesser pay than senior health professionals?In addition, do you know that medical doctors and other health professionals in the same pay band earn the same salaries? Check out UK NHS pay band.

Do you know that medical practitioners work in other sectors of Nigeria society and their consolidated basic pay with other professionals are the same? that ALLOWANCES, ENTRY POINTS INTO SERVICE Differentiate what each professional take home? Check it out with NNPC, CBN, IMMIGRATION etc. The same is obtainable in the salary scale being used at the MINISTRY OF HEALTH.

How can two party signed an agreement that is binding on the third party without the knowledge and presence of the third party? How can such an agreement be enforced on the third party whose right to freedom, expression and collective bargaining is enshrined in the law of the land and best practices in the world?

How can another employer in the same sector determine and fix the salary of another employer in the sector? who is the arbiter?

They tell the public lies that JOHESU is asking for equal pay with medical doctors, that even cleaners want to be a consultant. How on earth could leaders be telling such lies in order to perpetuate evil plot? Prior to 2014, was the pay ever equal? NO! JOHESU was simply asking, 'increase my own too like my colleagues; we go to the same market and we work in the same sector''.--JUSTICE EQUITY FAIRNESS, simple!

All these are verifiable facts which you can confirm in case you and many others are ignorant about the reason for the strike and persistent problem in the Nigeria health sector.

LET'S ALL REASON TOGETHER AND STOP THE PLAN TO KILL OTHER PROFESSIONS IN THE HEALTH SECTOR IN NIGERIA; THIS PLAN CAN ONLY INCREASE THE WOES OF THE NATION--Poorer quality in term of care, increase desertion of other health profession aside Medicine, increase unemployment, increase hatred and animosity, increase insecurity within and outside the system, a poorer nation etc

HEALTH SYSTEM IN NIGERIA CAN ONLY THRIVE AND POSITIVELY AFFECT THE LIVES OF NIGERIAN AND NIGERIA ECONOMY WHEN JUSTICE, EQUITY AND FAIRNESS ARE ALLOWED TO REIGN SUPREME IN OUR DECISION MAKING PROCESSES.

GOD BLESS EVERYONE SUPPORTING JUSTICE, EQUITY AND FAIRNESS TO ALL!

Mrvalent:
[color=#006600][/color]
Dear ma/sir , I reported him. thanks and bye �

Thanks18:
I wonder how some people who claimed to be learned reason like a dullard. You rightly stated that corruption is the bane of health sector in Nigeria. so corruption is imaginary in this case abi? The health managers of the sector from primary to tertiary level are grossly dominated by NMA from 80s till date. Consequently, the rot in sector started from late 80s. The problem of Nigeria health sector lies squarely in leadership failure and incompetence of the managers. And if we are sincere in the bid to revive the sector, we should demonstrate will and determination and imbibe evidenced based ideas from developed and best health system in the world. The whole health sector should be privatized(govt might support by giving oversight and grants) and leadership open to competent and efficient administrators from any discipline in the health team.

shullamite:
At least its clear where the problem in the health sector is coming from now. The doctors don't want other staff to enjoy a little increament of salary even after government has increased their slararies more than Three times in in four years. This is just a case of wickedness and man's inhumanity to man. The doctors are not the employer of labour but they are telling government what to do. It's a case of eating alone and wanting other people to die of hunger even though there is excess food to serve everybody. Let the world see how wicked the doctors are in Nigeria.

Let me tell you the truth early this year the government of Canada increased doctors salary but the doctors refused the increament and told the government to use the money to pay other health workers and improve the facilities in the hospitals for patients to enjoy. But in Nigeria the case is opposite.

Elueme:
I wish u could digest the NMA position before posting this crap..
NMA is not against pay rise for anybody but ask that relativity be sacrosanct according to international best practice.. A doctor with several academic battering and fellowship struggle cannot be on same salary scale with a nurse or pharmacist.. forget the age and all, the quality of service isn't same irrespective of how old one has been in service. We must learn to respect professionalism in this country.
Johesu was formed to hang up against the doctors in the health sector because they feel with their strength they can arm twist the government.. Some of it's demands ate briddled with ego, jealousy and desire to reap where one didn't sow. The door is wide open for any who wishes to study medicine. No following short cut, go back to school and be accorded same status.

obi4eze:
NMA are very greedy set of people.

I'm so happy to know that the general public is becoming aware of the greediness of these set of people.

Jman06:
Kid, go and read for your JAMB!!!

I won't join issue with you again because it's obvious you are a kid!

AbuadStudent:
Nowhere in the world is it done, that doctors are paid the same as other health care workers. This johesu are asking for impossible demands.

emmanuelex1:
You are stupid, and I am not a group. If you are a doctor run a test on your self. Stupid fool. My in law was also saved by God and Italian doctors who blasted the stupid Nigeria doctors for poor diagnosis for same illness that killed my dad 2 years before. My mistake was trusting bleeping Nigeria doctors who only know how to fight Johesu. Please travel out and see how wack Nigeria Doctors are, and also see how doctors work with Nurses, pharmacist, Lab scientist and Dietitians to achieve wellness so fast.

SLYX:
All this nonsense typing, is it about the foolish Nigerian doctors that know nothing. Why do you think President Buhari had to travel for medical check up outside. It's crystal clear that Nigerian doctors are not worth it at all. I have first hand experience of how doctors in teaching hospitals managed my mom's health almost to death. Just one visit to a Turkish hospital, all their wrong diagnosis were revealed. And today my mom is alive and strong. I rather die than submit myself to be treated by a Nigerian doctor

frankpro27:
I tell u. They knw nothing. If only pharmacists will start documenting their medication errors, all these problems wud be put to rest.

utenwuson:
doctors are mad... this is exactly what is playing out in NASU and ASUU, without the nurse, the lab scientists, the register and all other health related staff, doctors are crap, what's doctors problem with a body agitating for their own increment and other benefit when they no longer belong to same body? go to hospitals now and you see why doctors are useless without this people.... doctors prescription is what nurses use to administer, we all need each other Abeg.

dechriscool:
The gang up against doctors is not only by allied health workers but also by some Nigerians. I did a post about how JOHESU members beat up Doctors at NAUTH just to registered their graviances against doctors in course o f this their strike .That post didn't see the day light.

However,the disparity in salary structure between doctors and JOHESU members can't be overemphasized.Read the statement of facts below to guard on the activities in the hospital

THE PATIENT COMES TO THE HOSPITAL TO SEE THE DOCTOR.

There are three group of people in the Hospital worldwide;

1. Doctor
2. Patients
3. Hospital support staff.

-A patient comes to a medical emergency unit rushed by his relatives.
-The DOCTOR sends for his file/folder to be retrieved by the MEDICAL RECORDS STAFF.
-The DOCTOR takes history from PATIENT and examines the PATIENT.
-The DOCTOR makes a diagnosis (or set of diagnosis-differential diagnosis).
-The DOCTOR asks the PHARMACIST to supply the drugs for the particular disease.
-The DOCTOR asks the NURSE to administer the drugs.
-The DOCTOR asks the PATIENT to go to Radiology department to do an X-RAY/CT-SCAN.
-The DOCTOR in the Radiology department (RADIOLOGIST) asks the RADIOGRAPHER to do the X-ray. The DOCTOR in the Radiology department (RADIOLOGIST) interprets the X-ray and writes a report to be taken to the DOCTOR in the Emergency.
-The DOCTOR in the Emergency unit uses the X-ray report to further treat the patient.
-The DOCTOR sends the PATIENT to the laboratory to do some tests.
-The DOCTOR in the laboratory (PATHOLOGIST) asks the LABORATORY SCIENTIST or LABORATORY TECHNICIAN to do the test or do the test himself if necessary.
The DOCTOR in the laboratory (PATHOLOGIST) interprets the report and sends the patient back to the doctor in the emergency.
-The DOCTOR evaluates the patient and asks for more drugs from the PHARMACY for the NURSE to administer.
-The DOCTOR admits the patient to the ward if patient is not good to go or discharges the patient if he is good.
-THE DOCTOR in the ward keeps on seeing the patient and evaluating his needs. THE DOCTOR calls for the assistance of the NURSE, PHARMACIST, LABORATORY SCIENTIST/TECHNICIAN, RADIOGRAPHER when the need arises.
But there is always a need for the DOCTOR to be in CONTACT with the progress of the patient.
-THE DOCTOR DISCHARGES the PATIENT home or CERTIFIES him dead as the case may be.

IT BEGINS WITH THE DOCTOR and PATIENT from admission and ends with DOCTOR and PATIENT on discharge from the hospital.

1. DOCTORS WORLDWIDE are LEADERS of the health sector in the best of centers.
-Google LIST OF BEST HOSPITALS IN THE WORLD.
A list of many hospital according to ranking would come up.
-Take the first 5, or 10, or 20 hospitals ONE BY ONE.
-For each hospital Google it's leadership.
-All would show you that the doctor is the head.
The CEO/CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER of all the hospitals have MD or MBBS as their basic qualification. (Most of these doctors have no any other non-medical qualification).

PLEASE GOOGLE FOR YOURSELF
-THE BEST HOSPITALS in the world.
-Then LEADERSHIP OF EACH HOSPITAL.

2.)DOCTORS ARE PAID FAR BETTER THAN OTHER SUPPORT STAFF WORLDWIDE.
This pay gets far different when the DOCTOR is a SPECIALIST: CONSULTANT (UK/INDIA) or an ATTENDING PHYSICIAN (USA).

Google the best hospitals in the world and the salary of the workers.

Google for yourself.
Do not be fed with lies.

3.) CAREER PROGRESSION for DOCTORS.
Doctors have two pathways for progression in Nigeria:
i. NORMAL CIVIL SERVICE where you are promoted to the next grade after every 3years.
ii. POSTGRADUATE MEDICAL EDUCATION, where you enroll into residency and is only promoted after rigorous academic and practical training and passing of professional examinations.
After NYSC the doctor pays heavily to write an exam called primaries. After the primaries he/she undergo extensive training as a REGISTRAR and after 3-5years write the PART 1 exams to become a SENIOR REGISTRAR. After another 3-5years he writes another exam to become a FELLOW/CONSULTANT. Each of PART 1 and 2 exams advance the doctor only one grade level (e.g Part 1 exam after 3-5 years moves a DOCTOR from grade 12 to 13. Part 2 after another 3-5moves a doctor from grade 13-14).
The pass rate of these exams generally is between 10-30%.
Its difficult to progress through the postgraduate pathway. You may spend more than 6years without promotion.

GOOGLE THE TRUTH.

yassinattah:
U know what !
Criosly u only see what is in front of u,
U dont lift ur gaze up to look at the bigger view, to the extent that u keep shifting the goal post due to ur narrow mindedness,
when u've highlighted a point,u derail 4rm making d appropriate logical explanation,
Instead u r just concocting what doesnt make sense to read.

Mtseww

As a Dr criosly replying ur comments is just like trying to remove water from a mirage.

hydeka:
No be small local champions o

These guys don't know that we cover their Bleep ups in front of patients when they write all those nonsense prescriptions...and most of them just copy the consultant. If you leave them alone to work, na wahala be that. Abeg, let me not open their nyash here

I really respect the few who are honest enough to ask for assistance from other professionals. Those are the real doctors.

Isacisse:
Beautifully Scripted and also a Beautiful Nonsense.
The “patient” and not the doctor is the primary target, who y’all are here to serve.
If you want to talk about success in management, The Pharmacist should boast of that laurel but funny enough I have never seen them do.
They develop a product for the patient,
Educate you on the Indications, adverse effects, dosage but you claim you are the point of Call alone.
Are you blind or you intentionally see with your head. Look at the Billionaires in Pharmaceutical Industries, funding research for you people just to have a comprehensive data to cater for your need in the hospital to sever the Patient Properly.
You just feel threatened and assume their is Competition or someone coming for your job.
What I’m against is,You Doctors of Med & Surgery should stick to your thing and allow competent hands take over the management of the hospital and Ministry of health. You’re all fraud amassing wealth for yourself, and shouting no money every time. CMD’s are the greatest thieves, that’s why they don’t want anyone to come close to the administration to understand what they are doing.
Grants from Multinationals, Donations, Help from NGO’s, FG Allocation, and Internally generates revenue and you monkeys still blame the FG for the Bad State of the Health Sector. ���
These thieves if they are going on strike, take advantage of people’s sympathy and be shouting bad state and poor working conditions.
Mad people that don’t know Management. Common call a cleaner to clean there place of work, they can’t. Who has ever been to any General or Teaching hospital emergency wards. These monkeys their don’t know when to call a cleaner to do their job talkless of their supposedly professional colleagues which they assume to be enemy and they claim leader. ���
Leader my foot, yeye dey worry all of una.
These people requested for a 20% increment and you monkies want to die ��.
Armed robbers if it’s sure for anyone of you here. I challenge you show us your pay slips and see if ordinary graduate on the street will not feel like committing suicide. You just blackmail the government and take advantage of everything.
Scrap Hospital na and let’s see who will suffer You or the Patient.
Monkeys be thinking they are the most important ��. Let it ring Patient Patient Patient first and not you. Get your fact straight. International best practice allows the Nurse to see Outpatient, Pharmacist Outpatient, but laye laye you want to do all and at the end you can’t. You will now be giving lie lie fact 10,000 doctors to 1 patient Barawo. A consultant which is very easy to attain if you have money � will see 10 patients and motherfucker will leave until next week but will be collecting about 700k and above, a scam he can replicate in many places and get away with it.

God will judge you, if you play the patient card here. If not incompetence, why are you scared.
Architect, Engineers( Civil, Electrical etc) work with everyone to erect a beautiful edifice. I have nerve heard of the part where anyone claimed Superiority over the other or insist on working alone without the other but you monkeys in the health sectors won’t let the masses have peace. God will judge you all

danilmo:
pls u self retaliate by employing auxiliary doctor if ur opportune to have a hospital..

lol..

am a medic and the only people I ll love to employ in my hospital are the med lab or rather microbiologist.. other sector na trained ordinary sales boy who can dispense drug in place of a pharmacist, a trained lady as nurse,

employ professional nurse and pharmacist say wetin wen I can actually train cheap ones myself.. hian ,


Just thesame thing my brother do in his hospital.

Ang88:
Some of the people commenting here are student doctors... Student doctors don't touch patients in the ward. They only come to the ward to learn during wardround... House officers to consultants are the people who touch patients... About 96percent of student doctors don't know anything about practicals... About 50percent of house officers don't know practicals...the hard truth is their biggest reality...talking from experience

Cityguy:
Student doctors.... don'ttouch patients?... 50% house officers don't know practicals? Where did you get the statistics? We are in deep shit this country, walahi.

Ang88:
I used the word "about'',meaning estimated value... I'm a registered nurse, working in government hospital, so I know this things