DoctorAlien:


Bro, all these things are what you think. I will not be surprised too if you say GOD is not omnipotent just because He did not create a square circle.

By the way, a perfect world with freewill was existing until imperfection came in through the only door through which it could have come in: freewill.

in other words, God is incapable of creating such a world?

MuttleyLaff:


The comprehension and significance of the above emboldened (i.e. ... spoken for by the merits of Jesus) went over your head

Think about it this way, free legal aid, the right to counsel and the right to a fair trial

If anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Glad saying, it doesnt really matter, it came out of your mouth and hand

ok

johnydon22:


LOL so the serpent was punished for what it didn't do?

Using the word "punish" on the serpent is really meaningless. You could say GOD implemented a change on the anatomy and physiology of the serpent at that moment, because even the serpent does not have a mind with which to feel that it has been wronged or wrongly punished. But the message to Satan and to Adam and Eve has been passed by that act.

DoctorAlien:


Using the word "punish" on the serpent is really meaningless. You could say GOD implemented a change on the anatomy and physiology of the serpent at that moment, because even the serpent does not have a mind with which to feel that it has been wronged or wrongly punished. But the message to Satan and to Adam and Eve has been passed by that act.

Genesis 3; 13 -14
Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, "Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.


***

And again, the whole story seems to explicitly show the serpent did it not the devil.

DoctorAlien:


More like to remove whatever point Satan could have raised.

Why does he care what Point rebellious Satan has to raise to the extent he had to put man at risk by planting the tree knowing man will fail.

They were still willfully obeying GOD until Satan "deceived" Eve.

They were Willfully obeying God until God planted the tree which gave Satan the opportunity to tempt them which led to the fall of man.

You see, the whole thing since Satan's rebellion has been to prove to the whole of creation why rebellion should not exist, and why it is just for GOD to annihilate rebellion and those who practise it, which is what GOD will do in the end.

So God had to set man up to prove that rebellion should not exist? What are u even saying?

johnydon22:
Seems Jesus coming isn't really that necessary to gain salvation then?

Is that what you understood? Would we be talking salvation for ANY human being without Jesus Christ? It is simply, even Adam, from the beginning, was intimated that Jesus would be coming. Gen. 3:15. So, From Adam until Jesus came, people had faith in Jesus.

Some are convinced that Obama is a reptilian from another planet. Doesn't matter really.

Well, you may still be convinced one day.

DoctorAlien:
Is that what you understood? Would we be talking salvation for ANY human being without Jesus Christ? It is simply, even Adam, from the beginning, was intimated that Jesus would be coming. Gen. 3:15. So, From Adam until Jesus came, people had faith in Jesus.

Isn't that the implication of what you said?

Well, you may still be convinced one day.

True. What is truer is that it is more likely that you figure it out

DoctorAlien:
In the spirit of being sincere, tell me, what if someone doesn't want the remedy offered in Jesus Christ? Should GOD force it on such a person? You, will you say GOD is fair if He does that? By the way, Jesus' rising from the dead is very consistent with the entire Bible.


If the Bible is true, then I know that no other hell exists other than the one GOD is going to unleash on evildoers at the end.

Jesus' resurrection has tons of contradictory verses. Having said that, the Bible is not true and it's more heretical to the Jews.

frank317:

Why does he care what Point rebellious Satan has to raise to the extent he had to put man at risk by planting the tree knowing man will fail.

LOL. Satan himself was and is still the risk. Think for a while that we have the 10 Commandments to obey today, just like they had a specific commandment to obey concerning the tree. Can we say that the risk to disobeying the 10 Commandments are the commandments themselves or Satan who tempts us to disobey? By the way, Jesus, who lived His whole life without defaulting in any of the 10 Commandments, showed that the commandments themselves are not a risk to keeping them.

They were Willfully obeying God until God planted the tree which gave Satan the opportunity to tempt them which led to the fall of man.



So God had to set man up to prove that rebellion should not exist? What are u even saying?

LOL. GOD did not "set man up". He didn't!

johnydon22:

Genesis 3; 13 -14
Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, "Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.


***

And again, the whole story seems to explicitly show the serpent did it not the devil.

LOL, imagine the situation nah. Satan did not come in his true form, but came in the form of a serpent. All Eve knew was that she encountered a serpent talking to her. She was saying what she encountered. That was why she said "the serpent deceived me". Perhaps Satan was so masterful with his deceit and charm that Eve hadn't even suspected that it could have been Satan who came in the form of a serpent.

johnydon22:

in other words, God is incapable of creating such a world?

Which world?

Omooba224:
Jesus' resurrection has tons of contradictory verses.

It has none bro.

Having said that, the Bible is not true and it's more heretical to the Jews.

The new testament may be heretical to the Jews but it does not mean it is not true.

DoctorAlien:
While this issue is inconsequential to salvation, and admitting that I do not have full knowledge of GOD's counsels and ways (indeed I have only a microscopic little),
I would say perhaps to leave a physical (perhaps temporary) testimony of His displeasure at Satan for deceiving man, registered on the creature in the form of which Satan came.
The serpent is not a conscentious creature, and so it does not make meaning saying that it was being punished for what it "did".
Satan is the one who is going to be destroyed at last.

The serpent was punished for what it did and/or didn't do

johnydon22:
LOL so the serpent was punished for what it didn't do?

Yes, when satan entered the serpent, it had options it didnt take

DoctorAlien:
Using the word "punish" on the serpent is really meaningless.
You could say GOD implemented a change on the anatomy and physiology of the serpent at that moment,

Correct, GOD did implement a change on the anatomy and physiology of the serpent at that moment
Few know this, even Adam and Eve had an anatomy change as well.

DoctorAlien:
because even the serpent does not have a mind with which to feel that it has been wronged or wrongly punished.
But the message to Satan and to Adam and Eve has been passed by that act.

Animals have feelings, the serpent wasnt an exception to this

johnydon22:
Genesis 3; 13 -14
Then the LORD God said to the woman,
"What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

So the LORD God said to the serpent,
"Because you have done this, "Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.

***

And again, the whole story seems to explicitly show the serpent did it not the devil.

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made."
- Genesis 3:1a

If you read Genesis 3:1a carefully, the word "subtil" in that verse, has the meaning of having or showing sharp powers of judgement
or having or showing an ability to accurately assess situations or people and turn this to one's advantage

I earlier said the serpent should have know better,
as the serpent was not just at the top end of the pecking order
and not thick or dumb but was as a matter of fact intelligent, as well

The serpent's antithesis, its demotion, its fall from grace to literally grass and eventual extinction are an indictment

johnydon22:
hahahahaha ok.

johnydon22:
ok

[img]https://s1/images/MuttWipesHandSmile.gif[/img]
johnnnnnydon!

It was Lucifer, another Morning Star, not Jesus, the Anointed Sun/Son of Righteousness.

DoctorAlien:


Bro, all these things are what you think. I will not be surprised too if you say GOD is not omnipotent just because He did not create a square circle.

By the way, a perfect world with freewill was existing until imperfection came in through the only door through which it could have come in: freewill.

Bro, you are contradicting yourself, : a perfect world can never become imperfect. Also, perfection and freewill cannot coexist; in a perfect world, the word and concept of freewill won't be a term.....

In a supposed perfect world, if you get punished/persecuted for your actions, then freewill didn't exist in the first place, likewise it means the world wasn't perfect from the get-go, in fact concept/words like persecution won't be a thing.

DoctorAlien:
Bro, all these things are what you think.
I will not be surprised too if you say GOD is not omnipotent just because He did not create a square circle.

By the way, a perfect world with freewill was existing until imperfection came in through the only door through which it could have come in: freewill.

topdee:
Bro, you are contradicting yourself,:
a perfect world can never become imperfect.
Also, perfection and freewill cannot coexist; in a perfect world, the word and concept of freewill won't be a term.....

In a supposed perfect world, if you get punished/persecuted for your actions, then freewill didn't exist in the first place,
likewise it means the world wasn't perfect from the get-go, in fact concept/words like persecution won't be a thing.

A perfect dish can be spoiled with a tinge of salt to many

The cooked dish is perfect until one person decides to render it inedible with too much salt

topdee:


Bro, you are contradicting yourself, : a perfect world can never become imperfect. Also, perfection and freewill cannot coexist; in a perfect world, the word and concept of freewill won't be a term.....

In a supposed perfect world, if you get punished/persecuted for your actions, then freewill didn't exist in the first place, likewise it means the world wasn't perfect from the get-go, in fact concept/words like persecution won't be a thing.

Perhaps we mean different things by the word "freewill"?

For my argument, freewill is in relation to GOD, and it is simply the ability to choose willingly either to keep GOD's law, or to disobey it.

This guys never get tired of defending bible stories...

DoctorAlien:
LOL. Satan himself was and is still the risk. Think for a while that we have the 10 Commandments to obey today, just like they had a specific commandment to obey concerning the tree. Can we say that the risk to disobeying the 10 Commandments are the commandments themselves or Satan who tempts us to disobey? By the way, Jesus, who lived His whole life without defaulting in any of the 10 Commandments, showed that the commandments themselves are not a risk to keeping them.



LOL. GOD did not "set man up". He didn't!

10 commandment came after man fell... Its a correctional instruction not a preventory one

Doctoralien said serpent was not punished.. Lol. His form was only changed to leave a mark.. I not fit shout.

muttleyflall said serpent was punished for allowing the devil possess it... Serpent is now as conscious as man even with conscience too... Lol.

The bible never even said Satan losses serpent. The serpent on its own free will spoke with eve and deceived her and God cursed it without even mentioning Satan...

Everyone seem to be making things up

frank317:


10 commandment came after man fell... Its a correctional instruction not a preventory one

Not true bro. The principles underlying (and which are summarized and suitably adapted for man in) the 10 Commandments are eternal, and have always been there. That Law is moral standard with which GOD rules creation, and it is a reflection of His Character.

frank317:
10 commandment came after man fell... Its a correctional instruction not a preventory one

What point are you trying to make with this comment?

frank317:
Doctoralien said serpent was not punished.. Lol.
His form was only changed to leave a mark.. I not fit shout.

muttleyflall said serpent was punished for allowing the devil possess it...
Serpent is now as conscious as man even with conscience too... Lol.

The bible never even said Satan losses serpent.
The serpent on its own free will spoke with eve and deceived her and God cursed it without even mentioning Satan...

Everyone seem to be making things up

The evidence is there in the bible that the serpent wasnt your average animal
The bible said the serpent was the sharpest tool in the box, its no wonder satan used it
however pigs less intelligient than the serpent, knew what to do when legion possessed them

frank317, just like the serpent, you get possessed, by whatever you expose yourself to.
You can be possessed by whatever you permit yourself to come under its influence.
All it takes is, a lapse of judgement, a drop in guard, an error of judgement, a metal lapse,
a moment of being emotionally vulnerable for possession to take place

Satan has a free pass, and so with it, enters everywhere on earth with it.

Satan doesnt really need a green light before popping head in or around anywhere
Satan has already being and still is here, on this thread, reading aptly with keen interest

Satan enters you frank317, I and everyone.
It's not just Judas, remember the serpent, remember Peter
(i.e. when and where in Matthew 16:23, Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan!'')

frank317, you might be giving in and yielding to being a tool, right now, in satan's hand

MuttleyLaff:


A perfect dish can be spoiled with a tinge of salt to many

The cooked dish is perfect until one person decides to render it inedible with too much salt

There is nothing like perfect dish...what you, as an individual, regard as a perfect dish, maybe imperfect to others, that is why when you go to restaurants they put sauces and spices on your table that may help meet your cravings.

What I was trying to say is that, a perfect world doesn't exist. A supposed perfect world can only become imperfect if its supposed perfection is actually a subjective phenomenon that was merely termed perfect by the creator. If that world becomes imperfect, it means it was influenced by probably another deity equally or more powerful than that creator (assuming the creators are entities), which generally means that world wasn't objectively perfect in the first place.

The summary is that if external factors can influence imperfection, it means that that supposed perfection was indeed subjective and never perfect.

DoctorAlien:


Not true bro. The principles underlying (and which are summarized and suitably adapted for man in) the 10 Commandments are eternal, and have always been there. That Law is moral standard with which GOD rules creation, and it is a reflection of His Character.

Stop twisting words bro... God planted a tree and asked man not to eat it. Man was not corrupt before he ate the fruit... If man is not corrupt, there will be no need for ten commandments...

Thou shall not kill... Only a corrupt man will think of killing

DoctorAlien:


LOL, imagine the situation nah. Satan did not come in his true form, but came in the form of a serpent. All Eve knew was that she encountered a serpent talking to her. She was saying what she encountered. That was why she said "the serpent deceived me". Perhaps Satan was so masterful with his deceit and charm that Eve hadn't even suspected that it could have been Satan who came in the form of a serpent.

That verse seem to not collaborate with what seem like a personal injection to the story to maintain doctrinal correctness.

Read that verse again.

" then the serpent was the wisest of all the animals "

"And God cursed the serpent"

It was the serpent which is wise and chatty. Read the verse again, God cursee the serpent for its transgression.

frank317:
Doctoralien said serpent was not punished.. Lol. His form was only changed to leave a mark.. I not fit shout.

muttleyflall said serpent was punished for allowing the devil possess it... Serpent is now as conscious as man even with conscience too... Lol.

The bible never even said Satan losses serpent. The serpent on its own free will spoke with eve and deceived her and God cursed it without even mentioning Satan...

Everyone seem to be making things up

Lol.. It's funny but it's hapepening

DoctorAlien:


Perhaps we mean different things by the word "freewill"?

For my argument, freewill is in relation to GOD, and it is simply the ability to choose willingly either to keep GOD's law, or to disobey it.

Exactly! I was explaining in relation to GOD. There is nothing like freewill if there are repercussions: if one can be persecuted as a result of the supposed freewill, then the concept of freewill is an illusion, it's a hoax.

MuttleyLaff:
What point are you trying to make with this comment?

Its a response to his post

The evidence is there in the bible that the serpent wasnt your average animal
The bible said the serpent was the sharpest tool in the box, its no wonder satan used it
however pigs less intelligient than the serpent, knew what to do when legion possessed them

There is no evidence to this bro... It said the serpent was the wisest among the beast of the field (perhaps wiser than dumb Adam and eve)... It never said Satan saw it as the sharpest tool to use... The serpent deceived man... Not Satan. Read ur bible again. god cursed serpent and never mentioned Satan.

frank317, just like the serpent, you get possessed, by whatever you expose yourself to.
You can be possessed by whatever you permit yourself to come under its influence.
All it takes is, a lapse of judgement, a drop in guard, an error of judgement, a metal lapse,
a moment of being emotionally vulnerable for possession to take place

Well, I am not possessed... Just like how u are accusing serpent of being possessed... Bible never said serpent was possessed... U made it all up just as u are making it up I am possessed. Christianity is all about making up stories in ur head and calling it fact.

Satan has a free pass, and so with it, enters everywhere on earth with it.

Satan doesnt really need a green light before popping head in or around anywhere
Satan has already being and still is here, on this thread, reading aptly with keen interest

Satan is all in ur head.. I have never seen him and I don't believe is exist.

Satan enters you frank317, I and everyone.
It's not just Judas, remember the serpent, remember Peter
(i.e. when and where in Matthew 16:23, Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan!'')

Judas was not possessed by Satan... Another one of ur made up lies.

frank317, you might be giving in and yielding to being a tool, right now, in satan's hand

I am not surprised at this statement... With someone who makes up stories ... U are becoming very good in the art. How about seeing me as Satan himself.

frank317:


Stop twisting words bro... God planted a tree and asked man not to eat it. Man was not corrupt before he ate the fruit... If man is not corrupt, there will be no need for ten commandments...

Thou shall not kill... Only a corrupt man will think of killing

Who said if man was not corrupt, there would be no need for the 10 commandments? What then would have been the standard of right and wrong without the 10 commandments? Understand that the Law, the principles of which are summarized for man in the 10 commandments, is the standard of right and wrong with which GOD rules creation.

LOL. It is not really true that "only a corrupt man will think of killing". Killing is sin, a violation of the law(1 Jn. 3:4). But before Satan sinned in heaven, (of which the Law was the only standard by which his acts could have been adjudged sin) he was not corrupt. Sin is really a mystery, as the Bible says.(2 Thess. 2:7).

topdee:


Exactly! I was explaining in relation to GOD. There is nothing like freewill if there are repercussions: if one can be persecuted as a result of the supposed freewill, then the concept of freewill is an illusion, it's a hoax.

It is like this; For only 100naira you get a popcorn for free ... Lol

topdee:


Exactly! I was explaining in relation to GOD. There is nothing like freewill if there are repercussions: if one can be persecuted as a result of the supposed freewill, then the concept of freewill is an illusion, it's a hoax.

That whatever course of action which one chooses to embark on has a consequence does not in anyway hinder one from willfully embarking on such an action, even when one has full knowledge of those consequences.

topdee:
There is nothing like perfect dish...
what you, as an individual, regard as a perfect dish, maybe imperfect to others,
that is why when you go to restaurants they put sauces and spices on your table that may help meet your cravings.

We dont put sauces and spices on our table because two people always make the perfect dish:
My Mom and my better half

Craving is associated with abnormal desire

topdee:
What I was trying to say is that, a perfect world doesn't exist.
A supposed perfect world can only become imperfect if its supposed perfection is actually a subjective phenomenon that was merely termed perfect by the creator.
If that world becomes imperfect, it means it was influenced by probably another deity equally or more powerful than that creator
(assuming the creators are entities), which generally means that world wasn't objectively perfect in the first place.

The summary is that if external factors can influence imperfection,
it means that that supposed perfection was indeed subjective and never perfect.

We live in an imperfect world
Prior to where we are, with the exception of mentioning man, each stage of creation and the entire package were pronounced good
There were six "it was good" before the finale seventh, God looked upon all that He had made "it was very good"
The amount of times "good" was declared is seven.
The number seven signifies and represents perfection, there are numerous examples in the bible to illustrate this with
but alas, there is a twist to the number seven, which you might find interesting and possibly appreciate I shared it

The twist, is that, the number seven also is a sign that indicates knowing that nothing is exactly as it seems
and that reality often can be hidden behind illusions.