budaatum:
If I want to, I will. But considering it's sub 5^o where I am, I'd rather not at the moment, thanks.

MuttleyLaff:
Who streaks in sub 5^o anyway. Besides you'll get done by the Old Bill for indecent exposure or get bundled off to see a shrink

budaatum:
Don't mind him. He thinks he can tell me what to do!

Ihedinobi3:

I realize and recognize that you may be new to Nairaland (your profile and your posting style suggest that you, in fact, are) and it seems to me as well that you are an atheist and it has been my observation that atheists assume that embracing atheism confirms that they are astronomically intelligent - certainly more intelligent than those of us who stick with the Bible. But debate is where you actually demonstrate that you are making arguments worthy of being considered and received. You should not expect your claims to go unchallenged. You should be prepared to properly defend everything you say especially when you take the intellectual high ground.

Now, it is YOU who made those claims about biology, not some other person. It is YOU then who must defend it.

It is also YOU who made claims about limits as an objection to free will. So, it is YOU too who must defend it.

Animals organize themselves into groups, it is true, but I would be surprised if the far greater sophistication of human organization is not evident to you. Human beings do not merely organize themselves into groups, they do so in very important ways to reflect their attitudes to God and to one another. This is rather self-evident. I doubt very much that you will find any ant colonies making laws involving homosexuality and gender identification. Do you consider that such things are possible?

HellVictorinho:

Atheism is nothing to me.
Religion is nothing to me.
All philosophies are nothing to me.
I can't always be what I am and I am always what I can't be.
And,Humans are complex beings that have the ability to reason far,or rather,overly better than animals.
Humans can even do better than this.
But,whether God/First Cause/Mr Designer exists or not, All things are ultimately Meaningless.
You shouldn't be amazed by anything but for a moment.
Reality is a bitch.
And we smile at her to prove we don't give a damn about her games.

XxSabrinaxX:
If you knew enough about the laws of physics, and you had a powerful enough computer, theoretically you could perfectly simulate the entire universe from start to finish. When I say perfect, I mean perfect. In our simulation, every thing that has ever happened in this universe and ever will happen in this universe will happen exactly the same way in our simulation. Every thought that every living being has ever had, every action that every living being has ever taken, will occur in exactly the same manner every single time the simulation is run.
That means that no matter what, all of your thoughts and actions you've ever had and will ever have, have been predetermined by the laws of physics. Nothing you do or think can possibly change that fact because you were always going to have those thoughts and were always going to do those things. Everything you do is because the creator determined that's what you have to do when he set the laws of physics into motion with the Big Bang. You do not have a choice. Free will is an illusion because we are bound by the laws of physics.

The only circumstance in which we wouldn't be bound by the laws of physics is if the creator admitted that his creation was flawed from the start and needed to be modified, so he intervened at some place and time to cause a change in events. In which case free will would still not exist.
Rejection of Yahweh as the demiurge is not something I have chosen. He predetermined that I would be born under the circumstances that I was, and that the chemicals in my brain would react a certain way to cause me to feel this way, and that I would sin.

Taking this argument to its logical conclusion demonstrates that nothing anybody ever does is "evil" because they never had a choice in the first place. It wasn't Hitler's fault that his brain didn't work right and caused him to kill all those people and then himself. The creator forced him to do all of that, so the blame for all evil in the universe can be placed squarely on the creator.

So why is he going to send anyone to a place of eternal torment for everything he forced them to do in the first place? It sounds like he is a sadist who gets off creating beings, forcing them to suffer in this universe, then forcing most of them to experience an incomprehensible amount of suffering in Hell for all eternity after death, and those who are left will be forced to go to "heaven" to be with this maniac for all eternity with the knowledge that their loved ones are experiencing an incomprehensible amount of suffering forever and ever.

Change my view that free will doesn't exist and that Yahweh is actually the Satanic Demiurge.

Ihedinobi3:

Okay, this is more incomprehensible than anything else I have read from you here so far.

HellVictorinho:

All things are ultimately Meaningless.

budaatum:

I bought data, with money, that I worked for, to come on here, to spend my valuable time and my highly developed mind to discuss with you, and not one of those things, including you, is meaningless to me.

You are very welcome to ask me to reconsider where you are concerned though, hell. For it is possible that I might be mistaken.

budaatum:

I bought data, with money, that I worked for, to come on here, to spend my valuable time and my highly developed mind to discuss with you, and not one of those things, including you, is meaningless to me.

You are very welcome to ask me to reconsider where you are concerned though, hell. For it is possible that I might be mistaken.

HellVictorinho:

Alright, I was a bright kid with the mind of a marsian.
Now,I am a great dude with nothing but a ration.
No passions,I will make a great fiction.
Is this real or rap?
I guess you might feel like taking a nap.

budaatum:

But Sherlock Holmes does exist, fictitiously albeit, as, and with a character, created by Conan Doyle!

Are you suggesting God too has a created character?

PastorAIO:


Who is the God that would have created God's character?

Created or not, God has a character and his actions are Character bound. Ergo God doesn't have absolute free will.

LoJ:
This is a very interesting topic. I shall offer my opinion as follows.

Free will does exist but for most people it is an illusion.

What we think are evidences of free will (freedom to choose one thing over another) are almost all the time actually the effects of previous causes, known or unknown. Our present character tastes habits and therefore choices are shaped by previous causes such as environment, circumstances, events, subliminal impulses, unconscious influences that lead us to make them, while we deceive ourselves that we are freely making our choices.

There is an interesting concept in psychology called the illusion of control. It shows how people can be led to a definite response while believing they have the control and are freely making their choices. This was once illustrated by a TV series called "The mentalist". I would encourage people watch season 6 episode 16 to get what I mean.

In a nutshell, my point is we are (at least most of us) not really free (willed). Rather we are determined and the actions we take are the effects of some Causes which in turn were previously caused.

True free will does exist though. It is the ability to liberate oneself by annihilating the effects of all previous causes. Then one becomes similar to a primary cause, meaning he has the ability to iniate a new sequence in the system, a new series of unending causes and effects . One then has the potential of a god.

LoJ:
This is a very interesting topic. I shall offer my opinion as follows.

Free will does exist but for most people it is an illusion.

What we think are evidences of free will (freedom to choose one thing over another) are almost all the time actually the effects of previous causes, known or unknown. Our present character tastes habits and therefore choices are shaped by previous causes such as environment, circumstances, events, subliminal impulses, unconscious influences that lead us to make them, while we deceive ourselves that we are freely making our choices.

There is an interesting concept in psychology called the illusion of control. It shows how people can be led to a definite response while believing they have the control and are freely making their choices. This was once illustrated by a TV series called "The mentalist". I would encourage people watch season 6 episode 16 to get what I mean.

In a nutshell, my point is we are (at least most of us) not really free (willed). Rather we are determined and the actions we take are the effects of some Causes which in turn were previously caused.

True free will does exist though. It is the ability to liberate oneself by annihilating the effects of all previous causes. Then one becomes similar to a primary cause, meaning he has the ability to iniate a new sequence in the system, a new series of unending causes and effects . One then has the potential of a god.

Andrez123:
I still wonder why God created the devil when He knew that lucifer will ultimately be responsible for all the evil in the world today, wouldn't it been a tad easier for Adam and Eve and their descendants if He didn't create the devil. Assuming we are all part of God's masterplan then the devil is also part of it which means that all the evil and the good in the world is the perfect design by God, nobody should be responsible for their actions including the devil because all events have been predetermined by God. If God truly wanted the world to be perfect and pure, He would have made it so.

One of the funniest verses from the Bible was when it was said that God regretted creating man, Genesis chapter 6 vs 6. How can the Almighty God not forsee the future? A God is not supposed to be sorry for His actions or have regrets when He's omniscient.

XxSabrinaxX:
If you knew enough about the laws of physics, and you had a powerful enough computer, theoretically you could perfectly simulate the entire universe from start to finish. When I say perfect, I mean perfect. In our simulation, every thing that has ever happened in this universe and ever will happen in this universe will happen exactly the same way in our simulation. Every thought that every living being has ever had, every action that every living being has ever taken, will occur in exactly the same manner every single time the simulation is run.
That means that no matter what, all of your thoughts and actions you've ever had and will ever have, have been predetermined by the laws of physics. Nothing you do or think can possibly change that fact because you were always going to have those thoughts and were always going to do those things. Everything you do is because the creator determined that's what you have to do when he set the laws of physics into motion with the Big Bang. You do not have a choice. Free will is an illusion because we are bound by the laws of physics.

The only circumstance in which we wouldn't be bound by the laws of physics is if the creator admitted that his creation was flawed from the start and needed to be modified, so he intervened at some place and time to cause a change in events. In which case free will would still not exist.
Rejection of Yahweh as the demiurge is not something I have chosen. He predetermined that I would be born under the circumstances that I was, and that the chemicals in my brain would react a certain way to cause me to feel this way, and that I would sin.

Taking this argument to its logical conclusion demonstrates that nothing anybody ever does is "evil" because they never had a choice in the first place. It wasn't Hitler's fault that his brain didn't work right and caused him to kill all those people and then himself. The creator forced him to do all of that, so the blame for all evil in the universe can be placed squarely on the creator.

So why is he going to send anyone to a place of eternal torment for everything he forced them to do in the first place? It sounds like he is a sadist who gets off creating beings, forcing them to suffer in this universe, then forcing most of them to experience an incomprehensible amount of suffering in Hell for all eternity after death, and those who are left will be forced to go to "heaven" to be with this maniac for all eternity with the knowledge that their loved ones are experiencing an incomprehensible amount of suffering forever and ever.

Change my view that free will doesn't exist and that Yahweh is actually the Satanic Demiurge.

LotusFan:


Consider the hard facts, we are on a spaceship called earth that is moving at approx 67,000 mph we are orbiting a huge firery star that we call the sun, that is 149 km away from us at any given time. Perfection, that is what I see when I look at the cosmos.

For billions of years we have not collided with any of the other planets. We are suspended in space and yet we think the creator has made a mistake. I believe everything is just as it is supposed to be. We are all sharing an experience, our actions have effects on those around us as well as those who are yet to come as our ancestors made choices that effect us.

This is the way it is and I believe that this is the design. This is the will of the creator. This is the perfection if only we can recognise it.

Guest007:
This book changed my opinion on the existence of 'free will'

He argues on every level that that there is no such thing as free will...
Experiments showed there was a signal in the brain 10sec before we make a choice, whereby tests were done and the researchers could guess 100% of the time the colours or objects the test subjects would pick.

Why do you like coffee one morning and tea the other day, why do we exercise at a particular time, and not whenever we wanted (otherwise obsity and such wouldn't exist).

budaatum:

He argued that the things I do are not done by the choices I make? Yet there is a signal in my own brain 10sec before I make a choice? Did he say I was plugged into some sort of power grid that makes my choices for me? If he did, I can accept to live with that view. I can do something, but its not me who did it, a signal in my brain did 10s before informing me it was going to do it. That's cool! My hands can take what's yours or slap your face and it won't have anything to do with me because the signal in my own brain did it.

Let me know where you live please. I'm certain you'd have some things that the signal in my brain can steal from you. Except I'm not stealing, the spark in me that is not me did it ten seconds before it even bothered to inform me it was going to be done by me, or rather, the signal in my brain that did it.

I don't think I like that book, but let me at least go and find out about it on his own website.

A belief in free will touches nearly everything that human beings value. It is difficult to think about law, politics, religion, public policy, intimate relationships, morality—as well as feelings of remorse or personal achievement—without first imagining that every person is the true source of his or her thoughts and actions. And yet the facts tell us that free will is an illusion.

In this enlightening book, Sam Harris argues that this truth about the human mind does not undermine morality or diminish the importance of social and political freedom, but it can and should change the way we think about some of the most important questions in life.

Hmm! He starts with, "A belief in free will". I know I should not be judging this book by it's cover moreless 5 words, but freewill is not a 'belief'! No one "believes" they have freewill! You know that you are "the true source of your thoughts and actions". All your choices, all of them, are your very own and the benefits, and consequences, of those choices fall on your very own head. You have freewill! You know you have freewill! Or you are an illusion!

Guest007:


I recommend you read the book... it's genius, he is a genius. I don't subscribe to the idea of free will... is it by force