₦airaland Forum

Dhumancanvas:
I don't know why y'all get so mad? What's so sickening about what I've said? I simply tried to articulate my view and i did so as respectfully as i could. Could it be because your God is a creation of you, your god is you and anything seen as a threat to your God or his existence is automatically translated as a threat to you?

Now you are getting confused more than a chameleon dropped into and trapped inside a bag of skittles. We are gods, who happen to be creation(s) of God

shadeyinka:
You are treating this case simplistically!

You arrived at your conclusion because you know without a shadow of doubt that vehicles are designed and made by man.

Let's assume this knowledge is not available to you. Like we all came to a certain planet and found millions of vehicles. If we came in with a mindset that since we didn't meet the designers and manufacturers, they cannot exist and that since the vehicles have similar anatomical structure,it must have been "evolution" that produced them.

You may have a problem of the absence of reproduction which aims agree with. But, couldn't the vehicles be "biological". Must the "vehicles" be in the form we can grapple with (metal, plastics and glass)?

Einstein's theory of probability will say "Absolute truth" cannot exist! Do you agree with that?

Parsimony: the simplest explanation is often the more accurate. You wanna jump through hoops to propose an unexplanable God as explanation for life because the obvious explanation is too simple? I don't get really. And biological vehicles from another planet? What? Why are you trying to over complicate this?
My posts are long die. I've painstakingly tried to explain my point as clearly as possible. I can't make it any simplier. If you don't get it really i think you are purposefully trying not to. Unless maybe you're like 12 years old in which case i guess I can't blame you

MuttleyLaff:
Now you are getting confused more than a chameleon dropped into and trapped inside a bag of skittles. We are gods, who happen to be creation(s) of God

Yes my friend. People unknowingly identify with their thoughts,opinions and beliefs. So in a very real sense. You are your belief. Your God is a mental creation of you and as you identify with it you are it. The degree to which you identify with it is the degree to which you are it.
No confusion there my friend.
Its the explanation i can come up with as to why people get so defensive when their beliefs are threatened

MuttleyLaff:
ID, is in YEC and in attendance too, so what again is your take on Atheistic Evolution now then?

ID is different from YEC although they share similarities. I think evolution (atheistic or not) doesn't tally well with the evidence at hand. Life was created.

UyiIredia:
ID is different from YEC although they share similarities.

I concur there are similarities ID and YEC share but are you agreeing and accepting that ID is in YEC then?

UyiIredia:
I think evolution (atheistic or not) doesn't tally well with the evidence at hand. Life was created.

If evolution (atheistic or not) doesn't tally well with the evidence at hand and life was created, what then is the important difference in Atheistic Evolution and not Atheistic Evolution, hmm?

Dhumancanvas:
Yes my friend. People unknowingly identify with their thoughts,opinions and beliefs. So in a very real sense. You are your belief. Your God is a mental creation of you and as you identify with it you are it. The degree to which you identify with it is the degree to which you are it.
No confusion there my friend.
Its the explanation i can come up with as to why people get so defensive when their beliefs are threatened

1/ My newest dear friend, I bet you cant tell why human beings are gods
2/ I bet you cant tell at what or when human beings became gods newest dear friend?

Dhumancanvas:
Parsimony: the simplest explanation is often the more accurate. You wanna jump through hoops to propose an unexplanable God as explanation for life because the obvious explanation is too simple? I don't get really. And biological vehicles from another planet? What? Why are you trying to over complicate this?
My posts are long die. I've painstakingly tried to explain my point as clearly as possible. I can't make it any simplier. If you don't get it really i think you are purposefully trying not to. Unless maybe you're like 12 years old in which case i guess I can't blame you

Ok!
Life came out of chemical compounds which suddenly acquired the senses and developed irritability to certain environmental factors. Hence, the chemical compounds over several million years acquired ability to move about. They also learned to reproduce their kinds from scripts they have written in themselves called DNA. Then, they evolved and evolved over billions of years and here comes human beings.

What is TRUTH?
Is this TRUTH absolute?

Oh, I forgot.

The chemical elements which reacted to become compounds evolved out of nothingness. A big bang just happens to happen contrary to the laws of physics and instead of entropy keeping things disordered, the opposite happened. Order was created out of chaos! It was only until recently that entropy began to undo what was done before.

You want me to join you in believing that
Randomness can turn to order
Intelligence can come out of inorganic chemicals
I can completely rely on my senses to know the truth
Science is never wrong: science is the TRUTH
Mind Thoughts are just chemicals

You've got a lot of explanations to do bro!

I bet you've never attempted to look at the statistical improbability of another planet like the earth existing.

The fact that we see "intelligent design" does not say "don't study the mechanics" of operation of the design.

MuttleyLaff:
I concur there are similarities ID and YEC share but are you agreeing and accepting that ID is in YEC then?

Sure.

MuttleyLaff:
If evolution (atheistic or not) doesn't tally well with the evidence at hand and life was created, what then is the important difference in Atheistic Evolution and not Atheistic Evolution, hmm?

Evolution is used to support atheism that's when it's atheistic but evolution can also be used to support theism or Christianity and in all honesty I think God could have made life through evolution if He wanted. But let's seperate evolution from belief. You can believe in God and evolution. Evolution isn't atheistic.

MuttleyLaff:
1/ My newest dear friend, I bet you cant tell why human beings are gods
2/ I bet you cant tell at what or when human beings became gods newest dear friend?

Dude why you trying to misunderstand me. Firstly i don't believe Gods exist. I thought that was obvious.

What i am saying is your belief in a God's existence is something you identify with and that belief being threatened causes a defensive response.

To be clear. No i do not believe human beings are Gods. That is ridiculous

Dhumancanvas:
Yes my friend. People unknowingly identify with their thoughts,opinions and beliefs. So in a very real sense. You are your belief. Your God is a mental creation of you and as you identify with it you are it. The degree to which you identify with it is the degree to which you are it.
No confusion there my friend.
Its the explanation i can come up with as to why people get so defensive when their beliefs are threatened

Atheists also get defensive when their beliefs are threatened. Evidence for God? Evidence for religion? Atheists aren't exempt from that behaviour, otherwise what are you doing on the religion board?

Dhumancanvas:
Dude why you trying to misunderstand me. Firstly i don't believe Gods exist. I thought that was obvious.

What i am saying is your belief in a God's existence is something you identify with and that belief being threatened causes a defensive response.

To be clear. No i do not believe human beings are Gods. That is ridiculous

You have just confirmed you are a certified more confused than a chameleon trapped in a box of skittles person. There is God and not Gods, there are of course false gods and there are human beings as gods. Now you wouldnt believe human beings are gods because you dont know why and how why human beings are gods and you dont know when and how human beings became gods newest dear friend dude?

shadeyinka:
Ok!
Life came out of chemical compounds which suddenly acquired the senses and developed irritability to certain environmental factors. Hence, the chemical compounds over several million years acquired ability to move about. They also learned to reproduce their kinds from scripts they have written in themselves called DNA. Then, they evolved and evolved over billions of years and here comes human beings.

What is TRUTH?
Is this TRUTH absolute?

Oh, I forgot.

The chemical elements which reacted to become compounds evolved out of nothingness. A big bang just happens to happen contrary to the laws of physics and instead of entropy keeping things disordered, the opposite happened. Order was created out of chaos! It was only until recently that entropy began to undo what was done before.

You want me to join you in believing that
Randomness can turn to order
Intelligence can come out of inorganic chemicals
I can completely rely on my senses to know the truth
Science is never wrong: science is the TRUTH
Mind Thoughts are just chemicals

You've got a lot of explanations to do bro!

I bet you've never attempted to look at the statistical improbability of another planet like the earth existing.

The fact that we see "intelligent design" does not say "don't study the mechanics" of operation of the design.

Yea im pretty sure you are purposefully trying to misunderstand at this point. You're trying to misexplain the theory so you can knock it down, very poorly i might add. If you went through secondary school i think you should understand evolution enough for it to make sense. If you don't understand you are choosing not to. Mind you, the origins of life itself remain unknown but im sure a great mind in the future might solve that puzzle through proper investigation and not just random claims or faith.

The big bang is NOT an explosion like a bomb is. Don't get yourself confused. It simply describes a rapid expansion from a singularity. Like with alot of science there still alot of mystery here too but there are great minds at work to figure it out. Like with evolution it is a theory and the best one we have as to the origins of the universe
Actually there are 100s of earth-like planets and possiblymore to be discovered. Get your facts straight.

You see intelligent design. I see life and existence, a wonderous and mysterious phenomena. Humans are pattern recognising creatures so its no surprise you see design. You'd look at random cloud formation and see a face, there is no face, its just clouds. So don't confuse yourself.

Im gonna stop now and pass it on to you.
What is your theory as to the origins or the universe and life. Please give a more intelligent reponse than 'God did it' that is an empty answer that doesn't explain anything

Dhumancanvas:
Yea im pretty sure you are purposefully trying to misunderstand at this point. You're trying to misexplain the theory so you can knock it down, very poorly i might add. If you went through secondary school i think you should understand evolution enough for it to make sense. If you don't understand you are choosing not to. Mind you, the origins of life itself remain unknown but im sure a great mind in the future might solve that puzzle through proper investigation and not just random claims or faith.

The big bang is NOT an explosion like a bomb is. Don't get yourself confused. It simply describes a rapid expansion from a singularity. Like with alot of science there still alot of mystery here too but there are great minds at work to figure it out. Like with evolution it is a theory and the best one we have as to the origins of the universe
Actually there are 100s of earth-like planets and possiblymore to be discovered. Get your facts straight.

You see intelligent design. I see life and existence, a wonderous and mysterious phenomena. Humans are pattern recognising creatures so its no surprise you see design. You'd look at random cloud formation and see a face, there is no face, its just clouds. So don't confuse yourself.

Im gonna stop now and pass it on to you.
What is your theory as to the origins or the universe and life. Please give a more intelligent reponse than 'God did it' that is an empty answer that doesn't explain anything

What can be more mysterious than God!?
As I see you are hiding under "life is mysterious phenomenon".

As per design. Humans can see fractals as design. But you know the type we are talking of:
Oxygen Cycle
CO2 Cycle
Food Chain
Reproductive cycle
etc
These aren't fictitious imagination as ALL can see the pattern!


The most intelligent answer to your question still remains
"In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth"...and we strive to understand the biology, chemistry, physics and psychology of His design.

If you just pause a little, you will see that the laws of physics and chemistry at time T=0 is NOT the same as the present physical laws. This simply means that it is impossible to use the existing laws of science to postulate occurrences at time T=0.

What was existing before time T=0 ?
(by the way, T=0 is the time big bang took place)

UyiIredia:
Atheists also get defensive when their beliefs are threatened. Evidence for God? Evidence for religion? Atheists aren't exempt from that behaviour, otherwise what are you doing on the religion board?

Yes. Everyone does get defensive I agree. That's not why im here tho. Im here for entertainment. These sort of discussions provide adequate stimulation for me to be entertained.

Having said that. Theist more so than atheist get defensive and tend to attack their opponents. If you read through discussions or watch debates and you're being honest with yourself im sure you'll notice this too

MuttleyLaff:
You have just confirmed you are a certified more confused than a chameleon trapped in a box of skittles person. There is God and not Gods, there are of course false gods and there are human beings as gods. Now you wouldnt believe human beings are gods because you dont know why and how why human beings are gods and you dont know when and how human beings became gods newest dear friend dude?

You are just lost my friend. Frankly i don't think its wise to reply you but what the heck.

Firstly. That there is God or Gods is more or less a matter of opinion. If im being fair that there is no god is a matter opinion too hence we have theists and atheists. I as an atheist simply don't believe there is enough compelling evidence to say there is a God or Gods.
Humans as Gods? What the hell? And im the one confused?
I don't know how and why humans are Gods. Dude. There is no Gods, humans are humans so i don't know where you are going with that.

Again.
People identify with their beliefs.
You believe in God and identify with that belief to which extent you are your belief and you God is that sense. Not that you are literally a god. You are your belief because you identify with it and as i said that is why i believe you'd get offended and defensive when your belief threatened, When in actual fact your person is not under any threat

How and why humans are gods lol. Where the hell did that come from and where are you going with that. Its a known fallacy and defence mechanism to acuse people of what you yourself are experiencing. I think you're the one confused here

shadeyinka:
What can be more mysterious than God!?
As I see you are hiding under "life is mysterious phenomenon".

As per design. Humans can see fractals as design. But you know the type we are talking of:
Oxygen Cycle
CO2 Cycle
Food Chain
Reproductive cycle
etc
These aren't fictitious imagination as ALL can see the pattern!


The most intelligent answer to your question still remains
"In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth"...and we strive to understand the biology, chemistry, physics and psychology of His design.

If you just pause a little, you will see that the laws of physics and chemistry at time T=0 is NOT the same as the present physical laws. This simply means that it is impossible to use the existing laws of science to postulate occurrences at time T=0.

What was existing before time T=0 ?
(by the way, T=0 is the time big bang took place)

You i don't even know what to do with you lol.
Mystery is something unknown. If you wanna say God is a mystery then yes I agree. But you probably won't stop there. You'd go on to give details about this mystery as if you knew what you were talking about and you'd say this mystery created the universe which amounts to 'i don't know how the universe was created' but once again you'd say it as if you knew what you were talking about.

Im not hiding behind anything. I don't know the exact origins of life. Noone does at the moment and unlike you im not going to claim to know. There is nothing wrong with not knowing. Somethings are not meant to be known, others are yet to be discovered. That I or anyone else doesn't know does not legitimise your claim yo knowledge.

The whole science thing you're trying to do. Wtf.

What you have said in response to my question is as usual an empty claim with no backing.

The beginning of time is a mystery something that is unknown. I would argue that i can't be known. Because that's where our imagination and knowledge ends. Everything that is, is the universe, before time and the universe there was nothing. Not nothing like a blank. Nothingness is the sense that nothing we can possibly comprehend.
Then there was a universe. Noone knows how or why. But from the point that time begun scientists have been able to model how the universe from a single infinitely dense point expanded to become what it is now and is still expanding at an accelerated rate

Dhumancanvas:
You i don't even know what to do with you lol.
Mystery is something unknown. If you wanna say God is a mystery then yes I agree. But you probably won't stop there. You'd go on to give details about this mystery as if you knew what you were talking about and you'd say this mystery created the universe which amounts to 'i don't know how the universe was created' but once again you'd say it as if you knew what you were talking about.

Im not hiding behind anything. I don't know the exact origins of life. Noone does at the moment and unlike you im not going to claim to know. There is nothing wrong with not knowing. Somethings are not meant to be known, others are yet to be discovered. That I or anyone else doesn't know does not legitimise your claim yo knowledge.

The whole science thing you're trying to do. Wtf.

What you have said in response to my question is as usual an empty claim with no backing.

The beginning of time is a mystery something that is unknown. I would argue that i can't be known. Because that's where our imagination and knowledge ends. Everything that is, is the universe, before time and the universe there was nothing. Not nothing like a blank. Nothingness is the sense that nothing we can possibly comprehend.
Then there was a universe. Noone knows how or why. But from the point that time begun scientists have been able to model how the universe from a single infinitely dense point expanded to become what it is now and is still expanding at an accelerated rate

I think you are being ruled by fear of calling that "unknown and mysterious" God. That unknown lives in a realm beyond time.

For me that "unknown and mysterious" is INTELLIGENT
And if intelligent, a BEING and must predate time T=0

For you, the "unknown and mysterious" is just laws of physics and chemistry which cannot be INTELLIGENT and therefore cannot be a BEING.


But don't forget that ALL the laws of Physics and Chemistry breakdown at Time T=0.

If the basis of all our sciences break down at Time T=0, is it logical to use the same laws of Physics and Chemistry to determine what was before time T=0?

johnydon22:
I think for truth to make sense it has to be absolute.

A non-absolute truth by definition cannot be true.

Some years back most people believed the earth was flat - this doesn't mean it is true that the earth is flat.

I also do not like absolutes but truth as a concept must be absolute or it is not truth.

So, an idea, or concept (the earth is not flat) can be an absolute truth even though humans think it's flat.

Absolute truth is therefore not subject to opinions?

johnydon22:
No more physically qualitative than chance.

I wonder!

shadeyinka:
Your argument is like saying:
All earth vehicles (from bicycles to trailers and other articulated vehicles) are anatomically similar hence a proof of evolution and not design!

But it is proof of evolution. Below is an example of the evolution of the S-Class.

budaatum:
But it is proof of evolution. Below is an example of evolution od the S-Class.

[img]https:///images/JR9bdM[/img]

It's a prove of design

In design we Reuse, adapt and modify existing templates to form new ones. In creative activities we don't reinvent every time do we?

shadeyinka:
It's a prove of design

In design we Reuse, adapt and modify existing templates to form new ones. In creative activities we don't reinvent every time do we?

Prove of evolution of design, surely.

@shadeyinka & UyiIredia
If the universe couldn't create itself, then how could God create himself? The best I've heard from theists explained to me is god exists outside of time which personally I think is a massive cop out of an interesting question

Dhumancanvas:
You i don't even know what to do with you lol.
Mystery is something unknown. If you wanna say God is a mystery then yes I agree. But you probably won't stop there. You'd go on to give details about this mystery as if you knew what you were talking about and you'd say this mystery created the universe which amounts to 'i don't know how the universe was created' but once again you'd say it as if you knew what you were talking about.

"It's a mystery but I can explain it to you.
Just believe me!"

shadeyinka:
For me that "unknown and mysterious" is INTELLIGENT.

A thing that is known to be "INTELLIGENT" is not exactly "unknown and mysterious".

Dhumancanvas:
Creation for which unlike evolution there exists no evidence whatsoever. I think I'll place my bets on the theory that at least has some backing.

As if the clearly scripted nature of the code that replicates life is not undeniable evidence of a creator behind said code? How can one not grasp this, or, see this and claim there is no evidence for creation? I can only see this as a kind of blind absolutism. I simply cannot fathom what else drives statements of this nature .

Dhumancanvas:
Anatomical similarities is proof actually. That fishes and even birds have similar bone structure to mammals and indeed humans points to a common ancestory.

No sir, it is not. If two people both write an excel macro, any number of the coding elements or outcomes may be similar. That is not evidence for a common designer, just evidence that the scripting methodology is the same/similar. Further, it speaks more credibly to a sole designer, who is more likely to repeat script where desired outcomes are the same/similar.

Dhumancanvas:
Similarities in DNA does too. I mean its been shown that we even share a small portion of DNA with some plants. To put in another way, you can tell family ties by similarities in DNA -you know, like paternity test-. If all things were created independent from each other there is no reason why pretty much all spieces in some way share DNA. The closer the speices to man e.g. apes the more of our DNA we share. All this supports TOE.

Similarity in the scripts leading to similar parts, does not mean the parts are exact replicas. The structure and make up of limbs in all creatures that have them is different. It is not, as it is made to sound, like different cars using the exact same parts. The whole notion of "sharing DNA" in that sense is therefore flawed. That 2 creatures have DNA to produce a leg, does not mean that the "DNA is shared", although parts of it may appear common. In a paternity test it is true sharing, as that is a testing inherited DNA.

Dhumancanvas:
My take is this. Noone really knows whats going on. We all just came and met the world as it is. Even our best minds don't have it all figured out. What we do have are models and thories that attempt to explain life, existence, the universe and all that. Now, as far as that goes, creationism and models proposed by most religions do not provide good explanations as to what's really going on.

This is mistaken; we absolutely know what is going on. The difference is in belief as to how it originated. A script never arises without a script writer, neither a code without someone to encode it. TOE is not, in the first instance, a model whose purpose is to explain what is going on, it's a model created solely to deny and, attempt to disprove the obvious truth of creation.

Dhumancanvas:
So far following the scientific method has been shown to offer better models and explanations.
Science is constantly under scrutiny. False or inaccurate models are disproved, abandoned and replaced with better ones which offer more accurate explanations. Mean while christianity for example relys on a book from 2 thousands years ago written by far less knowledgeable people and even considers it a virture that the book is pretty much the same now as it was then.

Another common trope. As if "religionists" are not scientists or, do not apply scientific methodology. In terms of origins and the wonderful and complex variety of lifeforms, the scientific method s, in some ways quite limited. What happens is an "interpretation if what happened", based on the available evidence. But with advances in understanding DNA, it's scripting and complexity, the case for a creator is clear.

Dhumancanvas:
To bring it back to the whole evolution vs creationism thing. C'mon there is no competition. Evolution is obviously the better explanation. It succeeds in explaining life as it is to a very high degree of accuracy. Creationism explains nothing and relys purely on faith. Even the Pope agrees with evolution and religious scholars. They don't argue agasint it. What they argue is that God had a hand in evolution.

Creationism is not in competition with evolution. Evolution was designed to deny The Creator. The agreement of the Pope is not evidence and neither here nor there. But no surprise, Catholicism was used to formulate the theory of evolution along with heliocentrism to that very end.

Dhumancanvas:
The writing is a little long but i hope you read it entirely and get what im trying to say.

No problem. It's nice of you to take time to share. Hopefully I've in turn articulated well enough to you.

Have a pleasant weekend.


Cheers

TV

Suggested examples of absolute truths.

1) Humans have volition and can choose between right and wrong.
2) Murdering an innocent person (without provocation) is wrong.
3) Water and food are necessary for animal survival.
4) The universe exists.
5) Humans are conscious.
6) Sunshine is necessary for survival on Earth currently.
7) Lions hunt for food.
Gravity exists.
9) Evolution is true.
10) The Earth has an atmosphere.
11) Monkeys are smarter than ants.
12) Some things are denser than other things.
13) Some things cut; some things don't.
14) Each entity has its own atomic makeup.
15) Humans form concepts that represent two or more similar things in reality. (tree, apple, picture, house, etc.)

JujuSugar:
@shadeyinka & UyiIredia
If the universe couldn't create itself, then how could God create himself? The best I've heard from theists explained to me is god exists outside of time which personally I think is a massive cop out of an interesting question

Very good question.
1. God exists beyond time as the first "cause" that generated "events" : this looks like a statement and yes it is! For there must exist a first "cause" that led to every other physical things.
2. Because we exist with consciousness, then there is no reason why God cannot exist.
3. If God was to be the "first cause", he must not be subject to the physical laws for all known physical laws existed after time T=0.
As Christians, we know God as a Spirit.

A spirit is a conscious/intelligent being not made out of matter.

How could God have created Himself: that would have been an impossibility except God had always existed.

But we know that all physical things had a beginning: if it has a beginning, there must be a cause!

Thanks

budaatum:
Prove of evolution of design, surely.

As it suits you.
But a design must involve a designer and that's the point

UyiIredia:
but evolution can also be used to support theism or Christianity and in all honesty

No sir, it cannot. Not the Christianity of the Holy Bible. The scriptural narrative and TOE present diametrically opposed propositions.

Biblical notions of a young earth, creature kindss created whole, and, no death until sin, are starkly opposed to TOE, which assumes millions upon millions of years, gradual changes from the one life form and, death as a mechanism, not a bug, as the default, not a problem.

Attempts to "christianise evolution may hold sway with evolution, but attempts to "evolutionise" Christianity, is to reject Christianity, if not to outright accuse God of lying. Blasphemy by any other name. But that, is the whole aim of the TOE.


Cheers
TV

shadeyinka:
As it suits you.
But a design must involve a designer and that's the point

But are you not jumping from "it exists", to "it was designed"?