₦airaland Forum

budaatum:
The statement "I believe" means, "I have absolutely no evidence whatsoever for what I speak of and I just accept it as so with no evidence whatsoever". Another word to describe me would be "very ignorant indeed", if I believed, that is.

"Believe" does not work for me either. It doesn't work for anyone. Things that are believed are things that are not exactly known. If they were known, one would stop believing them and know them instead. In Christspeak, [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7%3A24-27&version=ESV]believing is like building one's house on sand[/url].

I like that.
I would still add that one has to be convinced. I could tell you im a billionaire's son and you wouldn't believe me. Then I pull up in a G wagon(which could have been borrowed), you don't have all the facts but you've seen enough to say okay I believe you because you've seen evidence that convinves you.

JujuSugar:
@shadeyinka & UyiIredia
If the universe couldn't create itself, then how could God create himself? The best I've heard from theists explained to me is god exists outside of time which personally I think is a massive cop out of an interesting question

Before I can answer this I just need to know if you agree with the idea of eternity. And why you don't think it should apply to God.

UyiIredia:
It does at a point. When the designer creates life instead of creating the conditions that create life.

A designer can still modify this created forms of life or give them the ability to self modify, adapt and improve - hence evolve.

budaatum:
That life is meaningless? Personally, I would not blame religion for the error of one individual.

True but it can promote that line of thought.
Extremist are extremist regardless of religion. But when you have a religion that paints a pretty picture of a sex filled after life when you die in service to God by killing so called hedons then its easy to make leap and actually go blow yourself if you believe it serves the greater good and has a reward at the end.
An ordinarily rational person can logically come to such conclusion if they fully believe that.

johnydon22:
A designer can still modify this created forms of life or give them the ability to self modify, adapt and improve - hence evolve.

Sure but it will still be different since a Creator had to cause it. Not that it happened without a Creator's influence which is what evolution teaches.

Dhumancanvas:
I like that.
I would still add that one has to be convinced. I could tell you im a billionaire's son and you wouldn't believe me. Then I pull up in a G wagon(which could have been borrowed), you don't have all the facts but you've seen enough to say okay I believe you because you've seen evidence that convinves you.

Yes, convinced, and, not just "seen evidence that convinces me", but scrutinising that evidence, and examining my means of scrutiny too, since I might be deceiving myself, or you might be deceiving me. After all, even though I say I believe you, I would still require more evidence before I loan you a million.

Shows the poverty in thinking what I believe is the truth, I reckon. I could be wrong.

JujuSugar:
Doesn't the part underlined imply that time wouldn't exist but for god?

Time is useful only in measuring intervals between physical events. I suspect that time interval in the spiritual will not be linear. It can overlap, concurrent or bent

JujuSugar:
Not sure what this means

It is impossible to use a physical means to prove Gods existence.

The ultimate proof occur when you die and you stand in His presence.

JujuSugar:
Qualia are weird. They're a philosophical concept that I'm not a fan of that refer to the conscious experience of thought as distinct from the thought process itself. They are based on the idea that a person could behave entirely normally without ever actually being conscious, and they call these entities p-zombies.

Basically, they're making the assumption that consciousness is something extra that the brain does, something that observes the decision-making process without affecting it, and they then ask why it would be evolutionarily advantageous. The flaw in that assumption is that we have no indication that a fully functioning brain can exist without consciousness. Consciousness may simply be the mechanism by which integrative neural tissue functions.

Proponents of p-zombies also try to invoke [url=https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor]Occam's Razor[/url] by arguing that assuming that someone else is conscious is less parsimonious than it is to assume that they are not because consciousness is an extra, unobservable trait, but this fails the logic test because the one test case that everyone has (themselves) is conscious. It's more parsimonious to assume that sapience is always paired with consciousness than it is to assume that sapient beings can either be conscious or not.

I believe consciousness has to do first with
1. Self awareness / Emotion
2. Awareness of the environment (senses,)
3. Choice, Volition or Will
4. Intelligence /Logics

Thought itself is a subset of components of consciousness as described above.
Of course, our emotion don't always have anything to do with reason.

Eg. A girl remains in an abusive relationship because she claims to love.
We have a fear/dread of snakes so that some people cannot bring themselves to touch a dead frozen snake.

Thanks for the lecture though. I assume you are a graduate student of philosophy.

JujuSugar:
'll need you to demonstrate your assertion properly

1. Time makes meaning to us because of our reference points like 24 hours= 1 day, 60 minutes= 1 hour , 60 seconds=1 minute etc. It makes sense to us because we have other useful intervals we can compare our times to.
2. We can measure time close to the big bang but no further because there isn't any other time-outs to use.
Like it is impossible to measure a time 1 month before the big bang.

Hence the periods before the big bang has no reference scale.

JujuSugar:
I'm still at a loss as to why there has to be anything prior to the universe. If you believe in an eternal god, is it so hard to believe in an eternal universe?

MODIFIED

Actually, science says there but was nothing before the big bang. It was just an empty space with an infinitesimally small but dense singleton. The universe had a beginning: approximately 15 billion years ago. Science agrees that the universe is no eternal...in fact, we know that the universe had been expanding since the big bang.

The issue at stake is: what caused the sleepy infinitesimally small but dense singleton to suddenly begin to expand, breaking every law of physics and chemistry yet resulting in our present physical laws?

Theists Scientists say: God!
Atheist Scientists say: we don't know but it cannot be God!

budaatum:
Yes, convinced, and, not just "seen evidence that convinces me", but scrutinising that evidence, and examining my means of scrutiny too, since I might be deceiving myself, or you might be deceiving me. After all, even though I say I believe you, I would still require more evidence before I loan you a million.

Shows the poverty in thinking what I believe is the truth, I reckon. I could be wrong.

haha...i totally agree man
But for real pops is a billionaire and actually its 5m i need to borrow

Dhumancanvas:
True but it can promote that line of thought.
Extremist are extremist regardless of religion. But when you have a religion that paints a pretty picture of a sex filled after life when you die in service to God by killing so called hedons then its easy to make leap and actually go blow yourself if you believe it serves the greater good and has a reward at the end.
An ordinarily rational person can logically come to such conclusion if they fully believe that.

But what you describe above (a sex filled after life when you die) is not a life without meaning, although not a very good meaning for living, since it is the exact opposite - a reason for dying! And thankfully, no credible religion teaches such stupidity, (though some people do teach it).

A better meaning (reason) of life would in my opinion be, “[url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1%3A26-28&version=NIV]Be fruitful[/url] and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” If you checked you'd find this is the reason most live.

Dhumancanvas:
haha...i totally agree man
But for real pops is a billionaire and actually its 5m i need to borrow

lol.
I'll believe you if you'd accept monopoly money and pay back in dollars.

UyiIredia:
Before I can answer this I just need to know if you agree with the idea of eternity. And why you don't think it should apply to God.

Eternity is simply a period where time is irrelevant!

Eternity just simply mean that time doesn't have a beginning nor an end. Unfortunately, the time is measured with respect to earth's time (based relative to 24 hours that makes a day).

It would be impossible to apply that time scale to God.

It's best to say in eternity, time is irrelevant

shadeyinka:
Eternity is simply a period where time is irrelevant!

Eternity just simply mean that time doesn't have a beginning nor an end. Unfortunately, the time is measured with respect to earth's time (based relative to 24 hours that makes a day).

It would be impossible to apply that time scale to God.

It's best to say in eternity, time is irrelevant

I agree. Let her talk first.

I shall not get involved with this ignorant Post.

johnydon22:
That is exactly the whole meaning of truth.

In Aristotle's words "To assert that that which is is, is truth. To assert that that which is not, is, false"

Or "to assert that that which is not, is not, is truth. To assert that that which is, is not, is false"

Ah! But there is a problem here. You will find that what I assert is 'what is' according to me, unless I were lying by asserting that which I know to be false.

And I could be claiming a truth from my ignorant position is objective truth (as is most often done).

johnydon22:
Evolution doesn't preclude deisgn dude neither does design preclude evolution!!

I hope I am understand what you mean.

Me I see many things seems like design to me. Like why should a butterfly have to pass through eggs, to larvae, to pupa before "evolving" into a butterfly! Why would the moon ? If the moon doesn't exist, there would be no life on earth.

The statistical odds is massively impossible!

shadeyinka:
Actually, science says there but was nothing before the big bang. It was just an empty space with an infinitesimally small but dense singleton. The universe had a beginning: approximately 15 billion years ago. Science agrees that the universe is no eternal...in fact, we know that the universe had been expanding since the big bang.

Sorry, but "science" does not say there was nothing before the big bang! If there was nothing before the big bang, there would be nothing to go bang for starts, and "empty space" is still something, a space with nothing in it.

It is the universe as we know it that a beginning is claimed for. Human knowledge just doesn't go further than that.

budaatum:
But what you describe above (a sex filled after life when you die) is not a life without meaning, although not a very good meaning for living, since it is the exact opposite - a reason for dying! And thankfully, no credible religion teaches such stupidity, (though some people do teach it).

A better meaning (reason) of life would in my opinion be, “[url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1%3A26-28&version=NIV]Be fruitful[/url] and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” If you checked you'd find this is the reason most live.

As with your previous posts im with you on this one too. Biologically you have fulfilled your role(reason) by reproducing. Some studies even show that its after you reporduce that you begin to deteriorate. So you wanna live long then don't have kids lol

I didn't post that to address the meaning/reason for life tho. I posted it to illustrate how ones religious belief can lead to/promote some negative/distructive thought processes like 'blow myself up or 'life is meaningless'.

budaatum:
Ah! But there is a problem here. You will find that what I assert is 'what is' according to me, unless I were lying by asserting that which I know to be false.

And I could be claiming a truth from my ignorant position is objective truth (as is most often done).

Naivety doesn't make something false to be true.

You could think from your ignorant position that your assertion is true, doesn't make it so.

johnydon22:
Naivety doesn't make something false to be true.

You could think from your ignorant position that your assertion is true, doesn't make it so.

I agree. Unfortunately, I am human, an ignorant human at that when all is considered. Prone to asserting what I know, think, or believe, is, until my eyes hopefully open and I see.

Dhumancanvas:
Na you did break your flow. You still attributing special features to this God that exempts him from the rules. There is little to no objectivity and no proof to your claims.

Honestly. Based on past experience i doubt your experience would be compelling. Alot of people do alot of 'trying to make it fit' for the whole God thing to work. You wake up in the morning like you would anyway and you insert God and say 'yay, thank God i woke up and didn't die in my sleep' or maybe more extreme you have an accident and survive which happens and say 'yay, its a miracle, thank god, god is good'. So you're right. Telling me your experience won't help.

One question tho. Why pick and choose who he reveals himself to. If the christian narration is true and my salvation depends on me first believing in and following the path laid out by God. Why is he subtle about his presence. Why not reveal himself and save everyone.

If this God existed with the big bang, understandable! We can apply every physical laws to him.

Unfortunately, not. He isn't subject to our rules. He is the discontinuity in all we know.

If He waisted when and where the physical rules do not apply, he can be boxed into our rules.

Your question:
The earth is a school for selection of homosapiens of a certain kind of trait. He want those who will love Him and relate to him through their own free will.

The Physical presence of God wouldn't change anything. The only thing that will work on men is if God executes instant judgement/reward for every action. Unfortunately, it negates the operation of free will of man.

At the end, everyman will choose his path!

Dhumancanvas:
I didn't post that to address the meaning/reason for life tho. I posted it to illustrate how ones religious belief can lead to/promote some negative/distructive thought processes like 'blow myself up or 'life is meaningless'.

I know you didn't. Though, your choice still amused me. You seemed to leave out the many more who have actually found meaning in religion.

Religion was very "early school". Some people decided to 'educate' people with the knowledge of the day. It has evolved into education and school, mostly, but the seeds of it germinated in religion. I am suggesting that without religion there likely wouldn't be education, society would be worse off and we'd likely all die sooner. Would you agree?

Dhumancanvas:
thats a sad view on life my friend. One of the reasons i dislike religious belief is because it promotes this kind of view.

People that kill themselves for the most part are haunted by demons(not literally, they are mentally disturbed) and its up to us normal to notice our fellow man suffering and help them if we can.

As I've said before that life comes to an end is what makes it precious. Frankly if it went on forever it will become a drag. So life your life, whatever that means to you. If you wanna go and amass alot of wealth, more power to you. If you wanna sit on the road and bring beer all day, who am I to judge.
Joy is from within, not in the things you acquire and achievements you make. If you are looking for joy and fulilment outside yourself, you'll keep searching till you die and you would have wasted your life.
When you die, you're gone, there will be noone there to reflect on the life well lived or regret the life wasted. It will be as it was before you were born. That's the end of you.
But life goes on, new people come in and have new experiences and go and the wheel keeps turning.

So just live your life. You know acronym YOLO. Make the most of it so when its time to go your last moments won't be full of regrets.

Its that simple really.

Its seems a belief in God causes people to see life in such a negative light. Which is just sad. Its a crime really. The belief tells you everythig is messed up and the only way it can be okay is through me. Then it has a hold on you and you feel you can't find fulfilment without it. Meanwhile you were born free and life was always yours to live to the fullest.
Its like stealing your watch and selling it back to you

The believe in God make you see that
1. There is law of sowing and reaping
2. Life doesn't consist in material acquisition
3. Loving your neighbor is the best investment a person can make in life
4. Trust in God when things go crazy around you
5. Your life belong to God. It is given to you in trust. Maximize its use.

Of course, to every action, there is a reaction

budaatum:
You should perhaps learn to speak for yourself instead of generalising for everyone else.

How indeed is dead budaatum better than a dead chicken?

You have value only when you are alive...of smiles you give and joys you spread.

If ultimately you die after 106 years on earth. What is it to you.

It's like a farmer who built the biggest farm through hardwork and didn't live to eat from it. What are all his effort for?

budaatum:
You should perhaps learn to speak for yourself instead of generalising for everyone else.

How indeed is dead budaatum better than a dead chicken?

You have value only when you are alive...of smiles you give and joys you spread.

If ultimately you die after 106 years on earth. What is it to you.

It's like a farmer who built the biggest farm through hardwork and didn't live to eat from it. What are all his effort for?

Anyways, it's my opinion. You have a right to your own opinion.

budaatum:
Sorry, but "science" does not say there was nothing before the big bang! If there was nothing before the big bang, there would be nothing to go bang for starts, and "empty space" is still something, a space with nothing in it.

It is the universe as we know it that a beginning is claimed for. Human knowledge just doesn't go further than that.

I would have preferred that you quoted me fully and in context! So, no singleton was mentioned!?

Empty space is still something!?
Prove it!

How has NO-THING and SOME-THING be/mean the same?

shadeyinka:
The believe in God make you see that
1. There is law of sowing and reaping
2. Life doesn't consist in material acquisition
3. Loving your neighbor is the best investment a person can make in life
4. Trust in God when things go crazy around you
5. Your life belong to God. It is given to you in trust. Maximize its use.

Of course, to every action, there is a reaction

No thanks.
Doesn't sound appealing really.
1 to 3 is obvious and doesn't require God
4 is just clinging, hope for the hopeless. A pacifier.
5 is just not appealing at all. Your life is your life. Why you giving this imaginary dude credit for what is freely yours. You exist in your own right. Don't let anyone take that away from you.

UyiIredia:
I agree. Let her talk first.

Ok.
Stay blessed

shadeyinka:
The believe in God make you see that
1. There is law of sowing and reaping
2. Life doesn't consist in material acquisition
3. Loving your neighbor is the best investment a person can make in life
4. Trust in God when things go crazy around you
5. Your life belong to God. It is given to you in trust. Maximize its use.

Of course, to every action, there is a reaction

I wish I could meet you in person and talk to you. I feel for you honestly. I feel you're trapped in this mental cage.
Far be it from me to try to convert you to anything or away from your belief. I've met many other christians and they seem like normal happy people. You just seem sad.
I don't desire for you to change your religion but I wish you would change your perspective.

Dhumancanvas:
No thanks.
Doesn't sound appealing really.
1 to 3 is obvious and doesn't require God
4 is just clinging, hope for the hopeless. A pacifier.
5 is just not appealing at all. Your life is your life. Why you giving this imaginary dude credit for what is freely yours. You exist in your own right. Don't let anyone take that away from you.

It doesn't have to be appealing. In fact, it is difficult to do because we are human and basically selfish.

What really do you have that is not by Providence?

People who are 100 Times better than you in intelligence are 100 times behind you. Those when are 50 times stronger than you are lagging well behind you.

1,2 and 3 all point to one thing: Continuation of Life after death.
That is the reference!
Whatever a man sows, he would reap after this life
The implication of 2 is sowing non material things like joy, peace, helps?


You don't even have to agree with it. Everything is a choice we make! Good or bad, we'll reap our investment.

shadeyinka:
If this God existed with the big bang, understandable! We can apply every physical laws to him.

Unfortunately, not. He isn't subject to our rules. He is the discontinuity in all we know.

If He waisted when and where the physical rules do not apply, he can be boxed into our rules.

Your question:
The earth is a school for selection of homosapiens of a certain kind of trait. He want those who will love Him and relate to him through their own free will.

The Physical presence of God wouldn't change anything. The only thing that will work on men is if God executes instant judgement/reward for every action. Unfortunately, it negates the operation of free will of man.

At the end, everyman will choose his path!

Did he reveal his physical presence to you?
Free will as we know it is questionable but that's a topic for another day. Is it better that majority of man suffer for eternity in hell? Just to protect this notion free will?
Surely a little interference here and there would save these otherwise doomed people.
Me personally. If I saw any sign that points to God's existence beyond doubt I will convert instantly. This is just me but i strongly believe it applies to most atheist. Really just one convicing sign. Thats all it would take, just one real sign. Your God would rather watch billions march into hell?
This is the perfect, all powerful, all knowing , all good God that you worship?

Dhumancanvas:
I wish I could meet you in person and talk to you. I feel for you honestly. I feel you're trapped in this mental cage.
Far be it from me to try to convert you to anything or away from your belief. I've met many other christians and they seem like normal happy people. You just seem sad.
I don't desire for you to change your religion but I wish you would change your perspective.

Me Feel sad?
You don't know me! Not one bit!

All things work together for my good! Not a hair from my head can fall without His permission and His thought for me is for good and not evil. I am His workmanship created in Christ Jesus.

Unfortunately, The truth is bitter: most of the times.

It's the truth that selfish/ evil people usually win in life:
How come Nigeria will not objectively vote for the best candidate?

If I seem sad, maybe it's because I speak with you.

shadeyinka:
It doesn't have to be appealing. In fact, it is difficult to do because we are human and basically selfish.

What really do you have that is not by Providence?

People who are 100 Times better than you in intelligence are 100 times behind you. Those when are 50 times stronger than you are lagging well behind you.

1,2 and 3 all point to one thing: Continuation of Life after death.
That is the reference!
Whatever a man sows, he would reap after this life
The implication of 2 is sowing non material things like joy, peace, helps?


You don't even have to agree with it. Everything is a choice we make! Good or bad, we'll reap our investment.

Oh. When i read that it didn't occur to me that you were refering to afterlife. Another questionable topic for another day. But okay i hear you.
Still just sounds sad tho.
I read somewhere, maybe it was here on nairaland can't remember but i agreed with it. It said something like, religion, particularly relating to afterlife is for people who have failed in life. It gives them something to look forward to. Offers comfort.