₦airaland Forum

Dhumancanvas:
If you wanna put it that way then fine. I can't argue with that. While I live my life compassionately I don't have it in mind that I'm doing for Jesus or anybody in particular tho

malvisguy212:
wow, God name be Glorified, am really Happy for you. thank you for this. God is your strength.

MuttleyLaff:
Namaste!.
Its a validation that your head deh there but you could take it as encouragement if you want too as well, as you can see that I just couldnt hide it, that I "gbadun" that your reply comment and/or post to Dhumancanvas well well.

Dhumancanvas:
Nope. My answer still remains. Why hasn't he touched others in the way he has touched these millions? Why not save everyone?

I should note that was born into christianity and used to believe. I stopped believing when i realised I didn't have any justifiable reason to believe and what I was engaging in was self deception. In similar fashion millions(im assuming) have converted away from belief. In the past all there was was religion, at a certain point in time(in europe at least) you would face persecution and possibly death if the church saw you as a threat. As the world became more enlightened and knowledgeable, especially after the world wars when people realised that God would not or could not do anything about the suffering going alot of people stop believing.

So if you ask me the trend is reversing. Its not that millions of people have found God. All they knew before was God and that still lingers today. It is that people are starting to see the BS laden in religious belief and people are opting out.

I had a conversation with this clever christian, usual argument in which neither party was swayed. A few months later she came out as atheist for similar I and many others have.

Speak to other atheist if you have the chance. Find out why they don't believe. You'll notice this too. I have no doubt that there are people 'finding God' but there are also quite a few realising that a belief in God is not justified and are opting out and those in the 2nd case are on the rise. The world is becoming more intelligent and critical. People are no longer buying into the whole religious thing. They are realising they don't need to turn to religion for wisdom, guidiance and morality.

You may not have realised it yet but religion is losing its hold on the minds of the masses.

shadeyinka:
I think what you have is defining your boundary enclosure as space. But is it?

Dhumancanvas:
Nope. My answer still remains. Why hasn't he touched others in the way he has touched these millions? Why not save everyone?

I should note that was born into christianity and used to believe. I stopped believing when i realised I didn't have any justifiable reason to believe and what I was engaging in was self deception. In similar fashion millions(im assuming) have converted away from belief. In the past all there was was religion, at a certain point in time(in europe at least) you would face persecution and possibly death if the church saw you as a threat. As the world became more enlightened and knowledgeable, especially after the world wars when people realised that God would not or could not do anything about the suffering going alot of people stop believing.

So if you ask me the trend is reversing. Its not that millions of people have found God. All they knew before was God and that still lingers today. It is that people are starting to see the BS laden in religious belief and people are opting out.

I had a conversation with this clever christian, usual argument in which neither party was swayed. A few months later she came out as atheist for similar I and many others have.

Speak to other atheist if you have the chance. Find out why they don't believe. You'll notice this too. I have no doubt that there are people 'finding God' but there are also quite a few realising that a belief in God is not justified and are opting out and those in the 2nd case are on the rise. The world is becoming more intelligent and critical. People are no longer buying into the whole religious thing. They are realising they don't need to turn to religion for wisdom, guidiance and morality.

You may not have realised it yet but religion is losing its hold on the minds of the masses.

Dhumancanvas:
Do you agree tho that if you were born in india you would not be christian. It wouldn't even occur to you to be Christian?

Dhumancanvas:
From your post what I can gather is that its not necessary to know God for salvation. Is that correct? If your conscience is good then you're good.

Dhumancanvas:
Thats messed up. The last part. So hearing about him is more or less a curse. If you tell me about him, rather unconvincingly(cuz it usually is) and I don't believe you cuz im a skeptical, critical thinker. You have pretty much doomed me. Cuz i would have been judged based on my conscience but now I'm gonna be judged cuz I didn't buy into your unconvicing tale. I think y'all evangelists should stop trying to convert people and dooming them to hell. You are doing them a mis-service.
Mind you. If I did belong to another religion and followed it fully. If you brought your christianity to me I am not likely to buy into it. Just like if I tried to convert you to bhuddism your faith and orientation/conditioning won't allow you to give bhuddism a chance.

Dhumancanvas:
Don't you think it's kinda funny. That our religious orientation and our salvation as a result is due largely to pure chance of being born into the right culture that would expose you to God in way that you would be accepting of it. In others words alot of people are doomed simply for being born which is no fault of theirs.

budaatum:
Yes, I think so too. A space is enclosed in a boundary. A boundary can be empty of things but since it is an enclosed space itself it can't be nothing.

budaatum:
Neither had I until this!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uMjLKNf4ic

What you make of the concept of "absolute truth"?

shadeyinka:
I think you are trying to play on words because the question you first need to answer is "what is nothing?"

We also know that for emptiness to be "something" it's got to have dimensional properties. Isn't it?

LordReed:
If the universe is determinstic then chance cannot exist.

shadeyinka:
If I was Born in India or South Korea, the probability of knowing God is slim. And that's why, "by grace, I am saved: not of myself, it's a gift of God.


Not exactly!
Those who did not know but acted their life in the goodness of their pure conscience are judged according to that standard. The scriptures did not say exactly what befalls them but I assume not of evil.

Saved from Hell!? Yes

"IN My Father's house there are many mansions..."


It's your choice! Because every man chooses at a point to reject the message of God. People are analytic biases not withstanding. The conscience of such a person will say this is the way until the person by his will chooses to override his conscience.

Interestingly, the more critical and intelligent people choose to ignorance the minority report.
Like Evidence of Life after death
Supernatural events
Statistical odds
Gaps in knowledge etc

There is always as excuse that "it can be replicated in the laboratory"! Skepticism will prevent them to open their eyes to see.


I have explained this above.

A lot of things are beyond us!
The family we are born in, the country from where we are born, the genetic pool from which we take ours, our strength, height, health, wealth etc.

budaatum:
How can one honestly claim the "universe is deterministic"? Does anyone honestly believe their existence is already determined?

shadeyinka:
If I was Born in India or South Korea, the probability of knowing God is slim. And that's why, "by grace, I am saved: not of myself, it's a gift of God.


Not exactly!
Those who did not know but acted their life in the goodness of their pure conscience are judged according to that standard. The scriptures did not say exactly what befalls them but I assume not of evil.

Saved from Hell!? Yes

"IN My Father's house there are many mansions..."


It's your choice! Because every man chooses at a point to reject the message of God. People are analytic biases not withstanding. The conscience of such a person will say this is the way until the person by his will chooses to override his conscience.

Interestingly, the more critical and intelligent people choose to ignorance the minority report.
Like Evidence of Life after death
Supernatural events
Statistical odds
Gaps in knowledge etc

There is always as excuse that "it can be replicated in the laboratory"! Skepticism will prevent them to open their eyes to see.


I have explained this above.

A lot of things are beyond us!
The family we are born in, the country from where we are born, the genetic pool from which we take ours, our strength, height, health, wealth etc.

budaatum:
How can one honestly claim the "universe is deterministic"? Does anyone honestly believe their existence is already determined?

shadeyinka:
Why wouldn't God save all humans?
It's like asking why a teacher didn't make all his students pass.

I've said it again and again: the earth is a school. We pass or fail due to how we have served the need of God. Why hasn't God touched others? Perhaps He has but they choose to be stubborn. Did I see an Angel to believe? No! I didn't see anything spectacular. I desired to find Him and I did.


I believe you still remember the parable of the Sower.

The word of God will certainly be meaningless to some people.
The word will be accepted by some people but it wouldn't last because it was just at an emotional level
The word of God will be accepted by others and due to the love of the world and pleasure, the word is sacrificed
And for others the word of God will grow to bear fruit, such God desires.

Why should the wickedness of man be blamed on God? Man decided to invent weapons of mass destruction using the intelligence given to them by God and we still turn round to accuse Him of not coming down to stop the wars.

Could it not be that we as humans gave our lives over to Satan to rule. And when destruction comes we turn around to blame God. As they say "Guns do not kill, People do!"


Of course, Christianity will almost die out. It has been prophesied in the scriptures. It's not surprising at all: not surprising.

About speaking to atheists. I have spoken to tonnes of them. To my opinion, most are disappointed and dissatisfied with the church. Looks like the church is a big scam...and of course seeing that Christians seem not to be superhuman in any ways. A minority among them do so because "God didn't hear their prayers". Most of them however became atheists on coming to the developed world and finding that they are not a tenth as religious as we are yet things are working fine. Three out of four of their friends would either be atheists or agnostics at best.

I understand!
I was to live in Europe. I would choose my close associations carefully... So that I don't get infected with the virus ...LOL���

LordReed:
I am still in rebellion against the idea because it is hard for me to accept that our wills are not impinging on what happens to us. However, I do understand the concept and as I ponder on it more, I am finding it increasingly difficult to formulate a rebuttal to determinism. Not even quantum physics with its uncertainty principle seems to be free from it. According to Sean Carroll if you take a state of the universe and all the laws that affect it you can determine how the universe will progress.

Dhumancanvas:
Determined not inevitable. What will happen will happen and wouldn't have happened any other way but tomorrow is still pregnant.
Noone in particular is meant to exist but when you do your existence was determined.

Dhumancanvas:
Determined not inevitable. What will happen will happen and wouldn't have happened any other way but tomorrow is still pregnant.
Noone in particular is meant to exist but when you do your existence was determined.

budaatum:
Interesting. Determined by what, exactly? The Determiner perhaps, or some Almighty God, to give it a name? Pray tell where the Determiner informed buda of what was "determined"?

Determinism is the philosophical idea that all events, including moral choices, are determined completely by previously existing causes. Determinism is at times understood to preclude free will because it entails that humans cannot act otherwise than they do.

I think a thing determined is a thing that is inevitable, hence, my existence is inevitable since I exist. But as stated in my response to my Lord, we look at today (my existence) and claim it was determined by yesterday (which it was to the very large extent of something ma and pa did 'yesterday'), but the truth is that my existence is more like the throwing of a coin where heads or tails has nothing to do with the previous throw apart from the dice being in the hand that's throwing it (before you ask why tomorrow can't be Friday!). If I did not exist, even you would have been doing something else right now instead of reading what buda wrote.

Question though. Is buda saying existence is by chance or existence is determined? Just imagine all that one sperm swimming towards an egg to form buda. Just one tiny variation in conditions (pa not liking ma enough to make buda for instance, or the bed being in a different room with a different temperature, etc) and the sperm and egg that produced buda could have produced a different person or no one at all if even they did not exist or had not met.

It all looks like its predetermined, is my point, after the fact, however.

budaatum:
The universe is way too big to consider, let's look at earth, my Lord. We do not know all the laws that affect earth, nor can anyone determine where it's going or simply what would happen to it tomorrow. We don't even know all the laws that affect an individual not to talk of those that affect earth and the universe! Note how we argue about climate change.

We tend to claim a thing is determined in retrospect. We take a phrase like "I knew you before I formed you in your mother's womb", and forget the 'you', is oneself, and assume the 'I' is oneself. Then we claim not only determinism (I, buda, knew), but that the 'you' (buda), who's future is said to be known, is the 'I' that knows the future (and the past even), when in fact we know we very don't.

Our wills do impinge on our existence. Wherever one is has a lot to say about where one will be, and is within one's narrow limit of existence. I can, for all intents and purposes for instance be in London right now, and while I could get up and go wherever I wished to (limits of my existence permitting, i.e. have all the means to travel), I am still limited within the confines of my existence which may simply be the the fact that I had not willed to travel elsewhere early enough to travel elsewhere. It's not likely I'd be in Nigeria or Mars tomorrow or anytime soon for instance, though, if I 'will' (want to, and take action along with my willing), I likely could, someday.

Then, chance. Could my being anywhere be by chance? I don't think so since I would have had to have 'willed' (or be 'willed' for), and set certain actions in motion (i.e. planned at some prior point in time to travel and taken specific actions to enable such travelling), to be in London and not anywhere else. Chance would be finding myself in London through no effort on my part (and 'my' here includes that of my parents, if being in London had anything to do with them). Too many stars would have to line up for chance to determine where I am (pun intended).

No one of us is able to determine what would be in the very next minute not to talk of the next hour or tomorrow, but tomorrow we will look back at today, and claim today was determined by yesterday and tomorrow will be determined by today. It works with the moon and planets by the way (as in, we can determine precisely where the moon and planets would be at any time in the future), and it works with days of the week (as sure as the sun rises this Sunday, tomorrow is predetermined to be Monday), but we cannot do the same for transient beings.


Now, does that not all sound like it was determined, like I knew what I was going to write before I wrote it? Considering I had to delve deep into what I already knew, one could say it was. But if you'd seen the process by which it was composed, you might understand how it changed while thinking and writing it, and the end result is nothing like what the initial thought was. Even I am still trying to understand what I myself have written, and I assure you that it will have a deterministic effect on what I think tomorrow though there's a chance it might be very different to whatever I think it might be today.

Dhumancanvas:
You sha want to mention absolutism by all means dont you lol.

Dhumancanvas:
Okay let me clear something up for you mate. DNA is biological matter, acid I believe. IT IS NOT LITERALLY WRITTEN CODE, OR SCRIPT. That's just how we as human beings conceptualize and understand it. So this your insistence on written code that requires writer is completely unfounded. This is something i see often. You take DNA to mean literal code or writing and you argue from that standpoint, that is invalid.

Dhumancanvas:
You realise we have vegetative organs and so do some animals, relics of the past that are no longer useful as we've evolved to not need them so they enter a vegetative state.

Dhumancanvas:
Mind you the DNA that matches is what i refer to as shared DNA. When DNA sequencing is done and the gene responsible for certain attribute is AGGCCTGAAC for example. They find an exact match of this sequence in other organisms that share that attribute.

Dhumancanvas:
I don't know how you translate this but having common DNA across very different speices points to the evolutionary theory that all life descended from a common ansenstor. That we share 98% of our DNA with our closest relative apes and even even 92% with mice further supports evolution.

Dhumancanvas:
That we have similar bone structure too supports this(im pretty much gonna repeat myself but try to be clearer). We had a similar ancestor, through the course of evolution, as the different spieces evolved and adapted to their unique niches the functions of these limbs changed, some became fins to cope with water, some wings for flight others legs/hands but the overall structure remains pointing to the fact that they came from a similar ancestor but branched off over the course of evolution to adapt to their various environmental circumstances.

Dhumancanvas:
But okay. How do you hope to explain this your creator theory beyond 'God did it'. How do you even explain God. Scientists have gone through pains to put forward their thories and models. You wanna introduce this inexplicable being and say all your theories are nonesense. The explanation is this guy did it. How does that aid in explaining or understanding anything?
You wanna claim absolute knowledge. How do you verify your claim? Wheres your proof?

Dhumancanvas:
Using your analogy. Doesn't mass failure in a class suggest some kind of failure on the part of the teacher. I mean , a good teacher can produce results from even the worst students.

You are adamant on knocking down humanity as bad and wicked but don't you think God bares some responsibility for created defective products.
Does the potter turn round and blame the pot for not turning out right?

If God is supposed to be love and compassion and all powerful why just sit back and watch his creatures destroy themselves. Is he not able to do anything about it? Or does he simply not care?

Lol its funny cuz Europe is where your religion and belief came from.

Dhumancanvas:
Okay so you're not doomed but no heaven for if you're not born into a culture that will expose you to God. And that's all good right? Thank God you personally can go to heaven but the rest of the people through no fault of theirs, no heaven for them sorry. What a lovely system your God has.

Dhumancanvas:
I think you're over estimating the persuasive powers of the message of God and underestimating conditioning . Its a choice? Not quite that simple. I put it to you that if i tried to convince you to convert to bhuddism how likely am i to succeed? Why would someone else who has their own beliefs be willing to listen to and accept yours? Their mind has been conditioned to their own beliefs just like yours has to your own beliefs. So it is not their fault that they don't accept a belief that is alien to them. Are they still going to get condemned by your God?

Dhumancanvas:
More intelligent people are critical that means thinking about and analysing facts before jumping to conclusions. Critical thinking is a gift humans have. What you are proposing is to abandon this gift in order to accept what doesn't make sense. If we apply this to everything else not just accepting religion we would be purposefully choosing to be imbeciles.
Frankly i have not witness a single shred of evidence to support the idea of life after death or the supernatural so how am I to accept it.
Moreover. God created us with critical thinking abilities but then turns round and blames us for using them?

shadeyinka:
Not really!

What of the students are not willing to learn? Would knowledge be forced into their heads?

Human beings could be wicked. The evil than we can do even Satan will cringe! It doesn't mean all are bad: hence a need for selection. As long as we submit ourselves to doing evil, evil will consume humanity.

Did God create a defective product?
No!
Satan introduce the virus of sin to us and so we are infected.

What you see is the effect of the consequence of Volition given to man.

My religious beliefs didn't come from Europe: but the Europeans did a lot in propagating it.

shadeyinka:
I didn't say that.
I can only assume that Gods judgement on those would be fair



Let's assume that God decides to annihilate some people who doesn't fit into His mould. Would that be wickedness? (I don't know what would be their fate: the scriptures did not elaborate other than they would be judged according to their conscience)


Less intelligent people can be excused bit not the very intelligent ones.

The intelligent once want to put God into a certain kind of mould, and when God doesn't fit in: the rebel against Him.

I spoke about minority reports: intelligent people will always by choice decide to ignore it. They will never try to understand things if it differs from the high end academic theories.


I for instance think critically: and the scriptures make sense to me. BUT, I also have subjective experience of God and the spirit realm. No argument can take that away from me.

Every atheist who sincerely looks at minority report usually have a rethink.

budaatum:
How can one honestly claim the "universe is deterministic"? Does anyone honestly believe their existence is already determined?

LordReed:
If the universe is determinstic then chance cannot exist.

budaatum:
People tend to say one is "playing on words" when they refuse to consider what is meant by those words. No, I am not playing on words. "My fridge is empty" and "There is nothing in my fridge", could be valid and true statements, but my kitchen in which the fridge stands is not empty, and if I wished to play on words I would claim even my fridge is not exactly empty since it contains a particular 'nothing'. I'm sure there's still air in it for instance, and that air is something, though, nothing, as far as I might be concerned.

Emptiness is a property of something. You must have something to talk about it being empty (of particular things). "Nothing", is exactly that, no-thing, the absence of everything including air and space.

budaatum:
People tend to say one is "playing on words" when they refuse to consider what is meant by those words. No, I am not playing on words. "My fridge is empty" and "There is nothing in my fridge", could be valid and true statements, but my kitchen in which the fridge stands is not empty, and if I wished to play on words I would claim even my fridge is not exactly empty since it contains a particular 'nothing'. I'm sure there's still air in it for instance, and that air is something, though, nothing, as far as I might be concerned.

Emptiness is a property of something. You must have something to talk about it being empty (of particular things). "Nothing", is exactly that, no-thing, the absence of everything including air and space.

budaatum:
People tend to say one is "playing on words" when they refuse to consider what is meant by those words. No, I am not playing on words. "My fridge is empty" and "There is nothing in my fridge", could be valid and true statements, but my kitchen in which the fridge stands is not empty, and if I wished to play on words I would claim even my fridge is not exactly empty since it contains a particular 'nothing'. I'm sure there's still air in it for instance, and that air is something, though, nothing, as far as I might be concerned.

Emptiness is a property of something. You must have something to talk about it being empty (of particular things). "Nothing", is exactly that, no-thing, the absence of everything including air and space.

Dhumancanvas:
I disagree. A competent teacher can bring out the best in his students. Mind you this is supposed to be God. So that should go double for him. But I guess he's simply incompetent.

Lol you think that low of humanity? Thats sad.

Its interesting you mention that cuz the whole adam and eve story has ALOT of question marks. Where do I begin.
Was God not aware of the snake's presence? He's supposed to be all knowing and all present.
Why did there exist a damn fruit in the first place, in the middle of the garden of all places, and the fruit was the most attractive.
God had just created man. Man was practically an infant. He let this much older, much wiser creature manipulate his infants who really stood no chance agasint this creature.
He created paradise with a massive self destruct button in the middle and allowed a creature with evil intent to run free.
Then he gets so mad after this creature successful, so mad that he cursed the entire human race from that moment on. What a guy!

Europeans brought christianity to Africa my dear.

Dhumancanvas:
Okay first of all you gotta show me this minority report you keep going on about.

You so quick to jump to annihilation lol. That's how your God operates yea? I don't like you so die!

But can you see how its not people's fault for not necessarily being open to your religion? But you'd still call such people sinners and condemn them wouldn't you.

How do you know such people don't try to understand. Ever considered that what they saw just wasn't as impressive as you think.
I personally have gone to several churches/fellowships after i became atheist, even went to see a priest, on people's recommendation because I saw told I would find God or be convinced somehow. Even as I write this I am completely open anything that may be compelling. But each one I went to I came out disappointed. Why? Cuz there was nothing to see there, there's always nothing. Just a bunch of people fooling themselves.

shadeyinka:
Adam and Eve!

The summary is that Volition must be tested if it truly given. But there are consequences of misuse of Volition.

Who planted the "tree" of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden? God!
Why?

Volition of man must be tested?

The question really is: did God know that man would fail? Yes!
From the resulting chaos, some are chosen while others rejected. Like I said: the earth is an exam field.

What does God want,: creatures who out of their free will and Volition choose to Love and Trust Him.

Was man really an infant?
Man was spiritual alive hence not really a baby. He may not understand the full implication of his action though. It's like falling into the hands of a 419 after you have been warned.


I didn't dispute that Europeans brought Christianity to Africa but Christianity didn't originate in Europe. They were just tools of propagation of the religion.


I can't show you minority reports, I can only point you in some general direction to look.

I do not endorse any one of these:

1. Near death experiences
2. Deliverances and healing (scoan)
3. Sumerian knowledge of the planets
4. Peruvian skulls
5. Occultism (third eye)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtLkzg8bFgA



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC7xZmLcOeY

If you are in Nigeria, go to scoan..things happen that may not be easy to act planned script. (You wanted something compelling)

Are these evidences? No! Not at all. But ....

Most churches operate far below their spiritual capacity. Many are even dead. And some are business outfits of 419s who call themselves pastors.