Welcome, Guest: Register On Nairaland / LOGIN! / Trending / Recent / NewStats: 3,195,395 members, 7,958,140 topics. Date: Wednesday, 25 September 2024 at 09:32 AM |
Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? (3593 Views)
Watch Scary Moment A Man Who Act As Jesus Christ Fell From His Cross (video) / Why Do Christians Underestimate The Power Of Prayer? / Why Do Christians Fast? (2) (3) (4)
(1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (Reply) (Go Down)
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by UceeGod: 2:26pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
IAmSabrina: It's not left for me to demonstrate the existence of spirits. God Himself, your Creator and the Divine Spirit will reveal Himself to you only by Faith. Spiritual realities can only be experienced by Faith. Believe before you experience divine realities, experience doesnt come before belief. |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by Nobody: 2:28pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
NnennaG6:Sorry sis! I know you meant well, but just wanted to say that the bolded doesn't tally with this saying of Christ: Matthew 18:14 (KJV) Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. God be with us. |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by LordReed(m): 3:24pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
NnennaG6: LoL! So your god is playing a gotcha game with us? How divine. LMAO! |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by Nobody: 3:57pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
UceeGod:Lol Ok |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by Nobody: 4:17pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
NnennaG6:The giant hole in this kind of argument is i don't really see how knowledge of God negates freely choosing God. Surely if we're talking about Yahweh the Bible seems to give reasons as to why we shouldn't expect that to be the case. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by budaatum: 5:09pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
LordReed:No, not just intuition, but knowledge, and understanding, and their use which is wisdom. The error in Christianity is they think that because they say within themselves, 'We have Abraham to our father'", that God is unable to raise up "these stones" to replace them. I say, watch this space. 1 Like |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by NnennaG6(f): 5:16pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
IAmSabrina:But that's not the argument. The argument is that continuous propositional knowledge of God (a state in which the perception of God is equivalent to the perception of the external world or of the self: continuous and incorrigible) would diminish the availability and universality of the "higher order goods" namely, the ability to exercise significant and unmitigated moral liberty, the ability to manifest the virtue of choosing to do the good for the sake of the good; the ability to selflessly seek the good and God, and so on. In general I think most arguments against God's hiddenness are based on a crude dichotomy. But there are many possible gradients in between and outside absolute knowledge of God, on the one hand, and the epistemic conditions that appear to obtain in the actual world, on the other. |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by Ihedinobi3: 6:02pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
IAmSabrina:But your sight is terrible. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by Ihedinobi3: 6:21pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
NnennaG6, I am very happy to see you. I am incredibly encouraged to read you. It seems to me as if you have come some way since the last time I read you here. Grace from the Lord be with you. 1 Like |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by NnennaG6(f): 6:43pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
Ihedinobi3:Thank you very much, sir. May God continue to bless you too. |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by Nobody: 6:50pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
Ihedinobi3:Ad hominem. Try again |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by Nobody: 6:54pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
NnennaG6:I'm sorry but this is simply not true. Let us look at Lucifer and the angels that rebelled against god. Beings who would've, supposedly (according to your argument), not have had significant and unmitigated moral liberty, but still, freely chose to go against him, and thus were cast out of heaven. They had all-out evidence of god's existence and knew it at the level people would like to know, and thus be convinced. This evidence, even at the highest level of the knowledge of god, STILL free choices were able to be made to ignore that and not believe god. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by NnennaG6(f): 7:05pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
IAmSabrina:Most theologians I've heard on this subject think that all created intelligences are held at an epistemic distance during their moral development - including angelic beings. Its slightly ridiculous to causally state as though it were a verified datum what conditions obtained for beings about which we know almost nothing in realms about we know almost nothing. |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by Nobody: 7:27pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
NnennaG6:And in this paragraph, you literally obliterated Christianity and contradicted your own response @bolded Are we just to accept that what "most Theologians think" about created intelligences is true? Or would be more reasonable to conclude, like you've stated, that they know almost nothing? What are we relying on here, Theologians or what the bible says? Because the bible seems pretty clear that angels have undoubtedly more access to the knowledge of God than us mere humans, but yet, they can still freely choose to not believe God, as demonstrated by Lucifer. This seems like a pretty sure rebuttal to your own argument If angels can rebel and turn away from God with their level of knowledge by exercising their free will, then it stands to reason that humans can too. |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by Martinez39(m): 7:32pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
NnennaG6:Most muslim scholars think the quran is valid. Allah akbar. |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by Ihedinobi3: 7:35pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
IAmSabrina:I am pretty sure it isn't. |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by Nobody: 7:41pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
Ihedinobi3:I'm pretty sure it is |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by Ihedinobi3: 7:50pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
IAmSabrina:Human beings also saw God in the Bible. Adam did. Cain did. Abraham did. Moses did. So did the Israelite assembly at Sinai. So did the 70 elders of Israel. So did Joshua. So did Gideon. So did Manoah's wife. So did Isaiah. So did Ezekiel. So did the apostles. So did Paul. So did John the brother of James. In none of these cases was the Glory that is God in naked view. Each sighting was deniable on the part of those who saw it. If it wasn't, then the sighting of God would destroy their free will. A similar principle applied for the angels. During their own time of testing, their knowledge and sighting of God was not such that they could not choose to disobey Him. He was still in essence hidden even to them, although not quite in the same way that He is from us who are flesh and blood. So you're wrong. The example of the angels does not prove at all that God can appear to men and not destroy their free will. Whenever He has, His appearance has been veiled so that those who saw Him could decide to attribute what they saw to their own imagination or some other source if they pleased. |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by NnennaG6(f): 7:52pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
Martinez39: |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by Ihedinobi3: 7:54pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
IAmSabrina:I don't agree with you. |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by Martinez39(m): 7:55pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
NnennaG6:Insha Allah
|
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by NnennaG6(f): 8:01pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
IAmSabrina:Literally? Are you always this melodramatic? You obviously don't get my point which is that you cannot persuasively use angels and demons as examples here because almost nothing is known about the epistemic conditions that obtained for them. IAmSabrina:If the argument is sound it follows, a priori, that they were held at an epistemic distance. This is what William Lane Craig postulates in his discussion of the subject. Or perhaps unknown psychological laws operate for beings created at a higher pitch of reality. Who knows? But you can't make this an argument when the critical datum is unknowable. That's like saying, "The Bacteria x on planet y can survive at temperature n!" when we don't really know anything about the temperature of planet y or the constitution and structure of bacteria x. It's idle speculation. |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by NnennaG6(f): 8:02pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
Martinez39:I don't get it. Did i miss the joke somewhere? |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by budaatum: 8:04pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
NnennaG6:I don't understand what you are saying except the last three words |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by Martinez39(m): 8:09pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
NnennaG6:IAmSabrina can help you spot the joke. |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by Ihedinobi3: 8:10pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
Ihedinobi3:A more important thing to note, IAmSabrina, is that human beings and angels, while quite similar in many respects, are different orders of beings. Therefore, their tests are different. Angels are spirits without flesh and blood. Humans are spirits with flesh and blood. Because of the nature of the former, their test was not about whether or not God exists. The angels have never doubted that. The issue, as it actually also is for humans, was whether they trusted Him. Humans, being flesh and blood on the other hand, are necessarily tested differently. We have a rather larger sphere of deniability. This is possible precisely because of our bodies which shield us from perceiving the spiritual realm. Man was deliberately created to be weaker than the angels in order to demonstrate to the faithful ones that Satan had absolutely no excuse to sin. For this reason, he was made with a handicap, so to speak, one that makes him able to do even what Satan could not do: deny the very existence of God. In spite of this real handicap, many humans throughout history have done what Satan would not do: they have chosen to trust God beyond the sight of their eyes, the hearing of their ears, and other such evidence that may seem more compelling for physical creatures. Satan never had any such impediments. He saw God. He saw the perfect creation that God made for the angels. He lacked for absolutely nothing. He was the highest ranking moral creature in existence. Yet he sinned. Believers today are undeniable proof that trusting God does not require all those advantages. One can trust God even in far less desirable circumstances than Satan had. |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by Nobody: 8:21pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
NnennaG6:You do not see it do you? If you think that Angelology is somehow this area of complete mystery, but yet God, who is next level, is somehow way more attainable and epistemically apparent. Then, you're not making a lot of sense. @bold is fine and that would be all good if it were generally believed to be the case. But it isn't and even if it was, I would argue you can apply this same line of reasoning to God. This ignores the fact that theologians the likes of Thomas Aquinas (who I think you'd hold in higher regard than WLC) have written a specific treatise on angels and indeed writes quite extensively about detailed knowledge of their existence and being. "But the knowledge, whereby according to his natural principles the angel knows God, stands midway between these two; and is likened to that knowledge whereby a thing is seen through the species abstracted from it. For since God's image is impressed on the very nature of the angel in his essence, the angel knows God in as much as he is the image of God." - Aquinas This clearly stipulates that it is known that angels are a midway between humans and God. But yet, you seem to think nothing is known, of course, you could read the bible to see some more details about angels? You need not know great detail to know they are finite beings, like us, but yet obviously have a higher level of access or knowledge of God in order to be angels. But yet, like us, have the ability to freely chose and have done so, even when having that closer level of epistemic knowledge. To pull the "who knows" card seems rather disingenuous. Cc. Ihedinobi3 Martinez39:I really don't get the joke tho |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by Ihedinobi3: 8:24pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
IAmSabrina:I already answered your arguments. |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by Martinez39(m): 8:46pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
IAmSabrina:If someone says she believes something because many theologians think it's the case, why don't she believe the position of many Islamic scholars too? 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by Nobody: 9:09pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
Ihedinobi3:@bolded Your friend Nnenna is of the opinion that the epistemic status of angels is unknown and can't be known. What have you to say about that? |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by Ihedinobi3: 9:51pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
IAmSabrina:What does it have to do with anything? |
Re: Why Do Christians Act As Disturbed Fellows? by NnennaG6(f): 9:53pm On Apr 09, 2019 |
IAmSabrina:Sorry but there is really no parity here. There are ten formidable lines of evidence for a basic theism: ontological, cosmological and teleological arguments as well as arguments from consciousness and moral realism and religious experience—to mention just a few and nothing of the arguments for Christian Theism. So we can demonstrate inductively and through natural reason that there is a God and that he has the properties attributed to him by classical theism. Meanwhile, there are precisely zero independent arguments for the existence of angels. The only indirect argument is: given that there are good arguments for Christian Theism, and the Christian Bible speaks of angels, angels must exist. We cannot demonstrate they exist. In fact, we can know next to nothing about them except that they exist. If we can know even that. IAmSabrina:So? I am under no obligation to believe what Aquinas had to say about angels. This is a silly objection. Just because I agree with Aquinas on p through r doesn't mean I am obligated to agree with him about s. I assume you think Newton's laws of motion are true. Are you obligated to accept as true his views on alchemy about which he had more to say than about physics? Of course not. IAmSabrina:Again, no one can know that. No you, not me, and not Aquinas. This argument is dead wood for the reason I have already given. The central datum of the objection is unknown and unknowable. Its just true. 1 Like 1 Share |
Pastor Offered Me R10 000 To Sit In A Wheelchair: Stand Up And Walk -sowetan, / Pastor Fails To Resurrect After Telling People To Bury Him Alive / Today Marks A 10 Years For The Assassination Of Sheikh Jafar Mahmud Adam.
(Go Up)
Sections: politics (1) business autos (1) jobs (1) career education (1) romance computers phones travel sports fashion health religion celebs tv-movies music-radio literature webmasters programming techmarket Links: (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) Nairaland - Copyright © 2005 - 2024 Oluwaseun Osewa. All rights reserved. See How To Advertise. 102 |