₦airaland Forum

Yea. The kingdom is here. But has it manifested fully? No. Brother, understand one thing, when Jesus comes to seize the spiritual kingdom of this world there won't be demons tempting folks to do evil any more. The devil is called the "god" of this world and the "prince of the power of the air" for a certain reason. What could that be? He rules the kingdom of this earth. Jesus came to establish the kingdom of God but it is no fully manifested because evil is still here. A day is coming when this present world shall be destroyed with fire.

2 Peter 3:10-11 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

Then the kingdom of God shall be fully manifested in the new earth and new heaven.

We must be careful what doctrine we accept as truth. Some claim Jesus had already come, ignorant, unstable fellows! Daniel and Revelation are both written for the "end time." How can anyone claim all these things have already happened even when we haven't approached the end at all? Even when the evil doers of the end of days are just taking post? When the whole picture is just coming together? If Jesus had come to seize the kingdom of this earth and usurp Lucifer, would still there be evil out there? No. Go through my previous post, if you believe them not, that's fine. May the Lord lead you to the truth.

herlecks:
And this?


Acts 1:10-11 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

relate that scripture to this one and think

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Do you see what i am talking about?

May be i am doing too much talking, but think over these two scriptures and draw out your conclusion lets see

paxonel:
All these has been fulfilled, i will tell you how
the man which will rule over the world was the antichrist. He actually ruled the world in the past.
now like at this.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

You will recall that the pharisees denied christ during jesus time?
They even persecute the disciples even after jesus must have resurrected and gone.
What do you call them, are they not antichrist like that?
So these things have been fulfilled.
how do you know that they are antichrist?
Anything can happen in the world, you see things happening co-incidentally dont think they are fullfulment of prophesies.
A lot of things happen by chance.
pesecution of christians have always been there from time immemorial and it wount stop now
what tribulation is that?
Is it the one mentioned in matthew 24?
It happened shortly before jesus was crucified and any of such thing will never happen again.
And guess what that tribulation was?
If i say it here, you will be so marvelled how ignorant we christians have been all these while
you have said it all, dont you understand? ,
Then shall christ appear to reclaim his kingdom on this earth.
This means, immediately after the tribulation christ will appear.
The tribulation occurred shortly before he was crucified,
He appeared on the cross the day he was crucified, he took his glory that very day.
THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS ALREADY ON THIS EARTH RIGHT NOW AS I AM TALKING, WE DONT NEED ANY RAPTURE.
The target is to bring mankind back to glory adam and eve lost in the garden of eden and not to rapture mankind.
The whole world weeped when they saw christ appearing on the cross
but the saint rejoice because their sins have been cleansed. Therefore they are read to endure any persecution for christ.
the martyrs who died in christ will be resurrected just like jesus was resurrected.
and the martyrs will meet their lord in the air!
Now, dont get "the air " wrong ,it means CLOUDS.
Heaven or Gods kingdom was quickly associated to the clouds by primitive people of bible days because they used to think that anything beyond the clouds is heaven.
But this modern day people should know better because we are more educated.
For instance,
Acts 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens
opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Meaning, i see the clouds opened

In summary, THE AIR simply means heaven or Gods kingdom.
And we already know that Gods kingdom right now, is on this earth.

Do you see how the bible can confuse us if we cannot think fast?

Let me stop here,
There are so much to review.
I wish to also talk about the first resurrection you mentioned, although there is nothing like second resurrection, it is second death.
even this new jerusalem is on this earth. There is absolutely nothing rapture about it

Bro, you seem confused. Jesus seized the kingdom after He died and resurrected or after the tribulation?

But the book of Revelation was written about 50 or 60 years after Jesus had ascended. Or you are thinking Jesus seized the kingdom of Israel? You are confusing Israel's history with the world's history! Is AD 70 end of the world?? Has the world ended now? I can't see a new heaven or earth anywhere around here, sir? The tribulation of Israel is the tribulation of the world? I can't see any world ruler forcing marks upon men! I can't see Satan been bound up in the lake of fire, in fact, he runs wide destroying lives! Go study the scripture prayerfully maybe you would see these things. Don't let demon feed you with lies that Jesus had come and gone, now you can live anyhow you want.

paxonel:
relate that scripture to this one and think

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Do you see what i am talking about?

May be i am doing too much talking, but think over these two scriptures and draw out your conclusion lets see

Well, you are very confused because the promise made by the angels was long after the kingdom was established, long after the kingdom came. The angels never said He was coming to seize the kingdom. Bro, ESTABLISHMENT of kingdom is different from SEIZING the kingdom. Christ established the kingdom the moment He resurrected from the dead.

There are three kingdoms, kingdom of the world, of God and of Satan. Satanic kingdom invades ours the moment Adam fell, God's invades ours the moment Christ resurrected. But none has totally subdued the kingdom of the world. Man handed over his kingdom to Lucifer, Christ restores the kingdom to man. But how many has the victory?

Has Christ appeared the way He went up into heaven? and what year did that happen?

How did Jesus come back? Through the Holy Ghost! Jesus promises that if His followers would obey Him, He and the Father would come and make home in them. In fact, all believers has Jesus living in the through the Holy Ghost. My question is

Christ ascended up into heaven, what year did He descended in such way? Because the angels promised He will come back exactly like that.

herlecks:
Yea. The kingdom is here. But has it manifested fully? No.

what other manifestation do you want?
Jesus says my kingdom is not of this world. That means, the kingdom of God is right inside your spirit.
The kingdom of God is you yourself as a christian.

Brother, understand one thing, when Jesus comes to seize the spiritual kingdom of this world there won't be demons tempting folks to do evil any more.

who said so?
Did you not read paul saying this?

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise(heaven), and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Words that are not lawful are sinful words, these words were spoken in heaven.
Can you beat that?

The devil is called the "god" of this world and the "prince of the power of the air" for a certain reason. What could that be? He rules the kingdom of this earth

you can say that from what you see, but God dont judge from how humans see or experience things. He judged from the spirit.

The day is coming when this present world shall be destroyed with fire.

2 Peter 3:10-11 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

you dont understand!
This is a parable,
Do you know that the day you die, it will be like the whole world has melted with fire, and every physical thing you see shall be no more?

Thats why he is asking, what manner of person are you while you are still alive.

paxonel:
what other manifestation do you want?
Jesus says my kingdom is not of this world. That means, the kingdom of God is right inside your spirit.
The kingdom of God is you yourself as a christian.
who said so?
Did you not read paul saying this?

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise(heaven), and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Words that are not lawful are sinful words, these words were spoken in heaven.
Can you beat that?
you can say that from what you see, but God dont judge from how humans see or experience things. He judged from the spirit.
you dont understand!
This is a parable,
Do you know that the day you die, it will be like the whole world has melted with fire, and every physical thing you see shall be no more?

Thats why he is asking, what manner of person are you while you are still alive.

I change my mind. You are not confused, but deceived.

herlecks:
I change my mind. You are not confused, but deceived.

hmm!

herlecks:
Well, you are very confused because the promise made by the angels was long after the kingdom was established, long after the kingdom came. The angels never said He was coming to seize the kingdom. Bro, ESTABLISHMENT of kingdom is different from SEIZING the kingdom. Christ established the kingdom the moment He resurrected from the dead.

There are three kingdoms, kingdom of the world, of God and of Satan. Satanic kingdom invades ours the moment Adam fell, God's invades ours the moment Christ resurrected. But none has totally subdued the kingdom of the world. Man handed over his kingdom to Lucifer, Christ restores the kingdom to man. But how many has the victory?

Has Christ appeared the way He went up into heaven? and what year did that happen?

alright!

What are parables?
How do you identify parables?

Because this will help you know the difference

herlecks:
Bro, you seem confused. Jesus seized the kingdom after He died and resurrected or after the tribulation?

siezed or whatever, you have just agreed with me that jesus took his kingdom the day he resurrected.

Or you are thinking Jesus seized the kingdom of Israel?

i cant remember saying that. Rather i said christ kingdom is not of this world

You are confusing Israel's history with the world's history!

obviously, you were not reading my posts

Is AD 70 end of the world?? Has the world ended now?

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:

That happened on the day of pentecost.
Does that mean that the day of pentecost was the last day or the day the world ends?

You have to think beyond the box

I can't see a new heaven or earth anywhere around here, sir?

someone who is spiritually minded dont look for physical things around until he believes.
What physical thing did paul saw when he made this statement?
Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Did he see some physical kingdom like the roman or israel empire?
I dont think so.

I can't see any world ruler forcing marks upon men! I can't see Satan been bound up in the lake of fire, in fact, he runs wide destroying lives!

until you see these things before you believe that you are in God's kingdom?
You are only seaching for physical things .

Jesus says my kingdom is not of this world.
That also means his kingdom has nothing to do with these physical things you see, his kingdom is embedded in your spirit.

The day christ resurrected you were translated to his kingdom .col 1:13.
Not that you will be translated sometime in the future.

A lot of christians do not understand this truth, that is why they are not exercising their rights in this world.
They are always scared of the unknown, one day rapture will come and destroy this world and all my effort will go.
Why trying to achieving anything meaningful here on earth?
That is absolutely rubbish

Go study the scripture prayerfully maybe you would see these things. Don't let demon feed you with lies that Jesus had come and gone, now you can live anyhow you want.

being free does not mean you live anyhow you want.

Anyway, i have opened your mind. The day you open your new testament and look at it again you will see exactly all what i have been saying.

paxonel:
A lot of christians think that certain verses of matthew 24 was referring to rapture, but when you look at the scripture properly or read between the lines, you will discover that rapture was never the case. For instance, these scriptures were mere figure of speeches or parables which actually meant what will happen when Jesus was coming to die for the sins of mankind 2000 years ago, not what will happen in our future as rapture.
Because at the end of the parable, Jesus categorically says "this generation shall not pass(referring to the generation of israel at that time, 2000 years ago, not today.) until all these things be fulfulled


Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Now dont mistaken this to be coming in the clouds of heaven, it is a parable and it means HEAVEN ON EARTH or put it this way, God's kingdom on earth.
If you read other parables of jesus and relate it, Jesus described Gods kingdom using events of humans on earth. (Matt 13:24, matt 13:31 & 33).
So the clouds of heaven there literally means activities of humans on earth like sowing seeds, leaven hidden in bread, investing money as shown in the parable of talent (money)

Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Sound of the trumpet here in another parable :it literally means using trumpet as a means to notify and call people to become Jesus disciples in those days (2000 years ago before jesus was crucified).
The elect there, refers to Jesus disciples or followers.

It also occurred to me that the sound of the trumpet here has nothing to do with the sound of the trumpet in 1 cor 15:52 and 1 thes 4:16. They are not the same event

Matt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
You see what i am talking about ?
Everything prophesied here in this matthew 24 have been fulfilled in that generation (2000 years ago).
The trumpet sounded that generation(people were called by trumpet to follow christ that generation and be his disciples),so. It has already been fulfilled

Now look at this one that got me thinking

Matt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field(referring to people of that generation 2000 years ago, not today or our future) the one shall be taken, and the other left.
2000 years ago before jesus was crucified, there was the situation where two people working in the field were called to follow christ and be among his disciples, one obeyed the call and became part of jesus disciples and the other rejected the call and was left behind.
Matthew 4:22And they immediately left the ship and their father, and followed him.
That means, their father was left behind while they were taken.

What are we saying in all these?
The idea that rapture is going to take place in our current day future is a big scam.
It all happened and was filled 2000 years ago, that generation did not pass until all those things mentioned in matthew 24 was fillfilled.

Instead of you to ask those who can explain seemingly controversial Scriptures to you, you decided to form your own doctrine. Ignorance is the worst desease on earth. Please ask questions. Rapture will take place. Don't deceive yourself and others.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The word “Caught up” is what is translated rapture in English

TruthinAction:
Instead of you to ask those who can explain seemingly controversial Scriptures to you, you decided to form your own doctrine. Ignorance is the worst desease on earth. Please ask questions. Rapture will take place. Don't deceive yourself and others.

ok, sir!
But all i will tell you is, there are so many christians who believe that rapture is coming, because of that :
They are not fighting for their right in this world,
Nothing is worth meaningful to them,
They live a very miserable life here on earth.
Why because,
They feels that rapture will come one day and destroy everything they will ever work for.
Is that not foolishness?

We have so many of them in africa as i am talking.

petra1:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The word “Caught up” is what is translated rapture in English

dont come with this scripture you will fail

Look for something else.

We have reviewed this chapter from the beginning to the end, its talking about resurrection of the dead, not rapture.
If i am lying, read 1 cor 15:35 to the end of the chapter you will see it.

paxonel:
ok, sir!
But all i will tell you is, there are so many christians who believe that rapture is coming, because of that :
They are not fighting for their right in this world,
Nothing is worth meaningful to them,
They live a very miserable life here on earth.
Why because,
They feels that rapture will come one day and destroy everything they will ever work for.
Is that not foolishness?

We have so many of them in africa as i am talking.

What people choose to do because of their beliefs is not the issue. What's important is what the word of God says. People will always go to extreme especially if they are receiving God's word from the wrong source. You can still enjoy your life on earth and make the rapture.

TruthinAction:
What people choose to do because of their beliefs is not the issue. What's important is what the word of God says. People will always go to extreme especially if they are receiving God's word from the wrong source. You can still enjoy your life on earth and make the rapture.

anyway, since you believe there is rapture, do have any scriptural proof?
Because i am yet to see any scripture which indicate rapture.

Studies have show that the doctrine was developed by the ancient catholic church, the same people who thought that the earth was flat until galelio disproved the doctrine.
The catholic church uphold that belief that the earth is flat inspite evidences against it, until just recently in 1991 that they official accepted that the earth was spherical afterall.

Now that is human nature for you.
Humans tend to be dogmatic in upholding widely accepted beliefs even when evidences againt it are glaring at their faces

paxonel:
anyway, since you believe there is rapture, do have any scriptural proof?
Because i am yet to see any scripture which indicate rapture.

Studies have show that the doctrine was developed by the ancient catholic church, the same people who thought that the earth was flat until galelio disproved the doctrine.
The catholic church uphold that belief that the earth is flat inspite evidences against it, until just recently in 1991 that they official accepted that the earth was spherical afterall.

Now that is human nature for you.
Humans tend to be dogmatic in upholding widely accepted beliefs even when evidences againt it are glaring at their faces

I really don't know what to say to you because you have already made up your mind not to believe it. Even when you see evidences, you call it figurative. If anything is said in figurative terms, the Scripture will always interpret it. If it is not interpreted, then you have to take it literally.

In John 14:2-3, our Lord Jesus said,

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Where is his Father's house? Certainly heaven. He said he will go there and prepare a place for them and when he is done, he will come back and receive us unto himself.

How will Jesus do that? Certainly not going to use rocket. We will be caught up to meet him in the air as confirmed by Apostle Paul in 1st Thessalonians 4:13-16.

How did the Saints who rose from the grave after Jesus rose go to heaven? They went together with Jesus on the day he was received up in their very presence. They were the cloud that received him.

Know for sure that this present world will be destroyed and the wicked will be severely punished. We will not be on earth when God pours his wrath on the earth as revealed in the book of Revelation.

Do you think that Jesus will raise us up from the dead and live us here? He will take us to our mansions in heaven at the sound of the last trumpet. For your information, there are already sounds of trumpet recorded in certain parts of the world. This is a warning sign that it is just by the corner.

I can write over a thousand pages on this but I don't have the time write now. It will come out as a book very soon. Believe it or not, Jesus Christ is coming back soon.

TruthinAction:
I really don't know what to say to you because you have already made up your mind not to believe it. Even when you see evidences, you call it figurative.

you will agree with me that figurative languages are everywhere in the new testament?

If anything is said in figurative terms, the Scripture will always interpret it. If it is not interpreted, then you have to take it literally.

really?
Now look at these interpretation
Matthew 13:37 The sower= the Son of man
Matthew13:38 The field = the world;
the good seed=the children of the kingdom.
the tares=the children of the wicked one

Do you see how jesus interpreted his figurative language here?

Now, look at this one that jesus didnt bother to interprete again.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

He did not bother to interprete this matthew 13:33 the way he interpreted matthew 13:37-38 above.
Will you now say because jesus did not interprete matthew 13:33 so we should take it literally like that, that he actually meant a woman taking a leaven of bread to prepare sandwish?

I tell you, if we do that, we have totally misunderstood what jesus was trying to say.

The same thing applies, whatever scripture you read that looks like its talking about people caught up in the air, or sound of trumpet. Check it deeply, there are internal meaning.
The meaning may not be interpreted does not mean that there are no meaning. Our job is to search for the meaning and apply it to reality and not to take it literally like the way we see it.

In John 14:2-3, our Lord Jesus said,

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

i will use this as an example!
This is also a parable or figurative language. It does not in anyway entails physical building or mansion or house. It is simply referring to the fact that our body is the building or temple of God, knowing that our body is present God's kingdom on earth where God lives.

In otherwords, our body is the place where jesus has gone to prepare for us.
And truly,

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

If you read down to verse 51

1 corinthians15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep(that is, we shall not all die) but we shall all be changed,(that is, our body will be changed )

There are so many mysteries or puzzles in bible pointing to one thing that was already said before, but they are all nothing, only that we need to look beyond what we see when we read.

You throw a lot of valid questions, i have seen them all.
I am on duty now i will come back when i am free.

There are answers to every question, nothing is hidden under the sun

paxonel:
you will agree with me that figurative languages are everywhere in the new testament?
really?
Now look at these interpretation
Matthew 13:37 The sower= the Son of man
Matthew13:38 The field = the world;
the good seed=the children of the kingdom.
the tares=the children of the wicked one

Do you see how jesus interpreted his figurative language here?

Now, look at this one that jesus didnt bother to interprete again.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

He did not bother to interprete this matthew 13:33 the way he interpreted matthew 13:37-38 above.
Will you now say because jesus did not interprete matthew 13:33 so we should take it literally like that, that he actually meant a woman taking a leaven of bread to prepare sandwish?

I tell you, if we do that, we have totally misunderstood what jesus was trying to say.

The same thing applies, whatever scripture you read that looks like its talking about people caught up in the air, or sound of trumpet. Check it deeply, there are internal meaning.
The meaning may not be interpreted does not mean that there are no meaning. Our job is to search for the meaning and apply it to reality and not to take it literally like the way we see it.
i will use this as an example!
This is also a parable or figurative language. It does not in anyway entails physical building or mansion or house. It is simply referring to the fact that our body is the building or temple of God, knowing that our body is present God's kingdom on earth where God lives.

In otherwords, our body is the place where jesus has gone to prepare for us.
And truly,

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

If you read down to verse 51

1 corinthians15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep(that is, we shall not all die) but we shall all be changed,(that is, our body will be changed )

There are so many mysteries or puzzles in bible pointing to one thing that was already said before, but they are all nothing, only that we need to look beyond what we see when we read.

You throw a lot of valid questions, i have seen them all.
I am on duty now i will come back when i am free.

There are answers to every question, nothing is hidden under the sun

Whenever a figurative expression is not interpreted, it is because it does not contain any ambiguity. But if it does, the Bible will give us the interpretation. So it's wrong to conclude that a statement is figurative when others think otherwise. So, it's safer to accept it in literal terms unless it is interpreted otherwise.

Jesus spoke about mansions. Are there not buildings in heaven? Do people live open air. Are those buildings not constructed by angels. There are buildings in heaven and that interpretation is literal.

paxonel:
you will agree with me that figurative languages are everywhere in the new testament?
really?
Now look at these interpretation
Matthew 13:37 The sower= the Son of man
Matthew13:38 The field = the world;
the good seed=the children of the kingdom.
the tares=the children of the wicked one

Do you see how jesus interpreted his figurative language here?

Now, look at this one that jesus didnt bother to interprete again.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

He did not bother to interprete this matthew 13:33 the way he interpreted matthew 13:37-38 above.
Will you now say because jesus did not interprete matthew 13:33 so we should take it literally like that, that he actually meant a woman taking a leaven of bread to prepare sandwish?

I tell you, if we do that, we have totally misunderstood what jesus was trying to say.

The same thing applies, whatever scripture you read that looks like its talking about people caught up in the air, or sound of trumpet. Check it deeply, there are internal meaning.
The meaning may not be interpreted does not mean that there are no meaning. Our job is to search for the meaning and apply it to reality and not to take it literally like the way we see it.
i will use this as an example!
This is also a parable or figurative language. It does not in anyway entails physical building or mansion or house. It is simply referring to the fact that our body is the building or temple of God, knowing that our body is present God's kingdom on earth where God lives.

In otherwords, our body is the place where jesus has gone to prepare for us.
And truly,

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

If you read down to verse 51

1 corinthians15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep(that is, we shall not all die) but we shall all be changed,(that is, our body will be changed )

There are so many mysteries or puzzles in bible pointing to one thing that was already said before, but they are all nothing, only that we need to look beyond what we see when we read.

You throw a lot of valid questions, i have seen them all.
I am on duty now i will come back when i am free.

There are answers to every question, nothing is hidden under the sun

Let me add this to my initial response. In John 14:2-3, you said Jesus was talking about the temple of our body. But you are grossly dishonest on this cause it doesn't fit in.

He said specifically that he was going to prepare a place for us. And he wants us to be where he is. Jesus is in heaven and that is where he wants us to be until the creation of the new heaven and earth. He also said he is coming back to take us. How did Jesus go to heaven? The answer is in Acts 1:9. which reads;

"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight".

They saw him as he ascended. So why do you think we too can't ascend? He is man's representative on earth. Whatever he was able to do, we can do.

And while they gazed at the sky and watch him go, two angels stood by and said,

Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.(Acts 1:11)

So, you see the consistency in the Scripture. He is coming back the same manner he went. And that is what Apostle Paul affirmed in 1st Thessalonians 4:13-16.

I don't really know what you gain to subvert the heart of brethren from the simple truth contained in the Scripture.

Please you don't have to win an argument at all cost. If you know you got it wrong, just admit and start believing the truth. False teachers will face severe punishment that could cost your salvation. So many are in hell today because of false teachings they had believed.

TruthinAction:
Let me add this to my initial response. In John 14:2-3, you said Jesus was talking about the temple of our body. But you are grossly dishonest on this cause it doesn't fit in.

how?

He said specifically that he was going to prepare a place for us. And he wants us to be where he is. Jesus is in heaven and that is where he wants us to be until the creation of the new heaven and earth. He also said he is coming back to take us.

at this point, i really wish that you back every point you make with scriptures for better clarification

How did Jesus go to heaven? The answer is in Acts 1:9. which reads;

"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight".

They saw him as he ascended. So why do you think we too can't ascend?

for him to ascend, it does not mean that you man ascend too.
Ok, bring any scripture that promise that man will ascend, you will never find any.
The idea that humans will ascend totally contradicts the fact that Jesus restored the glory adam and eve lost, and brought mankind back to the state of sinlessness and guilt here on this earth.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

We were made righteous here on this earth. It is the earth that needs our righteousness not the clouds or some mystery place above.
Remember, God created mankind and instructed him from the beginning to replenish this earth,He has not changed his mind on that.

Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.(Acts 1:11)

and you in this modern day where there is education, knowledge and understanding you will just believe what that angel said to those disciples that he will come in like manner?
In other to let you know the kind of primitive mind these same disciples had,let me review a scripture in Isaiah

Isaiah 6:9 For unto us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder...

Now, because some of these disciples have read that the government will be upon the shoulder of christ and christ told them he will be killed, they started fighting among themselves what position they will take in the government, unknown to them Jesus kingdom or government is not of this world.

Luke 9:46 Then there arose a reasoning(an argument) among them, which of them should be greatest.

Now, these same set of disciples with that kind of primitive mindset, saw jesus ascending in Act 1:11, what do you expect the angel to tell them?
That christ ascended without setting up the government for them?
They will surely hope that he will descend back and keep his promise in Isaiah 6:9
To keep their primitive hope alive, the angel will tell them what they want to hear(which is false news) so that they will not scatter or leave the faith in disappointment.

Now the question is, as a modern day christian with better knowledge and understanding, do you want to be like these primitive disciples who cannot even understand jesus parables talkless of understanding what the angel was saying to them?

I tell you one truth, the world keeps evolving day by day, people are getting more knowledge and understanding .

The level of knowledge people have acquired today is far above what people used to know in bible days, so you cant blame the disciples for being primitive like that.


Just think about it

paxonel:
dont come with this scripture you will fail

Look for something else.

We have reviewed this chapter from the beginning to the end, its talking about resurrection of the dead, not rapture.
If i am lying, read 1 cor 15:35 to the end of the chapter you will see it.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.[

Is it the dead that are to be caught up or the living? Read the scripture again

petra1:
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.[

Is it the dead that are to be caught up or the living? Read the scripture again

If anyone cannot simply comprehend this verse, he can never understand anything from the Bible.

paxonel:
how?
at this point, i really wish that you back every point you make with scriptures for better clarification
for him to ascend, it does not mean that you man ascend too.
Ok, bring any scripture that promise that man will ascend, you will never find any.
The idea that humans will ascend totally contradicts the fact that Jesus restored the glory adam and eve lost, and brought mankind back to the state of sinlessness and guilt here on this earth.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

We were made righteous here on this earth. It is the earth that needs our righteousness not the clouds or some mystery place above.
Remember, God created mankind and instructed him from the beginning to replenish this earth,He has not changed his mind on that.
and you in this modern day where there is education, knowledge and understanding you will just believe what that angel said to those disciples that he will come in like manner?
In other to let you know the kind of primitive mind these same disciples had,let me review a scripture in Isaiah

Isaiah 6:9 For unto us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder...

Now, because some of these disciples have read that the government will be upon the shoulder of christ and christ told them he will be killed, they started fighting among themselves what position they will take in the government, unknown to them Jesus kingdom or government is not of this world.

Luke 9:46 Then there arose a reasoning(an argument) among them, which of them should be greatest.

Now, these same set of disciples with that kind of primitive mindset, saw jesus ascending in Act 1:11, what do you expect the angel to tell them?
That christ ascended without setting up the government for them?
They will surely hope that he will descend back and keep his promise in Isaiah 6:9
To keep their primitive hope alive, the angel will tell them what they want to hear(which is false news) so that they will not scatter or leave the faith in disappointment.

Now the question is, as a modern day christian with better knowledge and understanding, do you want to be like these primitive disciples who cannot even understand jesus parables talkless of understanding what the angel was saying to them?

I tell you one truth, the world keeps evolving day by day, people are getting more knowledge and understanding .

The level of knowledge people have acquired today is far above what people used to know in bible days, so you cant blame the disciples for being primitive like that.


Just think about it

You are saying there is no where in the Scripture that man ascended to heaven. Please read the scripture below.

Revelation 11:11-12.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ASCENDED up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Read the entire passage for the complete story. It's about two prophets who God will use to perform great signs and wonders before the second coming of Jesus. They carried out their ministry for about three and a half years after which they were killed. They did not bury them but celebrated their death. But after three days they rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. Are you satisfied now?

paxonel:
if i were you i will keep my opinion to myself and stop jumping into a thread to call people names like pax .

People who saw the thread and overlooked it are never fools. I do not expect anyone to jump in and comment anyhow, you have to think very well before you do that.
Because

truthful comments can be easily identified only when one is able to link his truth logically and constructively to some other truth that are known,

you dont expect everyone especially in africa to do that, hence few people are commenting on this thread.

He isnt saying he has bought my idea of the gospel, infact he does not need it and i dont even want him or you to understand it.

But those who are going through the thread, atleast some people among them are getting what i am saying without making a comment, and it is something they will go back and look at their bible again and have a second thought.

And know that, paul the apostle was very logical and constructive thats why he was boldly outspoken.
But today christians, how can you be boldly outspoken when your truth are full of lies and contraditions?

Pax, you are preaching falsehood, and this is sinning against the Holy Ghost.
Anyone who falsify the Word of God is a thieve before God because you stealing from people what shd bring them light.

You will answer.

I have no time for foolishness. enjoy your falsehood

Shepherd00:
foolishness.

this is how it pained you?

Mteeeew!!

TruthinAction:
You are saying there is no where in the Scripture that man ascended to heaven. Please read the scripture below.

Revelation 11:11-12.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ASCENDED up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Read the entire passage for the complete story. It's about two prophets who God will use to perform great signs and wonders before the second coming of Jesus. They carried out their ministry for about three and a half years after which they were killed. They did not bury them but celebrated their death. But after three days they rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. Are you satisfied now?

you may be right in this.
Afterall, it was recorded that Elijah was carried away

But the question i asked is, bring a scripture that assures that we will all be carried away by rapture. Certainly you will not find any.

petra1:
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.[

Is it the dead that are to be caught up or the living? Read the scripture again

paul was repeating the very thing he was saying in 1 cor 15:51-52 in 1 thessalonian 4:17.
IF you want to get the full story of what paul meant, read 1 corinthians 15: 35 down to the end of the chapter.

He was strictly saying that there is resurrection of the dead, when we resurrect we will be given a new body.
That there are several bodies created by God, celestial bodies(objects in space) and even the human body, that the spirit gives body freely according to how he desires.
After everything, he ended up by saying o grave where is your sting, meaning, in summary death has been defeated by christ.
Remember, death came to mankind by the sin of one man(adam) but christ came and restore life.
John 3:16 whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

We are not really getting this thing. We have everlasting life in us right now as i am talking dont you understand?

The first man Adam died, but we are the second man.
The second man is made a quikening spirit, we dont die.

The summary of all paul was trying to say whether you see it in 1 thesalonian 4:17 or 1 corinthians 15:52 is that, THERE IS RESURRECTION OF THE DEATH here on this earth, that is our hope.
If this hope is not true, then we are of all men most miserable.

But the truth is, we dont die, death has been defeated.

Not any rapture .

I will just advice you. Take your present life very seriously. If you must go to school and learn, do that and make meaningful and positive impact on this earth ,dont hope for one mystery called rapture .

You see white men, they have developed their world.
Go and see the great exploit they are doing in their country.
But here in africa, we are waiting for rapture when our mates are even traveling to space for research.
What the nonsense!

paxonel:
you may be right in this.
Afterall, it was recorded that Elijah was carried away

But the question i asked is, bring a scripture that assures that we will all be carried away by rapture. Certainly you will not find any.

1st Thessalonians 4:14-16.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice the capitalized words. They speak for themselves.

TruthinAction:
1st Thessalonians 4:14-16.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice the capitalized words. They speak for themselves.

no dey dont,
They dont speak independently for themselves. No scripture in the bible independently speak for itself, you have to relate it with other scriptures.
you have to understand what the whole chapter is trying to summarize before knowing why that verse 17 is there.

Now go back to verse 14, i will show you something you didnt see.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep(died)in Jesus will God bring with him.(will God resurrect with him)

Incase you are doubting whether it means resurrection

Romans 6:4 says Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

So, you see, it is strictly talking about us being resurrected in christ in the newness of life, remember i mentioned that we will be given a new body to live on.

If you now understand it from this light you can now read on, so that you will not be confused

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God(meaning God shall call us that our time has reach to die using trumpet )and the dead in Christ shall rise first(the dead in christ shall be resurrected after they die)

Now, all these things will happen in a very short moment,as short as twinkling of the eye (you know when you blink your eye, less than a second) see also 1 cor 15:52.
I continue,
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds...

I told you that literally, the clouds means heaven that we are already translated to heaven through the resurrection of christ. Colossian 1:13
Therefore we that are already in this heaven alive, we will caught up and interact or meet with those who died in christ, in this same heaven here on this earth.(that means we will not prevent them from resurrecting)
We will see them, we will not be able to even recognize them that this was the person who died, why?
Because their body has been changed, they have been given a new body.
Remember Jesus was not recognized when he resurrected,or do you think that thomas wanted to doubt?
Thomas doubted because he could not recognise Jesus anymore, the same jesus he used to see.
God allowed it that way to teach us this same lesson .

paxonel:
no dey dont,
They dont speak independently for themselves. No scripture in the bible independently speak for itself, you have to relate it with other scriptures.
you have to understand what the whole chapter is trying to summarize before knowing why that verse 17 is there.

Now go back to verse 14, i will show you something you didnt see.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep(died)in Jesus will God bring with him.(will God resurrect with him)

Incase you are doubting whether it means resurrection

Romans 6:4 says Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

So, you see, it is strictly talking about us being resurrected in christ in the newness of life, remember i mentioned that we will be given a new body to live on.

If you now understand it from this light you can now read on, so that you will not be confused

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God(meaning God shall call us that our time has reach to die using trumpet )and the dead in Christ shall rise first(the dead in christ shall be resurrected after they die)

Now, all these things will happen in a very short moment,as short as twinkling of the eye (you know when you blink your eye, less than a second) see also 1 cor 15:52.
I continue,
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds...

I told you that literally, the clouds means heaven that we are already translated to heaven through the resurrection of christ. Colossian 1:13
Therefore we that are already in this heaven alive, we will caught up and interact or meet with those who died in christ, in this same heaven here on this earth.(that means we will not prevent them from resurrecting)
We will see them, we will not be able to even recognize them that this was the person who died, why?
Because their body has been changed, they have been given a new body.
Remember Jesus was not recognized when he resurrected,or do you think that thomas wanted to doubt?
Thomas doubted because he could not recognise Jesus anymore, the same jesus he used to see.
God allowed it that way to teach us this same lesson .

You are a blatant liar. There is no ambiguity in the Scripture. Paul simply said those who are alive at will not go ahead of those who are dead in Christ. Those who died will be raised first from the dead. Then everyone both the ones raised up and the Christian will be alive at that time will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. The words Paul used are so simple that even a monkey should understand it. Caught up here is the phenomenon of the rapture. You are a deceitful person and an agent of darkness. You see the truth and twist it to your own benefit. This is my last post with you on this tread. Repent fast before it is too late. False teachers will go to hell. I am sure you are also in the school of thought of those who believe there is no hell. You punishment is sure and your judgment will come. I am talking with deep anger in my spirit that people like you still exist just to subvert the truth of God's word.

TruthinAction:
go ahead

did you just use the word go ahead?

You are using it out of your own personal understanding, i am seeing that for the first time, this tells me that even you can formulate words to suit yourself.

You see the truth and twist it to your own benefit.

look my friend, i do not have anything to benefit in all these, thank God i dont know you and you dont know me. I dont care to know you, how then do i benefit if you eventually see things from my angle?
Whether you agree with me or not it does not change my opinion. You are adult you have your opinion, i have my own.
Everyone have the right to read and understand this bible and apply it in his or her own personal life the way they want it, who cares?
The only difference is, some will be foolish while the few others who are getting it right will be wise, yet we are all the same christian whether you like it or not.

Repent fast before it is too late

repent that i steal or or did any evil?
You people are fun of using terms ignorantly

False teachers will go to hell. I am sure you are also in the school of thought of those who believe there is no hell.

i saw hell in the bible, why should i deny that there is hell?
Do i look like Jehovah witness?

See, whether you like it or not, no matter how long lies reign on earth one day, truth will always find it way out.
We have a vast number of christians worldwide believing in lies, you all make Jesus a liar to the world when he said he is coming quickly.

Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly Amen. Even so, come, Lord
Jesus

This over 2000 years now, is over 2000 years quickly?

The Jesus christ i know keep his words, he fixes time for fulfillment and fulfill his words at the exact time, no longitivity or uncertainty

Do you know how many christians have waited for rapture and became frustrated that they now became atheists because the thing did not add up?

Surely, this is a very wicked generation of christians and God will surely punish you all for making Jesus a liar

You punishment is sure and your judgment will come.

you are a nigerian isnt it?
The economic situation in your country currently is bad became of the lack of comprehensive capacity of nigerians to understand anything at all, talkless of bible.
Because of your lack of understanding, you run from pastor to pastor, from church to church. that is enough punishment for you people for not taking education very seriously

There is a saying that if you want to hide any information from a black man write it in a book.
The bible was writen in a book and gave to primitive africans by missionaries who were never educated enough to understand the content of it, they came to preach christianity in africa.
Now guess what? The british have their version of christianity while africans have their own differently.Today, England is far developed while africa is nowhere.

I am talking with deep anger in my spirit

you have not seen anything yet

That anger will consume you for nothing

that people like you still exist just to subvert the truth of God's word.

you know the truth and people in your nation are wallowing in ignorance and poverty since 1960?

Look my friend, dont quote me again o