fortran12:

So you know and attest to the fact that the Quran spread false information about Jesus right??. Once we agree on that I will answer your question.

Actually, the Bible spread the lie. The Qur'an never denied the crucifixion never took but rather, it was Jesus that was crucified but another man who had his resemblance. The shocking thing is, some early Christians actually believed Jesus wasn't crucified but another in his place. Some say Simon, others say Judas and there are documents to prove it.

So you have no right to say Islam spread false information!

Demmzy15:
Actually, the Bible spread the lie. The Qur'an never denied the crucifixion never took but rather, it was Jesus that was crucified but another man who had his resemblance. The shocking thing is, some early Christians actually believed Jesus wasn't crucified but another in his place. Some say Simon, others say Judas and there are documents to prove it.

So you have no right to say Islam spread false information!

No Christian ever believed Jesus was not crucified. There exists no document to prove this that has not been debunked. Islam spreads lots of false claims like Mohammed saying "every one of you is collected in the womb of his mother for the first 40 days, and then he becomes a clot for another 40 days, and then a piece of flesh for another 40 days"
This statement is evidently false.
Better read the Bible and get to know Jesus and the original stories than incomplete stories about Bible characters

fortran12:


No Christian ever believed Jesus was not crucified. There exists no document to prove this that has not been debunked. Islam spreads lots of false claims like Mohammed saying "every one of you is collected in the womb of his mother for the first 40 days, and then he becomes a clot for another 40 days, and then a piece of flesh for another 40 days"
This statement is evidently false.
Better read the Bible and get to know Jesus and the original stories than incomplete stories about Bible characters

You know why I dislike Christians atimes, you guys are very arrogant and ignorant. You should've asked me to provide those documents and the name of Christians that believed that Jesus was never crucified, but you didn't, rather you began to castigate and deny something you have no knowledge about.

I stated unequivocally that, crucifixion took place but the man on the cross wasn't Jesus. The Bible claimed all the disciples ran and forsook him, of all the writers of the bible, none of them witnessed the crucifixion. If you were to present the Gospel according to Mark, Luke, Mathew and John as the evidence for crucifixion in the Law Court, your case would be dismissed because they didn't witness it.

Now to make this discussion more fruitful and interesting, ask me evidences and I shall provide you with one.

Demmzy15:
You know why I dislike Christians atimes, you guys are very arrogant and ignorant. You should've asked me to provide those documents and the name of Christians that believed that Jesus was never crucified, but you didn't, rather you began to castigate and deny something you have no knowledge about.

I stated unequivocally that, crucifixion took place but the man on the cross wasn't Jesus. The Bible claimed all the disciples ran and forsook him, of all the writers of the bible, none of them witnessed the crucifixion. If you were to present the Gospel according to Mark, Luke, Mathew and John as the evidence for crucifixion in the Law Court, your case would be dismissed because they didn't witness it.

Now to make this discussion more fruitful and interesting, ask me evidences and I shall provide you with one.

That's not true john was by Jesus at the cross john 19 vs 26 -27 so your premise is false.

Demmzy15:
You know why I dislike Christians atimes, you guys are very arrogant and ignorant. You should've asked me to provide those documents and the name of Christians that believed that Jesus was never crucified, but you didn't, rather you began to castigate and deny something you have no knowledge about.

I stated unequivocally that, crucifixion took place but the man on the cross wasn't Jesus. The Bible claimed all the disciples ran and forsook him, of all the writers of the bible, none of them witnessed the crucifixion. If you were to present the Gospel according to Mark, Luke, Mathew and John as the evidence for crucifixion in the Law Court, your case would be dismissed because they didn't witness it.

Now to make this discussion more fruitful and interesting, ask me evidences and I shall provide you with one.

The Qur'an you hold so dear why does it keep referencing the Bible despite non of the characters live anywhere close or related to Muslims. The bible never references the Qur'an one bit but the Qur'an keeps looking for validation with the Bible.

fortran12:

The Qur'an you hold so dear why does it keep referencing the Bible despite non of the characters live anywhere close or related to Muslims. The bible never references the Qur'an one bit but the Qur'an keeps looking for validation with the Bible.

How does this correlate with my post? There are parts of the Bible which indeed is from God and this same God was the one that revealed the Qur'an, so why won't you find similarities?

Now go back to my initial posts

fortran12:


That's not true john was by Jesus at the cross john 19 vs 26 -27 so your premise is false.

Why should we accept the testimony of John (or whoever wrote it)? He wasn't there, so where did he get it from? Remember the Bible said, they all forsook him, not one disciple was there during Crucifixion, so you can't accept their testimonies

Demmzy15:
Why should we accept the testimony of John (or whoever wrote it)? He wasn't there, so where did he get it from? Remember the Bible said, they all forsook him, not one disciple was there during Crucifixion, so you can't accept their testimonies

What is your proof that he was not there isn't it from the bible you would get proof? Because they deserted him does not mean they did not witness what happened to him. They deserted him means they ran when he was arrested.

Demmzy15:
How does this correlate with my post? There are parts of the Bible which indeed is from God and this same God was the one that revealed the Qur'an, so why won't you find similarities?

Now go back to my initial posts

So the same God mentions that you should forgive and also mentions to (fight with intent to kill )all Jews and Christians until they accept Islam or pay the jizyiah.
Does that make sense?

fortran12:

So the same God mentions that you should forgive and also mentions to (fight with intent to kill )all Jews and Christians until they accept Islam or pay the jizyiah.
Does that make sense?

Do you know what Jizyah mean? Now go back to main issue and don't say what you don't know

fortran12:


What is your proof that he was not there isn't it from the bible you would get proof? Because they deserted him does not mean they did not witness what happened to him. They deserted him means they ran when he was arrested.

None of them was there when he was crucified, so whatever the Bible says cannot be accepted. How can you use the Bible has proof when non of the writers were there?

Demmzy15:
None of them was there when he was crucified, so whatever the Bible says cannot be accepted. How can you use the Bible has proof when non of the writers were there?

Bring your proof, because the Bible says they were there. You think Jesus has only 12 disciples? He had more than that. The 12 were only the close ones. The book of Luke 10 talks of about 70 disciples who also followed Jesus, women also did follow him and you think these people also ran away?
The Gospels are first hand and eye witness documentation of the life of Jesus or you think Luke and Mark were with Mary when she was pregnant with Jesus.
I quoted the book of John showing he and other followers even his mum were there at his crucifixion.The Bible said his disciples ran away when they arrested him (his crucifixion did not take place the next day after his arrest, he was tried by several people and am sure this process took days ) so how you come to the conclusion that they were not there at his death is beyond me.

Demmzy15:
Do you know what Jizyah mean? Now go back to main issue and don't say what you don't know

LOL,I know very well. Its protection money, tax collected from non muslims after muslims have invaded their lands. What does Quran 9 vs 29 say?

fortran12:

LOL,I know very well. Its protection money, tax collected from non muslims after muslims have invaded their lands. What does Quran 9 vs 29 say?

I love how you changed the topic, so who are to pay the Jizyah and why is it paid? Do Muslims not also pay taxes? Let's see how you'll go from here

Demmzy15:
I love how you changed the topic, so who are to pay the Jizyah and why is it paid? Do Muslims not also pay taxes? Let's see how you'll go from here

This is not tax. It's paid cos they are not muslims. It's blackmail money. They non Muslims are treated as second class citizens - dhimmi and asked to pay the jizyiah unless they convert to Islam. Note Muslims invaded their lands and now impose the fees on these people.
It's not tax as you call it. It's convert or die or pay money to be alive in your country which we invaded.

fortran12:

Bring your proof, because the Bible says they were there.

Please bring the verses, and who were the names of the disciples present during the crucifixion.

You think Jesus has only 12 disciples? He had more than that.

He had only 12 disciples, did he have other followers? Of course yes, when Judas betrayed he was quickly replaced.

[s]The 12 were only the close ones. The book of Luke 10 talks of about 70 disciples who also followed Jesus,[/s] women also did follow him and you think these people also ran away?

He had only 12 disciples and none was present, this is a fact. The women and men that witnessed the crucifixion, we don't have their accounts. None of them wrote Gospels, the gospels we have today was written by people who weren't there. So it can't be accepted!

The Gospels are first hand and eye witness documentation of the life of Jesus or you think Luke and Mark were with Mary when she was pregnant with Jesus.

Who cares? Luke and Mark didn't meet Jesus, so how on Earth is that a first hand account when they didn't even meet Jesus?

I quoted the book of John showing he and other followers even his mum were there at his crucifixion.

Which John? Baptist or who exactly?

The Bible said his disciples ran away when they arrested him (his crucifixion did not take place the next day after his arrest, he was tried by several people and am sure this process took days ) so how you come to the conclusion that they were not there at his death is beyond me.

Because the Bible claimed everyone there during the crucifixion mocked him including the thieves by his side, mark and matthew mentioned the women who witnessed it were far away. John mentions that the women who witnessed were close to be able to talk to him but no disciple. All forsook him and fled, so how on Earth can you believe a Gospel who was written by men who never met Jesus or his supposed crucifixion, on top of that a Gospel written decades after he died? You Christians are amazing NGL

fortran12:

This is not tax. It's paid cos they are not muslims. It's blackmail money. They non Muslims are treated as second class citizens - dhimmi and asked to pay the jizyiah unless they convert to Islam. Note Muslims invaded their lands and now impose the fees on these people.
It's not tax as you call it. It's convert or die or pay money to be alive in your country which we invaded.

Call it whatever you want, but the Jizyah is paid to the Muslims by Christian men because they don't fight in case there's war, the Muslims are going to protect you. It's only Christian able bodied men that pay the Jizyah, unlike Muslims whereby are to pay compulsory zakat.

And as for invading lands, that is how man as always lived. Even the land where Jesus lived was invaded by the Romans and he accepted their rule, which was why he said "give unto caesar what is for him and give unto God what is meant for him"

And for your other misconception, whenever you go into any country of the world today, you pay tax and the Jizyah tax is way lower compared to these taxes you pay. You should be thanking Muslims and not castigating them because they've protected minorities with this.

Demmzy15:
Call it whatever you want, but the Jizyah is paid to the Muslims by Christian men because they don't fight in case there's war, the Muslims are going to protect you. It's only Christian able bodied men that pay the Jizyah, unlike Muslims whereby are to pay compulsory zakat.

And as for invading lands, that is how man as always lived. Even the land where Jesus lived was invaded by the Romans and he accepted their rule, which was why he said "give unto caesar what is for him and give unto God what is meant for him"

And for your other misconception, whenever you go into any country of the world today, you pay tax and the Jizyah tax is way lower compared to these taxes you pay. You should be thanking Muslims and not castigating them because they've protected minorities with this.

You come and invade a land treat the people as second class citizens and ask them to pay protection money to combat people who want to liberate them.
The Romans invaded but did not force people to convert to any religion unlike Islam which is convert or die or pay. I gave reference Qur'an 9 vs 29. Give reference for all you stated above.

Demmzy15:


Please bring the verses, and who were the names of the disciples present during the crucifixion.



He had only 12 disciples, did he have other followers? Of course yes, when Judas betrayed he was quickly replaced.



He had only 12 disciples and none was present, this is a fact. The women and men that witnessed the crucifixion, we don't have their accounts. None of them wrote Gospels, the gospels we have today was written by people who weren't there. So it can't be accepted!



Who cares? Luke and Mark didn't meet Jesus, so how on Earth is that a first hand account when they didn't even meet Jesus?



Which John? Baptist or who exactly?



Because the Bible claimed everyone there during the crucifixion mocked him including the thieves by his side, mark and matthew mentioned the women who witnessed it were far away. John mentions that the women who witnessed were close to be able to talk to him but no disciple. All forsook him and fled, so how on Earth can you believe a Gospel who was written by men who never met Jesus or his supposed crucifixion, on top of that a Gospel written decades after he died? You Christians are amazing NGL

The budern of proof lies on you. You made a claim that non of the disciples were present at his crucifixion. Show your proof that they were not present.
Don't tell me cos they ran at his arrest means they disappeared for ever.

fortran12:


You come and invade a land treat the people as second class citizens and ask them to pay protection money to combat people who want to liberate them.
The Romans invaded but did not force people to convert to any religion unlike Islam which is convert or die or pay. I gave reference Qur'an 9 vs 29. Give reference for all you stated above.

Did Islam force you to become Muslim? NO! Did they say you should pay tax on order to prevent you from dying in wars in which Muslims would fight instead of you? YES!

The Romans didn't really take religion serious, but when they began to embrace Christianity under Constantine, they began to invade different lands and forced Christianity on the inhabitants. Unlike Muslims who didn't if you paid the tax, this Roman Christians forced Christianity on you and you still had to pay taxes. It didn't stop there, these Romans persecuted other Christians which weren't of their own denomination. Like they persecuted the Coptic Christians who were eventually saved by Muslims who protected them after chasing the Romans. The copts paid the Jizyah for centuries and we're protected for more than a thousand years, this is why you still find 9 million of them today.

So spare me the hypocrisy!

fortran12:


The budern of proof lies on you. You made a claim that non of the disciples were present at his crucifixion. Show your proof that they were not present.
Don't tell me cos they ran at his arrest means they disappeared for ever.

LMAO So this is what you could come up with, the onus is on you not me. You claimed Jesus was crucified and the Bible is a first-hand account, but non of those that wrote were present. So it's really a bad one for you, Peter who tried to trail Jesus eventually stopped after he was recognized by the authorities severally.

It is you who's to prove that the disciples were present not me, I'm to disprove and since you've not given any evidences.

Demmzy15:
LMAO So this is what you could come up with, the onus is on you not me. You claimed Jesus was crucified and the Bible is a first-hand account, but non of those that wrote were present. So it's really a bad one for you, Peter who tried to trail Jesus eventually stopped after he was recognized by the authorities severally.

It is you who's to prove that the disciples were present not me, I'm to disprove and since you've not given any evidences.

Don't twist it , you made a claim first that none of the disciples were there so I asked you to give me a reference for that statement.

Demmzy15:
Did Islam force you to become Muslim? NO! Did they say you should pay tax on order to prevent you from dying in wars in which Muslims would fight instead of you? YES!

The Romans didn't really take religion serious, but when they began to embrace Christianity under Constantine, they began to invade different lands and forced Christianity on the inhabitants. Unlike Muslims who didn't if you paid the tax, this Roman Christians forced Christianity on you and you still had to pay taxes. It didn't stop there, these Romans persecuted other Christians which weren't of their own denomination. Like they persecuted the Coptic Christians who were eventually saved by Muslims who protected them after chasing the Romans. The copts paid the Jizyah for centuries and we're protected for more than a thousand years, this is why you still find 9 million of them today.

So spare me the hypocrisy!

It's blackmail money. Islam spread by force. They raid other people's lands and impose their sharia, treat the citizens as second class and pay money so as to survive.
Give me a reference that the tax is to protect them from wars.

Let's stick to the topic about the Muslim jizyiah

fortran12:

It's blackmail money. Islam spread by force. They raid other people's lands and impose their sharia, treat the citizens as second class and pay money so as to survive.
Give me a reference that the tax is to protect them from wars.

Let's stick to the topic about the Muslim jizyiah

The so-called prophet was nothing but a bandit, a warlord whose source of livelihood is war and raiding the so-called kafirs:

Ibn 'Aun reported:
I wrote to Nafi' inquiring from him whether it was necessary to extend (to the disbelievers) an invitation to accept (Islam) before meeting them in fight. He wrote (in reply) to me that it was necessary in the early days of Islam. The Messenger of Allah ( ﷺ ) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned others. On that very day, he captured Juwairiya bint al-Harith. Nafi' said that this tradition was related to him by Abdullah b. Umar who (himself) was among the raiding troops.(sahih Muslim 1730l.

fortran12:

It's blackmail money. Islam spread by force. They raid other people's lands and impose their sharia, treat the citizens as second class and pay money so as to survive.
Give me a reference that the tax is to protect them from wars.

You're very dishonest and this is the problem with Christians. Of course, there have been cases of Muslims invading killing people and commiting excesses, we don't deny that. We acknowledge it and those actions are wrong. But you Christians on the otherhand never admit the past, Christians were the first to attack Muslims during the time of Prophet Muhammad, the verse in question you're talking about was about the event.

Throughout centuries, you Christians have killed millions of pagans, Muslims and even fellow Christians you term "heretics". But all you care about is Islam, I've explained to you how the Jizyah works. The British Christians conquered our lands and imposed their way of life on us, they collected taxes from us, we fought their wars but Muslims are your problem. If you don't acknowledge this, I'll stop replying you on this issue because you're very dishonest.

Christian men are only required to pay Jizyah because they don't fight, whilst Muslims are to fight and still pay the Zakat. Muslims protect you from invaders, you don't get to talk!!!!

Let's stick to the topic about the Muslim jizyiah

I'm sticking to the topic, stop the hypocrisy. Are you saying christians never conquered lands and imposed taxes on the people?

fortran12:


Don't twist it , you made a claim first that none of the disciples were there so I asked you to give me a reference for that statement.

It's your Bible, you're to prove to me that they were there. You claimed John was there and I asked which of the John? Which disciples were there, Matthew and John even contradicted themselves on whether the women were close by or far. Even if I were to accept some disciples were there, where are their accounts?

This would go really bad for you!

true2god:
[s]The so-called prophet was nothing but a bandit, a warlord whose source of livelihood is war and raiding the so-called kafirs:

Ibn 'Aun reported:
I wrote to Nafi' inquiring from him whether it was necessary to extend (to the disbelievers) an invitation to accept (Islam) before meeting them in fight. He wrote (in reply) to me that it was necessary in the early days of Islam. The Messenger of Allah ( ﷺ ) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned others. On that very day, he captured Juwairiya bint al-Harith. Nafi' said that this tradition was related to him by Abdullah b. Umar who (himself) was among the raiding troops.(sahih Muslim 1730l.[/s]

Numbers 31:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Jesus is a terrorist, rapist and a bandit. Look at the command he gave Moses, another terrorist psychopath!

Demmzy15:
It's your Bible, you're to prove to me that they were there. You claimed John was there and I asked which of the John? Which disciples were there, Matthew and John even contradicted themselves on whether the women were close by or far. Even if I were to accept some disciples were there, where are their accounts?

This would go really bad for you!

You dont get it. You made a statement that none of the disciples were there. So what is your proof. Give me a reference to that statemsnt you made. You made a claim, the burden of proof is on you to defend that claim with a reference.

Demmzy15:


You're very dishonest and this is the problem with Christians. Of course, there have been cases of Muslims invading killing people and commiting excesses, we don't deny that. We acknowledge it and those actions are wrong. But you Christians on the otherhand never admit the past, Christians were the first to attack Muslims during the time of Prophet Muhammad, the verse in question you're talking about was about the event.

Throughout centuries, you Christians have killed millions of pagans, Muslims and even fellow Christians you term "heretics". But all you care about is Islam, I've explained to you how the Jizyah works. The British Christians conquered our lands and imposed their way of life on us, they collected taxes from us, we fought their wars but Muslims are your problem. If you don't acknowledge this, I'll stop replying you on this issue because you're very dishonest.

Christian men are only required to pay Jizyah because they don't fight, whilst Muslims are to fight and still pay the Zakat. Muslims protect you from invaders, you don't get to talk!!!!



I'm sticking to the topic, stop the hypocrisy. Are you saying christians never conquered lands and imposed taxes on the people?

You say Christians killing etc. Who is a Christian ?someone who follows Christ. Did Christ ever participate in wars or fights ? No. Just cos someone is British or American does not make him ba Christian. But Mohammed on the other hand was a war Lord and his followers followed his footsteps of raiding and looting.

fortran12:

You say Christians killing etc. Who is a Christian ?someone who follows Christ. Did Christ ever participate in wars or fights ?

-Was it not Jesus that said he didn't come for peace but Sword? Is Sword used for cutting suya?

-Was is it not this same Christ that commanded his followers to sell their cloaks and buy swords? What are swords for?

-Was is it not this same guy that claimed according to Luke 19:27, that his enemies that don't accept his rule would be brought and slaughtered?

-Was is it not this same Jesus that was the God of the old testament that commanded nasty wars which led to massacres of thousands?

And what would Jesus do to unbelievers in the second coming? Shower them Roses?

You're a joke mehn, this is dumb tbh

No. Just cos someone is British or American does not make him ba Christian.

So wars sanctified by God's representative on Earth (Pope) isnt a religious war? Crusades whereby you killed thousands of Muslims, Jews, and even Christians isn't a religious one? The funny this is, while slaughtering people, you Christians were shouting "God wills it" just as how some Jihadists shout "God is great" whilst killing and maiming innocent soul.

The British empire was a Christian empire just as how Spanish and Portuguese (another Christian empire responsible for spreading Christianity and killing millions), they spread Christianity after conquering the people. How do you think Christianity came into Nigeria?

But Mohammed on the other hand was a war Lord and his followers followed his footsteps of raiding and looting.

David, Moses, Abraham and many other Prophets fought, so you're indirectly attacking them if you attack Prophet Muhammad for providing for his people who were persecuted and driven from their homes. Their properties sold by different tribes in which the Muslims had to fight.

Rubbish!

fortran12:

You dont get it. You made a statement that none of the disciples were there. So what is your proof. Give me a reference to that statemsnt you made. You made a claim, the burden of proof is on you to defend that claim with a reference.

Ok sir, I'll give you proof from your Bible. While refuting my proofs, please I'm begging don't speculate, whatever you say should be backed by evidences from the Bible. Agreed?

Demmzy15:
Ok sir, I'll give you proof from your Bible. While refuting my proofs, please I'm begging don't speculate, whatever you say should be backed by evidences from the Bible. Agreed?

Yes . as long as you don't speculate either