₦airaland Forum

Op, tell me your church and the name of your pastor. Let me continue from there. I want to make sure I am arguing with a Christian.
Most of you are not even baptised, can you imagine?

blueAgent:
You are talking trash.

I have asked you to proof your source and you cannot .

This shows that you are ignorant of what you are saying.

there is nothing to prove, jesus is not important to anything..so it does not take my time..god says if i sin, i should sincerely and genuinely ask for forgiveness and he will forgive me...he never said somebody was coming to die

so i am asking you of what importance is jesus to anything?

blueAgent:
Bible verse to ponder on.

Isaiah 9:6

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the
government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall
be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The
everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

it is talking about king Hezekiah...the child has already been born when Isaiah was writing, he was around ix years old then....

blueAgent:
This is crap.

How did you know that Jesus is not part of God's plan and was not in the Bible?

Give a source of your information.

that is the problem, there is no source...Amos 3:7 says 'god does nothing without first telling his servant the prophet, i have read all the prophet from Moses to Malachi, there is no where god reveal that his son was coming to die for sins...

so the Jesus story is not from God at all....
that is my point..

sonmvayina:
it is talking about king Hezekiah...the child has already been born when Isaiah was writing, he was around ix years old then....

You are dumb.

So a human child was called everlasting Father, Mighty God?

Alexandro15:
Op, tell me your church and the name of your pastor. Let me continue from there. I want to make sure I am arguing with a Christian.
Most of you are not even baptised, can you imagine?

What's the benefit of been baptized into paganism(Aka Catholic Church)?

Alexandro15:
I need her help. Deal with it!

Clown, you will need her more in Hell fire.😂

johnw47:
laugh, poor copy cat pussy cat

Idiot, I never knew that your name was among the list of names I normally post or quote.

Are you still pained that I exposed your naivety?

You should count it a privilege that I quoted a dullard like you.

Alexandro15:
The book of James says this:

“The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.” – James 5:16

Now, who is more righteous than those perfected in heaven? Thus, we ask the Saints to pray for us, because the Bible tells us they have powerful prayers. The next question is then – “can they hear us?” The answer is yes. Jesus says:

“And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” -Matthew 22:31-32

Since we are all made members of Christ’s mystical body, we are all connected to one another and even death cannot separate us from Christ. Christ could have told us that praying for one another didn’t matter, but he did the opposite. He told us (as did Paul and many others in Scripture) to pray for one another, because God acts through his Church on earth, and in heaven, to give us grace through the prayers of others.

What I believe is the most amazing evidence from the Bible of the Saints in heaven hearing our prayers is from the book of Revelation.

“When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.” -Revelations 5:8

–We see that the elders and four living creatures (who represent the Saints and Angels in heaven) are offering the prayers of those on earth before Jesus. I don’t think it could get much clearer. In Revelation 8 there is another incident of heavenly intercession.

“Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with burning coals from the altar, and hurled it down to the earth. There were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.” -Revelations 8:3-5
Based on the overwhelming evidence from Scripture, the constant Tradition of the Church as well as the fact that it is theologically acceptable, we can be assured that the Saints in heaven can hear our prayers and are praying for us.

This is why we pray to Saints.

Remember that prayer to Saints is not the same idea as prayer to God. There is no worship or adoration of the Saints. Rather, just like we would ask someone on earth to pray for us, we do the same with our heavenly friends.

In John 2, at the Wedding in Cana, we see Mary ask Jesus to help after the hosts run out of wine. He performs His first miracle at her behest, even though he tells her it “is not my time.” This is remarkable, because Jesus still does what his mother asks, even though it wasn’t time to reveal his divine powers. This shows us the powerful intercession she has with Jesus.

To ask her to pray for us is therefore biblical, logical, and good.

Mary pray for us!

Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by blueAgent
( m): 3:59pm On Jul 01, 2017
Catholics to praying to dead saints is it biblical.
One of the customs of Catholics is to pray to dead Saints to
intercede on their behalf in Heaven.This doctrine is based on
the belief that dead Saints are alive and already in Heaven this
erroneous belief is one of the biggest decits of Satan.We will
take a look at this issue with the Bible as our guide.
First what is the State of the dead? are they living or do they
ascend into Heaven immediately after death.
Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of
man, in whom there is no help. 146:4 His breath goeth forth,
he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecclesiastes9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the
dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a
reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 9:6 Also their
love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither
have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is
done under the sun.
This Bible verses clearly show that the dead including the
Saints are not in a state of consciousness but rather their
thoughts,love,passions are all perished.
Death is likened to sleep,a man who is at sleep is not in
control of his thoughts,actions or environment, same with
death. Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the
heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out
of their sleep. 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the
days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto
them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake
him out of sleep. 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he
sleep, he shall do well. 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his
death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in
sleep.
So if the Saints are not in Heaven where can they be? The
Saints are not in Heaven as we can see from those Bible
verses they are all asleep in their graves or earth(dust).we will
look at more bible verses to confirm this.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God
bring with him. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of
the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming
of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the
earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to
shame and everlasting contempt.
This Bible verses confirm that the dead sleep in the dust not in
Heaven.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the
which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Even David the man after God's heart,a man who Jesus Christ
was named after 'Thou son of David' did not ascend into
Heaven after his death.
I don't think there is anyone more qualified to be called a
Saint than David.but still David did not ascend to Heaven at
his death he is still lying in his grave waiting for the
resurrection. Acts2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak
unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and
buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he
saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my
right hand,
Even David knew he was not to go to Heaven immedately
after his death so he wrote in Psalms 17:15 As for me, I will
behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I
AWAKE, with thy likeness.
Considering the State of the dead,saints including
Mary,Paul,Joseph,e.t.c while do Catholics still pray to them. It
is apparent that they are praying to Idols and Demons in the
name of praying to
Saints.Mary,Paul,Peter,James,John,Stephen e.t.c are all
sleeping in their graves they neither eat,work, Think, or hear
nor intercede in prayers on behalf of others.
This evil doctrine has been sold to the public especially
Catholics who believe that dead people go straight to Hell or
Heaven immediately after death.
People go to Heaven or Hell on the Judgement day or day of
resurrection not before then. Daniel12:2,John5:28-29 &
1cor15:12-14,1cor16-19.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the
which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 5:29 And
shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the
resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the
resurrection of damnation.
This bible verses confirm that the dead and Saints are not in
Heaven but are waiting for the resurrection for if they were
already in Heaven the bible will not be talking about a
resurrection of the Saints or the dead.what will they be
resurrecting from since they are already in Heaven?
To Catholics pls deciet from praying to dead Saints they
cannot hear you or intercede on your behalf.Only one name
has been given to us by which man can be saved and that is
the name of Jesus Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any
other: for there is none other name under heaven given among
men, whereby we must be saved.
Only Jesus not any dead saint or Mary or Paul or Pope.
We are expected to pray to God only through the name of
Jesus not through any dead Saints John14:13 no other person
can.mediate between man and God ,not Mary,Paul or angels
but only Jesus Christ is our mediator 1Timothy 2:5 For there
is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man
Christ Jesus;
Christ and the Holy Spirit which is the spirit of Christ can
intercede on our behalf Romans 8:34,
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities:
for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the
Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which
cannot be uttered. 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts
knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh
intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Alexandro15:
The book of James says this:

“The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.” – James 5:16

Now, who is more righteous than those perfected in heaven? Thus, we ask the Saints to pray for us, because the Bible tells us they have powerful prayers. The next question is then – “can they hear us?” The answer is yes. Jesus says:

“And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” -Matthew 22:31-32

Since we are all made members of Christ’s mystical body, we are all connected to one another and even death cannot separate us from Christ. Christ could have told us that praying for one another didn’t matter, but he did the opposite. He told us (as did Paul and many others in Scripture) to pray for one another, because God acts through his Church on earth, and in heaven, to give us grace through the prayers of others.

What I believe is the most amazing evidence from the Bible of the Saints in heaven hearing our prayers is from the book of Revelation.

“When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.” -Revelations 5:8

–We see that the elders and four living creatures (who represent the Saints and Angels in heaven) are offering the prayers of those on earth before Jesus. I don’t think it could get much clearer. In Revelation 8 there is another incident of heavenly intercession.

“Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with burning coals from the altar, and hurled it down to the earth. There were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.” -Revelations 8:3-5
Based on the overwhelming evidence from Scripture, the constant Tradition of the Church as well as the fact that it is theologically acceptable, we can be assured that the Saints in heaven can hear our prayers and are praying for us.

This is why we pray to Saints.

Remember that prayer to Saints is not the same idea as prayer to God. There is no worship or adoration of the Saints. Rather, just like we would ask someone on earth to pray for us, we do the same with our heavenly friends.

In John 2, at the Wedding in Cana, we see Mary ask Jesus to help after the hosts run out of wine. He performs His first miracle at her behest, even though he tells her it “is not my time.” This is remarkable, because Jesus still does what his mother asks, even though it wasn’t time to reveal his divine powers. This shows us the powerful intercession she has with Jesus.

To ask her to pray for us is therefore biblical, logical, and good.

Mary pray for us!

I have written an article against this doctrine before.

https://www.nairaland.com/3894170/catholics-praying-dead-saints-biblical

blueAgent:
Idiot, I never knew that your name was among the list of names I normally post or quote.

Are you still pained that I exposed your naivety?

You should count it a privilege that I quoted a dullard like you.

laughing, poor know nothing pussy cat

blueAgent:
I have written an article against this doctrine before.

https://www.nairaland.com/3894170/catholics-praying-dead-saints-biblical

your obsession with the original Christians is laughable. Goodluck trying to break protestantism further tho! It’s the only thing you can achieve with your obsession. Further division of the minority (protestants)

blueAgent:
Clown you will need it more in Hell fire.😂

joker! I’m sure you look as funny as your jokes

blueAgent:
What's the benefit of been baptized into paganism(Aka Catholic Church)?

cos what you call paganism is what true Christians refer to as the road to salvation

Alexandro15:
Op, tell me your church and the name of your pastor. Let me continue from there. I want to make sure I am arguing with a Christian.
Most of you are not even baptised, can you imagine?

the pastor( CEO) he looks up to, isn’t even Christian to start with. They way these guys have a shallow understand of theological, Christian, biblical issues ehn... no wonder protestants tend to have low IQs

blueAgent:
One popular prayer in Mary’s honor is the Hail Holy Queen ,
which is known in Latin as the Salve Regina. It is traditionally
included as part of praying the rosary.
For Catholics who are reading this, please try to overcome
your familiarity with this text and really look at the words.
Doesn’t this sound like worship?
“Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our
sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor
banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our
sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn,
then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward
us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit
of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin
Mary.”

worship being generic as utmost respect and care
OR
worship specifically meanining to regard a being as ones god/God?


Which one?
The way a man cherishes his children beyond every other thing could mean he worships them ( using the 1st definition)

Doesn’t mean he takes his children as his God.

blueAgent:
You are dumb.

So a human child was called everlasting Father, Mighty God?

That is the real translation, please educate yourself.

sonmvayina:
That is the real translation, please educate yourself.

No wonder you are a Muslim, pretending to be a christain.

DownChelsea:
worship being generic as utmost respect and care
OR
worship specifically meanining to regard a being as ones god/God?


Which one?
The way a man cherishes his children beyond every other thing could mean he worships them ( using the 1st definition)

Doesn’t mean he takes his children as his God.

That's true.
The only way we can know which one is been reffered to is by observing the Man's action towards his children.

If he loves and adore his children, means he will care and provide for there needs.

but it does not mean he will bow to them,pray to them, sing to them, give them names and titles that only a god(God) should bear that becomes worship.

DownChelsea:
cos what you call paganism is what true Christians refer to as the road to salvation

That's not true, the only road to salvation is Christ Jesus.
Acts 4:12.
9 . If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the
impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it
known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the
name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom
God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand
here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at
nought of you builders, which is become the head of the
corner. 12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is
none other name under heaven given among men, whereby
we must be saved.

DownChelsea:
joker! I’m sure you look as funny as your jokes

I look as mean and strict as my points and argument.

DownChelsea:
your obsession with the original Christians is laughable. Goodluck trying to break protestantism further tho! It’s the only thing you can achieve with your obsession. Further division of the minority (protestants)

This is the same kind of opposition and challenges that Martin Luther faced but today we all celeberate his achievement.

Christaintity and protestantism need revival they need to go back to the true word of God and not traditions of men been taught in the Churches today.

blueAgent:
No wonder you are a Muslim, pretending to be a christain.

i am not a christian and i am not a muslim....i am ibo from delta state......did you get that?

blueAgent:
This is the same kind of opposition and challenges that Martin Luther faced but today we all celeberate his achievement.

Christaintity and protestantism need revival they need to go back to the true word of God and not traditions of men been taught in the Churches today.

achievement? What achievement? Confusion? Division? And clowing up and down in lack of direction? You’ve been a joke enough, see if you can change that

blueAgent:
I look as mean and strict as my points and argument.

I don’t believe a man can look mean acting overly senseless

blueAgent:
That's not true, the only road to salvation is Christ Jesus.
Acts 4:12.
9 . If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the
impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it
known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the
name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom
God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand
here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at
nought of you builders, which is become the head of the
corner. 12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is
none other name under heaven given among men, whereby
we must be saved.

nobody has told you otherwise. Or has anybody faulted the scripture? Except you!

blueAgent:
That's true.
The only way we can know which one is been reffered to is by observing the Man's action towards his children.

If he loves and adore his children, means he will care and provide for there needs.

but it does not mean he will bow to them,pray to them, sing to them, give them names and titles that only a god(God) should bear that becomes worship.

this is quite too foolish a post. I could ask my children to pray for me (if I was Christian) the way Catholics ask Mary and saints to so, I could sing to my children, i could give them names and praise them in admiration. Doesn’t mean I take them to be my God. If an obsessed fellow like you walks up to me and asks me for clarification, I will oblige such fellow by stress the fact that my veneration of my children “in my heart” doesn’t equate to worshipping them “as my god”

sonmvayina:
i am not a christian and i am not a muslim....i am ibo from delta state......did you get that?

No wonder your argument is off point.

blueAgent:
Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by blueAgent
( m): 3:59pm On Jul 01, 2017
Catholics to praying to dead saints is it biblical.
One of the customs of Catholics is to pray to dead Saints to
intercede on their behalf in Heaven.This doctrine is based on
the belief that dead Saints are alive and already in Heaven this
erroneous belief is one of the biggest decits of Satan.We will
take a look at this issue with the Bible as our guide.
First what is the State of the dead? are they living or do they
ascend into Heaven immediately after death.
Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of
man, in whom there is no help. 146:4 His breath goeth forth,
he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecclesiastes9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the
dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a
reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 9:6 Also their
love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither
have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is
done under the sun.
This Bible verses clearly show that the dead including the
Saints are not in a state of consciousness but rather their
thoughts,love,passions are all perished.
Death is likened to sleep,a man who is at sleep is not in
control of his thoughts,actions or environment, same with
death. Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the
heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out
of their sleep. 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the
days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto
them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake
him out of sleep. 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he
sleep, he shall do well. 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his
death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in
sleep.
So if the Saints are not in Heaven where can they be? The
Saints are not in Heaven as we can see from those Bible
verses they are all asleep in their graves or earth(dust).we will
look at more bible verses to confirm this.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God
bring with him. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of
the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming
of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the
earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to
shame and everlasting contempt.
This Bible verses confirm that the dead sleep in the dust not in
Heaven.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the
which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Even David the man after God's heart,a man who Jesus Christ
was named after 'Thou son of David' did not ascend into
Heaven after his death.
I don't think there is anyone more qualified to be called a
Saint than David.but still David did not ascend to Heaven at
his death he is still lying in his grave waiting for the
resurrection. Acts2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak
unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and
buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he
saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my
right hand,
Even David knew he was not to go to Heaven immedately
after his death so he wrote in Psalms 17:15 As for me, I will
behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I
AWAKE, with thy likeness.
Considering the State of the dead,saints including
Mary,Paul,Joseph,e.t.c while do Catholics still pray to them. It
is apparent that they are praying to Idols and Demons in the
name of praying to
Saints.Mary,Paul,Peter,James,John,Stephen e.t.c are all
sleeping in their graves they neither eat,work, Think, or hear
nor intercede in prayers on behalf of others.
This evil doctrine has been sold to the public especially
Catholics who believe that dead people go straight to Hell or
Heaven immediately after death.
People go to Heaven or Hell on the Judgement day or day of
resurrection not before then. Daniel12:2,John5:28-29 &
1cor15:12-14,1cor16-19.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the
which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 5:29 And
shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the
resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the
resurrection of damnation.
This bible verses confirm that the dead and Saints are not in
Heaven but are waiting for the resurrection for if they were
already in Heaven the bible will not be talking about a
resurrection of the Saints or the dead.what will they be
resurrecting from since they are already in Heaven?
To Catholics pls deciet from praying to dead Saints they
cannot hear you or intercede on your behalf.Only one name
has been given to us by which man can be saved and that is
the name of Jesus Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any
other: for there is none other name under heaven given among
men, whereby we must be saved.
Only Jesus not any dead saint or Mary or Paul or Pope.
We are expected to pray to God only through the name of
Jesus not through any dead Saints John14:13 no other person
can.mediate between man and God ,not Mary,Paul or angels
but only Jesus Christ is our mediator 1Timothy 2:5 For there
is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man
Christ Jesus;
Christ and the Holy Spirit which is the spirit of Christ can
intercede on our behalf Romans 8:34,
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities:
for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the
Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which
cannot be uttered. 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts
knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh
intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

All you wrote is nonsense. I will refute everything with a single verse for I don't have your time again.

Luke 23: 43 " In truth I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.

blueAgent:
Ubenedictus, Yale9, Leis, Horlufemi, Aizenosa, Jidykejay, Kamxin,MuttleyLaff,vaxx,Bruno3000,Hundredfold4lif, Gggg102, UbiPetrus, KENFERDYOORI, budaatum, Syncan, HumbledbYGrace, UjSizzle, pastormustwacc, johnw47

johnw47:
fool, i am neither rc or worship mary

blueAgent:
No wonder you are a Muslim, pretending to be a christain.

sonmvayina:
i am not a christian and i am not a muslim....i am ibo from delta state......did you get that?

this blueagent paranoid fool knows nothing
it is just a big false accuser like it's daddy the devil:

Tit 2:3  The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

she old woman false accuser

DownChelsea:
this is quite too foolish a post. I could ask my children to pray for me (if I was Christian) the way Catholics ask Mary and saints to so, I could sing to my children, i could give them names and praise them in admiration. Doesn’t mean I take them to be my God. If an obsessed fellow like you walks up to me and asks me for clarification, I will oblige such fellow by stress the fact that my veneration of my children “in my heart” doesn’t equate to worshipping them “as my god”

Keep fooling yourself.
So at your age you cannot differentiate between to pray FOR someone and TO pray to someone?