₦airaland Forum

shadeyinka:
Of course such a church cannot be an ideal church. It's a church that is not yet qualified to appoint elders/deacons where all but the woman in question is a baby in the Lord.

This may occur only in the remote village without a single church presence.

The question really is, : if a woman is heading a ministry (Joyce Meyer), is she under the permissive will of God?

I think so but I stand to be corrected.

hashtagged:
Where? By who? . Just stop being a sexists in the shadows.

Did Deborah not lead armies of men into battle. God is impartial he can pick anyone to lead including women. Stop looking down on them.

Barak did and not Deborah

shadeyinka:
Of course such a church cannot be an ideal church. It's a church that is not yet qualified to appoint elders/deacons where all but the woman in question is a baby in the Lord.

This may occur only in the remote village without a single church presence.

The question really is, : if a woman is heading a ministry (Joyce Meyer), is she under the permissive will of God?

If God called her to pastor, she is in the 'perfectest' will of God and has nothing at all in all of scripture against her position.

MuttleyLaff:
I am going to leave your comment like it is, and let others come to correct you and it or let you yourself, come to correct yourself about what "men" in Greek indeed and truly means, lol. Jokingly speak, maybe, if it was a woman who wrote that, perhaps, its "women' in place of "men" we would have seen and be reading, lol.

BlueAngel444:
what did he twist

JMAN05:
Verse 8 says he gave gifts unto men". The interlinear, word for word says "gave gifts to the men".

Bodydialect57:
Aimee Semple MacPherson, a woman, the founder and first General Overseer of Foursquare Gospel church comes to mind here.

This is to clarify Eph 4:8-11. Eph 4:8-11 is a quotation of Paul from Ps 68:18, and Paul never tried to change a single word of it. The actual interpretation of both the Hebrew and Greek texts correctly reads "...gave gifts of men...". In other words, the gifts he gave were those of the human race that were apostles, prophets.... You can confirm this on every possible bible exposition too. In the Hebrew, the word used for men is "Adam", a Hebrew word always used to represent mankind, humanity or the Adamic race in General or multiplicity. It is never used gender-specifically, as there are gender specific words for humans in hebrew, 'ish' (male), 'ishaw' (female). In the Greek as well the word for men is 'anthropos', which also refers to humanity in General or multiplicity, also distinct from the Greek words for male(aner) and female(guner)
Again I see no need for those standing on the other side to continue this argument until they can answer my teaser that solite ran away from, with a bolt, when he saw the light.

I asked you a simple question and you failed woefully in your attempt to answer. How can the woman in 1Tim2:15 be a literal female, when this woman's salvation is through childbirth. What happens to barren or celibate women. What about unbelieving females who also give birth, will they be saved or partake in Christ's work for making babies, not to mention those out of wedlock. You gave a clumsy and comical answer that could pass for nairaland joke of the year- that women, having by nature, controlling tendencies over men(as if we men don't and which is also a big lie in many cases of women I've met, who are rather too submissive), will be saved from that when they give birth...my, my. MuttleyLaff could help us with a good meme for that. There isn't even a single dominant woman who became submissive after childbirth. My question was just to help all see that this was a parable of Paul. Or again would you say Paul is delegating prayer to literal men (excluding women) and dresscodes to literal women

.
As a matter of fact, I believe all my replies on this thread to Solite have only proven without doubt that he misunderstood the proverb Paul used, taking it literally, thereby arriving at this doctrine of demons.

BlueAngel444:
Barak did and not Deborah

But it was a woman right so I proved you wrong

Finallydead:
If God called her to pastor, she is in the 'perfectest' will of God and has nothing at all in all of scripture against her position.

That would be a violation of the logos.

We can try to reinterprete the word if we are not okay with it but it doesn't change what was written.

I believe Christians should be careful of normalizing aberrations and exceptions.

solite3:
I think so but I stand to be corrected.

It could be like the case of Deborah. When the "men" will not have the required faith to fight a war, a woman is raised up by God to do the job

shadeyinka:
That would be a violation of the logos.

We can try to reinterprete the word if we are not okay with it but it doesn't change what was written.

I believe Christians should be careful of normalizing aberrations and exceptions.

The real problem we should be wary of is interpreting the written scripture without the help of the Spirit. That is how we have reinterpreted scripture from what He really meant and take our reinterpretations as true interpretations, normalising our self-made falsehoods and aberrations, then going on to call valid critiques aberrations. If we are unable to drop traditions of men when they are clearly shown to be inconsistent, then we do not really seek truth, but prefer traditions to truth. If you still don't know that 1Tim2 is figurative, then do the simple honours of answering this question for Solite.

I asked you a simple question and you failed woefully in your attempt to answer. How can the woman in 1Tim2:15 be a literal female, when this woman's salvation is through childbirth. What happens to barren or celibate women. What about unbelieving females who also give birth, will they be saved or partake in Christ's work for making babies, not to mention those out of wedlock. You gave a clumsy and comical answer that could pass for nairaland joke of the year- that women, having by nature, controlling tendencies over men(as if we men don't and which is also a big lie in many cases of women I've met, who are rather too submissive), will be saved from that when they give birth...my, my. MuttleyLaff could help us with a good meme for that. There isn't even a single dominant woman who became submissive after childbirth. My question was just to help all see that this was a parable of Paul. Or again would you say Paul is delegating prayer to literal men (excluding women) and dresscodes to literal women.

If you cannot answer this question directly but still wish to believe what you've always believed, then it will be obvious if truth really matters to you.

hashtagged:
But it was a woman right so I proved you wrong

so Barak is a woman abi well done sir but u're mad o

BlueAngel444:
so Barak is a woman abi well done sir but u're mad o

Read up Deborah, I think you don't know your Bible . And the insult how can you even preach to convince me if your tone is like that.

JMAN05:
Verse 8 says he gave gifts unto men". The interlinear, word for word says "gave gifts to the men".

MuttleyLaff:
I am going to leave your comment like it is, and let others come to correct you and it or let you yourself, come to correct yourself about what "men" in Greek indeed and truly means, lol. Jokingly speak, maybe, if it was a woman who wrote that, perhaps, its "women' in place of "men" we would have seen and be reading, lol.

CaveAdullam:
You are just trying to twist 1 Corinthians 12:28 and Ephesians 4:11 to satisfy your opinion. Both passages are clear like daylight, and there is no need trying to upsurge a particular interpretation.

My points are already stated in my previous posts, repeating myself will be of no essence.

Thanks.

God bless.

BlueAngel444:
what did he twist

Finallydead:
This is to clarify Eph 4:8-11. Eph 4:8-11 is a quotation of Paul from Ps 68:18, and Paul never tried to change a single word of it. The actual interpretation of both the Hebrew and Greek texts correctly reads "...gave gifts of men...". In other words, the gifts he gave were those of the human race that were apostles, prophets.... You can confirm this on every possible bible exposition too. In the Hebrew, the word used for men is "Adam", a Hebrew word always used to represent mankind, humanity or the Adamic race in General or multiplicity. It is never used gender-specifically, as there are gender specific words for humans in hebrew, 'ish' (male), 'ishaw' (female). In the Greek as well the word for men is 'anthropos', which also refers to humanity in General or multiplicity, also distinct from the Greek words for male(aner) and female(guner)
Again I see no need for those standing on the other side to continue this argument until they can answer my teaser that solite ran away from, with a bolt, when he saw the light.
.
As a matter of fact, I believe all my replies on this thread to Solite3 have only proven without doubt that he misunderstood the proverb Paul used, taking it literally, thereby arriving at this doctrine of demons.

God bless you real good FinallyDead, for being an admirably ardent stickler for the ethos of 2 Timothy 2:15 but my brother JMAN05 here, whom I have the utmost respect and regards for, has decided to interpret the greek word "anthropos" from where we have the English word "anthropology" (i.e. the scientific study of humans, human behavior and societies in the past and present) to mean and/or to be something exclusively about males and/or men only, lol

I just love how our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and the Apostles (e.g. Peter, Paul etcetera) usually backtrack, go down into scripture (i.e. the Old Testament) and then, either verbatim quote from them or paraphrase them. They demonstrate that the New Testament indeed, is in the Old Testament concealed, and so therefore go about revealing the Old Testament in the New Testament. Praise the Lord Alleluia. God is Good jor.

MuttleyLaff:
God bless you real good FinallyDead, for being an admirably ardent stickler for the ethos of 2 Timothy 2:15 but my brother JMAN05 here, whom I have the utmost respect and regards for, has decided to interpret the greek word "anthropos" from where we have the English word "anthropology" (i.e. the scientific study of humans, human behavior and societies in the past and present) to mean and/or to be something exclusively about males and/or men only, lol

I just love how our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and the Apostles (e.g. Peter, Paul etcetera) usually backtrack, go down into scripture (i.e. the Old Testament) and then, either verbatim quote from them or paraphrase them. They demonstrate that the New Testament indeed, is in the Old Testament concealed, and so therefore go about revealing the Old Testament in the New Testament. Praise the Lord Alleluia. God is Good jor.

That was a finishing touch especially with that Psalms 68:18. I think the argument is Finallydead except solite3 gives an answer to that question.

CaveAdullam:
That was a finishing touch especially with that Psalms 68:18.
I think the argument is Finallydead except solite3 gives an answer to that question

[img]https://s2/images/MuttleyDriveLaff.gif[/img]
I saw what you did there
Yeah, its indeed FinallyDead
I lurved your pun there and enjoyed the wordplay, lol

"⁴ Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time.
⁵ She used to sit under the palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the people of Israel came up to her for judgment.
⁶ She sent and summoned Barak the son of Abinoam from Kedesh-naphtali and said to him,
“Has not the Lord, the God of Israel, commanded you,
‘Go, gather your men at Mount Tabor, taking 10,000 from the people of Naphtali and the people of Zebulun. "
- Judges 4:4-6

We had women prophets in the Old Testament who authoritatively exercised their spiritual gift and men didnt complain about it. In Judges 4:4-6 above, Barak, the general in the Israelite army, respected Deborah and unquestionably followed her orders. Deborah didnt abuse her position/office and so Israel prospered under her leadership.

People are just unnecessarily having old-fashioned sexist attitudes, they as a result of this, clumsily interprete the bible and so the idea of women leaders gets them rubbed up the wrong way.

What Apostle Paul, was saying when he said that he doesnt approve of women usurping authority, is that, he doesnt approve of a woman taking a position of power or importance illegally or by force. Note he never said: "I dont give the woman authority", but he said "I dont tolerate the woman usurp authority over man"

[img]https://s5/images/1-Tim-2_12.gif[/img]
Apostle Paul certainly wouldnt approve this kind of behaviour. Virtuous women would never dream of doing whats in the above picture to her husband/men/neighbour

hashtagged:
Read up Deborah, I think you don't know your Bible . And the insult how can you even preach to convince me if your tone is like that.

Wait o, preach to who, convince who... why? For what na

Did u ever see Jesus preach to the Pharisees to repent, no no no na.. woe to you bro, woe to you.

If you won't listen to the simple truth y should u listen to me

BlueAngel444:
Wait o, preach to who, convince who... why? For what na

Did u ever see Jesus preach to the Pharisees to repent, no no no na.. woe to you bro, woe to you.

If you won't listen to the simple truth y should u listen to me

So you are not only a sexists but a narcissist. Double trouble. I can't listen to what dosent make sense in my ears convince me with the scriptures

shadeyinka:
It could be like the case of Deborah. When the "men" will not have the required faith to fight a war, a woman is raised up by God to do the job

So Deborah led an army and fought a war?

Which bible version u dey read sef

MuttleyLaff:
[img]https://s2/images/MuttleyDriveLaff.gif[/img]
I saw what you did there
Yeah, its indeed FinallyDead
I lurved your pun there and enjoyed the wordplay, lol

"⁴ Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time.
⁵ She used to sit under the palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the people of Israel came up to her for judgment.
⁶ She sent and summoned Barak the son of Abinoam from Kedesh-naphtali and said to him,
“Has not the Lord, the God of Israel, commanded you,
‘Go, gather your men at Mount Tabor, taking 10,000 from the people of Naphtali and the people of Zebulun. "
- Judges 4:4-6

We had women prophets in the Old Testament who authoritatively exercised their spiritual gift and men didnt complain about it. In Judges 4:4-6 above, Barak, the general in the Israelite army, respected Deborah and unquestionably followed her orders. Deborah didnt abuse her position/office and so Israel prospered under her leadership.

People are just unnecessarily having old-fashioned sexist attitudes, they as a result of this, clumsily interprete the bible and so the idea of women leaders gets them rubbed up the wrong way.

What Apostle Paul, was saying when he said that he doesnt approve of women usurping authority, is that, he doesnt approve of a woman taking a position of power or importance illegally or by force. Note he never said: "I dont give the woman authority", but he said "I dont tolerate the woman usurp authority over man"

[img]https://s5/images/1-Tim-2_12.gif[/img]
Apostle Paul certainly wouldnt approve this kind of behaviour. Virtuous women would never dream of doing whats in the above picture to her husband/men/neighbour

What Deborah did I liken to what Huldah did for the king of Israel, what Rebecca did for Jacob (in getting Isaac's blessing)

Finallydead:
This is to clarify Eph 4:8-11. Eph 4:8-11 is a quotation of Paul from Ps 68:18, and Paul never tried to change a single word of it. The actual interpretation of both the Hebrew and Greek texts correctly reads "...gave gifts of men...". In other words, the gifts he gave were those of the human race that were apostles, prophets.... You can confirm this on every possible bible exposition too. In the Hebrew, the word used for men is "Adam", a Hebrew word always used to represent mankind, humanity or the Adamic race in General or multiplicity. It is never used gender-specifically, as there are gender specific words for humans in hebrew, 'ish' (male), 'ishaw' (female). In the Greek as well the word for men is 'anthropos', which also refers to humanity in General or multiplicity, also distinct from the Greek words for male(aner) and female(guner)
Again I see no need for those standing on the other side to continue this argument until they can answer my teaser that solite ran away from, with a bolt, when he saw the light.
.
As a matter of fact, I believe all my replies on this thread to Solite have only proven without doubt that he misunderstood the proverb Paul used, taking it literally, thereby arriving at this doctrine of demons.

This still doesn't mean a WOMAN can be A PASTOR

which is the point of the thread.

Can a woman preach, be an evangelist, spread the gospel ofcourse

But can she head in the church NO

Maybe God is sexist as well abi

And all the priests that served where male... Why was that

Hope you know that is also a list of offices that includes HELPS as well


SO CAN'T GOD SAY NO, GO NO FURTHER, IN THE ACCEPT DON'T DO THIS.


IT IS CLEARLY STATED AND REPEATED IN SCRIPTURE WOMAN SHOULD NOT BE THIS

but you all will leave what is obvious and start searching for what isn't. The Pharisee mentality

CaveAdullam:
That was a finishing touch especially with that Psalms 68:18. I think the argument is Finallydead except solite3 gives an answer to that question.

Wow. I think I owe you a return pun for that.

MuttleyLaff:
I saw what you did there
Yeah, its indeed FinallyDead
I lurved your pun there and enjoyed the wordplay, lol

"⁴ Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time.
⁵ She used to sit under the palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the people of Israel came up to her for judgment.
⁶ She sent and summoned Barak the son of Abinoam from Kedesh-naphtali and said to him,
“Has not the Lord, the God of Israel, commanded you,
‘Go, gather your men at Mount Tabor, taking 10,000 from the people of Naphtali and the people of Zebulun. "
- Judges 4:4-6

We had women prophets in the Old Testament who authoritatively exercised their spiritual gift and men didnt complain about it. In Judges 4:4-6 above, Barak, the general in the Israelite army, respected Deborah and unquestionably followed her orders. Deborah didnt abuse her position/office and so Israel prospered under her leadership.

As if they skipped this part of scripture that God put on purpose for their likes

MuttleyLaff:
God bless you real good FinallyDead, for being an admirably ardent stickler for the ethos of 2 Timothy 2:15 but my brother JMAN05 here, whom I have the utmost respect and regards for, has decided to interpret the greek word "anthropos" from where we have the English word "anthropology" (i.e. the scientific study of humans, human behavior and societies in the past and present) to mean and/or to be something exclusively about males and/or men only, lol

I just love how our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and the Apostles (e.g. Peter, Paul etcetera) usually backtrack, go down into scripture (i.e. the Old Testament) and then, either verbatim quote from them or paraphrase them. They demonstrate that the New Testament indeed, is in the Old Testament concealed, and so therefore go about revealing the Old Testament in the New Testament. Praise the Lord Alleluia. God is Good jor.

God bless you too sir.

BlueAngel444:
This still doesn't mean a WOMAN can be A PASTOR

which is the point of the thread.

Can a woman preach, be an evangelist, spread the gospel ofcourse

But can she head in the church NO

Maybe God is sexist as well abi

And all the priests that served where male... Why was that

Hope you know that is also a list of offices that includes HELPS as well


SO CAN'T GOD SAY NO, GO NO FURTHER, IN THE ACCEPT DON'T DO THIS.


IT IS CLEARLY STATED AND REPEATED IN SCRIPTURE WOMAN SHOULD NOT BE THIS

but you all will leave what is obvious and start searching for what isn't. The Pharisee mentality

BlueAngel you're back on my mention, welcome. is it you who will save Solite from this

I asked you a simple question and you failed woefully in your attempt to answer. How can the woman in 1Tim2:15 be a literal female, when this woman's salvation is through childbirth. What happens to barren or celibate women. What about unbelieving females who also give birth, will they be saved or partake in Christ's work for making babies, not to mention those out of wedlock. You gave a clumsy and comical answer that could pass for nairaland joke of the year- that women, having by nature, controlling tendencies over men(as if we men don't and which is also a big lie in many cases of women I've met, who are rather too submissive), will be saved from that when they give birth...my, my. MuttleyLaff could help us with a good meme for that. There isn't even a single dominant woman who became submissive after childbirth. My question was just to help all see that this was a parable of Paul. Or again would you say Paul is delegating prayer to literal men (excluding women) and dresscodes to literal women.

If you can answer this correctly, we'll say it's not figurative, otherwise it's figurative.

BlueAngel444:
What Deborah did I liken to what Huldah did for the king of Israel, what Rebecca did for Jacob (in getting Isaac's blessing)

Deborah was the leader of Israel in her time and Barak was her general in the Israelite army. Huldah certainly wielded a high level of prophetic authority and possessed teaching acumen strong enough that the high priest, chief scribe and king (i.e. all men) didnt find it odd submitting to Huldah's authority, lol.

Ah, what Rebecca did for Jacob, and the style employed in getting Isaac's blessing is exactly something Apostle Paul and any right thiking believer would not approve of

BlueAngel444:
This still doesn't mean a WOMAN can be A PASTOR, which is the point of the thread.

Can a woman preach, be an evangelist, spread the gospel of course. But can she head in the church NO

The head of the church is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

BlueAngel444:
Maybe God is sexist as well abi

May you be forgiven for trying the poor attempt to slander God there

BlueAngel444:
And all the priests that served where male... Why was that

"But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people. You are royal priests, a holy nation, God’s very own possession. As a result, you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light."
- 1 Peter 2:9

"He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father. All glory and power to him forever and ever! Amen."
- Revelation 1:6

Every individual believer, regardless of gender/sex, has direct access to God and that without needing any ecclesiastical third party

BlueAngel444:
Hope you know that is also a list of offices that includes HELPS as well
SO CAN'T GOD SAY NO, GO NO FURTHER, IN THE ACCEPT DON'T DO THIS.
IT IS CLEARLY STATED AND REPEATED IN SCRIPTURE WOMAN SHOULD NOT BE THIS
but you all will leave what is obvious and start searching for what isn't. The Pharisee mentality

MuttleyLaff:
"Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers."
- Ephesians 4:11

Each one of you guys, i am 1000% its your wives who wears the trousers in your homes. You're just ceremonial heads of the family, because its your wives who really runs and makes most decisions for your families. You're a bunch of Pharisees and hypocrites, the lot of you solite3, BlueAngel444 and whoever else the caps fits. You all dont even know or properly understand what the meaning the Greek phrase "have authority over man" is smh

What is a pastor, a pastor afterall, is a shepherd and there are plenty shepherdess amock in the bible. Please stop already all this sexist and misogyny. If you arent comfortable with a woman pastor, then leave those comfortable with that.

Ephesians 4:11 above doesnt anywhere in it, ascribe gender, as a qualifier, for any of the gift(s) given there to the church.

"So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God.
Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves."
- Romans 14:22

MuttleyLaff:
Deborah was the leader of Israel in her time and Barak was her general in the Israelite army. Huldah certainly wielded a high level of prophetic authority and possessed teaching acumen strong enough that the high priest, chief scribe and king (i.e. all men) didnt find it odd submitting to Huldah's authority, lol.

Ah, what Rebecca did for Jacob, and the style employed in getting Isaac's blessing is exactly something Apostle Paul and any right thiking believer would not approve of

The head of the church is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

May you be forgiven for trying the poor attempt to slander God there

"But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people. You are royal priests, a holy nation, God’s very own possession. As a result, you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light."
- 1 Peter 2:9

"He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father. All glory and power to him forever and ever! Amen."
- Revelation 1:6

Every individual believer, regardless of gender/sex, has direct access to God and that without needing any ecclesiastical third party



"So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God.
Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves."
- Romans 14:22

Deborah wasn't Israel's leader they had Barak, she was a prophetess. And won't it be wise to say Barak was God's general and it's God who instructed him to go to war

Huldah and Rebecca only spoke what God told them, they weren't taking anyone's authority infact Deborah HELPED Barak
Huldah HELPED the king
Rebecca HELPED Jacob

Infact just like Deborah this women played only one role and it all involved the lives of men who we're leaders and not the women themselves.

If you can mention one woman that God called like he did the men, e.g as God not called you and anointed you for this assignment, to led his people or to speak and instruct his people.

NOT ONE WOMEN, will you ever read that God called this way not one

When Angels visit this women Sarah, Samson's mother, Mary it was to give birth and raise a man that will be anointed and serve God.

This women knew and understood their roles as mothers.

Slander God, Jesus said there is no sex in heaven.

Yes we are all a royal priesthood, you would have also quoted Revelations you o Lord have made us unto you kings and priests ba...

Now back to what I wrote God never said that a woman will be a priest. Infact the OT statements about priests, their marriage picking them etc very similar to Paul's writing of picking pastors.

First off, direct access to God? Seriously, did you skip Lord Jesus oh what anyway try and study what it means to be a priest or pastor, if you understand that the OT is a shadow for the NT and a pattern of heaven.

Anyway lemme skip somethings, priests also taught and read the law for the people to hear. They also blessed the people, like a father would.

Finallydead:
BlueAngel you're back on my mention, welcome. is it you who will save Solite from this

If you can answer this correctly, we'll say it's not figurative, otherwise it's figurative.

I answered u before, I will repeat the verse again

Nevertheless [the sentence put upon women of pain in motherhood does not hinder their souls’ salvation, and] they will be saved [eternally] if they continue in faith and love and holiness with self-control, [saved indeed] through the Childbearing or by the birth of the divine Child.

I believe someone tried to point that to you but you ignored it.

It's not figurative, where is the figure of speech in that statement.

I understand this verse

And to you it might be trying to explain calculus to a person who doesn't even understand bodmas not to talk of algebra.

But its simple and straightforward.

Genesis God spoke about bearing that one child Jesus

Paul mentioned Eve that should have given you a hint to what the childbearing was all about.

shadeyinka:
It could be like the case of Deborah. When the "men" will not have the required faith to fight a war, a woman is raised up by God to do the job

It could, churches that appoint women as pastors are passing out a message that there are no compete men in the church. In all it shows there is an order that God expects the church to uphold which is the God-Christ- man- woman order. Any alteration in this order is abnormal and not ideal whether in the home or in the church.

Finallydead:
This is to clarify Eph 4:8-11. Eph 4:8-11 is a quotation of Paul from Ps 68:18, and Paul never tried to change a single word of it. The actual interpretation of both the Hebrew and Greek texts correctly reads "...gave gifts of men...". In other words, the gifts he gave were those of the human race that were apostles, prophets.... You can confirm this on every possible bible exposition too. In the Hebrew, the word used for men is "Adam", a Hebrew word always used to represent mankind, humanity or the Adamic race in General or multiplicity. It is never used gender-specifically, as there are gender specific words for humans in hebrew, 'ish' (male), 'ishaw' (female). In the Greek as well the word for men is 'anthropos', which also refers to humanity in General or multiplicity, also distinct from the Greek words for male(aner) and female(guner)
Again I see no need for those standing on the other side to continue this argument until they can answer my teaser that solite ran away from, with a bolt, when he saw the light.

the issue is not about gifts but about female leadership in the church, not everyone with a spiritual gift is qualified to be a pastor. Paul stated the requirement to be a pastor. A female may have the gift of teaching or a prophetic gift, It doesnt make them to be pastors.
.

As a matter of fact, I believe all my replies on this thread to Solite have only proven without doubt that he misunderstood the proverb Paul used, taking it literally, thereby arriving at this doctrine of demons.

paul was not speaking in proverb.

1 Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
I have explained this verse before, paul did not say a woman would be saved by childbearing but in childbearing, he did not say that it is child bearing that saves a woman but rather in child bearing process she would be saved. To be saved means to be delivered,
One could be saved from anything, one could be saved from sickness, death, attacks and so on. Because you see what paul said as parable that is why you can not understand it. The key to understand what the woman is saved from is in the book of Genesis. God pronounces birth pain upon the woman and the fact that the woman's desire will always be to her husband. This only applies to a married woman because only a married woman has a husband. It means a woman could find comfort and succour in her child after she has pass through the pain of child birth. She would be satisfied after she has seen her fruit which is the child.

solite3:
the issue is not about gifts but about female leadership in the church, not everyone with a spiritual gift is qualified to be a pastor. Paul stated the requirement to be a pastor. A female may have the gift of teaching or a prophetic gift, It doesnt make them to be pastors.
.
paul was not speaking in proverb.

1 Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
I have explained this verse before, paul did not say a woman would be saved by childbearing but in childbearing, he did not say that it is child bearing that saves a woman but rather in child bearing process she would be saved. To be saved means to be delivered,
One could be saved from anything, one could be saved from sickness, death, attacks and so on. Because you see what paul said as parable that is why you can not understand it. The key to understand what the woman is saved from is in the book of Genesis. God pronounces birth pain upon the woman and the fact that the woman's desire will always be to her husband. This only applies to a married woman because only a married woman has a husband. It means a woman could find comfort and succour in her child after she has pass through the pain of child birth. She would be satisfied after she has seen her fruit which is the child.

BlueAngel444:
I answered u before, I will repeat the verse again

Nevertheless [the sentence put upon women of pain in motherhood does not hinder their souls’ salvation, and] they will be saved [eternally] if they continue in faith and love and holiness with self-control, [saved indeed] through the Childbearing or by the birth of the divine Child.

I believe someone tried to point that to you but you ignored it.

It's not figurative, where is the figure of speech in that statement.

I understand this verse

And to you it might be trying to explain calculus to a person who doesn't even understand bodmas not to talk of algebra.

But its simple and straightforward.

Genesis God spoke about bearing that one child Jesus

Paul mentioned Eve that should have given you a hint to what the childbearing was all about.

Solite, The more you keep trying to answer me, the more you'll keep shifting goalposts. From saying the woman is saved from controlling tendency to now saying she is saved from her desire for her husband. So you still didnt answer in light of the unsaved who give birth or the barren/celibate sisters. Also about how Paul delegates prayer to the Spiritual man and apparel to the spiritual woman. All these would have helped you see your fumbling. See how your answer also directly contradicts BlueAngel444. BlueAngel says it's divine birth, which is even closer, than yours.
Let me help you both see something back in the story of Eve.
The salvation through childbirth that Eve was promised was that her seed would conquer the serpents seed. Take note that no woman on earth has ever or will ever have seed. Only a man has seed. This is also why BlueAngel444 got it wrong. The Lord Jesus can't be the seed because He was never the seed of a woman but the seed of God in the woman. However, his birth was the only birth that would lead to the reality of this expected seed. Satan's seed is inside all mankind too, male and female and there is no woman who ever gave birth or ever will to a conqueror of Satan's seed which is in all humanity.
Again notice that Paul did not put the salvation of Eve in the past birth of Jesus Christ or any previous childbirth even in the church age. He puts it in the future as a future event.
Again notice, the woman's salvation would be initiated ONLY IF she continues to wear the modest apparel he had suggested...sobriety (seriousness) as well as the garments of love, Faith and holiness. it's not just any pregnancy through a man that will do it.
Let me also give you more insight or it may add to the twist, depending. Back to Ps 68:11-12. Do you know that it was a woman again, who dwelt in the house that divided the spoil (which is an event that only takes place on the battlefield by those who fought the war). Those who know the mystery of manhood and womanhood will already see how all scripture fits seamlessly from this. But alas, Paul says it is a great mystery (Eph5:32) (something BlueAngel seems to at least be agreeing with Paul in, even in his error, calling it calculus, lol. If only he knew its deeper than that) and here you all are trying to handle something so deep without the help of the Spirit, no wonder all this mess you're making.
I'll leave it here for now and come back later to add. But chew on this in the mean time.

BlueAngel444:
So Deborah led an army and fought a war?

Which bible version u dey read sef

You're just bent on argument. Did you read my post where I said Deborah led and army? She may infact not have raised a sword BUT she acted as a positive moral force in the army

1. Deborah was a Judge:
Judg 4:5: "And she dwelled under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment."

2. Deborah went to war:
Judg 4:9: "And she said, I will surely go with you: notwithstanding the journey that you take shall not be for your honor; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh."

I have not said anything contrary to the bibles position.

Finallydead:
The real problem we should be wary of is interpreting the written scripture without the help of the Spirit. That is how we have reinterpreted scripture from what He really meant and take our reinterpretations as true interpretations, normalising our self-made falsehoods and aberrations, then going on to call valid critiques aberrations. If we are unable to drop traditions of men when they are clearly shown to be inconsistent, then we do not really seek truth, but prefer traditions to truth. If you still don't know that 1Tim2 is figurative, then do the simple honours of answering this question for Solite.

If you cannot answer this question directly but still wish to believe what you've always believed, then it will be obvious if truth really matters to you.

It seemed you copied someone's quote and pasted it as mine.

We fail as Christians to understand that the scriptures isn't Gods literal words even though they came by God's inspiration. The Bible isn't a book of dos and don'ts but a CHRONICLE of God's dealings with man and the consequences and guidance for living in harmony with God. Apart from outright sin, iniquities and transgression, the scriptures is not dogmatic: as humans, what we have done is simply embellishing the words with our traditions.

Else, we'll be among those who say
1. If Jesus was the Messiah, He wouldn't interact with sinners

Mar 7:5-6:
"Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not your disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? He answered and said to them, Well has Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me."

God desires a people who will honour Him with their whole being and not religious observers

BlueAngel444:
Deborah wasn't Israel's leader they had Barak, she was a prophetess. And won't it be wise to say Barak was God's general and it's God who instructed him to go to war

MuttleyLaff:
"⁴ Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time.
⁵ She used to sit under the palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the people of Israel came up to her for judgment.
⁶ She sent and summoned Barak the son of Abinoam from Kedesh-naphtali and said to him,
“Has not the Lord, the God of Israel, commanded you,
‘Go, gather your men at Mount Tabor, taking 10,000 from the people of Naphtali and the people of Zebulun. "
- Judges 4:4-6

BlueAngel444, fyi, whether you like it or not, at that time Deborah was the female prophet of God and Israel's spiritual leader, while Barak was the military leader. Similar way Samuel was Israel was the prophet of God and spiritual leader, while king Saul and king David respecively were military leaders/monarchs.

It would have been unwise of Barak if he had not respected, accepted and appreciated Deborah's authority and think highly of her.
Deborah is not the only woman prophet in the Old Testament who authoritatively exercised their spiritual gift and of whom men didnt complain about it. As seen Judges 4:4-6 above, Barak, the general in the Israelite army, respected Deborahunquestionably , and followed her orders. Deborah didnt abuse her position/office and so Israel prospered under her leadership.

[quote author=BlueAngel444 post=86002389]Huldah and Rebecca only spoke what God told them, they weren't taking anyone's authority infact Deborah HELPED Barak
Huldah HELPED the king
Rebecca HELPED Jacob

"…²¹Later, Isaac prayed to the LORD on behalf of his wife, because she was barren. And the LORD heard his prayer, and his wife Rebekah conceived.
²²But the children inside her struggled with each other, and she said, “Why is this happening to me?” So Rebekah went to inquire of the LORD,
²³and He declared to her: “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other, and the older will serve the younger.”…"
- Genesis 25:21-23

You actually ,with unwisely picking Rebecca, are making a case for me, on how women are and can be more and highly regarded than men are, lol.

Rebecca might have HELPED Jacob, but she lied and deceived her husband and so in this respect isnt a good role model. Her saving grace, is that it was her and not her husband Isaac, that God revealed the prophecy about "the older shall serve the younger" to. Isaac didnt have a clue, all that mattered to him, was to satisfy his taste buds and "wacky must die" stomach/belly, lol. Of course, Rebecca should have told and/or intimated Isaac about the prophecy she was given when she had direct access to God and God spoke to her, instead of all that elaborate calculating, scheming and cunning methods she employed

BlueAngel444:
Infact just like Deborah this women played only one role and it all involved the lives of men who we're leaders and not the women themselves.

1/ Who did the Israelites daily come to for judgement between Deborah and Barak?
2/ Who between Deborah and Barak was the spiritual leader?

BlueAngel444:
If you can mention one woman that God called like he did the men, e.g as God not called you and anointed you for this assignment, to led his people or to speak and instruct his people.
NOT ONE WOMEN, will you ever read that God called this way not one

I have already given you at least two names and thats namely, in the person of Deborah and Huldah

BlueAngel444:
When Angels visit this women Sarah, Samson's mother, Mary it was to give birth and raise a man that will be anointed and serve God.

This women knew and understood their roles as mothers.

I am glad you mentioned angels physically visiting some women and especially your mentioning of Mary, when she was being told she has be chosen to carry God in her womb. Have you noticed that Joseph wasnt physically approached by God or any angel like Mary was, but that he only had the privilege of an angel appearing to him in a dream, and telling him to trust Mary, hmm?

BlueAngel444:
Slander God, Jesus said there is no sex in heaven

We are not talking of "Jesus said there is no sex in heaven" but about you slandering God, by saying "Maybe God is sexist as well abi" You must be proud of yourself for harbouring in you, that thought, about God

BlueAngel444:
Yes we are all a royal priesthood, you would have also quoted Revelations you o Lord have made us unto you kings and priests ba...

MuttleyLaff:
"But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people. You are royal priests, a holy nation, God’s very own possession. As a result, you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light."
- 1 Peter 2:9

"He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father. All glory and power to him forever and ever! Amen."
- Revelation 1:6

Every individual believer, regardless of gender/sex, has direct access to God and that without needing any ecclesiastical third party

You see how insincere, dishonest and untruthful you are because as you can see from the above quote, I did mention and quote Revelation 1:6

Fyi and/or using your preferred "you o Lord have made us unto you kings and priests ba" translation, the kings and priests denotes duality roles, as demonstrated by Melchizedek, who was a king and priest and so our women, are archetypes of the Queen of Sheba, monarchs in their own rights and having direct access to the throne of heaven and/or God. This is how we now have a royal priesthood. Capisce, lol, hmm?

BlueAngel444:
Now back to what I wrote God never said that a woman will be a priest. Infact the OT statements about priests, their marriage picking them etc very similar to Paul's writing of picking pastors.

BlueAngel444, why dont you, step back, take a good and deep breath, before attempting to answer this coming next question eh.
1/ Are there female shepherds in the bible or not, lol?
2/ You like talking of shadows, right, abi? What shadow then is the mentioning of Rachel (i.e. Jacob's first choice but ended being second wife) as a shepherdess and working in male-dominated institution, be a sign of and/or indicating, lol, hmm?
3/ If you really believe in "the OT is a shadow for the NT and a pattern of heaven," then show where there is gender in heaven, lol

BlueAngel444:
First off, direct access to God? Seriously, did you skip Lord Jesus oh what anyway try and study what it means to be a priest or pastor, if you understand that the OT is a shadow for the NT and a pattern of heaven.

Please just stop all this trying to make fetch happen. You have just read above how God overstepped Isaac and talked directly to Rebecca

BlueAngel444:
Anyway lemme skip somethings, priests also taught and read the law for the people to hear. They also blessed the people, like a father would

"²²So Hilkiah and those the king had designated went and spoke to Huldahd the prophetess, the wife of Shallum son of Tokhath,e the son of Hasrah, the keeper of the wardrobe. She lived in Jerusalem, in the Second District.
²³And Huldah said to them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Tell the man who sent you
²⁴that this is what the LORD says: I am about to bring calamity on this place and on its people, according to all the curses written in the book that has been read in the presence of the king of Judah,
²⁵because they have forsaken Me and burned incense to other gods, that they might provoke Me to anger with all the works of their hands. My wrath will be poured out upon this place and will not be quenched.’
²⁶But as for the king of Judah who sent you to inquire of the LORD, tell him that this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘As for the words that you heard,
²⁷because your heart was tender and you humbled yourself before God when you heard His words against this place and against its people, and because you have humbled yourself before Me and you have torn your clothes and wept before Me, I have heard you,’ declares the LORD.
²⁸‘Now I will indeed gather you to your fathers, and you will be gathered to your grave in peace. Your eyes will not see all the calamity that I will bring on this place and on its inhabitants.’”
So they brought her answer back to the king."
- 2 Chronicles 34:22-28

"¹¹When the king heard the words of the Book of the Law, he tore his clothes
¹²and commanded Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam son of Shaphan, Achbor son of Micaiah, Shaphan the scribe, and Asaiah the servant of the king:
¹³“Go and inquire of the LORD for me, for the people, and for all Judah concerning the words in this book that has been found. For great is the wrath of the LORD that burns against us because our fathers have not obeyed the words of this book by doing all that is written about us"
- 2 Kings 22:11-13

Please dont skip somethings anything. Do you at all, really know who Shaphan and Hilkiah were, erhn?

Do you know who those two highly esteemed people are, who on the command of young king Josiah, approached Huldah for guidance and interpretation of the book of the law found in the house of the LORD, hmm?

solite3:
the issue is not about gifts but about female leadership in the church, not everyone with a spiritual gift is qualified to be a pastor. Paul stated the requirement to be a pastor. A female may have the gift of teaching or a prophetic gift, It doesnt make them to be pastors.
paul was not speaking in proverb.

1 Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
I have explained this verse before, paul did not say a woman would be saved by childbearing but in childbearing, he did not say that it is child bearing that saves a woman but rather in child bearing process she would be saved. To be saved means to be delivered,
One could be saved from anything, one could be saved from sickness, death, attacks and so on. Because you see what paul said as parable that is why you can not understand it. The key to understand what the woman is saved from is in the book of Genesis.
God pronounces birth pain upon the woman and the fact that the woman's desire will always be to her husband. This only applies to a married woman because only a married woman has a husband. It means a woman could find comfort and succour in her child after she has pass through the pain of child birth. She would be satisfied after she has seen her fruit which is the child.

MuttleyLaff:
You see, this is where and how someone like you shamelessly comes online to publicly show and display their ignorance, inadequacies, lack of lacked depth & aplomb..

If I should get hold on you in a corner to get you do an exegesis on Genesis 3:16, mind you exegesis and not eisegesis, you will crumble like a pack of stacked up cards.

What 1 Timothy 2:12 is all about is an infant and growing congregation, For this reason Apostle Paul, said for now he wouldnt permit women to teach, besides, everyone knows the cultural setting of Ephesus, how women take lead and prominent roles in their occultic sessions etcetra. Anyway, the beginning of the letter, started with teachingand/or preventing any introducing of false teaching etcetera, then it went on that basis of about now not permitting women to teach men, then it continued with women should not have authority over man by dominating them, mastering them usurping them, emasculate them by depriving them of their male role or identity. That's what its all about nah. There is a local parlance that says, even when its raining or we are crying, we still are able to see the road walked on now. Wetin nah

At the above underlined emboldened, as if I knew.

Just like I thought that you havent the foggiest clue, lol, look at you up there, turning Genesis 3:16 on its head, lol. Smh, bwoy, it goes deeper than that your ignorant "Till date I never see woman dey laugh as she dey born" remark.

BlueAngel444 and solite3, I am 10000% sure that you think and believe that the word "pain" in that Genesis 3:16 means physical child birthing pains, lol. Smh. If you know, you know. Who no know, no go know, lol. Bwahahaha ha.

Fyi solite3, the greek word used in Genesis 3:16, is talking of mental pain as opposed to physical pain. It is talking of a feeling of deep distress caused by loss, disappointment, or other misfortune suffered by oneself or others and the feeling of greatly missing something good that one previously had.

It is referring to greatly yearning for that one something(s), one had before. That pain mentioned in Genesis 3:16, is in fact, referring to the hurting of mind, referring to the heavy toil on the heart/mind and this is why Eve upon giving birth to Cain, thought, relief, that she now has a man from God, as that's literally what Cain means. She thought Cain was the man and so when Abel was born she saw him as less important and not special, that she flimsly named him Abel.

Eve so much believed in Cain, the promise and prophecy in Genesis 3:15 so much so, that upon Abel's birth, she discounted Abel off and regarded him as being unworthy of consideration to the extent he was named Abel, the meaning indicates that he is moisture, breath, vapor, something shortlived, meaning he is shortlived, he is something that is here today and gone tomorrow.

True to Eve's words and the power of her tongue, Abel truly was here today and gone tomorrow, as his mother's favourite, his brother Cain, killed him by beating him repeatedly with a bludgeon to death, smh.

Finallydead:
Solite, The more you keep trying to answer me, the more you'll keep shifting goalposts. From saying the woman is saved from controlling tendency to now saying she is saved from her desire for her husband. So you still didnt answer in light of the unsaved who give birth or the barren/celibate sisters. Also about how Paul delegates prayer to the Spiritual man and apparel to the spiritual woman. All these would have helped you see your fumbling. See how your answer also directly contradicts BlueAngel444. BlueAngel says it's divine birth, which is even closer, than yours.
Let me help you both see something back in the story of Eve.
The salvation through childbirth that Eve was promised was that her seed would conquer the serpents seed. Take note that no woman on earth has ever or will ever have seed. Only a man has seed. This is also why BlueAngel444 got it wrong. The Lord Jesus can't be the seed because He was never the seed of a woman but the seed of God in the woman. However, his birth was the only birth that would lead to the reality of this expected seed. Satan's seed is inside all mankind too, male and female and there is no woman who ever gave birth or ever will to a conqueror of Satan's seed which is in all humanity.
Again notice that Paul did not put the salvation of Eve in the past birth of Jesus Christ or any previous childbirth even in the church age. He puts it in the future as a future event.
Again notice, the woman's salvation would be initiated ONLY IF she continues to wear the modest apparel he had suggested...sobriety (seriousness) as well as the garments of love, Faith and holiness. it's not just any pregnancy through a man that will do it.
Let me also give you more insight or it may add to the twist, depending. Back to Ps 68:11-12. Do you know that it was a woman again, who dwelt in the house that divided the spoil (which is an event that only takes place on the battlefield by those who fought the war). Those who know the mystery of manhood and womanhood will already see how all scripture fits seamlessly from this. But alas, Paul says it is a great mystery (Eph5:32) (something BlueAngel seems to at least be agreeing with Paul in, even in his error, calling it calculus, lol. If only he knew its deeper than that) and here you all are trying to handle something so deep without the help of the Spirit, no wonder all this mess you're making.
I'll leave it here for now and come back later to add. But chew on this in the mean time.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

You can accuse people like the devil but the deception and your errors are obvious.

Stop claiming strange spiritual mysteries when you don't even understand simple scripture.

You statements contradicts those of God in scripture and those who agree with him, if my error is in not agreeing with your nonsense that fine by me.

shadeyinka:
You're just bent on argument. Did you read my post where I said Deborah led and army? She may infact not have raised a sword BUT she acted as a positive moral force in the army

1. Deborah was a Judge:
Judg 4:5: "And she dwelled under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment."

2. Deborah went to war:
Judg 4:9: "And she said, I will surely go with you: notwithstanding the journey that you take shall not be for your honor; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh."

I have not said anything contrary to the bibles position.

So she was a motivator like wives who wake their husbands up in the morning, speak sweet words to them, praise them and encourage them before they leave.

Please is that in anyway leading her husband.


Have you not written that a woman can and should be a pastor. Or do you disagree with scripture?