bukatyne:


Can you share any moral code that encourages sex before marriage?

Morality is about doing good and evil, right and wrong.
There’s nothing inherently good or evil about sex.
It’s just like food. A Physiological need/want.

Hathor5:


But it's a Nigerian thing to justify it with 'she will suffer greater consequences' and get scot free.
Explains to some extent why this part of the world has highest rate of infections.

Oh dear, see I perfectly understand how the use of certain words and phrases like 'she will suffer greater consequences' can rub people the wrong way. Believe me, I do.

But it doesn't negate the truth.
We could all decide to be politically correct and just say 'both father and mother have equal consequences' but this would be a lie. Even in societies where child support is mandatory, the woman is still the one with the greatest consequence after getting pregnant. Her life is slowed down during her pregnancy, her body changes, her work was affected, etc.

After birthing, she's the one looking after the child. She's the one taking him to school, doing his homework, taking him to the doctor's appointment, she can't even hang out with her girls as often as she would want, she can't party as much, her work life is altered because she's a single mother.
Now guess what? Baby daddy whose only job is to send in checks is busy partying with his boys, probably still meeting and having sex with other women and living the life of a single man. Sending child support did not altered his lifestyle in any way so while you may assume he did not go scot free, the realistic fact is that he actually has because no law on earth can force him to be present in that child's life.

And this basically sums up the idea behind the thread.

I have typed too much

cococandy:
You’re trying to use analogies to drive a point home that I already stated to you that I got. Not necessary.

The only thing I wanted to verify is why it’s so controversial to include men in the topic of prevention.

Because men do not carry the risk women have.

And my people would say: Na the person wey get mata know how to solve am.

cococandy:


Morality is about doing good and evil, right and wrong.
There’s nothing inherently good or evil about sex.
It’s just like food. A Physiological need/want.

You have not answered my question to her:

Do you know any moral code that supports sex before marriage?

And I agree, there is nothing wrong about sex.

Like other things, it has its use: For pro-creation and intimacy in marriage.

pmoye:
Actually it was that other thread that you alluded to that made me start this. After reading that the lady had aborted severally for that irresponsible man (irresponsible even at 29) I kept wondering what she would have gained if any of the abortion had gone the wrong way. And to think that a woman would so submit her body to be toiled with at will to a man never ceases to surprise. I think we have established the fact that men having unprotected sex when we are not ready to be father is irresponsible and we have courts and social instruments to make the man own his responsibility in such a situation... Even then there are men who are unable to stand up to their bukata in such situation.

Take that other post for instance, getting pregnant for a man who cannot even fend for himself, the shame of a man who still lives on his father's hand-outs, must be a nasty experience for a mother-to-be.

But then all that will not remove the fact that the morbidity and mortality associated with getting pregnant (planned or not) belongs exclusively to a woman, and because of that alone the woman should have the final say when it comes to getting pregnant (planned or not).

Well, we can all be politically correct.

A lady in the fix has given an ultimatum because as push comes to shove, she realizes that she is the loser in that equation.

Unnerve:

Oh dear, see I perfectly understand how the use of certain words and phrases like 'she will suffer greater consequences' can rub people the wrong way. Believe me, I do.

But it doesn't negate the truth.
We could all decide to be politically correct and just say 'both father and mother have equal consequences' but this would be a lie. Even in societies where child support is mandatory, the woman is still the one with the greatest consequence after getting pregnant. Her life is slowed down during her pregnancy, her body changes, her work was affected, etc.

After birthing, she's the one looking after the child. She's the one taking him to school, doing his homework, taking him to the doctor's appointment, she can't even hang out with her girls as often as she would want, she can't party as much, her work life is altered because she's a single mother.
Now guess what? Baby daddy whose only job is to send in checks is busy partying with his boys, probably still meeting and having sex with other women and living the life of a single man. Sending child support did not altered his lifestyle in any way so while you may assume he did not go scot free, the realistic fact is that he actually has because no law on earth can force him to be present in that child's life.

And this basically sums up the idea behind the thread.

I have typed too much

I have said SEVERAL times on this thread that I acknowledge the fact that women "suffer greater consequences".

I even stated that women must take responsibility to protect themselves.

Greater consequences does not translate to no consequences for the other party involved though and does not mean that boys should not have any responsibility at all.

Why is something so simple so difficult to comprehend?

Hathor5:


Sassy, will you tell your sons to be irresponsible? Will you? Even if you guard your daughters more you don't want your sons to have bastards all over the place and you don't want them to get sick either. Do you?

I am a realist. So real babe. In as much as I will teach my sons to do the right thing, I will be more strict on my daughter's cos in Nigeria I know today, a girl with known std is bad market, a girl who people know did abortion is bad market. A babymama is bad market.
So I will do all I can to protect my girl from the toxic Nigerian society. The worst is after all the humiliation and taking care of this child, the man will now come and claim his child. This alone will make me train my daughter never to let her guard down when it comes to sex as far as Nigeria is concerned. It does not favour us at all.
Our society is not changing anytime soon. We will only look for ways to make things easier and better for us.

In my place, at least that child is yours( that's our culture)
But other places, after suffering, one man from nowhere will come and say sorry and thats that?

bukatyne:


This lady

If we are going moral and righteous, it is no sex before marriage which negates this thread.

You simply want to eat your cake and have it.

In the days of old, women were seen as unequal to men and perceived to be liable to deceit. As a result, they were protected by gunshot weddings.

No man got a virgin or decent girl pregnant and could deny it. All it takes is for a crying pregnant girl to finger you as the father of her unborn child and gbam! it is marriage (to save face for the girl and family and hold the guy responsible for enticing a girl). In this system, women did not enjoy the autonomy over their bodies they do today and it was seen as a crime for a woman to abort a baby without the father's consent.

Sexual liberation came and men are the same as women, women are wise enough not to be deceived, women can decide the number of partners they have, there is no shame in baby mamaism, abortion is pro-choice, it is our body to do as we want etc. And yet, you still want to enjoy the protection of old where women were seen as victims because they were not equal footing and consequently treated as such?

It doesn't work that way.

You wear the big girl pants now, take responsibility for pregnancy and STDs, let the guy take responsibility for STDs.

Come to think of it, a guy can not force you to keep a pregnancy you don't want so why do you want to force him to father a child he doesn't want?

Where is the equality in that?

Lol, there's something about you.

bukatyne:

Lol. The thing shock me my sister

Hathor5:

I have said SEVERAL times on this thread that I acknowledge the fact that women "suffer greater consequences".

I even stated that women must take responsibility to protect themselves.

Greater consequences does not translate to no consequences for the other party involved though and does not mean that boys should not have any responsibility at all.

Why is something so simple so difficult to comprehend?

It's aii, we cool

sassysure:

I am a realist. So real babe. In as much as I will teach my sons to do the right thing, I will be more strict on my daughter's cos in Nigeria I know today, a girl with known std is bad market, a girl who people know did abortion is bad market. A babymama is bad market.
So I will do all I can to protect my girl from the toxic Nigerian society. The worst is after all the humiliation and taking care of this child, the man will now come and claim his child. This alone will make me train my daughter never to let her guard down when it comes to sex as far as Nigeria is concerned. It does not favour us at all.
Our society is not changing anytime soon. We will only look for ways to make things easier and better for us.

In my place, at least that child is yours( that's our culture)
But other places, after suffering, one man from.nowhere will come and say sorry and thats that?

I agree.

Does it mean that your boys will be taught not to protect themselves?

I believe this is an open discussion regardless of what you had perceived the intention of the Op (me) to be. And there's nothing stopping you from including men in the topic of prevention. You should notice that I wrote that exclusively from the point of view of a lady (from another thread) so readily agreeing to abort (severally) for an irresponsible man who preferred to have unprotected sex with her.

That was my alarm. And yes, I have seen several such cases that had ended badly for the woman. I cannot begin to count how many women (married and single) that I had had this discussion with trying to educate them that their body belonged to them and not some irresponsible men whose only concern is having sex raw.

You would ask me why it wasn't men I was so educating. That's simply because once pregnancy happens you almost never find men accompanying their women in search of solution (whatever we might want to describe as solution). And yes, I had worked for years in this area in Nigeria. Kindly ask anyone in the health sector in Nigeria who deal with such cases and try asking them to include men in blame sharing and topic of prevention... You will immediately realize how impossible that is, because even in marriage too many men are so irresponsible that they refuse to accompany their women to antenatal care... That is the reality in a lot of cases in Nigeria. And apologies to men and women who have functional relationship where the man is on top of his game. This post is not about such exceptions.

So, yes, men should be included in the topic of prevention except that will still not change the fact that women should take ownership of their bodies.

cococandy:
You’re trying to use analogies to drive a point home that I already stated to you that I got. Not necessary.

The only thing I wanted to verify is why it’s so controversial to include men in the topic of prevention.

Unnerve:

It's aii, we cool

I am still not unnerved.

cococandy:


No it’s not. at least to my knowledge.

But Generally, a married woman who has an abortion by whatever route she’s able to get it often feels like less of a bad person than a single woman who did it. The fact that hospitals will do abortions for married ladies but not the single ones speaks volumes.

Yes some hospitals do this.

They do. Be it single or married. It's coded.
Also married women do abortion more in Nigeria.
Do you know that?
Ask any naija Dr around you who agree he does abortion cos most of them also pretend they don't do that.

Infact, in some private hospitals, if u agree to do abortion, u will be paid double the salary you receive.
Most females don't agree but men, u know how far

Abortion is the quickest and easiest way to make money in our private hospitals.

A very known secret. North has the highest abortion clinics.

Hathor5:


I agree.

Does it mean that your boys will be taught not to protect themselves?

I have answered that already na.
But let me say it again.
I will teach them, their dad will teach them but as for my daughter double,triple teaching
I don't want story at all.

At the end, it's all left to them but at least I did my best to educate them.
Maybe you live outside naija.
In this obodo naijiria, na sense o.

Spot on!

sassysure:

They do. Be it single or married. It's coded.
Also married women do abortion more in Nigeria.
Do you know that?
Ask any naija Dr around you who agree he does abortion cos most of them also pretend they don't do that.

Infact, in some private hospitals, if u agree to do abortion, u will be paid double the salary you receive.
Most females don't agree but men, u know how far

Abortion is the quickest and easiest way to make money in our private hospitals.

A very known secret. North has the highest abortion clinics.

pmoye:
Spot on!

Abeg, show me the link to that thread. Seems this is the continuation from it.

sassysure:

I have answered that already na.
But let me say it again.
I will teach them, their dad will teach them but as for my daughter double,triple teaching
I don't want story at all.

At the end, it's all left to them but at least I did my best to educate them.
Maybe you live outside naija.
In this obodo naijiria, na sense o.

sassysure:

I have answered that already na.
But let me say it again.
I will teach them, their dad will teach them but as for my daughter double,triple teaching
I don't want story at all.

At the end, it's all left to them but at least I did my best to educate them.
Maybe you live outside naija.
In this obodo naijiria, na sense o.

I understand the concern is greater for daughters for obvious reasons but if we only teach our daughters responsibility, we won't get far.

sassysure:

Abeg, show me the link to that thread. Seems this is the continuation from it.

I copied you with the link na.

bukatyne:


If a woman has autonomy over her body and decide to keep/abort a pregnancy, why are we dragging men into it? That negates the autonomy.

Yes indeed she has autonomy over her body. Up until the pregnancy is viable, she can decide how she wants to handle the situation. Once the child is on earth and is a living breathing human, it’s not her sole decision anymore. And that human being that the child has become after its arrival on earth will always be linked to him hence he dragged himself into it by dipping raw in the first place. She’s not dragging him into it. He did.

2. You are still dancing around. Whether we like it or not, the woman naturally bears the brunt of sexual encounters gone awry pregnancy wise. If you are going to hold the guy for not preventing pregnancy, what happens if the guy says he wants a baby and the lady says no?

@bold, another repetition of something I already agreed with. How am I dancing around if I already stated I recognize this yet you you’re using it as countering point to me?

If the man wants a baby and the woman says no, he should let her be and find someone who wants a baby. If he doesn’t want a baby, he should use protection.
She should use protection if she doesn’t want a baby. If she wants a baby, ideally she should do it with someone who wants a baby like her too.

3. As a Christian, sex outside of marriage is a sin. So I don't understand what sexual liberation means except you are saying 'a husband/wife have the liberty to hang themselves from the chandeliers in their sitting room.'

You said and I paraphrase “sexual liberation came and men and women became equal”. Why say it if you don’t understand it? I was only quoting your post at that time.

bukatyne:


Because men do not carry the risk women have.

And my people would say: Na the person wey get mata know how to solve am.

It’s okay to have the opinion that men should not be sexually responsible about pregnancy prevention. But you have to own it and stand by it. You can’t say I’m dancing around yet you are not making a definitive stance on the issue. It won’t make the men who have been careful all along start going out to have reckless random sex. But your opinion has to be clear.

The fact woman have more to put up with if a pregnancy occurs doesn’t mean that teaching men to help in prevention should be controversial.

As far as I’m concerned there was no argument to be had here. Except that the thread in a few posts started showing what it was born to do. Shame women

Yes. And they also don’t want to loose their licenses or pay huge fines

sassysure:

They do. Be it single or married. It's coded.
Also married women do abortion more in Nigeria.
Do you know that?
Ask any naija Dr around you who agree he does abortion cos most of them also pretend they don't do that.

Infact, in some private hospitals, if u agree to do abortion, u will be paid double the salary you receive.
Most females don't agree but men, u know how far

Abortion is the quickest and easiest way to make money in our private hospitals.

A very known secret. North has the highest abortion clinics.

Hathor5:


I understand the concern is greater for daughters for obvious reasons but if we only teach our daughters responsibility, we won't get far.

And with this, the thread can be closed.

Dunno what any further debate should be about.

Except to say “don’t teach boys” .

Hathor5:


I understand the concern is greater for daughters for obvious reasons but if we only teach our daughters responsibility, we won't get far.

But I never said we will only teach our daughter
We will teach all of them BUT more puking the ear for our daughters.

Our society is shit. A guy on the first page here said a babe almost died when they did concoction abortion and ended up taking her to hospital. Now he is married to another babe. Why didn't he marry her?

That guy who gave you belle, and u did abortion with his knowledge will not marry you.
Babes don't let guys know they did it, else, end of love.
If a guy will not marry you after making you do it, then why will you allow yourself get pregnant in the first place.
Love is never blind o.
Shine your eye.
Unless u believe in juju

Here

mrfranky:
Please Mods help push this to front page i need more advise please...

Have been caught up in a difficult situation. I have been dating this my lovely girlfriend for more than a year now. She is beautiful, humble, kind and a good girl. She is from a good family too. The parents are not too rich just average and doing very well. They are 2 girls and 3 boys and the elder sis is more of a slay queen i.e so beautiful and refuses to marry so the mother is hoping on this my girl to settle down, always encouraging her to settle down.

Now I am 29 years and I really love this girl and she loves me more than i actually love her, always ready to do my biding. She is just 22 and I wish to marry her someday but my finances are low. I have met the father and he said he doesn't need anything from me only things for the kinsmen or whatever but my parents are the opposite. Infact my dad won't even entertain my thought of getting married now because despite am staying alone, i still get small stipends from him monthly so he knows am not financially independent.

To cut the long story short.. My girl is pregnant again after several abortions in the past and she is refusing to take pills. She wants to keep this one and is urging me to come pay her bride price so we can move in together. This was not my dream way of getting married. I don't have a problem with her keeping the child but I just cannot marry now with my monthly salary of 40k which am struggling to feed and pay bills.

Please I need advice.
Pls no insult I knw the abortion act is wrong n never intended for her to take in again but it keeps happening...

Help me please i dont want to lose this lovely princess because she promise to end the relationship if she has to take another pill.
https://www.nairaland.com/5932549/girlfriend-threatened-break-up-dont

sassysure:

Abeg, show me the link to that thread. Seems this is the continuation from it.

bukatyne:


I copied you with the link na.

Seems i didnt see it.
Can u copy it again pls?
Thanks

Don't worry, I've seen it

sassysure:

They do. Be it single or married. It's coded.
Also married women do abortion more in Nigeria.
Do you know that?
Ask any naija Dr around you who agree he does abortion cos most of them also pretend they don't do that.

Infact, in some private hospitals, if u agree to do abortion, u will be paid double the salary you receive.
Most females don't agree but men, u know how far

Abortion is the quickest and easiest way to make money in our private hospitals.

A very known secret. North has the highest abortion clinics.

If this is the case then why is no one really investigating on the cause and get to the Root of this. You know I so find Most Nigerians very shallow and hypocritical. If married woman engage in abortion more then how such women can condemn same act in others beats my imagination. Selective morality at work again isn't it?. Are they not endangering their lives too? Aren't they commiting murder too? Aren't they supposed to take responsibility of their sexual lives, calculate their flows, "get educated about their system" to avoid pregnancy like I'm read some ladies instruct on this thread. Lol But then Na single ladies enter trouble for 9ja.

That's not even where I'm going, My issue is why aren't women seeing the need to involve men in birth control. Why do they exclude men or Male child from sex education and taking responsibility? Why are Men not taught how to keep their bodies too?
Now this isn't feminism or equality reasoning it's just how any sane individual will reason. So far with all the morals and fear we all try to instill in the female child look at where it got us. When a society makes a specific gender the moral keeper and allow the other to live freely, then it is only a matter of time before morality is destroyed. It is either the free one corrupt the morally trained one or the latter lose strength or willingness to keep up. We create a fence and also create erosion in the same society and we expect flood free environment. We be jokers ! Bunch of jokers! .

Men should be held responsible for pregnancy just as women. It takes two to tangle, ovary and sperm to form embryo. You can't blame just one gender because she's the carrier. Then sex education and abstainance should be inculcated in both genders.

sassysure:

But I never said we will only teach our daughter
We will teach all of them BUT more puking the ear for our daughters.

Our society is shit. A guy on the first page here said a babe almost died when they did concoction abortion and ended up taking her to hospital. Now he is married to another babe. Why didn't he marry her?

That guy who gave you belle, and u did abortion with his knowledge will not marry you.
Babes don't let guys know they did it, else, end of love.
If a guy will not marry you after making you do it, then why will you allow yourself get pregnant in the first place.
Love is never blind o.
Shine your eye.
Unless u believe in juju

The society is shit because of attitudes such as this ...

sassysure:

If I get pregnant today. It's my fault totally. Don't ever blame any man.

Unless the man raped you, u are 100% responsible for yourself. In fact 200%.

It takes two people, a man and a woman, to have a pregnancy.

bukatyne:


You have not answered my question to her:

Do you know any moral code that supports sex before marriage?

And I agree, there is nothing wrong about sex.

Like other things, it has its use: For pro-creation and intimacy in marriage.

My answer implies that there’s no moral code which includes sex before or after anything.

The Sex act itself has nothing to do with morality (the concept of good versus bad, light versus darkness, etc.)

Hence if we are having various categories of morality and different types of moral codes, sex won’t necessarily be included in any of them. Whether before or after marriage.

If we are talking about hurting your loved one by sneaking behind their back, then it’s a different issue .

sassysure:

Our society is not changing anytime soon. We will only look for ways to make things easier and better for us.

In my place, at least that child is yours( that's our culture)
But other places, after suffering, one man from nowhere will come and say sorry and thats that?

How will it change when people are stick in the mud? When we retain the status quo nothing changes.

Culture is the collective thinking, norms of its people. What changes a thinking and creating a new normal? Upbringing.

You ensure the society remains harsh for your daughter by repeating the same mistakes our forebears did.

It isn’t rigid it can be dynamic towards a positive trend.

You’re making the argument of people who say Nigerian Mothers are responsible for the misogyny in the Nigerian culture.

Hathor5:


I am still not unnerved.

Have a drink, eat some veggies, perhaps have some orgasmic sex, then sleep in cool temperature. Immediately you wake up, do nothing else but read only your comments on the thread.

Ariza:
If this is the case then why is no one really investigating on the cause and get to the Root of this. You know I so find Most Nigerians very shallow and hypocritical. If married woman engage in abortion more then how such women can condemn same act in others beats my imagination. Selective morality at work again isn't it?. Are they not endangering their lives too? Aren't they commiting murder too? Aren't they supposed to take responsibility of their sexual lives, calculate their flows, "get educated about their system" to avoid pregnancy like I'm read some ladies instruct on this thread. Lol But then Na single ladies enter trouble for 9ja.

That's not even where I'm going, My issue is why aren't women seeing the need to involve men in birth control. Why do they exclude men or Male child from sex education and taking responsibility? Why are Men not taught how to keep their bodies too?


Now this isn't feminism or equality reasoning it's just how any sane individual will reason

So far with all the morals and fear we all try to instill in the female child look at where it got us. When a society makes a specific gender the moral keeper and allow the other to live freely, then it is only a matter of time before morality is destroyed. It is either the free one corrupt the morally trained one or the latter lose strength or willingness to keep up. We create a fence and also create erosion in the same society and we expect flood free environment. We be jokers ! Bunch of jokers! .

Men should be held responsible for pregnancy just as women. It takes two to tangle, ovary and sperm to for embryo. You can't blame just one gender because she's the carrier. Then sex education and abstainance should be inculcated in both genders.

Feminism/equality reasoning is the only way sane folks reason