I came across a thread that talked about self taught developers claiming to know it all instead of getting a degree.... And obviously those with CS degrees came out to defend themselves claiming that coding is just a tiny spec of computing...
From what i know comparing programmers to CS degree holders is like comparing poly to uni.... The two are not the same.... But back to the subject matter.... I can gladly say... Quote me anywhere..."CS degree holders don't know anything... And developers are delusional".
I will explain... I moved from a self taught software developer to cybersecurity... And i will trully say its not the same... There are somethings a CS degree will give you that you can't find being self taught but also when it comes to practical work computer scientist are a waste of time.... They can tell you what to do... How it should be done but doing it??... And personally i believe its doing it that makes all the difference not the knowledge.... Such knowledge is wasted without proper application... Each have their strengths but can't be compared directly to each other... Now computer programming is a whole course on its own..

Huh

@thariodamaniac
Here are my questions:

1. How many computation do we do in Nigeria?

2. By Judging a computing Scientist by mere programming is it a wise judgement ?

3. Can we Objectively compare a computing scientist to a programmer?

4. Is the field of programming constrain to computing science? If yes why so? If No then why not compare a programmer to a physicist, chemist, mathematician? Why just computing scientist?

stanliwise:
@thariodamaniac
Here are my questions:

1. How many computation do we do in Nigeria?

2. By Judging a computing Scientist by mere programming is it a wise judgement ?

3. Can we Objectively compare a computing scientist to a programmer?

4. Is the field of programming constrain to computing science? If yes why so? If No then why not compare a programmer to a physicist, chemist, mathematician? Why just computing scientist?

Computer science may not be all about programming in thesame way Medicine is not all about surgery, but we cannot deny that software development is a major part of computer science, and coding as well as programming is the driving force of most software applications.

Those who go for a computer science degree, study almost everything and they are mostly theoretical. At the end, they end up not being able to apply these things in the real world.

The education system in most part of the world is shitty in my opinion. The Curriculum could be tailored in such a way that the last year of the computer science course allows for only specializations and practice ie a frontend developer focuses on frontend end practice, and so on.

stanliwise:
@thariodamaniac
Here are my questions:

1. How many computation do we do in Nigeria?

2. By Judging a computing Scientist by mere programming is it a wise judgement ?

3. Can we Objectively compare a computing scientist to a programmer?

4. Is the field of programming constrain to computing science? If yes why so? If No then why not compare a programmer to a physicist, chemist, mathematician? Why just computing scientist?

1)the amount of computation done in nigeria is low compare to outside...
2) depending on how you judge them... Then Yes... If you judge based on knowledge then it would be silly but if its based on application then its more logical since every knowledge can be applied..
3) obviously comparing them may not be optimum but its the best we can do in regards to this field....
4)yes, its constrained to the field... Its all under computing and informational systems(CIS)... Things have changed a lot in the past few years... Programming has become its own course like data science, cybersecurity etc.. Each can stand alone but they still pick pieces from each other...

Daejoyoung:

Computer science may not be all about programming in thesame way Medicine is not all about surgery, but we cannot deny that software development is a major part of computer science, and coding as well as programming is the driving force of most software applications.

Those who go for a computer science degree, study almost everything and they are mostly theoretical. At the end, they end up not being able to apply these things in the real world.

The education system in most part of the world is shitty in my opinion. The Curriculum could be tailored in such a way that the last year of the computer science course allows for only specializations and practice ie a frontend developer focuses on frontend end practice, and so on.

The curriculum is not shitty. Nigeria economy is shitty. Half of what is in our curriculum has no platform where they can be executed.

thariodamaniac:
I came across a thread that talked about self taught developers claiming to know it all instead of getting a degree.... And obviously those with CS degrees came out to defend themselves claiming that coding is just a tiny spec of computing...
From what i know comparing programmers to CS degree holders is like comparing poly to uni.... The two are not the same.... But back to the subject matter.... I can gladly say... Quote me anywhere..."CS degree holders don't know anything... And developers are delusional".
I will explain... I moved from a self taught software developer to cybersecurity... And i will trully say its not the same... There are somethings a CS degree will give you that you can't find being self taught but also when it comes to practical work computer scientist are a waste of time.... They can tell you what to do... How it should be done but doing it??... And personally i believe its doing it that makes all the difference not the knowledge.... Such knowledge is wasted without proper application... Each have their strengths but can't be compared directly to each other... Now computer programming is a whole course on its own..

my lecturer will be telling me school won't teach u everything. No wonder mark left

Coder2Client:
Huh

Coder2client u again

peterangelo:
Coder2client u again

Wetin i do na

Coder2Client:

Wetin i do na

just saying hi na

peterangelo:
my lecturer will be telling me school won't teach u everything. No wonder mark left

lol... Yes but he returned sha.... After making millions

thariodamaniac:
lol... Yes but he returned sha.... After making millions

yeah

This life no balance

peterangelo:
just saying hi na

Thank you. Hope those bugs aren't too shitty to Debug?

CS grads who put in effort towards improving stand out. Just like any other field of study if you don't follow up what your studied by professional or capacity-building practices, you have no advantage and that's what OP is capitalizing on to raise some dust.

Coder2Client:

Thank you. Hope those bugs aren't too shitty to Debug?

Yeah not shitty atall brother

you don't expect a fresh CS grad to be highly proficient in programming , proficiency takes time to develop . you don't expect a fresh CS graduate who only did webdevelopment for a semester to be better than someone who has spent three years focusing only on web development and has acquired the skills and theoretical computer science knowledge relevant to webdevelopment
Most schools don't teach the students new technologies which might change they teach fundamental computing concepts which are less likely to change

thariodamaniac:

1)the amount of computation done in nigeria is low compare to outside...
2) depending on how you judge them... Then Yes... If you judge based on knowledge then it would be silly but if its based on application then its more logical since every knowledge can be applied..
3) obviously comparing them may not be optimum but its the best we can do in regards to this field....
4)yes, its constrained to the field... Its all under computing and informational systems(CIS)... Things have changed a lot in the past few years... Programming has become its own course like data science, cybersecurity etc.. Each can stand alone but they still pick pieces from each other...

data science and cyber security are not and was never under programming and it is almost untruth that programming is a course on it own. Please check your fact.
Data science is business + AI
Cyber security is a core part of Security in computing science.

Comparing a computing scientist to a mere programmer is like comparing a house cat to a wild cat. Though they have similarities yet they have wide differences.

I am not saying a computing scientist is better than a programmer but their responsibility are very far. Constraining a computing science to programming is a waste of human resource.

A time would come everyone would be able to code and even then computer can code. But yet not everyone would be a computing scientist.

This your answer would fail woefully if Nigeria were known in developing software and advance tech. But since we only do small computation, any programmer can rub shoulder with a computing scientist. Also what made matter worse is that many CSC student are misinformed about what CSC is still about. I blame this on lack of orientation from schools.

ARCHEMEDESME:
you don't expect a fresh CS grad to be highly proficient in programming , proficiency takes time to develop . you don't expect a fresh CS graduate who only did webdevelopment for a semester to be better than someone who has spent three years focusing only on web development and has acquired the skills and theoretical computer science knowledge relevant to webdevelopment
Most schools don't teach the students new technologies which might change they teach fundamental computing concepts which are less likely to change

computer curriculum in school is fit and the language been taught are good no matter how old they are. The problem of Nigeria is lack of good infrastructure in school and lack of platform for young CS graduate to gain experience early even before going to school to study.

stanliwise:
data science and cyber security are not and was never under programming and it is almost untruth that programming is a course on it own. Please check your fact.
Data science is business + AI
Cyber security is a core part of Security in computing science.

Comparing a computing scientist to a mere programmer is like comparing a house cat to a wild cat. Though they have similarities yet they have wide differences.

I am not saying a computing scientist is better than a programmer but their responsibility are very far. Constraining a computing science to programming is a waste of human resource.

A time would come everyone would be able to code and even then computer can code. But yet not everyone would be a computing scientist.

This your answer would fail woefully if Nigeria were known in developing software and advance tech. But since we only do small computation, any programmer can rub shoulder with a computing scientist. Also what made matter worse is that many CSC student are misinformed about what CSC is still about. I blame this on lack of orientation from schools.

did i ever say data science and cybersecurity is under programming... I said programming has become a course of study on its own... And data science is a course not just business + ai pls... There are companies that collect, analyse and visualise data for a business... That is using data science concepts not data science itself which is a course of study in universities abroad.... I never said programming is a degree... I said its a course on its own with certification and it's taught in universities too..

stanliwise:


Comparing a computing scientist to a mere programmer is like comparing a house cat to a wild cat. Though they have similarities yet they have wide differences.

Sorry, I don't know what you guys were discussing, I just saw this post under "recent posts" and I felt I should correct this. There's nothing like a "mere programmer" unless there is a particular type of programming you are referring to. Your analogy about cats is wrong. Programming is the crux of everything computing.

Regardless of the field of IT, provided a software or firmware is used, a programmer was involved. Cybersecurity makes use of rules, principles, firmware and software written by a programmer somewhere. Machine learning is about weights, activation functions and the subsequent regressions calculus; all these remain mathematics until a programmer codes them. Same with data science. So when you think of a programmer, don't just think of web developers alone. I personally have not developed anything web or mobile for more than 6 years now and I'm still a programmer. The average salary of certain types of programmers here in North America is higher than that of the cyber security expert. You can check that on any popular jobboard like Neuvoo, Glassdoor or Indeed (note: to get the best result, be specific with the type of programmer).

Thanks for reading. Bye!

etrange:


Sorry, I don't know what you guys were discussing, I just saw this post under "recent posts" and I felt I should correct this. There's nothing like a "mere programmer" unless there is a particular type of programming you are referring to. Your analogy about cats is wrong. Programming is the crux of everything computing.

Regardless of the field of IT, provided a software or firmware is used, a programmer was involved. Cybersecurity makes use of rules, principles, firmware and software written by a programmer somewhere. Machine learning is about weights, activation functions and the subsequent regressions calculus; all these remain mathematics until a programmer codes them. Same with data science. So when you think of a programmer, don't just think of web developers alone. I personally have not developed anything web or mobile for more than 6 years now and I'm still a programmer. The average salary of certain types of programmers here in North America is higher than that of the cyber security expert. You can check that on any popular jobboard like Neuvoo, Glassdoor or Indeed (note: to get the best result, be specific with the type of programmer).

Thanks for reading. Bye!

Your analogy about cats is wrong. Programming is the crux of everything computing.

How can you say this? How can the crux of computing science hover around programming, na wa o. Please I need you to go understand who a computing scientist is. You don’t really know I guess. Such a wrong guess

thariodamaniac:
did i ever say data science and cybersecurity is under programming... I said programming has become a course of study on its own... And data science is a course not just business + ai pls... There are companies that collect, analyse and visualise data for a business... That is using data science concepts not data science itself which is a course of study in universities abroad.... I never said programming is a degree... I said its a course on its own with certification and it's taught in universities too..

Data science is not just about business but that is the bulk of it. Analytic prediction and finding patterns in large data using AI is what data science is all about. So only a few cases is data science not used for business. I took a course of data science.

stanliwise:
Data science is not just about business but that is the bulk of it. Analytic prediction and finding patterns in large data using AI is what data science is all about. So only a few cases is data science not used for business. I took a course of data science.

we are both saying the same thing

ARCHEMEDESME:
you don't expect a fresh CS grad to be highly proficient in programming , proficiency takes time to develop . you don't expect a fresh CS graduate who only did webdevelopment for a semester to be better than someone who has spent three years focusing only on web development and has acquired the skills and theoretical computer science knowledge relevant to webdevelopment
Most schools don't teach the students new technologies which might change they teach fundamental computing concepts which are less likely to change

i still try hard to believe that web development is programming... Its so basic compared to other parts... Like you said it takes proficiency but what good are unapplied fundamentals?

stanliwise:

Your analogy about cats is wrong. Programming is the crux of everything computing.

How can you say this? How can the crux of computing science hover around programming, na wa o. Please I need you to go understand who a computing scientist is. You don’t really know I guess. Such a wrong guess

you don't get what he said.... In simple terms you can say programming is the assemblying of a car... The engine is a big part but isn't just the car... So you take different parts and fix together and you get a car.... Just like programming of what use is firmware creation, AI, networking, data, maths and stats etc if it can't be put together to make it useful... And only a good programmer can be able to do that...

thariodamaniac:
you don't get what he said.... In simple terms you can say programming is the assemblying of a car... The engine is a big part but isn't just the car... So you take different parts and fix together and you get a car.... Just like programming of what use is firmware creation, AI, networking, data, maths and stats etc if it can't be put together to make it useful... And only a good programmer can be able to do that...

programming is a big tool I agree but it is not the engine of computing science. Computing science started far before programming.

thariodamaniac:
i still try hard to believe that web development is programming... Its so basic compared to other parts... Like you said it takes proficiency but what good are unapplied fundamentals?

And Google, Facebook is basic abi?
Instead of you to say the one you are coding is basic

stanliwise:
And Google, Facebook is basic abi?
Instead of you to say the one you are coding is basic

facebook was basic at the start... Don't deceive urself.... Facebook is more than just a website now and so is google the amount of background work on the systems are over basic web development works... Api's for different functions...facebook at one time built its own language or framework(i have forgotten which) facebook uses machine learning on its site.... Which web development framework does that.... Dont even call python or vue.js because no one that is looking for a web developer will be checking for data science skills.... Do due diligence before you ask questions out of emotions

stanliwise:
programming is a big tool I agree but it is not the engine of computing science. Computing science started far before programming.

check the evolution of computer science one thing is common the compilation of knowledge and application.... Application in which form?? Programming is the car itself not the engine

Referring to the topic op started. Let's look at the facts. We can talk all day about theory but the only truth will be in the facts, what we can all see.

If you say computer science graduates can't do nothing (which is what is in your post header), by nothing you mean what exactly? Cause as far as I know, most of the software products you put your hands on is made by these same people you're saying can't do nothing. If you put Nigeria into perspective, then your points might be valid. Buh in other parts of the world, they are CS graduates that know EXACTLY what they're doing. Let's take Google and Apple for example. Most of the employees working on their software products are computer science graduates. So really, your points about CS graduates not being able to do sh!t is only valid here in Nigeria. Goan look at people working on the Android platform. If you check the source code, you'll find data structures and algorithms that if you dinor go to a computer science school, it will look like rubbish to you ni. Those guys are really doing stuff, so don't let us use our local knowledge to diminish the credibility of this field.

About those self-taught developers. I for one am self-taught, and I'm not delusional in any way. Shebi as my school no fit teach me programming, I no go learn am on my own?

Knowing how to program and knowing how to analyze and solve problems using programming are 2 different things.
I once met a self taught programmer, in programming aspect the guy was really good, but in analyzing problems, you can call him a zombie.

we happen to work on a company project, where we were trying to develop a software for the said business.

I teased him with a simple problem to solve:
It was a simple function we were to incorporate in the program so I gave the task for him to solve:

You want to buy A sanitary pad. If 34.8% of $10 is for 3 pads, how many pads would he buy for 67.2% of $800.

i. Write out a greedy algorithm to solving this problem

ii. Use the concept of data flow/flow chart to expressly solve this problem

ii. Write out the formula used, expressed in your own mathematical terms.

iii. Design a program app that solves this problem.

He looked at the problem realising he had to use the pen and a paper to solve the problem, he bluntly said, "I cannot solve this, am a programmer not a mathematician.!"

I said to him, "you ought to have learned that, you ought to have learned how programmatically express mathematical problems, you write programs to solve a problem, but you can't solve problems".

my point is, supposed you followed a tutorial and was taught how to code with Swift.
I was taught how to write and solve problems with Swift
who do you think gets the job
and even if we did get the job...
who do you think becomes the boss

don't quote me, don't argue with me...
just food for thought.!!!

thariodamaniac:
check the evolution of computer science one thing is common the compilation of knowledge and application.... Application in which form?? Programming is the car itself not the engine

let me not argue with you. You are not a computing scientist and if you were you just only had a certificate but lack the understanding.

From Wikipedia