MuttleyLaff:
Gbam!

"Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen."
- Hebrews 11:1

If he/she lacked confidence, trust, belief, optimism, positive attitude et cetera, completing the hoped Phd would never become a reality

Abi o, long time bro, how have you been?

Tamaratonye5:
Don’t you see the nonsensical contradiction in your statement?

First you must submit, then you will have faith?
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Actually, that's action and a history of your own ability… say you have a history of getting Bs to A and you have an interest in your subject material. You study, listen take notes - pass tests. Your "faith" is confidence in yourself to accomplish your goal.

Some people have an irrational view of themselves and this might lead to “faith” in their abilities - even though there is no evidence for it - like some of these folks

MuttleyLaff:
"²³Jesus replied, “Why do you say ‘if you can’?
Anything is possible for someone who has faith!”
²⁴At once the boy's father shouted,
“I do have faith! Please help me to have even more.”"
- Mark 9:23-24

If I honestly go in front of my microwave and patiently wait for the Nairaland web page to load up on it. Will my faith be justified? Will I have results/answers of a Nairaland web page appear before me anywhere on the microwave?

There is little faith, there is pseudo/false faith, there is weak faith, there is ignored faith, there is having no faith, there is room for more faith, there is et cetera faith

Sometimes, it is good to be honest about the sort of faith one has and be humble about it too

Daejoyoung:
Abi o, long time bro, how have you been?

We thank God for His Mercies, Goodness, Faithfulness, Blessings et cetera. Thank you for asking, you're being amazing asking. Trust all is well with you too

MuttleyLaff:
We thank God for His Mercies, Goodness, Faithfulness, Blessings et cetera. Thank you for asking, you're being amazing asking. Trust all is well with you too

Yes bro, we thank God.

Faith is the excuse people give when they have no good reason to believe something.

Kobojunkie:
How can there be folly in a risk tha turned out in my favour after all?

Unfortunately, good sir, you have just opened up a huge can of worms, easily dispelled. I could easily offer dozens of examples, but I will submit two, each quite different in the people involved, but each with tragic outcomes.

Carsyn Leigh Davis

Here is a small excerpt from https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2020/07/07/a-high-risk-florida-teen-who-died-from-covid-19-attended-a-huge-church-party-then-was-given-hydroxychloroquine-by-her-parents-report-says/

A medical examiner’s report recently made public, however, is now raising questions about Carsyn’s case. The Miami-Dade County Medical Examiner found that the immunocompromised teen went to a large church party with roughly 100 other children where she did not wear a mask and social distancing was not enforced. Then, after getting sick, nearly a week passed before she was taken to the hospital, and during that time her parents gave her hydroxychloroquine, an anti-malarial drug touted by President Donald Trump that the Food and Drug Administration has issued warnings about, saying usage could cause potentially deadly heart rhythm problems.

Second example.

Nineteen young men, who had the potential to live full lives and be moral, were swayed by their religion into committing one of the most evil and horrific acts in modern history. They were the terrorists who martyred themselves in 911.
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Daejoyoung:

Exactly, confidence in yourself, in God, or in something, for certain reasons, is what is called Faith.

Why do you keep capitalizing the word faith?

Confidence is measured - meaning:

- the state of feeling certain about the truth of something.
e.g. "it is not possible to say with confidence how much of the increase in sea levels is due to melting glaciers"

- a feeling of self-assurance arising from one’s appreciation of one’s own abilities or qualities.
"she's brimming with confidence"

Daejoyoung:
Faith in jesus or God to me, is based on solid grounds

Actually, "confidence" can be used against you if there is no evidence of truth - i.e a confidence man or "con man". Normally they play off of people's fear, greed or ignorance. Things they say will make sense, and sometimes, depending on the "game" you'll get a little back at first to lure you in deeper.

Your "faith" is not on solid ground. It is God's Word (no evidence of god or that "it's" communicating with anyone) written by men - you have to take their (the men) word for it. That's shaky and invisible ground - the Koran, Book of Mormon, etc (cult leaders) all get special knowledge from god to pass to men - "confidence game".

Daejoyoung:
if the words of jesus when applied to my life for instance, turn things around for me as compared to my previous ways, then I can say that I have some reasons for my faith

You have reason for believing in yourself. Self help gurus and motivational speakers and fictional books and non fiction books and songs and art, movies - the list goes on where a person can get inspiration or self help messages.
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MuttleyLaff:
Faith, is a currency, used in the Kingdom of Heaven

So your god is transactional?

Do you realize that by making such an assertion, you completely destroy the argument that your god is a loving god?

Tamaratonye5:

Unfortunately, good sir, you have just opened up a huge can of worms, easily dispelled. I could easily offer dozens of examples, but I will submit two, each quite different in the people involved, but each with tragic outcomes.

Carsyn Leigh Davis

Here is a small excerpt from https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2020/07/07/a-high-risk-florida-teen-who-died-from-covid-19-attended-a-huge-church-party-then-was-given-hydroxychloroquine-by-her-parents-report-says/

A medical examiner’s report recently made public, however, is now raising questions about Carsyn’s case. The Miami-Dade County Medical Examiner found that the immunocompromised teen went to a large church party with roughly 100 other children where she did not wear a mask and social distancing was not enforced. Then, after getting sick, nearly a week passed before she was taken to the hospital, and during that time her parents gave her hydroxychloroquine, an anti-malarial drug touted by President Donald Trump that the Food and Drug Administration has issued warnings about, saying usage could cause potentially deadly heart rhythm problems.

Second example.

Nineteen young men, who had the potential to live full lives and be moral, were swayed by their religion into committing one of the most evil and ...

You confuse me. What has any of this to do with my exact explainations to you of what faith really is?

Tamaratonye5:
Unfortunately, good sir, you have just opened up a huge can of worms, easily dispelled.

The first can of worms had a warning label on it before A&E opened it

Tamaratonye5:
I could easily offer dozens of examples, but I will submit two, each quite different in the people involved, but each with tragic outcomes.

Carsyn Leigh Davis

Here is a small excerpt from https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2020/07/07/a-high-risk-florida-teen-who-died-from-covid-19-attended-a-huge-church-party-then-was-given-hydroxychloroquine-by-her-parents-report-says/

A medical examiner’s report recently made public, however, is now raising questions about Carsyn’s case. The Miami-Dade County Medical Examiner found that the immunocompromised teen went to a large church party with roughly 100 other children where she did not wear a mask and social distancing was not enforced. Then, after getting sick, nearly a week passed before she was taken to the hospital, and during that time her parents gave her hydroxychloroquine, an anti-malarial drug touted by President Donald Trump that the Food and Drug Administration has issued warnings about, saying usage could cause potentially deadly heart rhythm problems.

Second example.

Nineteen young men, who had the potential to live full lives and be moral, were swayed by their religion into committing one of the most evil and horrific acts in modern history. They were the terrorists who martyred themselves in 911.

"The woman saw how beautiful the tree was and how good its fruit would be to eat,
and she thought (i.e. hoped or had faith) how wonderful it would be to become wise.
So she took some of the fruit and ate it.
Then she gave some to her husband, and he also ate it."
- Genesis 3:6

Tamaratonye5, please beware of those who thought, hope and/or faith are based on their own ideas, feeling(s) and what they think is right and not on God's word. Case in point, Genesis 3:6 above

Tamaratonye5:
Why do you keep capitalizing the word faith?

Daejoyoung didnt capitalise the word, what he did was title case, meaning that the first letter of the word faith is/was capitalized. This he does to to make a distinction as being biblical faith in comparison to whatever else faith there is

Tamaratonye5:
Confidence is measured - meaning:

- the state of feeling certain about the truth of something.
e.g. "it is not possible to say with confidence how much of the increase in sea levels is due to melting glaciers"

- a feeling of self-assurance arising from one’s appreciation of one’s own abilities or qualities.
"she's brimming with confidence"

Actually, "confidence" can be used against you if there is no evidence of truth - i.e a confidence man or "con man". Normally they play off of people's fear, greed or ignorance. Things they say will make sense, and sometimes, depending on the "game" you'll get a little back at first to lure you in deeper.

Your "faith" is not on solid ground. It is God's Word (no evidence of god or that "it's" communicating with anyone) written by men - you have to take their (the men) word for it. That's shaky and invisible ground - the Koran, Book of Mormon, etc (cult leaders) all get special knowledge from god to pass to men - "confidence game".

You have reason for believing in yourself. Self help gurus and motivational speakers and fictional books and non fiction books and songs and art, movies - the list goes on where a person can get inspiration or self help messages.

"So faith comes from what is heard,
and what is heard comes through the message about Christ."
- Romans 10:17

If what is proposed, presented, offered, brandished et cetera to you, has no bearing to what you've heard come through by the word of Christ, then pronto reject, jettison, decline, the trojan gift, refuse the "sounds too good to be true attractive looking proposition" et cetera

It is God's word written by men under the inspiration of God (i.e. 2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Tamaratonye5:
So your god is transactional?

Do you realize that by making such an assertion, you completely destroy the argument that your god is a loving god?

"Now without faith it is impossible to please God,
for the one who draws near to Him must believe that He exists
and rewards those who seek Him. "
- Hebrews 11:6

Since you too daily transact in faith, are you trying to say you aren't a loving person ni, hmm?

If you like, use god, instead of God, till the cows came home, it doesnt change the fact, what God is nor does it change the truth, who God is. It is like, as if shutting out the sun or blacken up the windows for a time, means the sun has gone away or doesnt exist

Dtruthspeaker:


In my Sleep I can still answer that You Yourself Do Not know if it is a Fabrication or not, for a Truth, for you and I were not there, when it happened.

Which is why I answered that Such Acts Will Be Consistent to the Acts of A God, Who should not Only Do the Possibilities but the Impossibles as Well!!!

To impregnate another man's wife... So much for Thou shall not commit adultery..

Kobojunkie:
You confuse me. What has any of this to do with my exact explainations to you of what faith really is?

A person can commit themselves completely to a religion based on nothing but "faith". In fact, this is what you have advocated. I suspect you assume that committing to a faith is beneficial (and I do not deny that it may), but you appeared to ignore the possible negative aspects of such an action. Thus, I pointed out two easy examples on people who committed to their religion purely on "faith", and the result was tragic.

Faith leads you down a path, and sometimes it leads into a very dark place. You believe it leads to sunshine, glory, and heaven. It may do the opposite. This is one reason why I reject the action of blind faith, but instead first insist on real evidence to support my position.
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MuttleyLaff:
"The woman saw how beautiful the tree was and how good its fruit would be to eat,
and she thought (i.e. hoped or had faith) how wonderful it would be to become wise.
So she took some of the fruit and ate it.
Then she gave some to her husband, and he also ate it."
- Genesis 3:6

Tamaratonye.5, please beware of those who thought, hope and/or faith are based on their own ideas, feeling(s) and what they think is right and not on God's word. Case in point, Genesis 3:6 above

Do you not see this problem? You suggest those who commit actions based on blind faith do it on their own ideas, yet you quoted a biblical passage to support your assertion?

You cannot even defend your position without resorting to blind faith and quoting the bible.

For your information MuttleyLaff, to me and some others on this forum, the bible carries as much weight as used toilet paper. Not everyone believes in it. One sways arguments not by quoting the bible, but offering cogent and rational arguments.

MuttleyLaff:
Daejoyoung didnt [capitalize] the word...

MuttleyLaff:
...what he did was title case, meaning that the first letter of the word faith is/was capitalized.

Do you realize you contradicted yourself, in the same sentence? I'm guessing almost certainly not.

You're just another stereotypical apologist. In that you use the standard intellectual dishonesty of biblical hermeneutics and exegisis to claim the bible doesn’t actually mean what it says.

Ironically, as Bart Erhrman shows in Misquoting Jesus, the bible has been altered and mistranslated so much nobody knows what was written in the original Greek

If they were not so pathetic and dangerous, the claims of the literalists would be hilarious.

Historically, the Bible, especially the Old Testament, has been used to justify the most disgusting behaviour. Ranging from slavery to the murder of 'witches' and homosexuals. The hatred of homosexuals and other non hetero people remains a focus for the hatred of those pig ignorant drongos.

>>MISQUOTING JESUS<<

MuttleyLaff:
"So faith comes from what is heard,
and what is heard comes through the message about Christ."
- Romans 10:17

You missed the part where I don't believe the bible is gods word - why should you quote it to me Besides the scripture you picked says comes through what is heard (from Paul, who heard it from others, who heard it from… sounds like trusting gossip to me)

MuttleyLaff:
If what is proposed, presented, offered, brandished et cetera to you, has no bearing to what you've heard come through by the word of Christ, then pronto reject, jettison, decline, the trojan gift, refuse the "sounds too good to be true attractive looking proposition" et cetera

Exactly which Christian (they tell me different things) or which church in Canada (somehow excluding all the other holy books written by men who heard god). DEC 2019

https://www.indexmundi.com/canada/religions.html

MuttleyLaff:
It is God's word written by men under the inspiration of God (i.e. 2 Timothy 3:16-17)

You shouldn't have left out verse 15 which says taught from infancy (indoctrination - no different then Islamic children or Hutterite kids on colony). BUT anyway… the rest reads:

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Does the Old Testament get included with all Scripture? If not, then it's not all scripture is it?

MuttleyLaff:
"Now without faith it is impossible to please God,
for the one who draws near to Him must believe that He exists
and rewards those who seek Him. "
- Hebrews 11:6

Since you too daily transact in faith, are you trying to say you aren't a loving person ni, hmm?

I pointed out that your god is transactional, your response was to attack me. Thus, I must assume you have no defense.

Attached picture is for you. Rule #1
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Daejoyoung:
It's difficult, but I tried to explain Biblical Faith there, it is not blind or totally without rational as many atheists and even Christians assume.

It certainly must be difficult. I don't disagree with the notion that Christian academics have established for themselves the truth of their faith through solid rational argument but the important point remains that those arguments begin with the assumption that your god exists without objectively supported facts or evidence.

You presume your god's existence through heightened personal experiences and sensations and naturally enough seek to substantiate your heartfelt claims. I suggest you forgo the difficulty of rationalising your god because it is an anecdotal experience, and not an argument to be debated.

Tamaratonye5:
A person can commit themselves completely to a religion based on nothing but "faith".

If the definition of "faith" at that level is what you had really wanted, the dictionary definition would have sufficed.

Tamaratonye5:
In fact, this is what you have advocated. I suspect you assume that committing to a faith is beneficial (and I do not deny that it may), but you appeared to ignore the possible negative aspects of such an action. Thus, I pointed out two easy examples on people who committed to their religion purely on "faith", and the result was tragic.

I still have no clue what you are talking about.

Tamaratonye5:
Faith leads you down a path, and sometimes it leads into a very dark place. You believe it leads to sunshine, glory, and heaven. It may do the opposite. This is one reason why I reject the action of blind faith, but instead first insist on real evidence to support my position.

I honestly have no idea how any of what you have said relates to the definition of faith I gave you or anything I have said concerning it.

Tamaratonye5:

A person can commit themselves completely to a religion based on nothing but "faith". In fact, this is what you have advocated. I suspect you assume that committing to a faith is beneficial (and I do not deny that it may), but you appeared to ignore the possible negative aspects of such an action. Thus, I pointed out two easy examples on people who committed to their religion purely on "faith", and the result was tragic.

Faith leads you down a path, and sometimes it leads into a very dark place. You believe it leads to sunshine, glory, and heaven. It may do the opposite. This is one reason why I reject the action of blind faith, but instead first insist on real evidence to support my position.
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Do you not see this problem? You suggest those who commit actions based on blind faith do it on their own ideas, yet you quoted a biblical passage to support your assertion?

You cannot even defend your position without resorting to blind faith and quoting the bible.

For your information MuttleyLaff, to me and some others on this forum, the bible carries as much weight as used toilet paper. Not everyone believes in it. One sways arguments not by quoting the bible, but offering cogent and rational arguments.




Do you realize you contradicted yourself, in the same sentence? I'm guessing almost certainly not.

You're just another stereotypical apologist. In that you use the standard intellectual dishonesty of biblical hermeneutics and exegisis to claim the bible doesn’t actually mean what it says.

Ironically, as Bart Erhrman shows in Misquoting Jesus, the bible has been altered and mistranslated so much nobody knows what was written in the original Greek

If they were not so pathetic and dangerous, the claims of the literalists would be hilarious.

Historically, the Bible, especially the Old Testament, has been used to justify the most disgusting behaviour. Ranging from slavery to the murder of 'witches' and homosexuals. The hatred of homosexuals and other non hetero people remains a focus for the hatred of those pig ignorant drongos.

>>MISQUOTING JESUS<<


You missed the part where I don't believe the bible is gods word - why should you quote it to me Besides the scripture you picked says comes through what is heard (from Paul, who heard it from others, who heard it from… sounds like trusting gossip to me)


Exactly which Christian (they tell me different things) or which church in Canada (somehow excluding all the other holy books written by men who heard god). DEC 2019

https://www.indexmundi.com/canada/religions.html


You shouldn't have left out verse 15 which says taught from infancy (indoctrination - no different then Islamic children or Hutterite kids on colony). BUT anyway… the rest reads:

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Does the Old Testament get included with all Scripture? If not, then it's not all scripture is it?


I pointed out that your god is transactional, your response was to attack me. Thus, I must assume you have no defense.

Attached picture is for you. Rule #1
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It certainly must be difficult. I don't disagree with the notion that Christian academics have established for themselves the truth of their faith through solid rational argument but the important point remains that those arguments begin with the assumption that your god exists without objectively supported facts or evidence.

You presume your god's existence through heightened personal experiences and sensations and naturally enough seek to substantiate your heartfelt claims. I suggest you forgo the difficulty of rationalising your god because it is an anecdotal experience, and not an argument to be debated.

Going by your so called ten commandments, you guys argue against your own logic!

(1) You guys base your arguments on reports and rumours against JWs!

(2)When we give you evidence of our God's presence, you turn to generalize Christianity as if there shouldn't be original and fake.

(3)With all the achievements of our God in making LOVE, JOY and PEACE reign in our midst, you guys centralize on false reports of evildoers mixing with us.

(4)Atheists and Freethinkers assume that God doesn't exist because they can't see him yet they want to believe in black holes, big bang and even evolution which they've not seen.

(5)This is the most stupid rule, you people want everyone to believe in evolution which never occurred neither did anyone witnessed it.

(6) You want religionsists to discard God but carry evolution, big bang and black holes in their heads when these has nothing to do with humanity.

(7) Who brought about the idea of Evolution?

( Mere claims don't work out so when you see something working, it's pointless asking for evidence!

(9) There is no assumption in documents found mentioning names, venue and dates of events.

(10) Why do you wear clothes if not because it's popular?

Tamaratonye5:
I want to talk about faith. Of what use is faith in spite of evidence, or the lack thereof? I need rational answers.

Imagine trying to describe snow in Africa before the TV and freezer era. How would you, when there is no substance in Africa similar.
It's similarly impossible to explain faith because it comes from a spiritual dimension and must be experienced to be known but the Lord Jesus Christ, lacking a parallel eventually used the human word for "belief" to represent it because it ultimately yields a belief. Faith itself is essentially different from believing, though producing belief/conviction of its own.
Believing is something all humans can do without faith just by learning whether religious knowledge or scientific. And we have all developed belief systems since birth. This believing is not faith.
Faith is spiritual substance, God's own essence which he gives to men out of Himself. When present and operating, it overcomes whatever at all stands in its way and never fails, not bound by natural limitations because it comes from a supernatural dimension.

The confusion today and the seeming failure of "faith"(wrongly called) even among respected ministers of God, is believing stuff which may be true indeed but believing exclusive of the divine essence itself i.e. faith.
But the problem believers have is after they receive faith, they never learn to get it to operate rather they simply sit back and learn all of the Christian belief system from the ministers of God and scriptures. No matter how true the doctrine may be, it can only form true beliefs and guide our actions. However, to get the supernatural results that come from faith, the believer must go beyond this to activating his faith.
Like every believer on this thread will tell you they believe Jesus can heal the sick yet if they prayed for healing and do not see sickness healed, while their belief is indeed true, the resulting failure is only due to the lack of faith despite the presence of belief.
For instance, I have no physical evidence or logical reason to believe the death of God on a cross for my sins but when the spiritual substance entered my heart, it made me know that this indeed happened, also for my sake and that it bought my forgiveness leading me to freedom instantly from guilt of all wrongs done without a human agency.
People who grow up in church may believe this but if without the spiritual substance of faith in their heart, they remain separated from God, despite their religious activities. However someone who never learned this but who then receives this spiritual substance of faith in heart, will then be restored to fellowship with God.
The believer can go on to develop his mastery of this spiritual substance of faith that earned him forgiveness and get any other supernatural results he desires.

Daejoyoung:
When you tell yourself that you would complete your PhD for example, even where all the odds are against you completing it, and without any real evidence that you will, when you believe and continue to read, that is Faith.

This may just be natural self confidence, except there was some completely supernatural activity involved. Faith is supernatural.

Kobojunkie:
I honestly have no idea how any of what you have said relates to the definition of faith I gave you or anything I have said concerning it.

If you say so.

This conversation took a turn when you stated:

"How can there be folly in a risk that turned out in my favour after all?"

And I proceeded to point out just a few tragic outcomes from using faith as you defined.

"faith is a collection of all works done in trust and obedience to God’s commandments serving as evidence of your claim to believe."

All I have done is follow the carrot you have dangled.

Tamaratonye5:

If you say so.

This conversation took a turn when you stated:

"How can there be folly in a risk that turned out in my favour after all?"

And I proceeded to point out just a few tragic outcomes from using faith as you defined.

"faith is a collection of all works done in trust and obedience to God’s commandments serving as evidence of your claim to believe."

All I have done is follow the carrot you have dangled.

Nah, you didn't even make an attempt at following THE carrots that I dangled before you.

Hello TATIME,

Time is too valuable to dwell or fixate on complete ridiculousness. I'm going to address the only points worthy of recognition in this farce you call a response:
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TATIME:
Going by your so called ten commandments, you guys argue against your own logic!

In case you didn’t notice, those were the Ten Commandments of LOGIC. Has nothing to do with atheism. Atheists have no "commandments", unless some individual has his/her own personal set by which they abide. Some atheists are incredibly logical. Some are not-so-terribly logical. And it varies widely in between. This fact alone exposes the rest of your rant as mere outpouring of emotions.

TATIME:
(2)When we give you evidence of our God's presence, you turn to generalize Christianity as if there shouldn't be original and fake.

I dare you to begin a thread and cite your "evidence" for god. I would love to hear it. Mind you, it has to be objective and falsifiable.

Oh, and before you ask: NO. Your subjective JW propaganda doesn't count. If I see that crap, I'm ignoring the thread.

TATIME:
(4)Atheists and Freethinkers assume that God doesn't exist because they can't see him yet they want to believe in black holes, big bang and even evolution which they've not seen.

Admittedly, concepts such as gravity, strong and weak nuclear forces, to name a few, are more measurable than prayer or any of god's other interventions into the world, even though you still can't see them.

In any event, you have my permission to bitch_ to the mods to have atheists who claim there is no god to be removed from the site. I dislike stupid atheists around here as much as I dislike moronic statements about gods… like yours.

TATIME:
(5)This is the most stupid rule, you people want everyone to believe in evolution which never occurred neither did anyone witnessed it.

...Then here's the good news: If you choose not believe in evolution, it's no skin off my nose. A fact you seem not be aware of is that atheism has nothing to do with evolution. If evolution is disproved this very moment, I'm still going to be atheist.

TATIME:
(7) Who brought about the idea of Evolution?

Does it matter?

Guess who brought about the idea of the Big Bang though? It was a Catholic funnily enough. All the more reason your diatribes against concepts like evolution and the big bang amuse most atheists such as myself

TATIME:
(10) Why do you wear clothes if not because it's popular?

TATIME, why do YOU wear clothes …didn’t your god create you naked? Ehn?. Isn’t that the "perfection" he originally designed for ya’ll?

You misunderstood every fallacy on that list and you just assumed the arguments you presented didn't attack anyone's character. You misrepresented atheist viewpoints, made hasty generalisations, made further assumptions that your premises were true, completely misunderstood the post hoc, false dichotomy, ad ignoratum, and burden of proof reversal fallacies, made a non-sequitur attack on the non-sequitur fallacy and completely rolled, totalled and wrote off the bandwagon fallacy.

I was going to award you a participation trophy (for your troubles at least), but I'm tempted to give you a broom instead, to clean up this sorry mess of a response.

Please don't quote me again unless it's something sensible. I won't dignify you with a response next time.



Edited for factual goofs

BELIEVE AND DON'T BITE THE HANDS FEED YOU.

Dtruthspeaker:
In my Sleep I can still answer that You Yourself Do Not know if it is a Fabrication or not, for a Truth, for you and I were not there, when it happened.

Which is why I answered that Such Acts Will Be Consistent to the Acts of A God, Who should not Only Do the Possibilities but the Impossibles as Well!!!

sonmvayina:
To impregnate another man's wife... So much for Thou shall not commit adultery..

"¹⁸This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about:
His mother Mary was pledged in marriage to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.
¹⁹Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and was unwilling to disgrace her publicly, he resolved to divorce her quietly.
²⁰But after he had pondered these things, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream
and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to embrace Mary as your wife, for the One conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
²¹She will give birth to a Son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus,d because He will save His people from their sins.”"
- Matthew 1:18-21

After the angelic visitation to Joseph, in a dream, did he have any reason to be aggrieved at Mary being pregnant or accuse Mary of committing fornication/adultery?

Tamaratonye5:
A person can commit themselves completely to a religion based on nothing but "faith". In fact, this is what you have advocated. I suspect you assume that committing to a faith is beneficial (and I do not deny that it may), but you appeared to ignore the possible negative aspects of such an action. Thus, I pointed out two easy examples on people who committed to their religion purely on "faith", and the result was tragic

Faith leads you down a path, and sometimes it leads into a very dark place. You believe it leads to sunshine, glory, and heaven. It may do the opposite. This is one reason why I reject the action of blind faith, but instead first insist on real evidence to support my position.

I equally gave you the instance of A&E, of having a wrong faith. The negative aspect of that action led to death, misery, destruction, suffering, loss, opening up a Pandora box et cetera.

Tamaratonye5, a tad point of correction here please, religion and faith might be linked but they aren't intrinsically the same thing. Religion, as a matter of fact and/or on one hand, is a pursuit, obligation, commitment or interest, followed with great devotion and/or regularity while faith, on the other hand, is a complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

People commit themselves to football, to shopping, to hockey games, to fashion, to cricket, to helping others in need, to et cetera, to 1001 other religion. James 1:27, tells of the religion that is true, pure and the sort that God finds no flaws in nor fault with

Tamaratonye5:
Do you not see this problem? You suggest those who commit actions based on blind faith do it on their own ideas, yet you quoted a biblical passage to support your assertion?

You cannot even defend your position without resorting to blind faith and quoting the bible.

Tamaratonye5, fyi and with all due respect, blind faith, would be in the same category as adventurism and/or foolhardiness. It is having unwise confidence, it is misplaced trust, it is belief without employing true and full understanding

I reiterate Tamaratonye5 to please beware of those whose thought, hope and/or faith are based on their own ideas, feeling(s) and on what they think is right when it is not based on God's word. Case in point, Genesis 3:6 earlier given

Tamaratonye5:
For your information MuttleyLaff, to me and some others on this forum, the bible carries as much weight as used toilet paper. Not everyone believes in it. One sways arguments not by quoting the bible, but offering cogent and rational arguments.

You are free and within your rights to use the bible as wallpaper. If using it as toilet paper is your thing. Happy days. Fyi, I travel a lot and go all over the place, but I live in the Bible. The Bible is my home. It is my reference point, it is the Manufacturer's manual book. All I have in offer to you is nothing less than a clear cut cogent and rational discussion. Misunderstanding the sun and/or not believing in the sun, doesnt preventing the sun from always rising in the east and setting in the west

Tamaratonye5:
Do you realize you contradicted yourself, in the same sentence? I'm guessing almost certainly not.

I haven't contradicted myself. If you hadn't known, well, FAITH, with all the letters written in upper case like that, is whats called "capitalisation" or "capitalised", however, Faith, with the first letter in the word, written in upper case and the rest letters, in lower case, is called "[I]title case[/i]"

Tamaratonye5:
You're just another stereotypical apologist. In that you use the standard intellectual dishonesty of biblical hermeneutics and exegisis to claim the bible doesn’t actually mean what it says.

Ironically, as Bart Erhrman shows in Misquoting Jesus, the bible has been altered and mistranslated so much nobody knows what was written in the original Greek

If they were not so pathetic and dangerous, the claims of the literalists would be hilarious.

You aren't telling me something I dont already know. I am on record to on numerous times highlighted that the Bible for political, theology, hidden agenda, ulterior motive, personal gain/interest/advantage, ignorance, doctrinal error et cetera has been wilfully altered and mistranslated

Tamaratonye5:
Historically, the Bible, especially the Old Testament, has been used to justify the most disgusting behaviour. Ranging from slavery to the murder of 'witches' and homosexuals. The hatred of homosexuals and other non hetero people remains a focus for the hatred of those pig ignorant drongos.

Do a search on Religion forum, of each of those terms against MuttleyLaff, to have an epiphany

Tamaratonye5:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misquoting_Jesus

I am well familiar Dr Bart Erhrman's works and even have a copy of "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why" in my e-library. I have on more than one occasion had a divergent interpretation to the way he has interpreted some issues.

Tamaratonye5:
You missed the part where I don't believe the bible is gods word - why should you quote it to me Besides the scripture you picked says comes through what is heard (from Paul, who heard it from others, who heard it from… sounds like trusting gossip to me)

I quoted a Biblical definition of what faith is so that you know what my source is. Even if you dont believe in the law of gravity, it doesnt mean, it wouldn't affect you if you should down down a high rise building without some much of a parachute on

Tamaratonye5:
Exactly which Christian (they tell me different things) or which church in Canada (somehow excluding all the other holy books written by men who heard god). DEC 2019

https://www.indexmundi.com/canada/religions.html

I never used Christian, so what are you on about

Tamaratonye5:
You shouldn't have left out verse 15 which says taught from infancy (indoctrination - no different then Islamic children or Hutterite kids on colony). BUT anyway… the rest reads:

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Does the Old Testament get included with all Scripture? If not, then it's not all scripture is it?

All scripture is talking about Old Testament

Tamaratonye5:
I pointed out that your god is transactional, your response was to attack me. Thus, I must assume you have no defense.

Why would I want to attack you? If you typed "So your god is transactional? Do you realize that by making such an assertion, you completely destroy the argument that your god is a loving god?" and I merely borrowed you comment by exchanging you in, since you too daily transact in faith, and then ask, if you trying to say you aren't a loving person ni, is that an attack, hmm?

Tamaratonye5:
Attached picture is for you. Rule #1

If you had believed in the Bible anyway, I would have brought your attention to the ninth commandment of the Ten Commandments (i.e. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour), but since its the the Ten Commandments of Logic, is your preference, then let it be known that you fell foul of the first, second and fourth commandment

Tamaratonye5:
It certainly must be difficult. I don't disagree with the notion that Christian academics have established for themselves the truth of their faith through solid rational argument but the important point remains that those arguments begin with the assumption that your god exists without objectively supported facts or evidence.

Your existence is a starting point, objectively supported fact or evidence that God exists

Tamaratonye5:
You presume your god's existence through heightened personal experiences and sensations and naturally enough seek to substantiate your heartfelt claims. I suggest you forgo the difficulty of rationalising your god because it is an anecdotal experience, and not an argument to be debated.

"So faith comes from what is heard,
and what is heard comes through the message about Christ."
- Romans 10:17

"Now without faith it is impossible to please God,
for the one who draws near to Him must believe that He exists
and rewards those who seek Him. "
- Hebrews 11:6

Truth will always be truth, regardless of lack of understanding, disbelief or ignorance. The truth about God, will always be the truth even if you and/or no one believes it.

MuttleyLaff:


"¹⁸This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about:
His mother Mary was pledged in marriage to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.
¹⁹Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and was unwilling to disgrace her publicly, he resolved to divorce her quietly.
²⁰But after he had pondered these things, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream
and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to embrace Mary as your wife, for the One conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
²¹She will give birth to a Son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus,d because He will save His people from their sins.”"
- Matthew 1:18-21

After the angelic visitation to Joseph, in a dream, did he have any reason to be aggrieved at Mary being pregnant or accuse Mary of committing fornication/adultery?

You are using the gospel stories to prove the gospel stories... Give me a passage in the old testament where God planed it..

Tamaratonye5:
Hello TATIME,

Those were the Ten Commandments of LOGIC. Has nothing to do with atheism. Atheists have no "commandments"

I helped you to summarize the whole gibberish to the point that's useful in your lengthy epistle!

The ten commandments of logic that's not recognized by religionsists nor atheist, then who brought it up in the first place?

sonmvayina:
So you believe that sometimes in the past ,the creator of the universe impregnated another man's wife ..to give birth to a man that was killed by the Romans for treason..you have faith in this story..

Are you saying that you just suspended your mental capacity for this story?

Faith indeed.

Dtruthspeaker:
I am Clearly Saying, That the Mighty Creator of Man, in Show of His Mightiness to man and the whole world, Did What Has Never Been Done.

In That He Shows The World, That if He Wills it, A Virgin Shall be With Child, Even Though she did not have sex.

An Action of which Has Never Be Done Before and He is Still Keeping it Personal to Him, Alone Today.

Which is what A Mighty God Must Do.
Further, it is Consistent with All His Mighty Actions, which is that, They Are all, First of a Kind and Last of a Kind, at the Same Time; Never Before Seen, Never After Seen.

Exactly as A Mighty Shall Do!

sonmvayina:
To impregnate another man's wife... So much for Thou shall not commit adultery..

MuttleyLaff:
"¹⁸This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about:
His mother Mary was pledged in marriage to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.
¹⁹Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and was unwilling to disgrace her publicly, he resolved to divorce her quietly.
²⁰But after he had pondered these things, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream
and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to embrace Mary as your wife, for the One conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
²¹She will give birth to a Son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus,d because He will save His people from their sins.”"
- Matthew 1:18-21

After the angelic visitation to Joseph, in a dream, did he have any reason to be aggrieved at Mary being pregnant or accuse Mary of committing fornication/adultery?

---

---

---

sonmvayina:
You are using the gospel stories to prove the gospel stories... Give me a passage in the old testament where God planed it..

Your short attention span has stopped you remaining focus only to have your mind wander off from alleged adultery to now "Give me a passage in the old testament where God planed it..." sic

TATIME:


I helped you to summarize the whole gibberish to the point that's useful in your lengthy epistle!

The ten commandments of logic that's not recognized by religionsists nor atheist, then who brought it up in the first place?

Nice try, you adorwable widdle kitty-kitty. But you are still not getting a participation trophy just because you again demonstrate your lack of reading comprehension skills.

[s]

TATIME:


I helped you to summarize the whole gibberish to the point that's useful in your lengthy epistle!

The ten commandments of logic that's not recognized by religionsists nor atheist, then who brought it up in the first place?

[/s]
Who liked this dumbass comment? Logic can be used by anybody. Not just atheists or Christians.

TATIME:


I helped you to summarize the whole gibberish to the point that's useful in your lengthy epistle!

The ten commandments of logic that's not recognized by religionsists nor atheist, then who brought it up in the first place?

It is not religious but based on man's understanding on how to discuss productively w/ other ppl

It is a secular guideline created by humans 2 b used by humans.

sonmvayina:


To impregnate another man's wife... So much for Thou shall not commit adultery..

Your query, as shown below

sonmvayina:


So you believe that sometimes in the past ,the creator of the universe impregnated another man's wife ..to give birth to a man that was killed by the Romans for treason..you have faith in this story..

Are you saying that you just suspended your mental capacity for this story?

Faith indeed.

Is about My Stand and Confidence in God in The Virgin Birth Story, which I have Settled

Not About the Merits or otherwise of the story, which is a Fresh Matter.

So it is Finished Indeed!

MuttleyLaff:
Gbam!

"Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen."
- Hebrews 11:1

If he/she lacked confidence, trust, belief, optimism, positive attitude et cetera, completing the hoped Phd would never become a reality

In my humble opinion, all the examples of faith recorded in the Bible are based on knowledge. And the players possess Certain Specific knowledge about the Event!

All Hopes in the Bible are Clearly what we call Expectations and Wishes and Petitions or Requests or Prayers!

Tmach137:

It is not religious but based on man's understanding on how to discuss productively w/ other ppl
It is a secular guideline created by humans 2 b used by humans.

We aren't producing anything here now but just chatting!

When it's time for production, both atheist and religionsists get involved, so what we're discussing now is about common human traits that's affecting our society, so bringing in rules or commandments regarding production is pointless!

Dtruthspeaker:


Your query, as shown below


Is about My Stand and Confidence in God in The Virgin Birth Story, which I have Settled

Not About the Merits or otherwise of the story, which is a Fresh Matter.

So it is Finished Indeed!

It is actually..you are free to believe whatever your little brain can conjure up..it really does not change the truth or facts...

My God is too big for your puny mind to comprehend..

Dtruthspeaker:
In my humble opinion, all the examples of faith recorded in the Bible are based on knowledge. And the players possess Certain Specific knowledge about the Event!

All Hopes in the Bible are Clearly what we call Expectations and Wishes and Petitions or Requests or Prayers!

Out of creating a test suite with at least two test cases, the test data will be used to test and/or check the accuracy of the comment(s) in your post.

1/ Since, in your humble opinion, all the examples of faith recorded in the Bible are based on knowledge, please explain how Abraham faith(s) was/were based on knowledge
2/ Since you advanced that "And the players possess Certain Specific knowledge about the Event!" then what Certain Specific knowledge did Abraham possess about the Event centering around him asked to go sacrifice his only begotten son, Isaac?

[s]

TATIME:


We aren't producing anything here now but just chatting!

When it's time for production, both atheist and religionsists get involved, so what we're discussing now is about common human traits that's affecting our society, so bringing in rules or commandments regarding production is pointless!

[/s]

MuttleyLaff:
Tamaratonye.5, a tad point of correction here please, religion and faith might be linked but they aren't intrinsically the same thing. Religion, as a matter of fact and/or on one hand, is a pursuit, obligation, commitment or interest, followed with great devotion and/or regularity while faith, on the other hand, is a complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

One can not have religion without faith. Religion has not provided one shred of evidence for a god.

MuttleyLaff:
Tamaratonye.5, fyi and with all due respect, blind faith, would be in the same category as adventurism and/or foolhardiness. It is having unwise confidence, it is misplaced trust, it is belief without employing true and full understanding

I have been in a helicopter, in a storm, and looked out one window to see the opposite horizon. We were practically inverted. It was fun, but for me not a great concern. I knew the aircraft thoroughly, and the level of competence of the pilots. It was not "faith", but an understanding of the laws of physics, the level of competence of the pilots, and the capabilities of the aircraft.

My trust was not misplaced, those were the very same pilots who managed to set the rear end of their helicopter on the small landing pad of a Russian trawler, flying backwards, in a storm. it was an emergency evacuation of a man with acute appendicitis.

MuttleyLaff:
I quoted a Biblical definition of what faith is so that you know what my source is.

Actually - faith is already defined by the bible in Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see."

MuttleyLaff:
Even if you dont believe in the law of gravity, it doesnt mean, it wouldn't affect you if you should down down a high rise building without some much of a parachute on

Why wouldn’t I have confidence in the Law of Gravity? That’s a dumb analogy. There is demonstrable evidence of its existence and it’s explanation or description by science is commonly accepted.

MuttleyLaff:
I never used Christian, so what are you on about

Ahhh, now the games begin, eh? See what faith gets you when you extend it towards a fellow man, lol. So, you aren't saying you are Christian or that you aren't Christian or that you even believe the bible to be god inspired or anything, right? My reply in response to your bible faith definition to me of: "is heard comes through the message about Christ". My bad for assuming you linked faith to Christ or Christians (tsk, tsk, tsk)

MuttleyLaff:
All scripture is talking about Old Testament

Do you believe the bible to be God's word? Are you a Christian? Do you believe Jesus is God?

I wouldn’t want to assume anything moving forward

MuttleyLaff:
If you had believed in the Bible anyway, I would have brought your attention to the ninth commandment of the Ten Commandments (i.e. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour), but since its the the Ten Commandments of Logic, is your preference, then let it be known that you fell foul of the first, second and fourth commandment

Thank you for the ad hominem attack. Duly noted.

MuttleyLaff:
Your existence is a starting point, objectively supported fact or evidence that God exists

"So faith comes from what is heard,
and what is heard comes through the message about Christ."
- Romans 10:17

"Now without faith it is impossible to please God,
for the one who draws near to Him must believe that He exists
and rewards those who seek Him. "
- Hebrews 11:6

Truth will always be truth, regardless of lack of understanding, disbelief or ignorance. The truth about God, will always be the truth even if you and/or no one believes it.

Paul of Tarsus wrote a lot about faith and redemption. His passionate writing never fails to move the faithful. I use to quote from his epistles when I preached to uncomprehending non-believers and I could not understand their lack of enthusiasm for Paul’s grand writing. There is something ironic about Christians quoting Paul about belief and faith and how both are all you need to come to Jesus.

Paul was a proud Pharisaic student of Gamaliel, the famous rabbi who invoking his usual measure of compassion and common sense, saved Peter and the other real apostles and the future of their brand new Jewish heresy from execution and possible total oblivion (Acts 5). Paul no doubt was indoctrinated in the sacred worth of human life, but none the less, despite his association with Gamaliel set off on a bloody campaign against the heretics of Jesus.

Paul became a murderer. He makes a passing Nuremberg defence about his part in the deaths of perhaps hundreds of early followers of Jesus. His guilt must have been a heavy burden, and it might be, that in a state of denial, attempting to smother his guilt, he doubled down and sought out even more heretics to condemn, as proof of his devotion and the righteousness of his actions, to himself as much as to others. Then he went to Damascus. Paul’s conversion wasn’t a result of his belief or faith. It was an physical mind-shattering event, in broad daylight, on the hard road to Damascus. He believed he experienced the presence, and heard the voice of Jesus Christ himself.

I suspect he suffered a severe temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE), induced by his intense mental anguish brought on by guilt and fear of divine punishment. The TLE would account for his temporary blindness. The noonday Gallilean sun might also have contributed. Yet he came away from Damascus neatly forgiven and charged with yet another religious obsession to prove his passionate devotion to his god, which was now Jesus, rather than YHWH. This was no ethereal spiritual revelation or blessing. For Paul it was a brutally perceived reality. From the evidence of his own deranged senses he had no choice but to believe, if only for the sake of his own sanity. Its ironic that Christians now quote him in the defence of the lofty merits of blind faith and supposedly logical belief.

All of that is for the choir. I realise now my audience of 40 years ago with no sense of guilt or fear or need of redemptions, would have needed a Damascene event, in reality, of their own, to establish a faith and belief in a god. Just like Paul. Why is it they dont get one and are doomed to eternal punishment? Right, logical.