₦airaland Forum

In the year 1857, a white Missionary visited Ile-Ife to preach the Christian message. The Ooni and the Chiefs granted him audience, and a large crowd of Ife Chiefs and People gathered at the Palace to hear him , with the Ooni Himself present but not physically seen. The white man stood up and, for over one hour, preached the Christian gospel Message : The Message of the Almighty God who created Heaven and Earth, and who gave his laws to Mankind : Of Mankind sinning and falling from the glory of God; of God loving Mankind so much that He gave His only begotten Son to save Mankind from their sins ; and of Jesus, the Son of God, who came to the world, gave His life, and offered Mankind the way to reconcile with God and be saved from perishing in their sins. The white Missionary then urged Ife people to give up the gods whom they and their ancestors had been worshipping, and to accept the "only true God" and his Son Jesus Christ, so as to be able to escape from the consequences of their sins.


Before sitting down, he said he would like to receive an answer from the Ife people. The Ife Chiefs conferred briefly and asked the youngest Chief among them to respond. The young Chief stood up and after paying due respect to the Ooni, he said,


"white man, in the name of our great King, our Chiefs and all our people, we thank you for coming to our ancient City. The stream is always clear at its source, but as it flows away from its source, it passes through different kinds of countries, and it thereby takes on different kinds of colours. All religion started from Ife, but as it spread to distant countries, after distant countries, it took on different versions. What you have come to preach to us today is one version that developed in your distant Country. Nevertheless, you are welcome to our ancient Country. On behalf of our King, Our Chiefs and Our people, we thank you".


(From the diary of the said missionary, David Hinderer).The famous St Ann.s secondary school,Molete,Ibadan was named after his late wife Ann Hinderer.

Apt response if u ask me

...and that was how the empire joined others to lose glory.
...and it became PAN-epidemic today.

CHOPbeating:
...and that was how the empire joined others to lose glory.
...and it became PAN-epidemic today.

And now these same 'guests' are behaving as if this land is their birthright!

PAGAN9JA:
And now these same 'guests' are behaving as if this land is their birthright!

Abi o.. na so we see am for naija today.

We have lost value.

CHOPbeating:
Abi o.. na so we see am for naija today.

We have lost value.

Verily.

Can you prove you are the origin of all religions?

Resonance with the history av read. Op you are on point.

MysteryFinder:
Resonance with the history av read. Op you are on point.

Prove it. That's a huge statement for one group to say they are the origin of all belief.

TheBedWench:
Can you prove you are the origin of all religions?

In my opinion, the Ife priest who answered may not be right but I think he is wise by not giving in to the story of the whites. Is that not how the earth runs package? One man comes with a philosophy another man cones with another philosophy and they may both be wrong but what matters is who defends his own better.

Otematum I sight you. I av sent you mail you didn't reply me.

TheBedWench:
Prove it. That's a huge statement for one group to say they are the origin of all belief.

Bible also claims it is the origin of all mankind. It's like a matter of one philosophy and another.

MysteryFinder:
Bible also claims it is the origin of all mankind. It's like a matter of one philosophy and another.

Even that's questionable so don't avoid answering how like they do so often.

MysteryFinder:
In my opinion, the Ife priest who answered may not be right but I think he is wise by not giving in to the story of the whites. Is that not how the earth runs package? One man comes with a philosophy another man cones with another philosophy and they may both be wrong but what matters is who defends his own better.

Very good answer.

CHOPbeating:
Abi o.. na so we see am for naija today.

We have lost value.

follow whatever works 4 you, afterall ur identity z urs.

MysteryFinder:
Otematum I sight you. I av sent you mail you didn't reply me.

I have seen it. I will reply soon. Thanks.

MysteryFinder:
In my opinion, the Ife priest who answered may not be right but I think he is wise by not giving in to the story of the whites. Is that not how the earth runs package? One man comes with a philosophy another man cones with another philosophy and they may both be wrong but what matters is who defends his own better.

The matter of proselyting is something that has been ongoing since the origin of the earth. Someone comes with a belief system and tries by all means to make others drop theirs and follow his. I have many of such ''proselyticizing' scenarios in the Book of Universal History. Let me share one of such here:

Niklatians 2 : 1- 31

NIKLATIANS
CHAPTER TWO

1. Now the next day, Niklas said to stevin, it is time to return to Roma. And stevin said, I have been humiliated yesterday by that old witch who worships trees. And I shall not go until I have humiliated her back. 2. For I am searching through the words which Zeusus left behind to counter her. And Niklas said, many wise homos had come after Nemonis to see her back, but none of them have succeeded. It is better that you sit back and watch. For she cannot be conquered with words of the mouth, being now 72 years and full of experience. 3. Now stevin said again, take me to Nemonis once again, and I shall show her what I am. And Steven took an axe with him and went to the place of Nemonis. And he said, come out O you old witch. For I have got reply to your foolishness. 4. And Nemonis came outside and said, do you not regard the old? For how do you come without greeting and knocking? For this is not a good thing in our culture. 5. And stevin said, I have come to show you that the god whom you serve is mortal and we know that God should be immortal. And Nemonis said, show me that God is mortal. And stevin took the axe and began to cut down the tree which Nemonis worship. And when it was down, stevin said, see I have killed your god. 6. And Nemonis said, let us go there and I will show you that my God is still alive. And when stevin followed Nemonis to a place not far away, she went before a tree there and did her worship. And she said, I have told you before that my God is omnipresent. So he is everywhere. And you cannot say of him that he is dead, because you shall always find him at the turning around of your head. 7. Now know also that the tree in my house which you cut down shall take root again and grow. For no one can kill God. For God cannot be created or destroyed. For even the tree which you cut down shall nourish the soil upon which it fell and the soil shall be better than before. Therefore God whom I serve has not died, but has transmitted his energy into another thing. 8. And if you insist O stevin that you shall kill God, then go and uproot all the trees in the whole world. But I tell you that before you might have gone round the world to do this, some other trees would have taken root again. 9. Now stevin said, my god created all these trees. And Nemonis said, what is the proof? And stevin could not give clear explanation, for he had only the Tora with him to make his proof. And Nemonis said, I cannot read and write, so how shall I know what you have there? 10. But I have mouth to speak and I shall tell you how the trees created all things also. And these are the things spoken by our forefathers. And stevin said, your forefathers have told you a lie. 11. And Nemonis said, which of these two should I believe more? Your forefathers or mine? For my forefathers are they who gave me life and the clothes which I put on. And they left this house for me for free. 12. Now tell me what advantage has your forefathers done to me to believe them? 13. And stevin said, believe at least in Zeusus the Krist. And Nemonis said, believe also in Ristot the great, or in As-clepius the god who made use of magic and herbs from trees to cure sicknesses. 14. Now when stevin saw that he could not prevail over her, he left her and departed. And Niklas said, have you seen, O stevin that the god of Juda is not known here. And the gods which they worship seem also very real to them. And there is no matter in which you can judge them. 15. For in wisdom, they have it. And in the matter of cure, they know it even more than us. And in morality, they do not lack anything. And there are no proofs to show that your own god is more powerful than theirs. For in growing to old age, they grow and they do not die young all the time. 16. For as it is in Juda, so it is in this place also. 17. And stevin said, let us go tomorrow to other people who worship other things. For I know that I shall convert a soul in this place to Zeusus and that soul shall help to spread our gospel. 18. Now Niklas brought stevin to an homofal who worship stones and sand. And she was old also like Nemonis. And her name was Klopaat. And stevin greeted her well and she set food before them, saying, eat and be happy. And she brought wine and they drank also. 19. Now Steven said after they had eaten, who is god whom you worship? And the homofal said, the soil is God. And stevin laughed so much that the food got into his head. And when he was settled again, he said, why do you worship sand as your god? 20. And Klopaat said, can you do anything without the soil? Can you plant your crops in the air? 21. And stevin said, but you know that the true god made this soil which you worship as god. And Klopaat said, God himself is the soil. And stevin said, can the soil exist without God? 22. And Klopaat said, can any god exist without the soil? And stevin took out the books of the history of Juda and began to read in the tongue of Grecon. And Klopaat said, with what is that book made which you read from, and stevin said, it is made with papyrus. 23. And Klopaat said, did you not say earlier that your god is the god of Juda who lives in the paradise? How come you are speaking for the god which Nemonis believe on? And stevin was confused, saying, I do not know what you are saying? 24. And Klopaat said, you are reading from a papyrus, which is made of trees, therefore that is the god of Nemonis and not the god of Juda. And stevin could not speak anymore. And Klopaat said, I await your god to speak from the paradise from which he lives and not you speaking from the papyrus which is the god of Nemonis. 25. When stevin heard this, he said, this is witchcraft. And Klopaat said, if you call the things of nature witchcraft, then you do not deserve to be here. For the soil you walk upon is God and the soil upon which you plant is God and with God did you build your house. 26. And with God did you make your tablets which you write on. Yet you did not appreciate God who is nature and is everywhere. For there is no place you go without soil. And there is nowhere you walk upon without soil. And soil is in the depth of the ocean and even in the air. 27. So why do you not accept the omnipresence of the soil? And through the soils do our fathers consult their higher self to reveal mysteries to them, using the cowries and the shells which are the things of nature. 28. And with the soil and stones do we cure many sicknesses and diseases here. So why do you say that we should not do our worship to the soil? 29. Now when stevin heard this, he said, you are possessed of the devils. And he left her alone. 30. And stevin was greatly bothered when he laid his back to rest. And Niklas went to him and said, it shall be hard to change the people in this place to the worship of the god of Juda except by the use of force. 31. But I know that many of them shall accept to die rather than leaving their beliefs for foreign believes.

OtemAtum

Good story defending paganism.

No part is equal to the whole.

No tree is equal to God or all the trees in the world.

No soil is equal to the true and living God for he is present in all soil.

There is no defense for polytheism for people arre taking this part of creation or that part to worship when it all is God. And even greater God is above his creation.

They abandon the Creator and worship the creature or created thing or process. And there is animation in all these men find phenomenal and foolishly equate to God.

OtemAtum:
The matter of proselyting is something that has been ongoing since the origin of the earth. Someone comes with a belief system and tries by all means to make others drop theirs and follow his. I have many of such ''proselyticizing' scenarios in the Book of Universal History. Let me share one of such here:

Niklatians 2 : 1- 31

NIKLATIANS
CHAPTER TWO

1. Now the next day, Niklas said to stevin, it is time to return to Roma. And stevin said, I have been humiliated yesterday by that old witch who worships trees. And I shall not go until I have humiliated her back. 2. For I am searching through the words which Zeusus left behind to counter her. And Niklas said, many wise homos had come after Nemonis to see her back, but none of them have succeeded. It is better that you sit back and watch. For she cannot be conquered with words of the mouth, being now 72 years and full of experience. 3. Now stevin said again, take me to Nemonis once again, and I shall show her what I am. And Steven took an axe with him and went to the place of Nemonis. And he said, come out O you old witch. For I have got reply to your foolishness. 4. And Nemonis came outside and said, do you not regard the old? For how do you come without greeting and knocking? For this is not a good thing in our culture. 5. And stevin said, I have come to show you that the god whom you serve is mortal and we know that God should be immortal. And Nemonis said, show me that God is mortal. And stevin took the axe and began to cut down the tree which Nemonis worship. And when it was down, stevin said, see I have killed your god. 6. And Nemonis said, let us go there and I will show you that my God is still alive. And when stevin followed Nemonis to a place not far away, she went before a tree there and did her worship. And she said, I have told you before that my God is omnipresent. So he is everywhere. And you cannot say of him that he is dead, because you shall always find him at the turning around of your head. 7. Now know also that the tree in my house which you cut down shall take root again and grow. For no one can kill God. For God cannot be created or destroyed. For even the tree which you cut down shall nourish the soil upon which it fell and the soil shall be better than before. Therefore God whom I serve has not died, but has transmitted his energy into another thing. 8. And if you insist O stevin that you shall kill God, then go and uproot all the trees in the whole world. But I tell you that before you might have gone round the world to do this, some other trees would have taken root again. 9. Now stevin said, my god created all these trees. And Nemonis said, what is the proof? And stevin could not give clear explanation, for he had only the Tora with him to make his proof. And Nemonis said, I cannot read and write, so how shall I know what you have there? 10. But I have mouth to speak and I shall tell you how the trees created all things also. And these are the things spoken by our forefathers. And stevin said, your forefathers have told you a lie. 11. And Nemonis said, which of these two should I believe more? Your forefathers or mine? For my forefathers are they who gave me life and the clothes which I put on. And they left this house for me for free. 12. Now tell me what advantage has your forefathers done to me to believe them? 13. And stevin said, believe at least in Zeusus the Krist. And Nemonis said, believe also in Ristot the great, or in As-clepius the god who made use of magic and herbs from trees to cure sicknesses. 14. Now when stevin saw that he could not prevail over her, he left her and departed. And Niklas said, have you seen, O stevin that the god of Juda is not known here. And the gods which they worship seem also very real to them. And there is no matter in which you can judge them. 15. For in wisdom, they have it. And in the matter of cure, they know it even more than us. And in morality, they do not lack anything. And there are no proofs to show that your own god is more powerful than theirs. For in growing to old age, they grow and they do not die young all the time. 16. For as it is in Juda, so it is in this place also. 17. And stevin said, let us go tomorrow to other people who worship other things. For I know that I shall convert a soul in this place to Zeusus and that soul shall help to spread our gospel. 18. Now Niklas brought stevin to an homofal who worship stones and sand. And she was old also like Nemonis. And her name was Klopaat. And stevin greeted her well and she set food before them, saying, eat and be happy. And she brought wine and they drank also. 19. Now Steven said after they had eaten, who is god whom you worship? And the homofal said, the soil is God. And stevin laughed so much that the food got into his head. And when he was settled again, he said, why do you worship sand as your god? 20. And Klopaat said, can you do anything without the soil? Can you plant your crops in the air? 21. And stevin said, but you know that the true god made this soil which you worship as god. And Klopaat said, God himself is the soil. And stevin said, can the soil exist without God? 22. And Klopaat said, can any god exist without the soil? And stevin took out the books of the history of Juda and began to read in the tongue of Grecon. And Klopaat said, with what is that book made which you read from, and stevin said, it is made with papyrus. 23. And Klopaat said, did you not say earlier that your god is the god of Juda who lives in the paradise? How come you are speaking for the god which Nemonis believe on? And stevin was confused, saying, I do not know what you are saying? 24. And Klopaat said, you are reading from a papyrus, which is made of trees, therefore that is the god of Nemonis and not the god of Juda. And stevin could not speak anymore. And Klopaat said, I await your god to speak from the paradise from which he lives and not you speaking from the papyrus which is the god of Nemonis. 25. When stevin heard this, he said, this is witchcraft. And Klopaat said, if you call the things of nature witchcraft, then you do not deserve to be here. For the soil you walk upon is God and the soil upon which you plant is God and with God did you build your house. 26. And with God did you make your tablets which you write on. Yet you did not appreciate God who is nature and is everywhere. For there is no place you go without soil. And there is nowhere you walk upon without soil. And soil is in the depth of the ocean and even in the air. 27. So why do you not accept the omnipresence of the soil? And through the soils do our fathers consult their higher self to reveal mysteries to them, using the cowries and the shells which are the things of nature. 28. And with the soil and stones do we cure many sicknesses and diseases here. So why do you say that we should not do our worship to the soil? 29. Now when stevin heard this, he said, you are possessed of the devils. And he left her alone. 30. And stevin was greatly bothered when he laid his back to rest. And Niklas went to him and said, it shall be hard to change the people in this place to the worship of the god of Juda except by the use of force. 31. But I know that many of them shall accept to die rather than leaving their beliefs for foreign believes.

Wawu This is so enlightening. I raise cap for the old woman.

TheBedWench:
OtemAtum

Good story defending paganism.

No part is equal to the whole.

No tree is equal to God or all the trees in the world.

No soil is equal to the true and living God for he is present in all soil.

There is no defense for polytheism for people arre taking this part of creation or that part to worship when it all is God. And even greater God is above his creation.

They abandon the Creator and worship the creature or created thing or process. And there is animation in all these men find phenomenal and foolishly equate to God.

What if a pagan asks you for a proof that trees were created by a god? How will you prove this? Do you know that if you tell them a story of how a god created trees, they can also tell you stories that in the beginning, it's only trees that are in existence. Then some trees become rock, some become water, some become moon, sun, etc. So by doing this, they have made trees which you assume as a creature into the CREATOR.

OtemAtum:
What if a pagan asks you for a proof that trees were created by a god? How will you prove this? Do you know that if you tell them a story of how a god created trees, they can also tell you stories that in the beginning, it's only trees that are in existence. Then some trees become rock, some become water, some become moon, sun, etc. So by doing this, they have made trees which you assume as a creature into the CREATOR.

No part is equal to the whole.

TheBedWench:
No part is equal to the whole.

I agree with you on this and that is my stance also. But what do you think of religious gods like Jehovah and Allah? Are they the whole you have in mind?

@OtemAtum , No Animist Tribal Religion has engaged in proselytization. It does not make any sense in the Pagan context which is cultural. Even the Romans and Greeks when they conquered foreign lands, rather than force their beliefs on them, they adopted foreign Gods such as Isis, Mithra, etc., and brought them back with them to Rome. The Greeks adopted Egyptian Gods in Egypt and Hindu Gods in India. The Cross River Igbos despite conquering those areas under the Aro Confederacy, adopted the Ekpe Cult of the Delta Animists. It was never a war of religion for Pagans. Pagans never declared religious war. I have told you before as well that you cannot paint Pagan relations with the same brush as Abrahamic religions. Proselytization starts and ends with the abrahamists. Not from the begining of time.

Pagans always believe that the God/ Spirit belongs to a place and needs to be worshipped there. If I go to Lagos I will join the Yoruba in worship to their Orisa. If I go to Ohafia I, will worship the Alusi of the Igbo. But I know my ancestral religon so when I return home I will worship the Gods of my ancestors.

OtemAtum:
I agree with you on this and that is my stance also. But what do you think of religious gods like Jehovah and Allah? Are they the whole you have in mind?

They are monotheistic gods as the same as Brahman. There are about 7 monotheism religions on Earth. Christianity is a pagan religion that pagans used to mask themselves.

When man worships creation their gods will fall in 3 categories.

Animal gods

Ancestral gods

God kings which includes Jinn and Angels

Worshiping animals leads to animalistic behavior and you can see that among very primitive people. They believe they are certain animals and act as such.

Worshipping ancestors spawn alot of cannibalism as people would eat their dead relatives so they would stay together. They contact these dead spirits seeking advice for worldly problems which results in them being deceived by Jinn spirits who knew their relatives.

Worshipping God kings you have this in many Empires, Egypt, Greece, Babylon, Rome, etc that's where a living or dead king is God of Gods. This god complex causes abuses and it creates more little gods in rivals. The state of Ancient Egypt was no different than Nigeria today. You have big men living heaven on Earth and a huge majority living in abject poverty. Egyptian houses for the poor were just as uninhabitable as the houses of many poor Nigerians. Forget the monumental pyramids and temples just the same ignore the beautiful mega churches and mosques. Egypt was no different than modern Nigeria. Its the god complex behind all the corruption.

PAGAN9JA:
@OtemAtum , No Animist Tribal Religion has engaged in proselytization. It does not make any sense in the Pagan context which is cultural. Even the Romans and Greeks when they conquered foreign lands, rather than force their beliefs on them, they adopted foreign Gods such as Isis, Mithra, etc., and brought them back with them to Rome. The Greeks adopted Egyptian Gods in Egypt and Hindu Gods in India. The Cross River Igbos despite conquering those areas under the Aro Confederacy, adopted the Ekpe Cult of the Delta Animists. It was never a war of religion for Pagans. Pagans never declared religious war. I have told you before as well that you cannot paint Pagan relations with the same brush as Abrahamic religions. Proselytization starts and ends with the abrahamists. Not from the begining of time.

You are right though. Going by the story of Nemonis and Stevin I put up above, it was actually Stevin of the Abrahamic religion that was trying to proselyte Nemonis and Klopaat who were both pagans but they were successfully able to defend their religion.

TheBedWench:
They are monotheistic gods as the same as Brahman. There are about 7 monotheism religions on Earth. Christianity is a pagan religion that pagans used to mask themselves.

When man worships creation their gods will fall in 3 categories.

Animal gods

Ancestral gods

God kings which includes Jinn and Angels

Worshiping animals leads to animalistic behavior and you can see that among very primitive people. They believe they are certain animals and act as such.

Worshipping ancestors spawn alot of cannibalism as people would eat their dead relatives so they would stay together. They contact these dead spirits seeking advice for worldly problems which results in them being deceived by Jinn spirits who knew their relatives.

Worshipping God kings you have this in many Empires, Egypt, Greece, Babylon, Rome, etc that's where a living or dead king is God of Gods. This god complex causes abuses and it creates more little gods in rivals. The state of Ancient Egypt was no different than Nigeria today. You have big men living heaven on Earth and a huge majority living in abject poverty. Egyptian houses for the poor were just as uninhabitable as the houses of many poor Nigerians. Forget the monumental pyramids and temples just the same ignore the beautiful mega churches and mosques. Egypt was no different than modern Nigeria. Its the god complex behind all the corruption.

Okay

OtemAtum:
You are right though. Going by the story of Nemonis and Stevin I put up above, it was actually Stevin of the Abrahamic religion that was trying to proselyte Nemonis and Klopaat who were both pagans but they were successfully able to defend their religion.

Converting people is the wrong approach. Instead establish trade with them and leave them to their business.

OtemAtum:
You are right though. Going by the story of Nemonis and Stevin I put up above, it was actually Stevin of the Abrahamic religion that was trying to proselyte Nemonis and Klopaat who were both pagans but they were successfully able to defend their religion.

My Goodness. I just read that story you posted. A beautiful one and it very correctly and accurately depicts our beliefs and the behaviour of the abrahamists we have to deal with. Thank you!

I believe this must be a true story.

PAGAN9JA:
My Goodness. I just read that story you posted. A beautiful one and it very correctly and accurately depicts our beliefs and the behaviour of the abrahamists we have to deal with. Thank you!

I believe this must be a true story.

Hebrews are Blacks. Those Whites who came and colonized you were Christians. The story says they were Whites. Christians are pagans who worship paganism in secret by Freemasonry and the Jesuit order. Hebrews are not pagans, they never enslaved, colonized or forced religion upon any people. Those Jews are converts and not the seed of the Black Abraham. The pagans we fought were in the Middle East and we fought Rome who are pagans. Some of the story needs to be told correct so healing of tensions can take place between Black Isrealites and Black Hamites. This tension is rooted in the Levant not West Africa.

Yet no way anyone can get around it pagan cultures started slavery, homosexuality, and human sacrifice. You can't blame that upon monotheism.

TheBedWench:
Hebrews are Blacks.

I don't like to waste my time discussing with African Americans.

Kindly refrain from quoting me again and derailing my thread. Thanks.

PAGAN9JA:
I don't like to waste my time discussing with African Americans.

Kindly refrain from quoting me again and derailing my thread. Thanks.

Wow. You're really on a high horse and can't come down.

Stay there.

Remember you posted in my thread first and I will respect your wish however.