₦airaland Forum

Offpoint1:
My point is not about sins, my point is about believe.

Wether you are a pagan or whatever you believe in... If you involve yourself in evil doings you'll be damm, there's no way to justify that.

I will not or ever encourage anyone to indulge his/herself in evil doings.

If I'm judged and damned for my evil doings or if I'm judged and reward for my right doings... Then that's Justice.
But if I'm judged and damned because of my believe or if I'm judged and rewarded because of my believe... Then I see no Justice in that.

Offpoint1:
You're giving me a Christian view, I need a universal view.
If God predestined you to be a Christian and then it is also God that predestined me to be a Muslim...

Then what's the sense of of you wanting me to become or convert to a Christian or Muslim when God has already predestined me to be what I am?

Offpoint1:
I've never in my life believed those who are dead are in heaven or hell. Nobody will make heaven or hell without being judged and we know the Bible stated there will be resurrection of the just and unjust to face judgment at the judgment.
So we are not to be judged twice.

As for hell being scam, I have my own believe.
If there is prison for our earthly crime, then definitely there is a place we all serve punishment after God's judgment.

Bros , no place like at all.
Hellfire is a Scam.
2 Peter 2:6,What is the precedence that Yahweh has set?
Is everlasting fire torturing and tormenting the inhabitants of Sodom & Gomorrah till today?
Compare 2 Thess1:7-9 & Jude1:7,
Luke 17:29-30, Jesus says what happened before will be repeated again.Bros, connect the dots.
What was that, that happened before?
Was it everlasting torture and torment in a fiery furnace?
Luke 17:29-30, believe & listen to Jesus Christ. Don't fall for the hellfire Scam.
.
.

Janosky:
Bros , no place like at all.
Hellfire is a Scam.
2 Peter 2:6,What is the precedence that Yahweh has set?
Is everlasting fire torturing and tormenting the inhabitants of Sodom & Gomorrah till today?
Compare 2 Thess1:7-9 & Jude1:7,
Luke 17:29-30, Jesus says what happened before will be repeated again.Bros, connect the dots.
What was that, that happened before?
Was it everlasting torture and torment in a fiery furnace?
Luke 17:29-30, believe & listen to Jesus Christ. Don't fall for the hellfire Scam.
.
.

livingchrist:
A universal view, like one that appeals to everyone? I doubt there is such thing as that.
Do you know that all most every tribe believe there is a God Almighty whom they believed js so far and unreachable that they needed smaller gods.The problem is that people at all timelines has always rejected God, if they had not rejected the knowledge of God he would have lead them to Christ just like he lead Abraham to Christ although christ was born many thousands of years later.

If Abraham who never knew Christ physically,
yet God preached to Abraham and was saved then not knowing Christ will not be an excuse.

The preaching of the gospel did not start today, it started from the creation of the world the problem is that men have being rejecting it or twisting it, to their taste.

God's predestination play out in time, those who has being predestined needs to be called that is the reason for evangelism, only those who are predestined will respond to God's calling.
As for muslims being predestined to be muslims, that is not true, what make people embrace false religion like islam is their love for lies, and looking for a way to do evil.
Jesus said humans love darkness rather than light, It has being like that right from the creation of the world and there is no excuse for that.

Offpoint1:
Are these 'groups" you talked about by one's choice or birth?

Offpoint1:
I've never in my life believed those who are dead are in heaven or hell. Nobody will make heaven or hell without being judged and we know the Bible stated there will be resurrection of the just and unjust to face judgment at the judgment.
So we are not to be judged twice.

As for hell being scam, I have my own believe.
If there is prison for our earthly crime, then definitely there is a place we all serve punishment after God's judgment.

DappaD:
Just like AkinwaleJJ mentioned earlier, there are some groups of people before Jesus Christ who have already been judged—Adam&Eve, Noah's contemporaries, Inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah etc
So you're commended for scrutinizing what you were taught to believe in—rather than following what the crowd believes.



Do you believe the Bible is the higher authority we can look up to for explanation regards certain things like these?

Offpoint1:
Regarding if the Bible is the higher authority to look up to for explanation regarding certain things like this...

I have a different view about the Bible and Quran. I've always seen them as an historical books.

Believe me, both are very complex Books no matter how "spiritual" you claim to be you'll never understand it fully.

God is not an author of confusion, yet so many even Bible scholars can't explain the Bible.

I've always seen them as books that have been tempered with.
"Nothing should be added or removed from the word... Yet some books from the Bible has been removed hence we are having 66 books (I know scholars will give explanations to this which I refused to buy)

If you claimed the Bible is absolutely God's word who God INSPIRED the past apostles and prophets to write. Then today there are books written by almost most pastors and they all claimed God inspired them to do so... Does that make such books absolute words of God?

I will stop here concerning that, I don't like sharing my view about the Bible in public forum.

The only way to know God's nature is through God creations. They all reflect who God is.

Not to misquote I enjoy reading the Bible, it's like a life manual if you open up your minds to understanding.

Offpoint1:
Like I said, I have my own believe about "Hell"... If I'm to go with the Sodom and Gomorrah context, then What did the verse 9 of that 2 Thess 1:7-9?
you quoted says?

A lot of Christians have zero or little knowledge of what "Hell" is
Maybe I'll create a different thread for that.

I have my reasons of not quoting Bible verses in my write ups.
There are Bible verses that stated "the wicked will be no more, they'll burn up"

Then there are Bible verses that talks about eternal destruction...

Read the 2Thess 1:7-9 you quoted, focus on the verse 9 and then read Malachi 4:1-5

HOW does the both sound to you?

In real sense humans CAN'T BURN when they are dead, let's assume they appear in the spirit realm. They still CAN'T BURN cause fire have no effects on spirit. You need your humanly body to be able to literally BURN hence the reasons "there will be resurrection of the just and unjust" your sins were committed in the flesh so you'll be punishment in the flesh.
(I know someone will quote me about WEARING OF NEW BODY)

God is just that's why flesh will suffer for its sins and not spirit suffering for the sins of the flesh.

The very Hellfire people talked about will be right here on earth and so will be "heaven"

Offpoint1:
Where are those people now or where will they be... Heaven or Hell?

Kobojunkie:
They all simply died... i.e. perished, just like their ancestors before them who did not believe in God, and those after them who also did not believe. From after the fall of man(Adam, if you remember, did not eat from the Tree of Life, so he did not obtain immortal life), man was cursed to die and returned back to the dust from whence He was made. It had remained that way for all those who do not believe in and obey God. Even those of the Old Covenant who lived unrighteous lives where cursed to die/perish at the end of it all. In the book of Ezekiel 18, God re-assured that all those who sin must die.

There is no heaven or hell for those who do not believe in God. Their souls are not immortal so there is no life after death for them. Jesus Christ was a game changer, and He came to man offering eternal life which is He. His offer was for all those who accepted Him. Eternal life only belongs to those who believe in Jesus Christ, for He is the Life(eternal life) that we have in Him, and yes, only those who believe in Him can eventually move on to end in Heaven or in Hell.

Offpoint1:
There's different between "Refusing to believe in God" and not "knowing God existed" to believe in.

Should a person who's ignorant of God existence and someone who refused to believe in God serve the same punishment?

Kobojunkie:
God already pronounced his verdict, from the beginning, on those who choose to refuse Him, starting with Adam. He has not changed that verdict even to this day.

Neither did Jesus Christ come to change that verdict. What Jesus Christ came to do was provide those who want to come to the Father, a way through Himself. According to Jesus Christ, many are called but only few are chosen. So, not everyone is expected to take the way. Many will try to but will allow themselves be decieved - those will end up in Hell. The few who stay focused on Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ alone, are the ones that are chosen and only they will make it to Heaven where the Father is.

Offpoint1:
The Christians believe no one will make heaven without Jesus... Their believe I can say is based on John 14:6
" Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me"
.......
I want to ask this question and I need highly spiritual or well knowledge Christians to answer.

During Jesus time on earth, I believe He didn't Journey through the entire earth to preach, nor do the apostles and at that time I believe there were humans who don't even know His existence as at that time due to geographical location.

Where are those people now or where will they be... Heaven or Hell?

Missionaries first landed in Nigeria in the 15th century and this was thousands of years after Jesus existence. Thousands of our ancestors lived and died before the arrival of missionary without the knowledge of Jesus existence.

Where are they now or where will they be... Heaven or Hell?

If your answer is Hell...
If they are in hell because they don't know Jesus, will that still make God JUST in his judgment?

If your answer is heaven...
Explain John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me"
Or explain what Christians mean by "Nobody will make heaven without Jesus"

Righteousness89 I once asked you this questions and for reasons known to you... You ignored.
Your contribution is needed here.


I only focus my questions on those who lived since the birth of Jesus, because if I should take us back to B.C it'll be a long thread.

Cc: Lalasticlala
OAM4J

Ihedinobi3:
Hi there.

I think your question has been answered by livingchrist about as well as anyone who believes the Bible and understands the Christian worldview can. It would seem then that the issue is not whether or not this question has been considered in the biblical point of view, rather it is that you think that things should be different than they are.

You are certainly entitled to your feelings and philosophies, but they really aren't the Christian's business or problem in any way. We believe what we believe and we do so without any reference or apologies to you, but so do you. You are not required to satisfy us with what you believe or don't believe. You have the image of God, so you certainly have every right to believe or not believe whatever you want. On the flip side, however, you are responsible for the consequences of your beliefs or lack thereof, just as you alone are entitled to any rewards due to them.

So, again, just to repeat what livingchrist told you,

There is no person who has ever lived or is living or will ever live who has not had all the opportunity or motivation that they could possibly use either to seek out the Gospel or to accept it when it was spoken to them. Not a soul. That is the biblical position:


1 The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork. 2 Day unto day utters speech, And night unto night reveals knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language Where their voice is not heard. 4 Their line has gone out through all the earth, And their words to the end of the world. In them He has set a tabernacle for the sun, 5 Which is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, And rejoices like a strong man to run its race. 6 Its rising is from one end of heaven, And its circuit to the other end; And there is nothing hidden from its heat.
Psalms 19:1-6 (NKJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Romans 1:18-21 (NKJV)

Now, you may not care for this or believe it, but that really can't be helped. The only thing that the Christian owes you is an answer from the Bible about what we believe and why we believe it. You are not obliged to believe anything that you don't want to believe.

As for all the extraneous stuff about Heaven and Hell, any normally functional human being who reads the Bible knows that these things exist in the biblical worldview. In fact, there is a passage that even speaks of the Lord Jesus going to the angelic spirits who were in the prison in the subterranean parts of the universe because of their disobedience in the time of Noah to proclaim His Victory on the Cross to them. Incidentally, that prison is in Hades or Sheol, which is exactly the same region where those who die as unbelievers now are taken and held until the Judgment of the Great White Throne. Not only does this part of the Bible speak of this Abyss or Pit in Hades/Sheol/Hell, but it also speaks of Heaven in very stark terms.

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
1 Peter 3:18-22 (NKJV)

There are a great many references both to Hades as a whole including the three compartments in it: the Abyss/Pit/Prison where rebel angels who violate divine mandates and exceptions in their war against God are confined; Torments where unbelievers are kept in, well, torment until the Judgment; and the empty Paradise where Old Testament believers were kept in waiting in a place of delight until Jesus Christ would come and pay for all human sin and open the way to Heaven where He took them with Him in His Ascension (see, e.g., Isaiah 14:15; Luke 16:22-26).

8 Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.” 9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
Ephesians 4:8-10 (NKJV) (compare Isaiah 14:17)

Offpoint1:
Until you gimme a non religious view of God judgment method, until then I have my views of things.

God created humans, he didn't create black, white, brown, yellow, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or atheist... All these are earthly things we invented. Adam and Eve weren't described as Christians or Muslims, nor black or white.

So when He not judge them based on the ground religion, tribe or beliefs.

He'll judge them according to their works.

Offpoint1:
You didn't answer the question, maybe you didn't get it.
Read it again.

Kobojunkie:
I did answer you. You think there ought to be different punishments meted out for different conditions as you expressed, but obviously God does not agree with you that is why He chooses to have it His way. All those who do not believe in God and all those who do not even know of God simply cease to exist upon death.

Offpoint1:
LOL, if that's your own point of view or believe... I have nothing against you.

John 3 vs 16 (ERV)
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16. “For God so loved the world,[i] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
18. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
19. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
20. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
21. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

Kingsean:
Bros u have no point. Its a general issue. Every religion is guilty of this. I have read the the quran severally and i know what I'm saying. Even the Muslims believe that heaven does not belong to unbelievers. Go and read the quran. You'll understand better. Its a general problem not just with christians

livingchrist:
Today alot of humans still reject the knowledge of God either by atheism or science, for example how do you explain the creation of life as a work of chance? How do you come to terms where they attributed that the creation made itself? It was same thing during the days of our fire fathers, they attributed the work of creation as that of a animals, stones, water, gold, silver etc

livingchrist:
But their punishment will be less than those, who today inspite of the teaching of Christ still continue in darkness.

livingchrist:
Christ death applies not just only to people today but also for all those before Christ however, these are people who lived their lives in faith in God's plan of salvation.

Offpoint1:
Until you gimme a non religious view of God judgment method, until then I have my views of things.

God created humans, he didn't create black, white, brown, yellow, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or atheist... All these are earthly things we invented. Adam and Eve weren't described as Christians or Muslims, nor black or white.

So when He not judge them based on the ground religion, tribe or beliefs.

He'll judge them according to their works.

Ihedinobi3:
I think you misunderstood me. Not only is it not a Christian's job to change your mind or your view of things, I personally don't care what your view of things is.

I only thought that you should know that as far as your question in the OP goes, you have been completely answered. You don't have to believe what you have been told. If you do, it would be good for you. If you don't, it would be bad for you. But it is entirely up to you what you want to believe, not up to anybody else.

So, again, your position is not what the Bible teaches, so Christians who believe the Bible don't believe it.

When you say that you want a non-religious view, I'm not sure what you think you mean. The question you asked is of necessity a religious one, so how can the answer not be religious too? But, no matter, you are absolutely free to believe whatever you want.

Kobojunkie:
What has atheism and evolutionary ideas to do with what was asked here?
What punishment do you speak of?
Jesus Christ NEVER said the above. God, Himself, NEVER said anything of the sort. So where do you get this idea from?

livingchrist:
Atheism simply disregard the works of God in other to deny God's existence.
Evolutionary ideas are ways people developed in other to do away with the idea of God.
I speak of the punishment for sin,

livingchrist:
Jesus said any one who believe on him will have eternal life, it does not matter what time.
The question is, who is christ?, what is his mission? What does it mean to believe in Christ?
There are people who looked forward to the coming of Jesus even before he was born, those people saw Christ by faith and believed on him read hebrews.
They saw Christ by faith because God revealed it to them.
God himself preached to Abraham and it was written that Abraham believed in God and it was counted to him for righteousness.
Christ death and resurrection was the fulfillment of what they hoped for, which came to pass after they were all dead. Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, moses, david and all saint were all saved by the faith in the coming messiah although the revelation at that time was a mystery nevertheless they all believed and became righteous men and women.

Kobojunkie:
This is not a point of view that I express here. This is the Truth according to the Bible God Himself.

God said it in the Bible when He warned Adam not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. God did not lie. He repeated the very same after Adam's fall that he, Adam, would go on to die and return back to dust. Since Adam never ate of the Tree of Life(eternal), it meant Adam's soul was not eternal and so there was no way for Him to live on after death anyways. God even repeated it again in Ezekiel 18 when He, God, swore that by His name, the soul that sins must die - cease at the end

When Jesus Christ arrived with Eternal life in the new Covenant, He was clear about how only those who accept Him can get Eternal life that is Him. He, Jesus Christ, did in fact warn that only those who obeyed Him would end up in Heaven. Basically, eternal life is not assurance for life in Heaven. Those who choose Jesus Christ but refuse to obey His commandments are the ones who will end up spending that eternity in Hell's fire. This is all according to what Jesus Christ Himself taught.

John, the apostle, in the Gospel of John, did teach this too. But many gloss over the importance of what is said in that verse above, so they can instead push their lies at people, tacking on "in the name of God" to it all when they do so.

Offpoint1:
You're still giving Christian view... If you were a Muslim will you believe what you just typed or the Bible verses you referenced? Answer is NO

Offpoint1:
The Bible is the word of God to Christians
And
Quran is the word of God to Muslims.
God did not create divided humans, our division is by ourselves.
I've chosen to find God nature through his creations and not through whatever means any human will tell me.

Offpoint1:
There will be resurrection of the just and unjust...

Offpoint1:
Whether you choose to believe in God existence or not... Or you were never aware of existence, on that day you'll be resurrected to answers for your works.

Offpoint1:
Being a Muslim or Christian will not give you edge above anyone on that day, you'll answer for your dids.

Offpoint1:
The dead your talking about is dead every human will experience as an inheritance curse from their fore parents.

Offpoint1:
Remember there's different between punishment and curse.

Kobojunkie:
What has the quran to do with what was asked of you here?

Kingsean:
Read through. Didn't i mention christians too? Seems u have come to defend the quran

Kobojunkie:
Well, I tried approaching God through several different routes myself and was only able to find Him after trying to do exactly what Jesus Christ said, so obviously I give you the Jesus Christ approach and view.
OK
Then you should not have a problem telling us then where in God's creatioln do you get this idea that there will be a resurrection of the Just and unjust from?
Where in your choice to find God through His creations do you get this idea or belief of yours that we will all be resurrected to answer for our works?
Where do these ideas of yours, about what God will do, come from?
What inheritance curse? What fore parents?
Ok. So where does your ideas about there existing difference between curses and punishment come from?

Offpoint1:
If you want to know, listen to nature...
If you don't possess that power or don't know how to discover, then I leave you to your belive.