₦airaland Forum

sonmvayina:
Humans are imperfect by default....

budaatum:
Very imperfect indeed. Like mud really. Until the breathe of God is breathed into it.

LordReed:
Exactly.

The three of you posit that humans are imperfect.
Given the differing beliefs you hold, are you sure you mean the same thing?

If every human is imperfect, there must be a perfect human to serve as a benchmark of “perfection”.

What is human perfection?

Who is an example of a perfect human who makes other humans imperfect in comparison?

sonmvayina:
You are still not getting it..both the breathe and the mud is what is called human soul...without the breathe, it is just dust. It is the breathe that brought the dust to life(a living soul).

When the breathe(spirit or Nerphesh) leaves back to God, the body experiences what we refer to as death...

I think it is indeed as you say, "It is the breathe that brought the dust to life(a living soul)" .

The mud is the "just dust", and the breathe of God is life breathed into the mud to create the human being with its soul which makes humans conscient. When conscience leaves the body it returns to dust.

Martian:
The three of you posit that humans are imperfect.
Given the differing beliefs you hold, are you sure you mean the same thing?

If every human is imperfect, there must be a perfect human to serve as a benchmark of “perfection”.

What is human perfection?

Who is an example of a perfect human who makes other humans imperfect in comparison?

I am sure we do mean the same thing.

Perfection is an idea, a journey that humans will always be on. As far as I am concerned there has never been a perfect human nor is it likely there ever will be.

budaatum:
I think it is indeed as you say, "It is the breathe that brought the dust to life(a living soul)" .

The mud is the "just dust", and the breathe of God is life breathed into the mud to create the human being with its soul which makes humans conscient. When conscience leaves the body it returns to dust.

Yea....

Martian:
The three of you posit that humans are imperfect.
Given the differing beliefs you hold, are you sure you mean the same thing?

If every human is imperfect, there must be a perfect human to serve as a benchmark of “perfection”.

What is human perfection?

That's like saying a benchmark must exist before the idea of perfection can exist.

I do not think our beliefs get in the way of our individual ideas of perfection at all. Though they, both our ideas and beliefs, may differ widely, we will at least agree on the basics of don't kill, don't lie, don't covet your neighbours goods and don't be stupid, and only our imperfection limits the benchmark we choose to serve us.

Martian:
Who is an example of a perfect human who makes other humans imperfect in comparison?

I got this question in my head since yesterday, wondering who would be the best President for Nigeria after Buhari, and came up with Dangote as my perfect, despite all the shadiness that got him where he is.

This is why benchmarks for perfection are often mythical figures. We see such an idea played out in the Bible in numerous "perfect humans", the idea being, humans consume lots of it and create a benchmark for themselves from all they know.

Martian:
The three of you posit that humans are imperfect.
Given the differing beliefs you hold, are you sure you mean the same thing?

If every human is imperfect, there must be a perfect human to serve as a benchmark of “perfection”.

What is human perfection?

Who is an example of a perfect human who makes other humans imperfect in comparison?

Human have the ability and capacity to make choices...they can make the wrong ones. Spirits dont have that luxury. They only do what God tells them to do...

There is no perfect human. There is no righteous man who never sined. God said to confess and forsake our sins, and he will forgive us....2nd chromicles 7:14

LordReed:
I am sure we do mean the same thing.

Perfection is an idea, a journey that humans will always be on. As far as I am concerned there has never been a perfect human nor is it likely there ever will be.

I understand that perfection is an idea to wit the ideal state, condition, or quality of a particular object (human or otherwise. A brick that meets all required measurements is perfect compared to one that does not meet all required measurement, or a human that meets certain specified qualities is perfect compared to one that doesn't.

If perfection is a journey, there must be a destination because a journey without destination is wandering. If you say it's a journey that never ends, is perfection on a continuum? If it's on a continuum, who has achieved the highest level of perfection?

e.g. Pounded Yam. If one were to prepare pounded yam, there is a continuum of texture that will be achieved when we can say the "pounded yam is perfect" and anything beyond/below that upper/lower band of that continuum is imperfect.

sonmvayina:
What do you naturally feel at esse with? What are you drawn to...i mean your nstural passion...work on it...your success lies in it..

Well,I wanna do rap but I can't afford studio production.
Can you do anything about that?
I won't forget whatever benevolence.
Eminem started from somewhere.

sonmvayina:
Natural is when you release your sperm into your babe or wifes virgina and after some months a baby starts kicking in her womb.

Dark is yahoo boys using somebodys underwear to become rich..

Reproduction is magic to you .
Considering Yahoo boys,I don't think there are beings behind the things they are able to do.
There are tools but there are no beings.

HellVictorinho:
Well,I wanna do rap but I can't afford studio production.
Can you do anything about that?
I won't forget whatever benevolence.
Eminem started from somewhere.

Drop your digit...

budaatum:
That's like saying a benchmark must exist before the idea of perfection can exist.

I should have said "If every human is imperfect, there must be an ideal human to serve as a benchmark of “ human perfection” or attributes of perfection that will serve as benchmarks or instances of the idea.

budaatum:
That's like saying a benchmark must exist before the idea of perfection can exist.

The idea of perfection is dependent on a rational agent (sensible human?) ascribing an ideal state to an object unless we go by the platonist forms. If we go by the platonist forms, then we can say humans are imperfect. But I don't assume Somna and Lord subscribe to platonist forms.

budaatum:
I do not think our beliefs get in the way of our individual ideas of perfection at all. Though they, both our ideas and beliefs, may differ widely, we will at least agree on the basics of don't kill, don't lie, don't covet your neighbours goods and don't be stupid, and only our imperfection limits the benchmark we choose to serve us.

Would you kill a dictator, fascist or nazi with plans for a "final solution" for Nigerians?
Christmas just passed. Would you lie to a child about Father Christmas, Santa Claus, Rudolph etc)?
Would you lie to save a person's life if you don't agree with the reason/morality for the imminent execution?
What if you covet your neighbor's Corvette, then you purchase your own Corvette?
Buda thinks a lot of the people on Nairaland are stupid. What if their stupidity is because of limited mental acuity by way of genetics and environment?
Are the mentally handicapped stupid? If stupidity is imperfection, can they ever approach "perfection" no matter how far they journey?

budaatum:
I got this question in my head since yesterday, wondering who would be the best [/b]President for Nigeria after Buhari, and came up with Dangote as my [b]perfect, despite all the shadiness that got him where he is.

There is a slight difference between best and perfect.
e.g. There is no perfect 100m sprint time but there is a best 100m sprint time. Hussein Bolt has the best 100m time of 9.59 seconds but there is no perfect 100 sprint time of x seconds that would make 9.59 seconds imperfect.

You can conceive of a perfect President of Nigeria and also the best President of Nigeria. So Dangote can be the best despite his shadiness considering the shadiness of others like him, and without his shadiness he will be perfect as long as you have element x(s) of what perfection entails like you did above.

budaatum:
[b]This is why benchmarks for perfection are often mythical figures. [/b]We see such an idea played out in the Bible in numerous "perfect humans", the idea being, humans consume lots of it and create a benchmark for themselves from all they know.

Do you mean that the mythical are benchmarks for perfection or certain character traits of mythical figures are benchmarks for perfection?

e.g. Is David a benchmark for perfection or is David's bravery against Goliath a benchmark for perfection?
e.g. Is Moremi a benchmark for perfection or is her utilitarian selflessness a benchmark for perfection?

sonmvayina:
Drop your digit...

GT Bank
0422078934
Please,notify me after sending it.
Thanks.

sonmvayina:
Human have the ability and capacity to make choices...they can make the wrong ones.

This implies perfection is determined by human ability to make choices. Choices about what specifically?
e.g. I can make a choice to eat eba and spicy beef stew before bedtime instead of something light and more bland like eko and honey.
e.g. I can make a choice to shoot and kill someone approaching me menacingly with a knife or I can wait to for the person to get close enough to determine intent thereby risking my own life
e.g. A human sovereign can tax a religious organization or can make the religious organization non-exempt.

Which of the above has to do with perfection>

sonmvayina:
Spirits dont have that luxury. They only do what God tells them to do...

I don't know what this means.

sonmvayina:
There is no perfect human. There is no righteous man who never sined. God said to confess and forsake our sins, and he will forgive us....2nd chromicles 7:14

I don't know what this means.

Martian:
I understand that perfection is an idea to wit the ideal state, condition, or quality of a particular object (human or otherwise. A brick that meets all required measurements is perfect compared to one that does not meet all required measurement, or a human that meets certain specified qualities is perfect compared to one that doesn't.

If perfection is a journey, there must be a destination because a journey without destination is wandering. If you say it's a journey that never ends, is perfection on a continuum? If it's on a continuum, who has achieved the highest level of perfection?

e.g. Pounded Yam. If one were to prepare pounded yam, there is a continuum of texture that will be achieved when we can say the "pounded yam is perfect" and anything beyond/below that upper/lower band of that continuum is imperfect.

You surmise correctly, it is a continuum, it most likely will not terminate because the idea of what perfection is and will continue to metamorphose. In that case no human can claim a "highest level". We can certainly look up to people who have gone further than us on that journey.

LordReed:
You surmise correctly, it is a continuum, it most likely will not terminate because the idea of what perfection is and will continue to metamorphose. In that case no human can claim a "highest level". We can certainly look up to people who have gone further than us on that journey.

If Perfection is subject to metamorphosis, then it itself is not perfect. It would be better if you said, attributes or ideas of what perfection is are being discovered. But that would make you a Platonist. And if you go platonist, it follows that is an ideal form of Imperfection if there ideal form of Perfection.

Who are some of these people who have gone further than us?

What are the ideas of perfection they display?

If no one can reach perfection, why call any one imperfect?

Shouldn’t you posit gradations of perfection?

Martian:
If Perfection is subject to metamorphosis, then it itself is not perfect. It would be better if you said, attributes or ideas of what perfection is are being discovered. But that would make you a Platonist.

But that exactly what I said:

the idea of what perfection is and will continue to metamorphose

Who are some of these people who have gone further than us?

Mandela and Gandhi are 2 examples that quickly come to mind, there are others.

What are the ideas of perfection they display?

The commitment to the idea that all men should have equal opportunity and that there is no superior race.

If no one can reach perfection, why call any one imperfect?

Shouldn’t you posit gradations of perfection?

True but this is the semantics we are used to. I do agree, we should call it gradations of perfection.

Martian:
This implies perfection is determined by human ability to make choices. Choices about what specifically?
e.g. I can make a choice to eat eba and spicy beef stew before bedtime instead of something light and more bland like eko and honey.
e.g. I can make a choice to shoot and kill someone approaching me menacingly with a knife or I can wait to for the person to get close enough to determine intent thereby risking my own life
e.g. A human sovereign can tax a religious organization or can make the religious organization non-exempt.

Which of the above has to do with perfection>



I don't know what this means.




I don't know what this means.

Yes, what i mean is that as human, we are faced with making decisions. In other to guide us in our decisions God gave us his Torah. The ultimate aim like i said is ensuring peace. If your life is being threthened, nature demands that you defend your self. Not turn the other cheek.
Thats what wisdom is all about..

HellVictorinho:
GT Bank
0422078934
Please,notify me after sending it.
Thanks.

I will save it..it will be in the new year, before the end of january..i am trying to deal with my dads kidney situation now...

LordReed:
But that exactly what I said:

the idea of what perfection is and will continue to metamorphose



Mandela and Gandhi are 2 examples that quickly come to mind, there are others.



The commitment to the idea that all men should have equal opportunity and that there is no superior race.



True but this is the semantics we are used to. I do agree, we should call it gradations of perfection.

I think it's perfect when it's perfect to you.
The perfection of something (abstract or material) is dependent on your assessment of it.
Therefore,if I say XYZ is perfect,it means I'm totally satisfied with its nature.
If you say it's not,then you're not totally satisfied.
In your absence,it is neither perfect nor imperfect.
In your absence,it is anything which is yet-to-be identified as this or that.

sonmvayina:
I will save it..it will be in the new year, before the end of january..i am trying to deal with my dads kidney situation now...

LOL.
I hope your dad recovers soon.
You're really generous.

HellVictorinho:
I think it's perfect when it's perfect to you.
The perfection of something (abstract or material) is dependent on your assessment of it.
Therefore,if I say XYZ is perfect,it means I'm totally satisfied with its nature.
If you say it's not,then you're not totally satisfied.
In your absence,it is neither perfect nor imperfect.
In your absence,it is anything which is yet-to-be identified as this or that.

True. Which is why perfection will remain an idea.

sonmvayina:
I will save it..it will be in the new year, before the end of january..i am trying to deal with my dads kidney situation now...

Sad to hear. I hope he recovers, best wishes.

LordReed:
Sad to hear. I hope he recovers, best wishes.

Thanks..he sure will

HellVictorinho:
LOL.
I hope your dad recovers soon.
You're really generous.

Thanks..thats all we are created for..to be there for each other. No wahala.

LordReed:
You surmise correctly, it is a continuum, it most likely will not terminate because the idea of what perfection is and will continue to metamorphose. In that case no human can claim a "highest level". We can certainly look up to people who have gone further than us on that journey.

So with this your definition or viewpoint, you'll say the OT was perfect, then the NT a metamorphosed perfection or what?

LordReed:
True. Which is why perfection will remain an idea.

Or a view.
But I think there are cases where the perfect is determined by the superiority of something or someone's ability to perform an activity.
In other words,if the person gets the opportunity to record a rap song and he delivers deeper punchlines, deeper rhymes and deeper wordplay in the presence of the befitting instrumentals,then he or she has to be called the rapper that does perfect rap.
If he or she always does it like that,then he or she has to be called the perfect one amongst the greatest rappers in the absence of ignorance.

HellVictorinho:
Or a view.
But I think there are cases where the perfect is determined by the superiority of something or someone's ability to perform an activity.
In other words,if the person gets the opportunity to record a rap song and he delivers deeper punchlines, deeper rhymes and deeper wordplay in the presence of the befitting instrumentals,then he or she has to be called the rapper that does perfect rap.
If he or she always does it like that,then he or she has to be called the perfect one amongst the greatest rappers in the absence of ignorance.

When Kurtis Blow was the biggest name in the rap game you could have called him perfect. Then came the likes of Snoop Dog, Biggie and Tupac, who you'd also call perfect. Future generations will have their own rap stars they'd call perfect. There will never be an end to what is considered perfection even though they'd all be different from one another.

LordReed:
When Kurtis Blow was the biggest name in the rap game you could have called him perfect. Then came the likes of Snoop Dog, Biggie and Tupac, who you'd also call perfect. Future generations will have their own rap stars they'd call perfect. There will never be an end to what is considered perfection even though they'd all be different from one another.

Exactly.
The onus is on the rapper that is recording for the first time to show that his or her perfection is the real one by spitting fire that can destroy the rap achievements of any rapper dead or alive or yet-to-be-born.
That's what I plan to do.
I am gonna set the world ablaze with bars of brutality or/and wordplay that's deeper than the deepest ocean.
You will get thought--provoking rhetorical questions towards a deeper philosophy.
I will be rapping about life with nothing but creativity.
There will be rhymes in the absence of inferiority.
I will make Jay-Z look poor by the flow of something that's hotter than Beyonce.
What's going on?
I'm just having fun.
What's number one?
I shouldn't please everyone.

LordReed:
But that exactly what I said:

the idea of what perfection is and will continue to metamorphose perfection.

The idea of perfection is set in stone as previously defined in this thread. The only thing that can metamorphosize are the attributes required to call an object perfect.

e.g. Soccer Ball.

The soccer ball Pele kicked around in 1958 was perfect for its purpose due to technological limitations at the time.

The soccer ball Roberto Carlos scored the free kick with in 1998 was perfect for its purpose due to technological limitations at the time.

Perfection did not metamorphose between 1958 and 1998, but the attributes required to call a soccer ball perfect changed.

LordReed:
Mandela and Gandhi are 2 examples that quickly come to mind, there are others.

Why do they quickly come to mind?

LordReed:
The commitment to the idea that all men should have equal opportunity and that there is no superior race.

That’s just common sense for any one who views humanity as one specie trying their best to survive all over the globe. Your definition would make me perfect. Even more perfect than Gandhi, who went to South Africa and called the African folks “kaffir”.

LordReed:
True but this is the semantics we are used to. I do agree, we should call it gradations of perfection.

Now, if we allow that this human perfection should be ranked by gradations, we can say some humans are imperfect because they have not reached the lower bound of perfection.


When can one know that one has crossed the boundary of imperfection and is now in the perfection continuum?

sonmvayina:
Yes, what i mean is that as human, we are faced with making decisions. In other to guide us in our decisions God gave us his Torah.

“Torah, in Judaism, in the broadest sense, the substance of divine revelation to Israel, the Jewish people: God’s revealed teaching or guidance for humankind. The meaning of “Torah” is often restricted to signify the first five books of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament), also called the Law (or the Pentateuch, in Christianity). These are the books traditionally ascribed to Moses, the recipient of the original revelation from God on Mount Sinai.”

I’m not jewish, so why would I venerate their culture and mythology by subscribing to the asinine notion that this so called god (creator of the universe?) chose them as a conduit to humankind. I don’t view my cultural myths as fact, so what makes Jews so special that I will view their psychotic idea of god and other myth as fact?

I know you try to reconcile the above by claiming Igbos are Jews, and that there are similarities between the precious Torah and Odinani. Food for thought, you will never see a Jew claiming Odinani, and why did your god chose the Torah instead of Odinani?

I work with a jewish fella, should I start looking at him as some sort of special human whose culture was chosen by the so called creator of the universe?

sonmvayina:
Yes, what i mean is that as human, we are faced with making decisions. In other to guide us in our decisions God gave us his Torah.

“But Moses was furious with all the generals and captains[a] who had returned from the battle.

15 “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. 16 “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the Lord at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the Lord’s people. 17 So kill all the boys and all the women who have had intercourse with a man. 18 Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.“

Reading this passage, it’s no wonder the Christians had no problem turning the Jew god into a virgin impregnating cuckholder. Rape the young girls after murdering their families. Your precious Torah.

sonmvayina:
The ultimate aim like i said is ensuring peace. If your life is being threthened, nature demands that you defend your self. Not turn the other cheek.
Thats what wisdom is all about..

The idea of gods chosen people and your precious torah damn sure don’t ensure peace. You have the Jews in Palestine who insists god gave them the land and bigoted whites In America who think the Bible is real history and white Jesus would come take them to heaven once the Jews build some temple and take over all of Palestine.

Martian:
The idea of perfection is set in stone as previously defined in this thread. The only thing that can metamorphosize are the attributes required to call an object perfect.

e.g. Soccer Ball.

The soccer ball Pele kicked around in 1958 was perfect for its purpose due to technological limitations at the time.

The soccer ball Roberto Carlos scored the free kick with in 1998 was perfect for its purpose due to technological limitations at the time.

Perfection did not metamorphose between 1958 and 1998, but the attributes required to call a soccer ball perfect changed.

I didn't write "the idea of perfection", I wrote "the idea of what perfection is". That idea will continue to metamorphose just as you have outlined with your example.

Why do they quickly come to mind?

Because I like them and they inspire me.

That’s just common sense for any one who views humanity as one specie trying their best to survive all over the globe. Your definition would make me perfect. Even more perfect than Gandhi, who went to South Africa and called the African folks “kaffir”.

It is common sense for you because you got born into a society where men like Mandela and Gandhi fought for that idea. You have acquired their perfection and so must now strive for something else.

Now, if we allow that this human perfection should be ranked by gradations, we can say some humans are imperfect because they have not reached the lower bound of perfection.


When can one know that one has crossed the boundary of imperfection and is now in the perfection continuum?

If a person is engaged in acts that significantly hurt other humans and our shared biome then they very low on the perfection continuum. Since we have eliminated the word imperfect then there is no boundary of imperfection to speak of.

LordReed:
I didn't write "the idea of perfection", I wrote "the idea of what perfection is". That idea will continue to metamorphose just as you have outlined with your example.

My example showed that the idea of perfection is does not change. The idea of what the attributes needed to call an object perfect is what changed.

So there is a difference between the idea of what perfection, and the idea of what soccer ball perfection is. Perfection did not change in my example, attributes of the ball changed.

Pele would have looked at the ball in 1958 and called its state, condition and quality perfect, and Roberto Carlos would have looked at the ball in 1998 and called its state, condition, and quality perfect. The only changes are attributes of the ball.

LordReed:
Because I like them and they inspire me.

It is common sense for you because you got born into a society where men like Mandela and Gandhi fought for that idea. You have acquired their perfection and so must now strive for something else.

No, neither contributed to the views I espouse or fought for that ideas (maybe Mandela?) and I’m not impressed by neither them. “...acquired their perfection......” is meaningless. Besides, I thought you cant acquire perfection anyway. It seems they are “perfect” because you like them and they inspire you, and that is valid considering the meaning or idea of perfection. They have qualities you find ideal.

LordReed:
If a person is engaged in acts that significantly hurt other humans and our shared biome then they very low on the perfection continuum. Since we have eliminated the word imperfect then there is no boundary of imperfection to speak of.

If we eliminate imperfection, everyone’s perfect since the continuum doesn’t provide for a upper or lower bound. In that case, an indiscriminate logger is just a little bit more perfect than a poacher. A poacher is a little bit more perfect than a rapist. A rapist is a little bit more perfect than a serial killer. And a serial killer is a little bit more perfect than a mass murderer.