Agbegbaorogboye:

You should take ur own advice instead.
So unfortunate your Mohamed was tutored by Coptic Christians and he also extended the fable for you his followers. There's nothing more unfortunate than someone deceiving over a billion people.
Sad

leksite120:
See how you're embarrassing yourself, learn before you talk not what you just pick and hear, Muhammad wasn't taught by any Christian, he was inspired. Even if he got taught as u claim, it'll be from a Jew cos Jews were much then than the Christians and he associated with Jews than Christians.
Also, don't deviate from what I asked u, who was the mother of Mary

Agbegbaorogboye:


The mother of Mary is not known neither is it important.
Since you're into unearthing mothers, you can furnish us the name of Abraham's mother, Joseph's mother and even Adam's mother!!
Since you're not aware Muhammed was taught by a Christian as well as a Jew, I wonder what exactly you know

leksite120:
Mary's mother was known to us maybe not u, u don't have to accept that. We've records of past prophets, from Noah to lot, to Abraham to Moses, to Jesus and and all others which was revealed through our prophet.
Muhammad wasn't taught, he was inspired.

Agbegbaorogboye:


Lol. Muhammad was inspired. How glorious!! Inspired by old testament texts which he managed to bungle I guess

Mary's supposed mother was mentioned by James in his fable. Is it any wonder the same story he wrote about Mary is the same one regurgitated by your "inspired" Muhammad?
I can prove to you how James'story was a fable. I wonder if you can prove Muhammad's version is different from James though.

leksite120:
They're all Abrahamovic religion, the fact that they've almost similar stories isn't surprising. Bible also has a lot of similar stories about Abraham , Moses and other prophets with Torah of Jews. So I guess, I should also say Bible copied the Torah?
Qur'an has stories of some past prophets which are not even in the bible, a lot. Not only Muhammad was inspired, all other prophets was. Well, since you're a Christian, it shouldn't be surprising that you don't believe in Qur'an story of Mary's mother, since it's not in your bible. Meanwhile, you believe in Qur'an story of Mary herself because it authenticate the one of your bible, isn't that hypocritical.

Since , you don't believe in her mother's story, that means Mary's story of being pious must also be false .

Agbegbaorogboye:


Of course the Bible copied the Torah. Has anyone ever disputed that?
It's the Muslims who claim a text which was commonly in use by two major religions which were gaining some foothold in the Arabian peninsula then was suddenly revealed to their prophet.
Can you mention the prophets which are not in the Bible? I'm interested.
I don't believe the Quran story of Mary nor Jesus which was a direct copy of the text of James as I've told you. The accounts given by James and adopted by Muhammad are fables unfortunately.
Mary was pious. But the assertion that she remained a Virgin after the birth of Christ is illogical not to mention being a lie.

leksite120:
How can u prove the Qur'an story of Jesus was a direct copy of James version. That it contains some similar stories doesn't means it was copied, and it's not even all the same, there are differences. There's full story of Mary in the hadith and in the Qur'an so there's a lil difference.

Also, there are more than 24,000 prophets and there are 24 popular ones among the popular ones which the bible didn't account for was 'salih' , he has a lil story in the Qur'an, so his name was mentioned.

GOVERNMENT2:
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CYRUS AND ALEXANDER D’ GREAT

Isaiah 45 vs 1-13 (ERV)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. This is what the Lord said to Cyrus, his chosen king[a]: “I took you by your right hand to help you defeat nations, to strip other kings of their power, and to open city gates that will not be closed again.
2. I will go in front of you and make the mountains flat. I will break the city gates of bronze and cut the iron bars on the gates.
3. I will give you the wealth that is stored in secret places. I will give you those hidden treasures. Then you will know that I am the Lord, the God of Israel, who calls you by name.
4. I do this for my servant, Jacob. I do it for my chosen people, Israel. Cyrus, I am calling you by name. You don’t know me, but I know you.
5. I am the Lord, the only God. There is no other God except me. I put your clothes on you, but still, you don’t know me.
6. I am doing this so that everyone will know that I am the only God. From the east to the west, people will know that I am the Lord and that there is no other God.
7. I made the light and the darkness. I bring peace, and I cause trouble. I, the Lord, do all these things.
8. “May the clouds in the skies above pour goodness on the earth like rain. May the earth open up to let salvation grow. And may goodness grow with that salvation, which I, the Lord, created.
9. “Look at these people! They are arguing with the one who made them. Look at them argue with me. They are like pieces of clay from a broken pot. Clay does not say to the one moulding it, ‘Man, what are you doing?’ Things that are made don’t have the power to question the one who makes them.
10. A father gives life to his children, and they cannot ask, ‘Why are you giving me life?’ They cannot question their mother and ask, ‘Why are you giving birth to me?’”
11. The Lord God is the Holy One of Israel. He created Israel, and he says, “My children, you asked me to show you a sign.
You told me to show you what I have done.[d]
12. I made the earth, and I created the people on it. I used my own hands to make the skies. And I command all the armies in the sky.[e]
13. I was right to give power to Cyrus,[f] and I will make his work easy. He will rebuild my city, and he will set my people free without bribes or payment.” The Lord All-Powerful said this.

Agbegbaorogboye:


May I ask how come all the prophets recognise by your Quran all happen to be Jewish? Only Muhammad happens to be the non-Jew out of all the prophets.
Can you also share what qualifies one to be a prophet in Islam?
The fact is that there's no significance attached to Muhammad being an Arabian. You can expose the significance for us why God will suddenly abandon the Jews from whom he hitherto chose all his prophets and decided to delight himself in a pagan Arab.
That mystery has never been exposed by Islam.

As for James's fable account of Mary. I hope you know it's older than the Quran so while flawed, it follows logic that Bahira the Coptic Christian who taught Muhammad taught him the apocryphal version which the Quran is very similar too. There's a good reason to believe if he met a gnostic, his account would have followed their beliefs.

There are more than 24,000 Jewish prophets. The Bible only mention the popular ones. I'll check out your salih

Kobojunkie:
The same God you supposedly speak of chose Cyrus, the Great, a man who did not know Him, and with no history of ever serving the God of Israel, to deliver His people from slavery and restore to them their land and belongings.

Kobojunkiee:

Cyrus was an unbeliever who, according to the prophet Isaiah, was chosen by God.

Alexander, however, no clue!

Not all charitoō is given by God( humans give favor to other humans) and not all charitoō is unmerited ( eg Joseph found favour in the eyes of Potiphar). The choice of “grace” is not just a perspective i have taken, it's part of the consistent theme of the Bible, atleast when it comes to God and His dealings with humanity.( Personally, I don't really use the word "unmerited favour" as It's one of those words that have been over Christianised over the years and can give modern readers a different mental picture. A better way of understanding the motif is to think of it as "God is always way more generous than people deserve". Simply "favor" or "grace" is more of a better translation).
As I mentioned in my earlier post the word charitoō though used only twice in the NT, it's Hebrew equivalent ḥên is used quite alot in the old testament and also the exact statement "to find favour in the eyes of someone" is a standard Hebrew saying, so it's a word and concept that is well accounted for and we'll understood.
The root word "charis" itself is also usually translated as grace, kindness, loving-kindness etc. It also says nothing about the character of the person it's being bestowed upon if no other information is given but only the attitude of the person doing the bestowing.

This verse is talking about a husband's praise to his wife sir(Prov 31:28).

My good sir, I'm not trying to tear down your write-up as I largely agree with a number of things you said. Just wanted to point out a thing or two in your methodology and conclusions.

GOVERNMENT2:
CYRUS IS THE SAME PROPHET AS ALEXANDER D GREAT. HIS ISLAMIC NAME IS DHUL QARNAYN

Acehart:
Revelation 2:17 To him who overcomes (conquers), I will give to eat of the manna that is hidden, and I will give him a white stone with a new name engraved on the stone.

I was caught between pasting the text above and the parable of The Workers in the Vineyard; but I had to stick with the verse above because of its length. However, I hope to delve into the parable as I go along (maybe it wouldn’t be necessary).

Our race was set forth by our faith in Christ, as the scriptures says, ”For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God” ; our race was sustained by the power of the Spirit as the scripture says: we are “protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time”. So, at what point does our input count when the scriptures says: run [your race] that you may lay hold [of the prize] and make it yours? If we saved by favor unlabored for, is the prize by favor and effort induced?

jamesid29:

The point I was trying to make is this:
Were the people God specifically partnered with sinless or better than the rest of humanity and that's why he chose them? No. As the scriptures say
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
-Romans 3:23‭-‬24 NASB
Did these people also get some things right and record great acts of faith in the one who is faithful? Yes they did and the book Hebrews even has a hall of fame for them.
Today, we are all equally called to be part of this long list of God's partners as we put our trust in God just as those who have gone ahead of us did. It's not because we are inherently better than anyone else, but out of God's immense love for humanity, He has chosen to be faithful to humans that are usually not faithful to him in return "in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us". And by His grace we have made a response of faith in return by putting our trust in the promise of the cross.

jamesid29:

Personally, I don't really use the word "unmerited favour" as It's one of those words that have been over Christianised over the years and can give modern readers a different mental picture. A better way of understanding the motif is to think of it as "God is always way more generous than people deserve".

Acehart: Proverbs 31:1 The words of King Lemuel, the oracle which his mother taught him.

femi4:
:
Proverbs 31 referred to a Family woman with husband and kids

jamesid29:

Maybe you should read the rest of my post in its entirety sir




I think a previous poster has given a good answer to what I think you are trying to drive at


So we are both on the same line of thought, here's Proverbs 31 in it's entirety.

31: The words of King Lemuel. An oracle that his mother taught him:

2 What are you doing, my son?
What are you doing, son of my womb?
What are you doing, son of my vows?
3 Do not give your strength to women,
your ways to those who destroy kings.
4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel,
it is not for kings to drink wine,
or for rulers to take strong drink,
5 lest they drink and forget what has been decreed
and pervert the rights of all the afflicted.
6 Give strong drink to the one who is perishing,
and wine to those in bitter distress;
7 let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.
8 Open your mouth for the mute,
for the rights of all who are destitute.
9 Open your mouth, judge righteously,
defend the rights of the poor and needy.

10 An excellent wife who can find?
She is far more precious than jewels.
11 The heart of her husband trusts in her,
and he will have no lack of gain.
12 She does him good, and not harm,
all the days of her life.
13 She seeks wool and flax,
and works with willing hands.
14 She is like the ships of the merchant;
she brings her food from afar.
15 She rises while it is yet night
and provides food for her household
and portions for her maidens.
16 She considers a field and buys it;
with the fruit of her hands she plants a vineyard.
17 She dresses herself[e] with strength
and makes her arms strong.
18 She perceives that her merchandise is profitable.
Her lamp does not go out at night.
19 She puts her hands to the distaff,
and her hands hold the spindle.
20 She opens her hand to the poor
and reaches out her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of snow for her household,
for all her household are clothed in scarlet.
22 She makes bed coverings for herself;
her clothing is fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates
when he sits among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them;
she delivers sashes to the merchant.
25 Strength and dignity are her clothing,
and she laughs at the time to come.
26 She opens her mouth with wisdom,
and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.
27 She looks well to the ways of her household
and does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children rise up and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:
29 “Many women have done excellently,
but you surpass them all.”
30 Charm is deceitful, and beauty is vain,
but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised.
31 Give her of the fruit of her hands,
and let her works praise her in the gates.

The part we are most interested in starts from verse 10 so I put a break to show the shift in the poem

My question is this sir
On what basis are you making the intertextuality (hyperlink) between this poem and Luke's account of the gospel?

femi4:
The account of Luke and prov 31 are different

Prov 31 refers to a MARRIED woman with husband and kids

Luke stated emphatically that Mary was HIGHLY FAVOURED.

It's there in black and White. The first statement of angel Gabriel reads YOU ARE HIGHLY FAVOURED.

I don't know why we love to link scriptures together without understanding

leksite120:
That God made him a prophet among the Arabs is his wish and he has a reason for that, shouldn't it be a misery also that all prophets are Israelites (note: not Jewish) , the 24000 prophets are Israelites, shouldn't that be a misery itself. For bringing out a prophet from the Arab is his wish.

It's just as saying how come Jesus is authentic since he's the only prophet with a mother and no father. Or should we call Jesus a bastard for that? This thing called religion that we're doing is spiritual (we've to accept what is sent forth for us) so Muhammad being from Arab isn't exceptional.

Nothing qualifies one to be a prophet , it's simply 'chosen' . Nothing else , no race/anything qualifies it.

Kobojunkiee:
I am not sorry to be the one to burst that deluded bubble of yours. Cyrus, the Great, the King of Persia, was a different man from Alexander the Great of Greece.

Agbegbaorogboye:


Let me quickly correct something. That "Jesus has no father" is pure fallacy and one of the confusions Islamists are faced with when they are faced with the personality of Jesus. Jesus was known as the "son of the carpenter" to the Jews (Matt 13:55), his immediate community. Thus, Joseph was regarded as his earthly father and at no time did Joseph deny that relationship. On the other hand, to those of us who have been fortunate to accept him as our saviour, he's the son of God as John 3:16 tells us.
The reason I asked you what qualifies one to be called a prophet in Jewish religion is to educate you on what qualifies one to be called a prophet in the old testament. The word prophet is a combination of two words which losely mean "to tell in advance". In other words, a prophet is sent to tell people of God's mind towards them. Thus for anyone to lay claim to be a prophet, he must speak the message of God. A prophet is not an historian, that belongs to the scribes, nor a leader of worship, that belongs to the priests. His is that of a messenger. God spoke through Jewish prophets to the Jews only. He never spoke to his people through outsiders. Which brings us to the question of who Muhammad's message was really for if he indeed claims to be a prophet.

Acehart:


Hi,

We usually make a significant error when the word “sinner” is only seen from only one perspective. I’d like to use the Cross of Calvary as the reference point: all are counted as sinners before coming to the Cross; but after the Cross, one is no longer tagged a sinner but a righteous one. No sinner has his disposition towards the gospel; but after they believe, their faith is accounted for as righteousness.

When I said Mary wasn’t a sinner, I used it in respect to her disposition- she believed in God’s gospel and it was accounted to her as righteousness.

GOVERNMENT2:
DEUTERONOMY 33:2
AND HE SAID, THE LORD CAME FROM SNAI, AND ROSE UP FROM SEIR UNTO THEM; HE SHINED FORTH FROM MOUNT PARAN AND HE CAME WITH TEN THOUSANDS OF SAINTS: FROM HIS RIGHT HAND WENT FIERY LAW FOR THEM

KINDLY EXPLAIN THIS VERSE PLEASE

Agbegbaorogboye:


In what context if I may ask? Cause I find the verse self-explanatory

GOVERNMENT2:
EXACTLY WHY I ASKED YOU TO BREAK IT DOWN FOR ME

Agbegbaorogboye:

Break it down? You find the grammar to confusing?
A dictionary could be of help rather than I

GOVERNMENT2:
WHY ARE YOU SHYING AWAY FROM THE TRUTH

Agbegbaorogboye:


Let me quickly correct something. That "Jesus has no father" is pure fallacy and one of the confusions Islamists are faced with when they are faced with the personality of Jesus. Jesus was known as the "son of the carpenter" to the Jews (Matt 13:55), his immediate community. Thus, Joseph was regarded as his earthly father and at no time did Joseph deny that relationship. On the other hand, to those of us who have been fortunate to accept him as our saviour, he's the son of God as John 3:16 tells us.
The reason I asked you what qualifies one to be called a prophet in Jewish religion is to educate you on what qualifies one to be called a prophet in the old testament. The word prophet is a combination of two words which losely mean "to tell in advance". In other words, a prophet is sent to tell people of God's mind towards them. Thus for anyone to lay claim to be a prophet, he must speak the message of God. A prophet is not an historian, that belongs to the scribes, nor a leader of worship, that belongs to the priests. His is that of a messenger. God spoke through Jewish prophets to the Jews only. He never spoke to his people through outsiders. Which brings us to the question of who Muhammad's message was really for if he indeed claims to be a prophet.

Agbegbaorogboye:

What truth?

GOVERNMENT2:
WHO WAS THIS PROPHET THAT CAME WITH TEN THOUSANDS OF HOLY ONES (DISCIPLES) AND A FIERY LAW

WHO SHINED FORTH AT MOUNT PARAN AND WHERE IS THIS MOUNT PARAN LOCATED

Agbegbaorogboye:

The verse was referring to God himself not any prophet.
Didn't you see "The Lord" in that verse? Or is Muhammad now Moses' Lord?
That's why I asked you to consult a dictionary