₦airaland Forum

truthman2012:
Firstly, I don't accept any statement you cannot substantiate with scriptural evidence(s). Hadith is said to be the words and deed of Muhammad, now tell the readers by quoting the hadiths that confirm Jubril, allahh or Muhammad healing anybody.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracles_of_Muhammad

Today's muslims say there are miracles in islam, contrary to the quran:

Quran 13: 07
“And the Unbelievers say: "Why
is not a sign sent down to him
from his Lord?" But thou art
truly a warner, and to every
people a guide.”

The people accused Muhammad of not having power for miracles and allahh said he was only a warner and a guide and not a miracle worker. Why did muslims formulate miracles for him?

And they say: "Why are not
miracles sent down to him from
his Lord? Say: "The signs are
only with Allah , and I am only a
plain warner."
Qur'an 29:50

Again, people asked Muhammad why were miracles not sent to him and allahh had to say only him could do miracles and that Muhammad was only a warner, even though we couldn't find any healing by allahh himself.

Different people had different views as to which are signs of God. Allah says that there are signs of His Work everywhere in the universe and within ourselves - this is repeated again and again - and the command to go study the wonders of nature is oft-repeated too. The Quran is the ONLY divine scripture tht encourages man to increase his scientific knowledge, understanding and appreciation.

These non-believers who uttered these statement know nothing about God. Allah does not say that there are no signs - these were not his words. Far from it.

These disbelievers were always asking for signs and signs and signs. If Muhammad (pbuh) always answered their requests without them deserving it - this would beat the purpose of life - which is a test of faith at all fronts.

And they that know not say, 'Why does God not speak to us? Why does a sign (ayatun) not come to us?' So spoke those before them as these men say; their hearts are much alike. Yet We have made clear the signs (bayyanna al-ayati) unto a people who are sure. (2:118)

Not before this didst thou recite any Book, or inscribe it with thy right hand, for then those who follow falsehood would have doubted. Nay; rather it is signs, clear signs (ayatun bayyinatun) IN THE BREASTS of those who have been given knowledge; and none denies Our signs but the evildoers. They say, 'Why have signs (ayatun) not been sent down upon him from his Lord?' Say: 'The signs (al-ayatu) are only with God, and I am only a plain warner.' What, is it not SUFFICIENT for them that We have sent down upon thee the Book that is recited to them? Surely in that is a mercy, and a reminder to a people who believe.29:48-51

Consider this from Mark 8

11The Pharisees came and began to question Jesus. To test him, they asked him for a sign from heaven. 12He sighed deeply and said, "Why does this generation ask for a miraculous sign? I tell you the truth, no sign will be given to it."

The lame excuse by muslims that they don't emphasise miracles is because there is none they can point to as no miracles are happening in mosques or any muslims' gathering.

The Quran has tons of scientific, numerical and literary miracles.

Numerical miracles :http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_index.html

Here are some short videos giving examples for the literary miracle of the Quran:https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLB9DAD6B9EDAEE7BC

As for Ruqya and spiritual healing I have experienced it myself.

Here is one session of Ruqya done in a mosque in Indonesia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5e8En-2fquk

truthman2012:
There is no single record of allah, Jubril or Muhammad healing anybody. Even Muhammad could not be healed by allah. Aisha, Jubril and allah tried their best to rescue Muhammad from death by poison but they could not. This shows allah is not the ALMIGHTY God of the Jews and Christians, who is capable of doing anything.

Not a single record? I'm sorry, man, but why are you trying to prove your ignorance. There are lots of records authenticated ones with multiple of witnesses, for lots of miracles the Prophet (sal) had done. But Muslims dont stress on them, because we cannot see it with our own eyes. We stress on the Quran and its scientific, numerical, mathematical and literary miracles. The Quran can be used for spiritual healing known as Ruqya.

This is a strawman argument. Even if Muhammad (pbuh) died by the effects of that poison, in spite of his prayers, how does that discredit God or His Prophet? No one wants to die (even your Jesus cried out in agony and prayed that this cup be passed). But like all Prophets, they all submit to the will of God. Not my will but yours be done.

Now let us entertain a real argument. Consider this verse:
Mark 16:17-18
17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.

Can we see a video of you consuming poison and then surviving? If not, then you are not believer.

Emusan:
Firstly, the phrase ORIGINAL SIN never appeared in the Holy Scripture but it's a theological word to describe the consequence of what man is passing through today just because of what Adam lost which is HIS UNCORRUPTED NATURE.

Secondly, since we're in the body of Adam when Adam's nature got polluted that's prone to sin and death, that's why MAN DIED TODAY AND CAN SIN.

Thirdly, even your brother agreed that had it been that Adam didn't sin he wouldn't have experienced DEATH and continue to live in Paradise. Now man KNOWS DEATH because Adam sinned.

Lastly, when Adam sinned God provided a way out for man which I may elaborate more as we go on.

This contains the crux of our difference. Yes, the term "original sin" means different things to different people. If it means the forgiven sin of Adam that was predestined as a pretext to have him equal to Iblis,then yes. We all are on earth because God wants to test each and one of us, and make us our own witness to our works. Adam rose above Iblis, because he repented and thus was forgiven for his sin. His sin was not passed down, but the consequences were ... So we the children of Adam must passed through earth and hell to Paradise. If God did not forgive Adam, then he would have destroyed Adam - but that would make it all a wasted effort. So God gave the chance for us all to prove to ourselves that we deserve everlasting life.

But how?

By accepting God and His guidance when it comes and being in a state of submission to God. We can fall in sin, but God would purify us and forgive us. God is Most Merciful

This doctrine is more universal in the sense that our salvation does not hang in belief of any historical event like a crucifiction. Earth was corrupted with death and bloodshed even before Adam was created and God had to purify earth. This doctrine of salvation has remained the same throughout time, and it is not intended unfair to those who have not heard about it. God could have many earths with many intelligent creations all over the universe and not merely one earth (needing one lamb of sacrifice).

Why has God created life and death?

Well, God answers this Question quite simply:

[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving (Mulk 2)

It's true that we have inherited our DNA from our parents but where have we got our souls/spirit?

"O mankind! Be conscious of your Lord, who has created you from one soul (Adam), and out of it created its mate (Eve), and out of the two spread many men and women. And remain conscious of God, in whose name you demand [your rights] from one another, and of these ties of kinship. Verily, God is ever watchful over you!" (Quran 4:1)

Has this being tainted? No.

"When your Lord drew forth from the loins of the children of Adam their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves: ‘Am I not your Lord?’. They said, ‘Yes, we do testify.’ This lest you should say on the Day of Judgement: ‘We were not aware of this.’ "
(Al A’raaf :272)

There's a hadith to make this explicitly clear:


The Prophet (PBUH) reported that Allah said, "I created my servants in the right religion but devils made them go astray". The Prophet (PBUH) also said, "Each child is born in a state of "Fitrah", then his parents make him a Jew, Christian or a Zoroastrian, the way an animal gives birth to a normal offspring. Have you noticed any that were born mutilated?"
(Bukhari and Muslim).

Our natures are all pure and in fact comes from that of God, like an image.

"Then He fashioned him and breathed into him from His ruh; and He gave you (the faculties) of hearing, sight, and feeling. Little thanks you give." (As-Sajdah 32:9)

"When I have fashioned him and breathed into him from My ruh" (Al-Hijr 15:29)

malvisguy212:
1. If you believe that it was God's will for Muhammad to have eaten the poison, along with Bishr, why then did
Muhammad try to get well? Even Gabriel prayed for Muhammad to get better, but Allah didn't answer that prayer either.

Firstly you need to quote ahadith from authentic sources. Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari are the two most authentic sources of ahadith, but ahadith found in books under than the well known canon of 6 or more should be rated by a reputed scholar of the ahadith sciences.

Secondly you shouldnt just copy and paste from anti-Islam sources

Muhammad (pbuh) consumed some bits of the poison but successfully passed this Jewish woman's test when he was informed about it being poisoned. Bishr died from this poisoning, so the Prophet (sal) overturned his initial forgiveness for justice. Four or more years later when his final illness sanked in, the cause of it was unknown. The Prophet (sal) guessed that it must be the long-term effects of the poison, but it was never actually confirmed by revelation. The Prophet (sal) meanwhile in spite of declaring over and over again (like all Prophets before him) that the only knowledge of the unseen he had was from God, and that he didn't have 100% knowledge of the unseen - he still made personal predictions of his demise that year. Everything that happens to us on earth is a test, and this was the final test. God willed to take him away from us this way, but that doesn't mean he has to have a suicidal mindset. He prayed to God and Gabriel prayed to God. God knew what was best.

2.Why did Gabriel not know the will of
Allah? Why would Gabriel pray if Allah
had decided death?

The angels, all of them, declared that "we have no knowledge except that which you (Oh Allah!) has taught us". Gabriel did not know, and the Prophet never requested prayer but the angel was overwhelmed with love that he probably couldn't help himself but supplicate on behalf of the Prophet.

3. Why did Muhammad force the other
Muslims to drink the medicine he was
given? One of them was one of his wives,and she was fasting. He forced her to break her fast and drink the medicine as well. Doesn't this sound vindictive and petty?

Again is that ahadith authenticated or not?

4.Why, when just before his death, did
Muhammad have to utter a curse upon
the Christians and the Jews? Wouldn't it
have been better for Muhammad to pray for guidance for them? This also sounds like a jealous, bitter prayer to Allah. Muhammad prayed for and uttered curses instead of asking Allah to guide people.

These were probably not the last words and probably was never uttered. Read http://islamqa.info/en/45841

But yeah at some point the Prophet (sal) emphasized us not to take his grace as a place of worship like the Jews and Christians did before us to their Prophets.

5. Why would pleurisy, which is a normal infection of the lung membrane, be considered to be from Satan, but being poisoned would not be from Satan?

Again is that hadith authenticated?

Moses knew about his coming death
(Deut 34:1-5). Jesus also knew of His
future death (Mark 8:32, 32). Yet
Muhammad was in the dark until he
himself realized he was going to die.

A lot of other Prophets were in the dark when God took their life away. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was not divinely inspired as to when he'll die but he certainly predicted it. He guessed to Ayesha (rali), after Gabriel revised the Quran twice with him in Ramadan, that it could be his last Ramadan. In his final sermon when he was still healthy he asked everyone to listen more attentively because he feared he won't be amongst them the next year. The verse bringing the news that the religion has been perfected, and that that day Allah has chosen Islam to be the natural religion as a favour to Mankind, surely must have meant that his mission has drawn to a close

Paul the apostle was bitten by a poisonous snake (Acts 28:1-6), but Paul
suffered no ill effects from the bite. God
had his hand of protection on Paul, to
finish the work laid out for him.

Well how many times did God plan over the plan of those who tried to assasinate his Prophet (sal)? How many times did the Muslims come close to total annihilation only for God to turn the tides.

Battles are something lost. Doesn't mean the war is lost.

Muhammad died so suddenly that there was confusion as to would be the next ruler of the Islamic state. To this day,part of that confusion remains. The
Islamic world is divided in part because
of this issue (Shia vs. Sunni). Wouldn't
Allah, who abhors division within the
Ummah have protected Muhammad
long enough to insure that his state
remain unified, and a clearly defined
successor be named?

There are thousands of ahadith, authenticated reliable ahadith, that narrate in much details the events of and what would lead to the end times. If God had wanted he would have had no sects, but even that was predicted. Earth is no Paradise.

Jesus predicted false prophets would
come into the world and mislead many
(Matthew 24:24). Muhammad was such a false prophet. Both Jesus and Moses
knew God face to face, Muhammad only
had a spirit or angel he called "Gabriel"
speaking to him. In the end, even this
angel's prayers were not answered by
Allah. Could it be that this "Gabriel" was
preaching a false religion (Galatians 1:
to Muhammad? Could Gabriel have
been a deceptive demon or Satan
himself?

Muhammad (pbuh) passes all the tests of Prophethood. His prophecies inspired by God are so numerous but have been accurately fulfilled during his lifetime, after it and even now. The Quran is filled with scientific miracles, numerical and mathematical miracles as well as literary "miracles". The 23 year revolution he effected in Arabia has no parallel in history - everything changed.

Consider this: Muhammad (pbuh) is the Prophet without whom the Virgin Mary's name would be continuously blasphemed all around the world by Jews and polytheists. Without whom the Caliphate would not have been established and the Golden Age of Islam not have come to pass. Without the Muhammaddan understanding of the universe and revelation, Europe would have still been in the dark with regards to the place of reason and revelation. If the Muslim way of thinking hadn't influenced some influential figures in the Church (for eg Thomas Aquinas), there wouldn't have been a Renaissance, and there wouldn't have been modern western civilization as we know it. You have to thank Islam for that, in spite of the pathetic state of doom the Muslim world is in today's

Emusan:
Imaging Paul never met the Blessed Messiah and gave a contradictory account of his conversion and I guess that Muhammad also met the Blessed Messiah or Moses, right? Yet his message contradicted both Jesus and Moses.

-Muhammad's teaching contradict the message of Moses
-Muhammad's teaching contradict the message of Jesus Christ
-Muhammad's teaching contradict the message of the Apostles

Paul's teachings and writings contradict the rest of the Gospels. Some Christians are now accepting the fact that there appears to be two Gospels in reality - one for the Jew and one for the Gentiles. The writings of this "saint" contradicts itself at a few places which explains such a big spectrum of views regarding the innermost features of Christian theology (Original Sin or none? Calvism true or false? Israel was replaced or not? Etc)

The teachings of the last and final Messenger does not self-contradict. No one claims that it doesn't contradict the Bible of today. No one claims that the Teacher of the Messenger is the Messiah.

I'm so happy for the @bolds especially the last @bold with @underline because it proves again the point you're trying so hard to cover.
Now let's look at it,
When Adam and Eve allowed Satan to TAINTED their PURE NATURE (NOTE: You're the one who used NATURE). Then EVERY HUMAN BEING came from Adam it means THEY ALL will also SHARE in the TAINTED NATURE OF ADAM.
Unless you want to tell us that Allah destroyed THAT TAINTED NATURE and gave Adam another nature. But if it's the same TAINTED NATURE that every human came from my brother you inherited a TAINTED NATURE from Adam.

Adam purified his nature and God accepted His repentance. Even if Adam passed away with a "tainted nature" that does not mean his children will be born with a similar nature. 1) God does not create souls that are tainted in their origin with sin 2) God does not allow the son to carry the burden of his father (that is terrible injustice).

We don't inherit Sin or kufr, but we might inherit the consequences of it. We are on earth but when we born here we were born in the purest of the pure nature. A baby can die not because of sin, but because of God's will. This baby will not necessarily end up in hell.

Then if sin is not a state, will Adam and Eve will have died in PARADISE if they didn't sin?

If they didn't sin then they would have been in Paradise without death, until the Day of Judgement where everyone will taste death before being recreated.

That's is a pure lie! If Adam had not sinned, he will not be banished out of paradise and death won't have come true or false? Because you can't tell me that Allah has it in mind that Adam will die in the paradise.

You seem to think of death as a punishment. It is not necessarily a punishment. Animals have died even before man was placed on earth. Angels will taste death before being reborn in the Day of Judgement when this whole world is transformed.

Science itself has debunked the claim that death entered the world only when Adam sinned.

I can see figurative indeed. Anyway that's a topic for another day.

You seem to love arguing don't you?

It's just a shame that you can open your mouth to spew this broad day lie.
As you said in the @bold part, can you see your life outside?
This is your previous statement: "The Quran repeats the fact that every soul will taste death. [size=14pt]At the point of division everything (everyone plus everything - all the earths and all the heavens) will be destroyed and only God shall remain. Then the Resurrection, and Judgment."[/size]

From here we can deduce that:
1. It's a believe in ISLAM
2. Everything will be destroyed which earth and HEAVENS (Plural) are part of it
3. Only GOD WILL REMAIN (which then take everything back to when ONLY GOD EXISTED before the creation).

In conclusion it means Muhammad and all Muslims will be destroyed by Allah even after they're being faithful not does this only look ridiculous also the Angels that never disobeyed Allah will also be destroyed.

Now you've change your mouth what a shame.

No I haven't. All the Prophets had or will taste death on earth and then when the Trumpets sounds. This world will be transferred into a new world. This is not because of sin, but simply a transformation. Death occurs to everyone who is not God the Eternal the Absolute.

Jesus will die. Not because he is born of sin, but simply because he is not God.

But Allah will destroy everything (AS ONLY ALLAH WILL REMAIN) before he created them back which means EVERYONE will face the same punishment met for Satan before they were restored back to perfect state.

No, death is not a punishment. Satan will also die plus be resurrected to be tortured for eternity in hell.

And what I'm here to do is to show you that Islamic premise also support the state of Pauline INSPIRED WORDS that "the wages of Sin is death" since it seems that you people don't fully understand this great revealed word of God.

If death was not the result of sin, will Adam and Eve have died IN THE PARADISE if they haven't sinned?



You got it right to some extent.
1. Death is the soul being separated from the body
2. Death is an everlasting state of no life (which is spiritual separation from God's presence eternally due to sin).

Now for it to be "the wages of sin" is that if God didn't rescue us through His provincial sacrifice when the first Adam LOST THE REAL NATURE by allowed it to be TAINTED by Satan by sending the SECOND ADAM who HAS A NEW NATURE to replace the TAINTED NATURE of the first Adam EVERYONE WILL BE IN THE STATE OF NO LIFE which is the second death.

So Jesus died for our sins? OK, so what must I do now? I'm I free to sin for sin is no more? If I should believe in this crucifiction to obtain the license to sin, then isn't it unfair to the aborigines in the middle of the Amazons of this earth who have not heard of this lamb of sacrifie? How could God be the creator of injustice?

Now you can appreciate the point the inspired Apostle Paul is bringing out here even according to Islam no doubt that Adam can't go back to paradise with that TAINTED NATURE, that nature must surely be replaced by Allah WHICH IS NOW A GIFT TO ADAM. So by completing Paul's statement "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord Rom 6:23 you can fully respect his inspired word.

We are ALL born with pure natures. How dare you think of new born babies as being born in sin? Furthermore what about those people before Christ? Those who have not heard of Christ?

Pauline Philosophy is a monstrously unjust,and I marvel at you for ignoring the injustice of the God of St Paul.

Imaging the @bold-was the statement made when Satan went to seduce them or when he didn't bow for Adam

I don't seem to understand what you're asking here, sorry.

But Allah couldn't deny Iblis statement or explain further why Satan was wrong for accusing him with such wild statement instead Allah addressed another issue just unfortunate now that you're the one speaking for Allah what he supposed to have clarified.

Allah doesn't need to answer that and neither do I.
Think more deeply and you'll see why.

No time you can copy and paste it here...

No, you should listen to the entire thing.

But before the reward Adam and ALL FAITHFUL SLAVES including upright Angels will be destroyed by Allah before recreated them back according to you.


Thanks and you're very broad in your understanding.

You're welcome. May God guide you too away from Christianity into the light of the faith of Abraham, whose belief was simple.

Of course Allah can, since he has been doing such but a just God won't destroy A FAITHFUL SERVANTS or ANGELS a Just God will ONLY PUNISH THE WORLD OF SIN.

I killed an ant. Does that mean that ant died because of sin? Come on, use your God given sense of reason.

I'm expecting you to show me how the HADITH debunked the Original Sin, when Musa said categorically that "You are Adam who led people astray and brought them out of the Garden."
In fact this is a clear statement which means even Moses himself believed that HAD IT BEEN THAT ADAM DIDN'T SIN, PEOPLE WON'T BE LED ASTRAY OR KNOW SIN and MISSED THE PARADISE.

To support the original sin theory you agreed that ADAM'S NATURE WAS TAINTED by Satan's action.

Let me ask again, would Adam and Eve will have died in the paradise if they didn't sin?

Do you agree with me that some Christians don't believe in Original Sin and that Christians differ as to the definition?

Adam led us out of Paradise but we don't inherit his nature - we have our own natures which is pure in our birth. To return back to Paradise, we don't need a lamb of sacrifice. We only need to accept God, and be in a continual state of repentance. See how this belief differs widely to the mainstream understanding of Original Sin

Satan is the one who caused the fall which means Adam lost his TRUE NATURE and ALL DESCENDANTS OF ADAM SHARED in the same TAINTED NATURE.
Where did you read that Adam is in Hell?

No, shared?

According to your version of Christianity what is the fate of Adam?

Some Christians even deny the virgin birth of Jesus. What about that?

Do they bring up scriptural evidence as in the case of Original Sin?

Kia Kia, see another broad day lie even in your own Quran.
How dare you said "I think you are not aware that Adam and Eve repented only AFTER they came to earth. you're a disgrace to Islam and I see how your fellow brother who couldn't use their brain encomium you. What a shame

There is a difference in opinion regarding this, I believe but I take the view that Adam was informed that he was forgiven only on earth.

Let's see how serious you are by looking at this Surah:
"36. Then the Shaitan (Satan) made them slip therefrom (the Paradise), and got them out from that in which they were. We said: "Get you down, all, with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be a dwelling place for you and an enjoyment for a time."

37. [size=14pt]Then Adam received from his Lord Words . And his Lord pardoned him (accepted his repentance). Verily, He is the One Who forgives (accepts repentance), the Most Merciful.[/size]

Look here, Adam received the words of Repentance after "then".

38. We said: "Get down all of you from this place (the Paradise), then whenever there comes to you Guidance from Me, and whoever follows My Guidance, there shall be no fear on them, nor shall they grieve." Surah 2:36-38

I follow this interpretation : Here God is speaking to us all Mankind. Notice how God says us what to do and not to do. There is no need of a lamb of sacrifice to purify ourselves of sin. We should follow the guidance of God is all.

Verse 37 emphatically said that Allah accepts HIS REPENTANCE and verse 38 goes further to say that Adam was cast down to earth.
When you don't even know your Quran, do I need to disturb myself any longer?

Since your Quran proves that Adam had been forgiven in paradise, while did Allah still cast him down to earth? If not because Allah sees something wrong with HIS TAINTED NATURE.

No and no. We have to prove that we can overcome Satan.

So it's not Allah that created the Dinosaurs but they were made through evolution, that's right!

I believe in theistic evolution. You have no credibility if you don't believe that dinosaurs lived and died far before the age of man in spite of all the evidence.

But wouldn't Allah have told them that NONE of HIS creature deserves BOWING DOWN since some Angels can do so for being like Jinn or among themselves?


Imaging so it means Allah is not a being of his word and can raise a created being to his own position. what a God!

Iblis knew that it's irrational for a God to raise a created being to his own position or allow anyone to take his glory by commanding other to do the art that met for God to another that's why he didn't bow yet Allah still banished him for his total obedient.

That's why you yourself can said that BOWING DOWN was allowed for some people but now it was no longer permitted.

What? By bowing down they except Iblis all accepted that Adam was greater than them. Where did I say that Allah made Adam to equal Allah? That's nonsense. It was an act of obedience to God! Notice Satan's reasoning as to why he rejected! He didn't say that it contradicts God's glory. Iblis merely said that he was made from fire, while Adam was made from earth and so he is greater than Adam. Not God!

Remember you lied that Angels don't have their own freewill

They don't have free will.

Keep the lying coming I'm here for you, 3 lies now!

I shall leave you with these words of Ibn Kathir, the master of the interpreters of the Quran:

Some people believe that the reason why mankind does not dwell in Paradise is that Adam was disobedient and that if it had not been for this sin, we could have been there all along. These are naive fictions because when Allah wanted to create Adam, He said to the angels, "I shall make a vicegerent on the earth." He did not say, "I shall make a vicegerent in Paradise."
Adam's descent on earth, then, was not due to degradation but rather it was dignified descent. Allah knew that Adam and Eve would eat of the tree and descend to earth. He knew that Satan would rape their innocence. That experience was essential for their life on earth; it was a cornerstone of their vicegerency. It was meant to teach Adam, Eve, and their progeny that it was Satan who had caused them to be expelled from Paradise and that the road to Paradise can only be reached by obedience to Allah and enmity to Satan.
Could it be said that Adam and the rest of mankind were predestined to sin and to be expelled from Paradise and sent to the earth? In fact, this fiction is as naive as the first one.
Adam complete free will, and he bore the consequences of his deed. He disobeyed by eating of the forbidden tree, so Allah dismissed him from Paradise. His disobedience does not negate his freedom. On the contrary it is a consequence of it.
The truth of the matter is that Allah knew what was going to happen, as He always know the outcome of events before they take place. However Allah does not force things to happen. He grants free will to His human creatures. On that He bases His supreme wisdom in populating the earth, establishing the vicegerents, and so on.
Adam understood his 3rd lesson. He knew now in a practical way that Iblis was his enemy, the cause of his losing the blessing of living in Paradise, and the cause of his distress. Adam also understood that Allah punishes disobedience and that the way of Paradise has to be through submission to the will of Allah. And he learned from Allah Almighty to ask for forgiveness.
Allah accepted Adam's repentance and forgave him. He then sent him to the earth as His first messenger.
Abu Hurairah narrated that the Messenger (PBUH) said: "Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam: 'Your sin expelled you from Paradise.' Adam said: ' You are Moses whom Allah selected as His messenger and as the one to whom He spoke directly. Yet you blame me for a thing which had already been written in my fate before my Creation?" Allah's Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said twice, "So Adam outclassed Moses." (Sahih Bukhari).
Umar Ibn Al Khattab also narrated that the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said: "Moses (PBUH) said: 'My Lord! May I see Adam who removed us and himself from the Paradise?" so Allah made him see Adam and he said to him: "Are you Adam?" Adam said: "yes." And he said "Were you the one in Whom Allah breathed His spirit and before whom He bowed His angels and to whom He taught the names of all things?" Adam answered: "yes." so Moses said: "What made you remove us and yourself from Paradise.?"
Adam said: "Who are you?" Moses said: I am Moses." Adam said: "So you are Moses the prophet of the Children of Israel. Were you the one Allah spoke to directly?" Moses answered "yes." Adam said: "Why do you blame me for a matter which Allah had predestined?" So Allah’s Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said twice. "Adam outclassed Moses." (Sahih al Bukhari).

Interestingly the Quran completes the prophecies left over or is unclear in the Torah.

Quran 17:4-10
"4. And We gave (Clear) Warning to the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!
5. When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you Our servants given to terrible warfare: They entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.
6. Then did We grant you the Return as against them: We gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power.
7. If ye did well, ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil, (ye did it) against yourselves. So when the second of the warnings came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces, and to enter your Temple as they had entered it before, and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power.
8. It may be that your Lord may (yet) show Mercy unto you; but if ye revert (to your sins), We shall revert (to Our punishments): And we have made Hell a prison for those who reject (all Faith).
9. Verily this Qur'an doth guide to that which is most right (or stable), and giveth the Glad Tidings to the Believers who work deeds of righteousness, that they shall have a magnificent reward;
10. And to those who believe not in the Hereafter, (it announceth) that We have prepared for them a Penalty Grievous (indeed)."

Quran 17:104-105
And We said after Pharaoh to the Children of Israel, "Dwell in the land, and when there comes the promise of the Hereafter, We will bring you forth in [one] gathering." And with the truth We have sent the Qur'an down, and with the truth it has descended. And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a bringer of good tidings and a warner.

Quran 21:95-96
But there is a ban on a town (Jerusalem?) which We have destroyed: that they (the people of the town) shall not return (to reclaim that town as their own); until Gog and Magog are let through (their barrier), and they swiftly spread out in every direction (replicating themselves amongst all the peoples of the world).

Anas09:
I just ve alil problem.
Adam and Moses having a conversation? Like seriously? Moses used a Time Machine to teleport back to Adams time to have a discussion with him?
A generation is 100yrs. How many generations spanned from adam to Abraham? From Abraham to Moses how many generations? Like I said, except am sick in my head, No one shd have the temerity to tell me that the koran is accurate and True. That book is full of shit and intelligent people just accept it.

Mose having a conversation with Adam is like me in 2015 having a conversation with Alexandert the Great.

I don't know if you are a believer of the unseen or not, but the religious followers of Abraham (AS) believe in an afterlife where we can meet those before us and those after us if God wills to, and we also believe in the truth of Revelation and in Prophets and their ability to have some firsthand knowledge of the unseen by the permission of Allah.

Emusan:
You called it philosophy but let's see how his philosophy surpasses that of Allah.

It is but one man's fallible understanding of the life and death of Jesus (as), one man who never met the Blessed Messiah in front of independent witnesses and then gave contradictory accounts of his conversion. One man whose teachings contradict the Gospels as we know it, who argues with the disciples and who parted ways with James and the Early Church.

So if there's no original sin and every SOUL was originally PURE, where does sin come from?
From this statement of yours "...pure in the purest nature" we can infer that SIN was not in the plan of MAN

Yes. In the absence of external (demonic forces) man will be innocent and pure. All babies are born pure in the state of fithra and it is external forces that influence the soul in a negative way. If not for Satan, we wouldn't have sinned. Sin came from a conscious being that challenged the justice of God. We shouldn't lay the blame on Iblis though, we should accept that Adam and Eve sinned after letting their pure natures be tainted with false promises.

In Islam sin is not a state but kufr (rebellion) is. Sin is temporary injustice in the eyes of God. It is not a state we all are in.

Lol...
If sin can't be inherited and Allah is a great forgiver, why Allah didn't leave Adam and Eve in the so called paradise? AFTER ALL Quran claimed that Adam was forgiven
What did Allah see in Adam and Eve that made him banished them out of paradise after their sin has been forgiven?

Did Allah then not promise to return those who reject satan for Paradise? That is the forgiveness but His Forgiveness does not contradict His Justice, so He promises to put all of us, each and one of us, to the test. The consequence of Adam's sin was removed from Adam (he is returned back to Paradise), but the consequence for all of us were not. This is not due to Adam's sin though (as the Hadith clearly clarifies) - it was a matter predestined.

Please please, the @bold statement not only laughable but utmost ridiculous, in fact it's just too funny that an educated person can reason in such way.

How did Iblis know that every soul will taste death, when is he Allah?
Where in the Quran that it was written that Allah explained in detail how the end of creation will be for the jins and angels?

Imaging everything (including everyone, earth and heavens will be destroyed) before resurrection, and judgment.
Please will Muhammad and the pious saints who are in heaven now according to Muslim also be destroyed?
Kia, no wonder Quran says ALL OF YOU (Muslims) shall not escape HELL.

The Quran does not say that - instead it says that all of us (Muslims) will have to pass through it. This is in reference to the literal bridge over the Fire, as well as the figurative means by which we attain Paradise.

Everything will be destroyed and all souls will taste death, before everything is recreated as a new creation and all souls resurrected. By "everything" I mean everything in this world - where time and space is bound by God's laws of nature. As to Paradise and Hell, they are of the other world where time and space do not function the same way as in this world. For example we believe that all the Prophets (sal) are alive but in their graves. At the same time we believe that they met in heaven. How is that possible? That is because Paradise does not run like our world does. It is not bound by the same laws of nature. Bilal was alive on earth, but the Prophet (Sal) heard his footsteps when he visited the other world. I hope you get it. All angels, Jinn and man will face death again in the Day of Judgement while this world will be transformed to something new.

Again after Allah destroyed EVERYTHING including Muhammad, he will then RECREATE (because it won't be resurrection again) everybody back to life and then Judge them and re-destroy them back by condemning them to HELL again. What a wasted effort and poor logic.

Only the evil of the evil will dwell eternally in Hell. It is not a wasted effort. It is justice served.

Ehh ehh, including the just Angels are predestined to past through death when they're ALWAYS IN OBEDIENT TO ALLAH.

Again why Allah didn't leave Adam and Eve in PARADISE after he forgave them?

As I asked you at the beginning - do not confuse yourself by falsely premising Islamic theology on the phrase "the wages of sin is death". That is a premise in Pauline Philosophy, and it is not found in Judaism and Islam. Unless you are weak in your reasoning skills, you mustn't assume certain statements which you know is not a premise in the argument you are trying to refute. You are denying that death can be passed onto beings free of sin, as if death was the result of sin. What is death, anyway? Does it always have the same meaning? Is it the soul being separated from the body? Is it an everlasting state of no life? Is it the act of losing conciousness? What is it for it to be the wages of sin itself!

Now you are using uncertainty word "He MIGHT"
If Iblis might have known that Adam and Eve will equal him in sin as it implies that Adam and Eve haven't been created, it proves my point that Iblis knows the unseen because Iblis ONLY SINNED when he failed to bow for Adam shortly after Adam was created.

He might have known that Adam and Eve will equal him him in sin when he set out to seduce them into sin. God predicted to him that he would succeed anyway.

You ignored the @bold part in the OP which I thought I'll remind you but you've finally re-posted it.
@underline-Why will Allah mislead Iblis?

Come on, did Allah say that He misleaded Iblis? It was Iblis saying that. He was the first one to bring up the argument of determinism vs freewill. Iblis thought that he cannot bow down because Allah designed him that way. This is wrong and false and dangerous to think. This is the crown of Atheism and the Rebellion against God. Denying freedom of choice is disbelief in God.

Adam on the other hand fully acknowledges his freedom of choice and thus repents and his repentance is accepted.

If you don't get it please listen to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpZH1lQmuE4

Very funny of you, so after Allah pronounced HELL to those who will dance to tune of Iblis, Allah will later SEND ALL HIS FAITHFUL SLAVES TO EXTINCTION by destroying EVERYTHING including Muhammad and recreated them back, so what is the different between the punishment of those who follow Iblis from those Allah's slaves?

Everyone will face death. Those who follow Iblis will then be thrown into a state between life and death in the Fire. Those who reject Iblis will be rewarded with eternal life in both spirit and flesh.

Very ridiculous theology! After Allah's faithful slaves pass his test, Allah will later DESTROY ALL OF THEM before recreated them back.

You are very shallow in your understanding.

Then if this is true, Allah is not a great forgiver because I can't phantom claimed to forgive someone and still PUNISH the person.
Iblis disobeyed and he didn't ask for forgiveness Allah casting him out of heaven is justified but Adam and Eve disobeyed and asked for forgiveness, Allah forgave them AND STILL CAST THEM OUT of heaven. What is the different between the judgement of Iblis who isn't a repentance and Adam and Eve who repented and got forgiveness from Allah?

I can't believe that you are asking this question. Adam and Eve will enjoy eternal life in Paradise while Iblis will enjoy tormenting himself and his followers in Hell forever and ever.

Then after Satan takes all his friends to HELL, Allah will later destroy both HIS OWN TRUE SLAVES and ALL Satan's FRIENDS together.
Which means the judgement that meant for Satan must spread to Allah's true slaves likewise.

What do you think "destroying" means? Cannot Allah destroy everyone and create them in new forms in a new creation before the Day of Judgement?

This is an eyes opener for a true seeker of the True God.
Notice how the @bold part forfeited the claim that there's no ORIGINAL SIN. Musa used PEOPLE which means MANKIND here and he said ADAM BROUGHT THEM OUT OF THE GARDEN when in reality it was ONLY Adam and Eve that were cast out of the garden!
According to this Hadith, Musa himself knows that, it was as a result of Adam's sin that PEOPLE LED ASTRAY (BEGIN TO SIN) and SUFFERING ON EARTH TODAY. How dare you challenge the authoritative and inspired word of Apostle Paul?

Original sin is debunked in the very same hadith. It is not a sin that lead us to earth, it is the plan and decision of God. Earth is not our permanent home, it is only a testing ground. This life is not eternal. Allah created us from earth, for earth but when we are returned to him we will be as a new creation.

I know majority of Muslims didn't know the meaning of "ORIGINAL SIN" whereas ORIGINAL SIN simply means everything MAN experienced on earth today was as a result of ADAM's DISOBEDIENT. Can you see how your Islamic theology also prove ORIGINAL SIN to be true?

Everything? Disobedience? Where does Iblis come into the picture then? So according to Paul Adam is in hell?

Christians themselves differ as to whether or not Original Sin is a true concept, and what exactly it is. You cannot deny this

He condemned iblis JUST FOR ONE SIN why Iblis never asked for forgiveness AND also CONDEMNED Adam and Eve JUST FOR ONE SIN after they asked for forgiveness and being forgiven yet you call him a great forgiver.

Yes. Adam and Eve was promised eternal life after they repented. But for us, their children, we have to prove ourselves on earth.

I think you are not aware that Adam and Eve repented only AFTER they came to earth. Their repentance was accepted because they blamed themselves. So yes the consequences of their sin was eliminated and transformed by their repentance. Sin is not inherited (no son will carry the burden of his father), but the consequences of sin can. We are still born in state of purity and this belief contradicts the mainstream understanding of Original Sin.

Imaging evolution involves bloodshed when man is not yet on earth or you mean people are already living on earth through the spontaneous soup of evolution before Allah later created Adam

The beasts of the earth were - for example dinosaurs. The angels saw how evolution involved a lot of bloodshed - that's one possible reason why they questioned God (God allowed them to).

Imaging the @bold, so if there's no anyone else Jinns and other angels are not being right? According to Islam theology, Jinn and Angel are not the same.

I mean that their weren't any other possible objects of worship - so no risk of shirk even if they had free will.

Lol...so those Kings and prophets are not creatures but divine that's why Allah will allow it for them and later reverted it for you.

No. Bowing down was not considered an act of worship when done under the command of the God being worshipped.

Not one of WORSHIP! what kind obedience are you talking about here?

We do works in obedience to God.

Imaging they all accepted that Adam has the potential to better them in the eyes of Allah whereas the angels are the messengers of Allah who can see Allah, talk to Allah but Adam can't do all these.

That's why Iblis didn't bow. The angels accepted that God knew better than them, so when He says to bow they all bowed. Iblis meanwhile acts as the champion of the Rebellious (atheists and their likes). He used his God given sense of rationality, forgetting that it was the same Creator asking him to bow down, to argue that what was being asked was unjust and illogical.

enieme:
tqs for ur contribution. But how about d element of attraction which we may term love. One could find someone one is attracted to but the person may not be as religious or otherwise, whence one likes a person fro his or her religiousness but one just can't stand being married to such person.
U remember d story of zainab daughter of rasulullah (s. A. W? )who loved her husband so much even though he wasn't a believer at dat time and she bore patiently till he became Muslim.
Or even stories of several other sahabis whowhom say must or Abu bark proposed to buy who declined their offer not cos they weren't religious enough of course as we know, but probably because they weren't their type of person.

Well, if you love Allah then naturally you'll love what He loves and dislike what He does not love. The more taqwa you have, the more you love the people who have taqwa. By "love" I mean the care and affection you harbour in your heart for these people. This is a general rule and applies in any relationship between any two believers.

Islam came in stages so as to train the hearts of the early Muslims to that which is better for themselves and their societies, as God knows better what is good and what is bad for us. I don't think Zainab the daughter of Muhammad (sal) would have fallen in love with this man after having knowledge of the full revelation. In any case love and mercy can only be grown between the two sexes in marriage, and not before or outside of it. Zainab was not attracted to him because of his idolatry, but because of his other good qualities and with time in her marriage her love grew and thus she couldn't break away. The Qur'an makes an exception to marriages like this - which is illegal under the General Sharia' - but was made at a time of ignorance. Because of this exception, new Muslims who find themselves in an "unholy" marriage may chose to remain in the marriage without blame or interference.

There is always the possibility that even though you are attracted to your spouse because of your love of deen and faith which is reflected in their life, still that wouldn't be enough. Consider the marriage and relationship that the Prophet (sal) himself brought about between his adopted son Zaid and his cousin Zainab, two great Sahabah, but their marriage failed (33:37) . This kind of love is obviously not enough to sustain the marriage, and we need to consider all other factors.

Emusan:
So it was Allah who told Iblis that there will be RESURRECTION OF THE DEATH when the act that brought death on earth has never even happened.

Unfortunately you are confusing Islamic theology with elements of Pauline Philosophy. Like the Jews, we Muslims don't believe in Original Sin (we don't take Paul's words as God's words). We believe that every soul is originally pure in the purest nature. We believe that Sin cannot be inherited, that every man bears the consequences of his actions. We believe that God is Most Merciful, and that He is a Great Forgiver.

We believe that it was always the plan of God to divide the passage of time, once He had begun it into two distinct phases. One temporary, the other eternal and everlasting. One where God is "veiled" and the other when all Sovereignty will be for him. The Quran repeats the fact that every soul will taste death. At the point of division everything (everyone plus everything - all the earths and all the heavens) will be destroyed and only God shall remain. Then the Resurrection, and Judgment.

The idea that death came into the world with man is baseless. The Quran acknowledges the presence of beasts before Mankind and throughout the universe. Death is predestined for everything and everyone except the Eternal One.

Please did Allah also tell Iblis that he'll be one who will deceive Adam and Eve?

I believe yes, Iblis knew that Adam and Eve was destined to Earth. He might have known that Adam and Eve would be swayed into sin, and so equal him in sin. He would have been a witness to the covenant Allah established between Him and each and one of us before birth. God clearly informed Iblis of success with regards to a portion from Mankind

39. [Iblis (Satan)] said: "O my Lord! Because you misled me, I shall indeed adorn the path of error for them (mankind) on the earth, and I shall mislead them all.
40. "Except Your chosen, (guided) slaves among them."
41. (Allah) said: "This is the Way which will lead straight to Me."
42. "Certainly, you shall have no authority over My slaves, except those who follow you of the Ghawin (Mushrikun and those who go astray, criminals, polytheists, and evil-doers, etc.).
43. "And surely, Hell is the promised place for them all.
44. "It (Hell) has seven gates, for each of those gates is a (special) class (of sinners) assigned.
(Al-Quran, Surah Al-Hijr).

Lol...Allah's plan is to create Adam on earth but shortly after creating them, Adam and Eve were given a GARDEN IN PARADISE.

This is the beauty of Islamic theology. This is the Truth. We were meant for Paradise but destined to be tested on earth. Why test us though? Because of Satan's challenge. God expelled him for disobedience, so God should also expel anyone that disobeys him. He lets us prove ourselves better than Satan and his allies on earth. God's promise to Satan is that - take all your friends with you to Hell and I'll take my true slaves to myself.

Malik Muwatta
Book 46, Number 46.1.1:
Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu'z-Zinad from al-Araj from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Adam and Musa argued and Adam got the better of Musa. Musa rebuked Adam, 'You are Adam who led people astray and brought them out of the Garden.' Adam said to him, 'You are Musa to whom Allah gave knowledge of everything and whom he chose above people with His message.' He said, 'Yes.' He said, 'Do you then censure me for a matter which was decreed for me before I was created?' "

This matter (the "Fall" was predestined so as to be just with regards to Iblis. God has to be consistent with his judgement. If He condemns Iblis for just one Sin, He cannot give a free pass to us. As for the sin itself, Adam bettered Satan and asked for repentance and forgiveness while blaming himself. Satan never asked for forgiveness, instead he blamed God himself. Adam blamed his own self (his free will), while Iblis blamed predestination. This is the essence of the sixth article of faith in the Islamic creed.

The key point you're missing is this, Iblis says "the Day the (dead) are raised"

Was it Allah who told Iblis this also?

Yes. Iblis could have easily deduced this. If you know that God intends a Day of Judgement, and that death occurs on earth you can easily deduce that God intends Resurrection. Anyways, the angels immediately asked God when He first broke the news of Adam's role on earth why God intended bloodshed and evil on earth as per their understanding. Evolution involves bloodshed and freewill involved evil, why should God introduce man also to this? God answers them in a marvelous way if you read the entire passage.

Imaging, and you're the who said maybe I'm ignorant of Qur'an but we can see how this perfectly described you.

This is from the verse you quoted "while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?"

So you mean these angels are carrying out this specific task while STANDING or just feel relax on bed not by bowing down


Your post full of funny statements, so until Allah commanded Angels to declare his praise and sanctify him they ONLY do so, no Angel can do so on his own accord

Whereas we see Angel having his own choice in the Quran.

I think English is not your first language but even so you must have understood what I had written. God didn't command the angels to bow to Him ONLY, there was no command to reject anyone else because firstly there wasn't anyone else and secondly the angels have no choice in the matter anyway. God ordered them to bow to Adam, so they all bowed except Iblis who was a Jinn who thought God was being unjust.

It is only in our Shariah that bowing down to creation is haraam. Previously literally bowing was allowed to Kings, prophets and their likes but not now. Angels "bowed" to creation because God commanded to do so. Their action is not one of worship to creation, but one of obedience to God. They all accepter that Adam has the potential to better them in the eyes of Allah. This acceptance and action is also a way in which they glorified the works of Allah.

They are not mutually exclusive. The Prophet (pbuh) gave four possible criteria when looking for a spouse. Beauty, wealth, rank and/or piety. These are all permissible to be used as criteria, but he (sal) singled out piety (taqwa) as the single quality that would enable you to succeed (in both worlds). Taqwa cannot be judged by man though, so you should go by outward signs such as charity, hijab etc

Love and religion is not mutually exclusive. It is farl to maintain and fulfill the rights of your spouse, though it is not farl to "love" - Shariah does not govern the heart. You fall in love with what you love. If you love beauty, you'll love the beautiful. If you love wealth, you'll love the wealthy. If you love power, you'll love the powerful. If you love Allah, you'll love those who are conscious of Him. Taqwa is the only quality that is 100% in one's control. This is potentially eternal, so only this "love" is eternal.

I believe that this is the love that should compell you to marry. As to the other (lower) dimensions of love, it would have to be grown and be maintained in cycles after marriage. This is a great sign of God, if you think about it

[30:21] And of His signs is that He created for you from yourselves mates that you may find tranquillity in them; and He placed between you affection and mercy. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought.

You just can't take one verse and make your conclusions based on it. Read the very next verse, Allah makes it clear for us to establish the Quran as the Criterion.


"And We have revealed to you, [O Muúammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ."

Furthermore read the verse in its context.

http://quran.com/5/44-48

There is much more emphasis on the Torah, while the past tense is used for both ("was" a guidance and light, its clearer in the Arabic). The judgment being discussed is th judgment in a court of law as made clear in the context as well as th seerah, when the Prophet (pbuh) gave full freedom of having their own courts of law for the Jewish and Christian communities. The "it" most likely refers back to the Torah, where the parable of an "eye for an eye" is emphasized in the previous verse. Basically God is rhetorically asking you'll to question why you'll have thrown the law away.

There's absolutely no problem that can arise if you properly read the text. You can collect up evidence against Islam, but please make it reasonable!

Iblis does not have any knowledge of the unseen, except when informed by Allah or through the power of Allah. I don't know why you think that Iblis when he was the leader of the angels, knew facts of the unseen just because he knew that Man was destined to Earth unless I assume you are very ignorant when it comes to the Quran. Iblis knew it simply because Allah informed the angels (of whom he lead):
[i]
And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know. [/i]2:30

Allah never previously commanded the angels to bow to Him only alone. The angels simply followed the orders of Allah, and in Islam the angels are thought to be different from Mankind and Jinnkind in that they are not burdened with a freedom of choice. Iblis was and is a Jinn.