₦airaland Forum

m4malik 2nd writing: AbduRahman's Isaiah Prophecy, food for thought.

AbduRhaman:
6. For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

As Jesus, also Muhammad (puh) were given to us, although in case of Jesus focus is much more in his
birth. Government will rest on shoulders of Muhammad, and on Him who send Muhammad and ordered
him to act and to do as he did, in founding of government. This is not about Jesus, he did not found
government. "Wonderful Counsellor" describes amazing Quran and numerous hadiths, over two million
of them, and amount of information on those for nearly all aspects of life. "Mighty God" and "Eternal
Father" describes God of Islam, Allah (not Jesus-loves-you-all-god), from Whom Muhammad (and also
Jesus) preached about, and how Allah will be eternity and will not change a bit . Prince of Peace is about
Allah, Islam and Muhammad together, their common affect on world and about peace they brought.


The Prophecy of Isaiah 9:6-7 is well understood by Christians to point to just one Person - the Lord Jesus Christ. However, AbduRahman seems to force an unwarranted interpretation into the text to include a second person, and thereby defeats his own point.

It was just said that Jesus (actually more like Christianity than Jesus) was prophesied in verses from Isaiah in other passages ALSO mentioned, not here. This is about Muhammad. Christians do not have any right to claim that theirs interpretations about Bible is right and so others are not, as even Jews, whom had Bible in the first place, do not agree with that.

So THERE WAS NOT any "defeats his own point".

1. First, he fails to see that the text refers to just one Person; at least, that shouldn't be difficult to see if only close attention was paid to simple English. The child to be born was still the same son to be given to us; and the rest of that verse was speaking about Him.

And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

In Bible there is much parallels, even from Jesus. Have you taken your eye out yet, or have you ever took a look at a women?

Notice, the text did not say that the government would rest on 'their' shoulders, but on 'His' shoulders! Likewise, 'His' name (referring to just one Person) - not 'their' names. So, the prophecy does not point to Muhammad and 'the amazing Qur'an and the numerous hadiths, over two million of them,' blah, blah, blah. It's amazing that AbduRahman attempts to squeeze out the main character of the prophecy ("This is not about Jesus," so he could introduce his ideas through the back door.

"Theirs" is trough prophet, that "single person". And Qur´an and hadiths are from that "single person"

2. In quoting Biblical texts, one should seriously ask if AbduRahman has any shred of belief in the Bible, let alone try to "interpret" or explain it. If he does not believe that the Bible is the Word of God, what's the point trying to quote from and interpret it in such a way as to try to "prove" that Isaiah was all about Islam?

According to Islam not ALL from Bible are (totally) corrupted. My faith does not depend on it. So why not?

3. We are told in verse 7 of the same prophecy that, "Of the increase of his (that is, Christ's) government and peace there will be no end. He (again, Jesus Christ) will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom,, " Two things come to mind here: (a) David's throne, and (b) the government or Kingdom.

AbduRahman interprets the term 'David's throne' this way: [, "reigned from David’s throne" (throne of religions of Abraham) is Islam that spread through THREE continents, "]. AbduRahman may not believe in the Bible, but he should note that David was not an Arab - he was a Jew!


Isaiah's prophecy has got nothing to do with Islam. With all respect, we note that the prophet Muhammad was an Arab, and so could not have been qualified to legally "reign on David's throne and over his kingdom." Moreover, Jesus Himself reiterated that 'salvation is of (or from) the Jews' (John 4:22) - not from the Arabs. Thus, because Jesus was a Jew and of the lineage of David, He was the appointed One to reign on David's throne. This was precisely what people called Jesus in the first century:

Then why did you say this:

[/quote]m4malik 3rd writing:
From these scriptures, it is clear that the Kingdom was not to be understood in literal form as other kingdoms: it was not a physical, politico-religious dynasty or any of such.
[quote]

So why did you rule Muhammed out of "lineage of Abraham" (so as David)?

m4malik 1st post: I should not be tedious to anyone on this subject, especially as a response to posts made earlier. However, it has often been said many times that Christians have no answers to issues raised by some Moslems conducting "research" of sorts. The funny thing is that Abdulrahman's excessively long posts said next to nothing, especially when clarity is lacking. Apart from taking Bible verses out of contexts and arriving at completely different meanings from what the texts say, he leaves many of us wondering what he was all about in the first place, not to even mention the basic questions of salvation and faith in the true God. His very drab and unconnected story-telling in his first opening paragraphs - that's another matter. I do not mean to say anything derogatory, but the whole exercise leads me to ask just one question: Was Abdulrahman trying to prove that the claims of Biblical Christianity were not true? If Isaiah prophesied two opposing faiths (Christianity and Islam), where does that leave you and me in God's plan of salvation, because we all know that these two faiths have no connections? I'm still scratching my head for his answers.

Centuries between can make some differences to interpretations and understanding of religious text. Here you have just created Jesus vs. pharisees situation, where both sides say that their interpretation is correct, and so another ones are wrong.

Hindus also think their (way of) religion is only real religion, and they even use same "proofs" for it.

---Was Abdulrahman trying to prove that the claims of Biblical Christianity were not true?---

If you make (force) Jew worshipping God of Abraham into a molt of god, how could it be (at least in some parts of it)?

---If Isaiah prophesied two opposing faiths (Christianity and Islam), where does that leave you and me in God's plan of salvation, because we all know that these two faiths have no connections? I'm still scratching my head for his answers.---

And you (sorry that I say this, but I also believe into evolution) ape will continue to scratch your head, until you read Koran and understand that Islam is BUILD ON TOP OF Christianity and so Judaism. These are three different parts of same story according to Islam, even though those might not be it for you. But now it is not matter of your opinion, but about opinion of Bibble.

There is so much new updates/corrections here (writing above), and whole writing is now in different form than before (in this forum), that I thought it will need new opening topic here to make some real conversation/debate about it (as it is now more easy to follow).

If you can make prophecies (f.ex. hidden in parallels from church to be less corrupted) to fit in history and into Bible, Christians have no other change but to accept them, if they want to be honest for themselves. As you here will see, connections in history are too much even for Christians to deny these prophecies, and Christians do not really have any reasonable (with deeper meaning) explanation for these parts of sayings of Jesus Christ, Messiah:


---Matt.20:1-16, one "hour" is 200 years, "first hour" is Abraham, Jacob and Jews 1800-1700 BC, "third hour" is Sabians 1200-1100 BC, "sixth hour" is beginning of prophecies about Messiah 600 BC and "ninth hour" is Jesus coming 1 AC, "eleventh hour" is Islam 500-700 AC).----

In "third" hour you know it is talking about Sabians or Zarathustrians (Bible mentions two different “Sabians” in different directions), as "people who had nothing to do" clearly describes that right religion (as not yet corrupted, at least too much) was not yet given (from nations of that time) but for small group of Jews before.

In "eleventh hour" description matches Arabs, as people with nothing to do said "no one has not hired us yet", and Arabs were not given religion or messengers before Muhammad (pbuh), in fact they were so despised that neither Persia or Byzantium tried to conquer them, or to convert them to Christianity.

And finally "last coming as first and first as last" is just what prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said, that even as he and Muslims came last, they will enter paradise first. By the way, in 20:12 people who came first (Jews) complaining about denary (paradise) for master (God) just because last (Muslims) did work so much more less time than them, is almost humorous description about Jews, who claim(ed) to be chosen nation of God, and who even took salvation for their own nation and religion only, without allowing it to others (even converts were and even now are considered as only "half-Jew".


Some would say that verses in Matt.20:1-16 question actually point to divine generosity that transcends human ideas of fairness. Yes it can do that TOO (although first group complaining about payment because of extra-work and master getting furious about it does not really support it), but it is far more complex and long for that alone. It would have just be easy to say that master gives denar for workers, and that’s it.

Most popular Christian interpretation is that here Jesus told how disciples were hired in "first" and "third" hours as apostles (it does not make sense at all, as all disciples were "hired" at once by Jesus, not in two time periods, and why would apostles be unhappy about later Christians entering also paradise, even before them, as they were one to convert them?), and that from "sixth" to "ninth" hour is about apostle Paul (again, why it would have been said to happen between these two time-periods, and not just in one?), and that in last hour is talked about all later Christians (who will come "first even though they were last", why would they enter paradise before apostles, and especially why would apostles go mad about them going one second before them into paradise, as all mentioned in parallel are saved anyway?).



Another prophecy:

---Luke.13:6-9, one "year" in prophecy is 600 years from Abraham to Islam=4 "years" 2400 years, 3 "years" before Jesus and 1 "year" from Jesus to Islam=600 years, when "tree of Judaism", and with it Jesus=Christianity, is cut down by Allah with "gardener" Jesus from way of Islam---

This is clear prophecy, if Christians would think even a little. Of course gardener talking to master (God) is Jesus himself, who presented this figure of speech. And when master (God) said to gardener (Jesus) that "cut this tree (symbol of Judaism generally in Bible, fig tree), it only takes strength from this ground", Jesus refers to his mission as reformatory of Judaism, as then Jesus says that he will take care from that land and "fertilize land around it", and that maybe "next year it will make fruits, and if not, THEN cut it down". And of course, tree (Judaism and sect of it, Christianity) was cut down (removed from religions of right way) as Islam came after that year (600 years) from "fertilized land AROUND IT" (around Israel, from Arabia, and Jesus made way for Islam by splitting Roman Empire to East and West Rome by religious differences in case of power and ruling, so weakening it, and Jesus also brought at least in principle monotheistic teachings of Bible for pagans who would not have Islam anyway if Romans had still be united, eventually during centuries after Arab-migration Christianity made lots of population "around Israel" to accept Islam or to marry Muslim and raise Muslim-childrens).


Some say this Luke.13:6-9 is just numerical games. So tell me more reasonable and as compatible explanation. Fig tree is symbol of Judaism generally in Bible. Also when Jesus cursed fig tree in Matt.21:19 by words "may no fruit ever come from you again", he probably stated that no more prophets are going to come from Jews. And why time schedule fits so well in both of these religions, did Jesus not know about coming of Islam or did he not care how these will look?

But point here is, why did Jesus, propably most intelligent human ever lived, used so complicated words just to describe most simple of things, about God giving reward for believers? Could it not have been said just by few simple words that everybody would understand (especially if it is not even prophecy)? Did he have to promote his ability for making parallels? Did he use "big words" just to confuse us, especially Muslims who see this as a prophecy?

At least in my interpretation there is not only prophecy about coming of Islam, and description/time-schedule about "People of the Book" mentioned in Qur´an 600 years later, but also warning that people should follow most recent prophet to be saved for sure, allthough believers of previous religions have been right too, and have been saved.

This is from http://www.angelfire.com/planet/koran/ connected to topic, this explains how Islam and "People of the Book"-religions were calculated to be connected into these parallels of Jesus mentioned on first page of topic.


MY CALCULATIONS IN Matt.20:1-16

There is no mentioning if workers came in what part of each "hour"

("about" 11th = 400-600 AC, Islam 570-632AC (to beginning of 12th)
10th = 200-400 AC
9th = 1 AC-200 AC (Christianity 32 AC ->
8th = 200 BC- 1 AD
7th = 400 BC-200 BC
6th = 600 BC-400 BC (Messiah prophesied)
5th = 800 BC-600 BC
4th = 1000 BC- 800 BC
3th = 1200-1000 BC (Sabians / Zarathustrians)
2nd = 1400 BC-1200 BC
1st = 1600 BC-1400 BC (Early Jews)
"0-hour" = 1800 BC-1600 BC. ("Early in the morning he went", not actually INSIDE first hour, Jewish religion was practically born only after Jacob etc. in 1600 BC-1400 BC)

Well, Jesus did not go to practice math in schools. This is not math-exam, but for people to understand some idea. And maybe he being just a human, who makes errors and has somewhat limited knowledge, is reason also to why there is least "error-marginale" (+ - inside 200 years) in places of parallel connected to himself and Christianity.

MY CALCULATIONS IN Luke 13:6-9

Maybe Israel AS AN OFFICIAL STATE (eventhough part of Rome and so not state) was "cut down" 70 AC, but Jewish religion and its sect Christianity did not "expire" as a (right) religions before Islam came 600 years after Jesus (Jesus 32 AC - Mohammed 632 AC) from point of Islam. Israel itself as a state have no importance for God without its religion, do you Christians agree that from Bible?

Israel (that "tree" is not subject anymore after its cutting down (in 600 AC), but ground around it. "Ground around it" is symbol for spiritual, geological and religious connection between semitistic Islamic and Jewish religions. But before it (before Islam, those last 600 years that were given extra-time) Jewish-tree has opportunity to grow fruits "next year". Obviously it did not do so as God created Islam. All that tree produced during that "year" (600 years) was form of Christianity that worshipped Jewish prophet as a god. From Jewish view those are not good fruits.

MY CALCULATIONS IN Matt.20:1-16

There is no mentioning if workers came in what part of each "hour"

("about" 11th = 400-600 AC, Islam 570-632AC (to beginning of 12th)
10th = 200-400 AC
9th = 1 AC-200 AC (Christianity 32 AC ->
8th = 200 BC- 1 AD
7th = 400 BC-200 BC
6th = 600 BC-400 BC (Messiah prophesied)
5th = 800 BC-600 BC
4th = 1000 BC- 800 BC
3th = 1200-1000 BC (Sabians / Zarathustrians)
2nd = 1400 BC-1200 BC
1st = 1600 BC-1400 BC (Early Jews)
"0-hour" = 1800 BC-1600 BC. ("Early in the morning he went", not actually INSIDE first hour, Jewish religion was practically born only after Jacob etc. in 1600 BC-1400 BC)

Well, Jesus did not go to practice math in schools. This is not math-exam, but for people to understand some idea. And maybe he being just a human, who makes errors and has somewhat limited knowledge, is reason also to why there is least "error-marginale" (+ - inside 200 years) in places of parallel connected to himself and Christianity.

MY CALCULATIONS IN Luke 13:6-9

Maybe Israel AS AN OFFICIAL STATE (eventhough part of Rome and so not state) was "cut down" 70 AC, but Jewish religion and its sect Christianity did not "expire" as a (right) religions before Islam came 600 years after Jesus (Jesus 32 AC - Mohammed 632 AC) from point of Islam. Israel itself as a state have no importance for God without its religion, do you Christians agree that from Bible?

Israel (that "tree" is not subject anymore after its cutting down (in 600 AC), but ground around it. "Ground around it" is symbol for spiritual, geological and religious connection between semitistic Islamic and Jewish religions. But before it (before Islam, those last 600 years that were given extra-time) Jewish-tree has opportunity to grow fruits "next year". Obviously it did not do so as God created Islam. All that tree produced during that "year" (600 years) was form of Christianity that worshipped Jewish prophet as a god. From Jewish view those are not good fruits.

JESUS PROPHESIED ISLAM / MOHAMMED AND TOLD ABOUT “PEOPLE OF THE BOOK”-RELIGIONS (in Qur´an 600 years later!), AND TIME-SCHEDULE OF THOSE, AND TOLD ORDER OF THOSE RELIGIONS WITH DESCRIPTIONS: (Allah knows best)


(These are connected to Luke.5:36-39, why new religion is necessary instead of change of old religions.)


1 "hour" = approx. 200 hundred years, from Abraham/Jacob 1800-1700 BC (and so Jewish-religion 1600 BC-> to Islam 632 AC = 2400 years / 12 hours = 200 years

Matt.20:1. "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner (God) who went (send prophets) out early in the morning (before "first hour" of 12 hours of day in Jewish calendar, so Abraham/Jacob 1800-1700 BC and Jews as a religion after them in "first hour" 1600-1400 BC) to hire men (believers) to work (for His glory) in his vineyard (Earth). 2. He agreed to pay them a denarius (paradise) for the day (world history) and sent them into his vineyard.

3. "About the third hour (1300/1200-1100 BC Sabians/Zarathustrians, even in Bible there is two "Sabians" in opposite directions, another possibly in South-Iraq) he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing (Judaism had not spread much outside their own Jewish nation). 4.He told them, 'You also (besides Judaism) go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5. So they went.

"He went out again about the sixth hour (600 BC beginning of prophesies about Messiah) and the ninth hour (around 1 AC Jesus were born) and did the same thing (created Christians and Christianity).

6. ABOUT (not exactly 400-600 AC) the eleventh hour (Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him: 570-632 AC) he went out (send prophet) and found still others (Arabs) standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing (Arabs had not had religions through prophets, only polytheism-paganism)?'

7. " 'Because no one has hired us (Arabs were so despised that even Byzantium or Persia did not want to conquer and convert them),' they answered."He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'

8. "When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages (what they deserve), beginning with the last ones hired (Muslims) and going on to the first (Jews).'

9. "The workers (Muslims) who were hired about the eleventh hour (500-700 AC) came and each received a denarius. 10. So when those came who were hired first (Jews), they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner (God). 12. 'These men who were hired last (Muslims) worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day (persecutions, slavery, occupations).'

13. "But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14. Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15. Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous (you want to keep God for your nation only, as a "chosen people"?'


16. "So the last (Muslims) will be first, and the first (Jews) will be last."

[Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said that even though he was last of prophets, and Muslims are last of believers, they will be first to enter paradise, "last will be first"]

-----------------------------------------


1 "year" = approx. 600 years, from Abraham / Jacob 1800 BC and so later Jews to Islam 632 AC = 2400 years / 4 "year" = 600 years


Luke.13:6. Then he told this parable: "A master (God) had a fig tree (symbol of Israel in Bible), planted in his vineyard (Earth), and he went to look for fruit (results) on it, but did not find any. 7. So he said to the man (Jesus) who took care of the vineyard (Judaism "only true religion"/least corrupted in the world in times of Jesus), 'For three (3*600 = 1800) years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil (why not to do better religion)?'

8. " 'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one (1*600) more year(s), and I'll dig around it and fertilize it (make world ready for Islam, also in Middle-East, "around" Israel as in [Christian] Arabia/Egypt/Syria). 9. If it bears fruit next year (in 600 years), fine! If not, THEN (after that "year"=600 years) cut it down (Judaism and so also its sect/branch Christianity, when Islam came).' "
-----------------------------------------

More explanations in:

http://www.angelfire.com/planet/koran/

and (also about science/history in Koran)

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/

damygurl:
---since u didn't bring any evidence to save me from fire Huh wats ya excuse?---

i got you to think about it, didn´t i?

freegurl:
---i am really suprised that people have chosen to make this forum into what it really isn't. i also want to make sure that people understand that religion is something we should not argue about. stop the devil from using you, we all serve the same God. ausubillahi minashaitani rajim. don't let the devil use you.---

that is why we have to learn understanding each others religions better. being closer to some one is always better than to be in opposite of that. we are social animals.

21:30 "Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were one (joined together as one united piece / as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder (/then We parted them)? We made from water every living thing, will they not even then believe?"

This passage not only just describe "Big Bang" (common origin of earth and heaven) and beginning of evolution from water (on Earth at least, as it is mentioned in passage mentioned for "unbelivers" in Earth), but also gives opportunity for interpretation that continents were together and then separated from each other.

51:47 "With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, we are able to extend the vastness of space thereof."

Universe is still expanding, but there is not denied that it could collapse some day.

80:26 "And We split the earth in fragments (/cleaving it asunder/clefts),"

This told us that earth has been once as one continent, but has been divided with continental plates as in many parts. It is described in next parts:

13:3 "...spread out the earth (/expand the earth, "madda al-ard"..."
15:19 "...the earth we have spread out (like a carpet, "maddadnaha"= "We expanded" or "We spread out"-"madda", which means "to stretch" or to "to expand" or "to spread out".)..."
20:53 "...like a carpet spread out (="mahda" literally means a flat road, or a road that is easy to walk on. It is similar to our highways today. They are easy to drive on.)..."
88:17-20 "....stretched the earth ("sutihat", stretched)..."

Continents have been "stretched" as dry paint is stretched in surface of air-balloon getting bigger. Surface of Earth is stretching from places between continental plates, when new material is produced by movement of plates further each others.

79:30-31 "And the earth, moreover, hath He formed in round shape (/egg shape, "dahaha", round LIKE the ostrich's egg with flat sand around covering the egg from predators). He draweth out there from its water ("ma-aha" and its pasture."

21:33 "It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon: all (celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course (/each in an orbit floating)."
55:5 "The sun and the moon run on their fixed courses (exactly) calculated with measured out stages for each (for reckoning).

As we now know, sun goes around centre of our galaxy. Koran uses (for example 36:40) words "swim" and "floating", that sounds familiar with theory of space and time, how gravity affects in it by making a "hole" size of mass of celestial object (f.ex. sun), and how this "hole" in space-time field makes other bodies orbiting it to stay on their courses (bigger mass=bigger hole= more further away others have to be on "lower steps", so that too deep downhill in gravity will not swallow it, if too close). Eventually their course can lead into star or black hole. When in Europe they "knew" that sun is orbiting around earth, this description could have been accepted even through their "science", but it says all with very little even now.

Both earth and heavens had their own six periods ("days" could be false translation) of creation, here is phases for creation of the heavens (in parts below explaining how you can notice this difference in Koran, point is that there is no dots in Arabic Koran, and we can not know where there should be, it can be only way to explain “eight” days in 41:9-12).

This was one possible meaning for these six "days"/"periods of time" in creation of universe:

1."Big Bang", 2.Hydro- and helium-atoms core/centre forming couple of minutes after it , 3. 300 000 years from Big Bang Hydro- and helium-atoms formed completely and background radiation is formed, 4. First stars and galaxies are formed, building blocks for universe from stars exploding, 5. Our Milky Way-galaxy is born, and so building blocks for our sun system, 6. Our sun system is born and our planet is "brought together" from meteors finally.

Here is spoken about creation of earth in six "days", later about (earlier but late) creation of heavens:

41:9-10 "Say (Mohammed): Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds. He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance)."

He gave us blessing even this point, continental-plates and with them beginning of evolution on mountains, although even before that there were higher formations on earth. At that early stage mountains may have not be yet so "high above ground" as now, but as soon as those started to develop it was beginning of it, leading into it, and still more higher than other parts of earth. So " set high above" may be later time than this two "days"/periods from creation of earth (maybe it has been last four days or all six, still going on), because when Allah will "set" something to happen, it is, has been and will be, Allah has known always He will do it (and that is answer for those "who ask".

Above here is spoken about six different "day" of creation (of earth) than in these two "days" below.
So here is about creation of heavens (in these verses about our galaxy and sun-system, happening partly same time with formation of earth, “moreover”):

41:11-12
"Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) SMOKE (/hot gas, "Dukhaan": He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye TOGETHER, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience." So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge."

These two "days" (periods) above are different from ayats 9-10, obviously last two "days" in ayat 11. ("smoke"= 5.formation of our milky way-galaxy, "come ye together"= 6.birth of our sun system from our galaxy). "To it and to earth" may also mean both separately or both coming together, or then both, as in heavens/earth (in pieces of meteors) forming from gas "smoke", an then in meteor-bombing of earth. As we know, star fogs forming galaxies especially in the early stages of universe (more recently our own galaxy and its star-system of sun, which both "sky" could be here) have been plenty of looking like smoke filling the space before higher amount of stars and planets, and look like smoke even now (in more younger systems). "Dukhaan" (in Arabic) in Koran means smoke/HOT gas. These "circles of clouds" formed for example planets, so "sky" did come "together" WITH ITSELF. Matter of Earth has been born from stardust before our star developed, and so it is originated from explosions of earlier stars and their "smoke/gas", also more harder rocks and dust were brought "together" to form the earth, formed from gas ("smoke" coming together. Moon of earth were born from collision of Earth and planet size of Mars, so "sky" (our galaxy and star-system) and Earth BOTH coming together most likely means that (and bombardment of asteroids). If Bedouin back then realized that earth and sky have same origin, it is BIG miracle itself. Later Earth came "together" ALSO WITH ITSELF when it cooled down and were divided into different layers, and when continents formed super-continents.

Shortly, description of creation goes like this:

25:54 "It is He Who has created man (/mankind) from WATER..."

Humans were created from water, and life emerged from water, when evolution began. It does not matter if that water was in early seas, meteors in space or in other planets.

Logically it is how animals were created by evolution too, mentioned in earlier Sura.

24:45 "Allah has created every animal from WATER..."

But this is all that is mentioned about creation of animals. Reason is here below, in larger scale of evolution of different species, many of those have not much common but origin in water.

This can be understood in this: Humans are mentioned to have origins in water, but also (in case of Adam/Hawwa, first humans, according to DNA-testing "original mother" of all people living now lived about 160 000-200 000 years ago) in food, as one element of creation is ground, meaning food we get from ground of earth. From that food we grow all of our cells in our body, as do also animals we eat. And from that we produce our sperm, that has been mentioned as a third element of creation of Adam (6:133 "...He raised you up from the posterity of other people". Connection between food and sperm Adam was created is mentioned here, mentioning (through first humans origin of all humans in) stomach as a source of sperm:

86:6-7 "He is created from a drop emitted- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs."

6:133 "Thy Lord is self-sufficient, full of Mercy: if it were His will, He could destroy you, and in your place appoint whom He will as your successors, even as He raised you up from the posterity of other people."
17:99 "See they not that Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth, is able to create the like of them. And He has decreed for them an appointed term, whereof there is no doubt. But the unjust refuse but disbelief."
14:19 "..If He so will, He can remove you and put (in your place) a new creation!

So there is animals that do not have offspring by sperm, but all animals fits inside "(creation from) water". But even though humans would not have offspring by sperm in future (cloning etc.), body of Adam (not soul) was created from sperm (manufactured and "shaped" from "ground" through food) as it is not denied in Qur´an neither, so making sperm to have its part in creation of whole mankind. But that person could be not only Adam (Adam is not mentioned there), but earlier human-like relative from who’s sperm (BODY OF) Adam and/or Hawwa were created (“Eve” WAS NOT according to Quran created from ribs of Adam). There actually is femine-form in arabics, so who was first? Are we from offspring of Adam/Hawwa or (ALSO) from their “father/mother”? Did they have one common parent from earlier human-like (also?)?

38:72 says that when Allah created Adam He “breathed” His spirit into him, according to 2:34 immediate command (in 38:72) to bow down after that “breathing” happened only after Adam was told name of things, so maybe his spirit was created before it came to earth into human body, explaining how according to Bible Jesus said he was before Abraham was on Earth.

37:11 "Just ask their opinion: are they the more difficult to create, or the (other) beings We have created? Them have We created out of a sticky clay!"

This ayat shows that we really are basically normal animals, we even share 98% of our genes with chimpanzees. So if simps were easy to create, so are we.

To finish it all, Qur´an gives "biggest possible scale" in creation, as "Jinns" (other than humans/animals in earth created BEFORE humans, descriptions fit into advanced civilisation that are mentioned to be able to fly or be invisible/in human-form):

55:15-16 "And He created jinns from fire free of smoke: Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?"

From stars all planets and matter have formed, and with all propability there is older life and civilisations than on this planet. And after us in this planet can be something totally different:

4:133 "If it were His will, He could destroy you, o mankind, and create another race; for He hath power this to do."

42:29 "And among His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the living creatures He has scattered through them: And He has power to gather them (heavens & earth / creatures) together when He wills."

55:33 "O ye assembly of jinns and men! If it be ye can pass beyond the zones of the heavens and the earth, pass ye! Not without authority (/permission) shall ye be able to pass!"

---1. PAUL IS NOT A BEAST OR ANTI-CHRIST OR FALSE PROPHET.
tell me, do you muslim's actually read the Bible or twist it to your own liking ?---

You worship Jewish prophet/Messiah (Messiah not said to be God in prophesies)! Jesus did not actually say "I am god, worship me" anywhere... Why? Why on Earth? Because he wanted to nail us Muslims too into crusifixion?


---let me give you a brief history about paul according to the Bible. true, paul was a persecutor of early christians, on his way to Damascus to persecute more christians got 'arrested' by God, in the process was blinded, got his eyesight restored by a disciple God used and was converted to a CHRISTIAN.----

So he saw Christians fleeing under persecutions into another villages and converting there more people to Christianity. You should then understand in somepoint that you are losing war, at least in longer period of time. After all, Paul was fanatical Jew who just wanted to get rid of Christianity he saw as a danger for Judaism. And disciple Ananias was described to be "new Christian" in Bible, Paul could have sent him before him to affirm his "conversion". Why not to destroy Christianity from inside, as Jews will not go into worshipping a prophet...


--- I'LL LIKE TO NOTE THAT THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS THREAD PLAINLY LAID MORE EMPHASIS ON PAUL (OR SAUL BEFORE HIS CONVERSION) PERSECUTING CHRISTIANS AND DID NOT PAY ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT HE HIMSELF BECAME A CHRISTIAN AFTERWARDS.---

Shatan uses all tricks he can.


---2. if you say paul is beast, then it means you muslims pick certain portions of the Bible and misinterprete or misconcept. perhaps y'all haven't read the Book or Revelations. in this Book, john a disciple of Jesus was on ht eisland of patmos when he had the revelations. NOW NOTE: THE BEAST WAS TO APPEAR IN THE FUTURE. SO HOW THEN CAN PAUL BE THE ANTI-CHRIST? THE BEAST AN ANTI-CHRIST WAS TO APPEAR IN LATER GENERATIONS/FUTURE AS AT THEN!!!!! ---

Did Jesus mention about Paul? Give himany permit to be head-figure in church, even in Bible? Did Jesus mention about any upcoming mysterious prophesies posted from (unconfirmed id) "John" in some island, that we should listen/trust by order of some authority?

Even church itself argued about should "book of revelations" be in final Bible.

---3. if you say paul is a false prophet, then how possibly can it be that books concerning Paul are in the Bible, THE WORD OF GOD?! ok, let me guess, the white man did some evil machinations and changed the Bible right?!! THE POINT I'M TRYING TO BRING OUT IS THAT PAUL COULDN'T HAVE BEEN IN THE BIBLE , HIS BOOKS AMONG THE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE IF HE WAS A FALSE PROPHET. if you call paul a false prophet then you are discrediting the Bible .---

God, Jesus or any other prophet did not say that all words in "Bible" will be His Words. In Qur´an He says so.

as i understood, abdurahmeen meant that only evidence he gives matters and should matter for you, not his gender or what he is like. his evidence can help you to be saved from fire, his gender can´t.

i would be intrested that does passages/interpretations in Bible / Qur´an / hadiths allow or denye possibility that Jesus has already made his second coming, and possible is on it even as we speak who knows, could it have been happening during many life-times and generations?

meaning that as Jesus said in bible, that he will be back before last of diciples will die, could it be that he is only person experiencing thing that hindus and buddhists are after now, maybe even thousands of years after some prophets there long time ago? if Jewish prophets had prophesies about Messiah, why not them too (and from that then were misunderstood and transfered to include other as well?

and so what if descriptions in hadiths / Qur´an are from some certain life or from his last life?

i could not imagine any better quote after these writings of abdurahmeen:

002.062
YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

these were also added recently on abdurahmeens page in angelfire, again pointing out how peaceful his interpretation actually is for both religions:



Most popular Christian interpretation is that here Jesus told how disciples were hired in "first" and "third" hours as apostles (it does not make sense at all, as all disciples were "hired" at once by Jesus, not in two time periods, and why would apostles be unhappy about later Christians entering also paradise, even before them, as they were one to convert them?), and that from "sixth" to "ninth" hour is about apostle Paul (again, why it would have been said to happen between these two time-periods, and not just in one?), and that in last hour is talked about all later Christians (who will come "first even though they were last", why would they enter paradise before apostles, and especially why would apostles go mad about them going one second before them into paradise, as all mentioned in parallel are saved anyway?).

But point here is, why did Jesus, propably most intelligent human ever lived, used so complicated words just to describe most simple of things, about God giving reward for believers? Could it not have been said just by few simple words that everybody would understand (especially if it is not even prophecy)? Did he have to promote his ability for making parallels? Did he use "big words" just to confuse us, especially Muslims who see this as prophecy?

At least in my interpretation there is not only prophecy about coming of Islam, and description/time-schedule about "People of the Book" mentioned in Qur´an 600 years later, but also warning that people should follow most recent prophet to be saved for sure, allthough believers of previous religions have been right too, and have been saved.



Matt.22:45 “If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he (Jesus) be his son?"

Here only possibility could be that spirit of Jesus were born before David, and so Jesus was in “high rank” compared to David (Jesus is most mentioned prophet in Qur´an). Idea about Jesus being son of David, from descent of David, refutes idea about actual “son of God”, as if Jesus had no human father, then he did not have genetically background in David that was from family of Joseph. So why would God be his genetic father then, if even David was not? So Jesus confirmed evolution (see my writing in link "Human development / Evolution", and there about Jesus saying he was before Abraham), and that he is “son of God”, prophet, as Jews understood it, but not son of Allah...

this is how abdurahmeen presented this writing in other form on other discussion forum, could be more easy to understand for somebody, as some even claimed that his topic should be closed because it is dangerous (?)!

i think you can see from here that he is giving great example about similarities and common points for inter-religion communication between Islam and Christianity. that even previous pope encouraged, this can bring two religion more closer to each others.

JESUS PROPHESIED ISLAM, AND DESCRIBED "PEOPLE OF THE BOOK":

(These are connected to Luke.5:36-39, why new religion is necessary instead of change of old religions.)

1 "hour" = approx. 200 hundred years, from Abraham/Jacob and Jews 1800 BC to Islam 632 AC = 2400 / 12 hours = 200

Matt.20:1. "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner (God) who went (send prophets) out early in the morning (first hour in Jewish calendar was 5 o´clock, so Abraham/Jews in 1800-1700 BC) to hire men (believers) to work (for His glory) in his vineyard (Earth). 2. He agreed to pay them a denarius (paradise) for the day (world history) and sent them into his vineyard.

3. "About the third hour (1200-1100 BC Sabians/Zarathustrians) he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing (Judaism had not spread). 4.He told them, 'You also (besides Judaism) go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5. So they went.

"He went out again about the sixth hour (600 BC beginning of prophesies about Messiah) and the ninth hour (around 1 AC Jesus were born) and did the same thing (created Christians and Christianity).
6. About the eleventh hour (500-700 AC) he went out (send prophet) and found still others (Arabs) standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing (Arabs had not had religions through prophets, only polytheism-paganism)?'

7. " 'Because no one has hired us (Arabs were so despised that even Byzantium or Persia did not want to conquer and convert them),' they answered."He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'

8. "When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages (what they deserve), beginning with the last ones hired (Muslims) and going on to the first (Jews).'

9. "The workers (Muslims) who were hired about the eleventh hour (500-700 AC) came and each received a denarius. 10. So when those came who were hired first (Jews), they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner (God). 12. 'These men who were hired last (Muslims) worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day (persecutions, slavery, occupations).'

13. "But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14. Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15. Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous (you want to keep God for your nation only)?'

(26)

16. "So the last (Muslims) will be first, and the first (Jews) will be last."

-----------------------------------------
1 "year" = approx. 600 years, from Abraham / Jacob and so Jews 1800 BC to Islam 632 AC = 2400 / 4 = 600


Luke.13:6. Then he told this parable: "A master (God) had a fig tree (symbol of Israel in Bible), planted in his vineyard (Earth), and he went to look for fruit (results) on it, but did not find any. 7. So he said to the man (Jesus) who took care of the vineyard (Judaism only true religion in the world then), 'For three (1800) years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil (why not to do better religion)?'

8. " 'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one (600) more year(s), and I'll dig around it and fertilize it (make world ready for Islam in Middle-East). 9. If it bears fruit next year (in 600 years), fine! If not, then cut it down (Judaism and its sect/branch Christianity).' "
-----------------------------------------

[color=Black]Quite a nice write up. But two things are not clear to me. Are you saying that the word "dust" as stated in the bible is not to be taken figuratively? If you do, on what basis are you founding this assumption. What scientific or cultural evidence exists to support this claim? Again, if you meant that the word "dust" or to use your own word "earth ground/ clay" is not to be taken figuratively and is to be construed to mean sperm, would this not be a little contradictory? You stated yourself, in your closing remarks and i quote "35:1 "Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, Who made the angels, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four (pairs): He adds to Creation as He pleases: for Allah has power over all things." If you agree that God created us "out of nothing" where did the semen come from?[/color]

this was what abdurahmeen wrote in introduction of his book on web (concerning creation from ground):

"So we can connect this development also to other species living before, turning to "ashes" even then, coming building blocks for us too,"

So this "dust", ground, is just recycled. when earth was created, so was that ground, and basics for that ground were created even earlier from stars that died. those stars were created from (earlier stars and) beginning of universe after big bang, when atoms were created.

Qur´an states:

21:30 "Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece (/as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder (/then We parted them)? We made from water every living thing, Will they not then believe?"

heavens (with heavens) and earth were together before big bang. "everything living from water" described how on earth evolution (and so animals and plants, and so eventually dead material on top of rocky ground producing furtile soil, producing later also food and so food eating animals, sperm and eventually humans)  had its BEGINNING in water. and so water had its beginning in "nothing" before.

same pattern is also in description of creation of jinns before creation of humans (abdurahmeen explains this too on his site), they are told to be created from "fire without smoke", and from (earlier) stars (that died) atoms were born, but that does not mean that (at least some) jinns could not be created from water or later than humans, it is just telling about larger SCALE of possibilities in creation, and common "start point" for all those different creations is this "fire without smoke" (and so as it is mentioned, and as humans were mentioned to be created from something that came after stars, from view of Allah creation of jinns happened before humans eventhough there would be earlier species in space), for all animals most latest common "starting point" for creation is from water, as all animals do not eat food from ground or reproduce by sperm. common for all humans is at least creation of Adam/Hawwa from sperm.

[color=Black]My understanding of basic biology is that the male semen fertilizes the male egg. Where did God get the semen from and who did he copulate with to fertilize her eggs? Do you begin to understand? According to you, even the Koran says that God created out of nothing. If God created out of nothing where, then, did you get the semen insight from?[/color]

abdurahmeen explained that sperm (for body of Adam) came from earlier human-like species, and according to evolution-theory there happened leap of evolution, mutation.

and you were explained this "from nothing" earlier, it is from (before) beginning of universe even before atoms (and even universe) were formed. 

[color=Black]You stated that God created Jesus from the dust. Let me quote your text "3:59 "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was." Where did this come from? At what point did God create Jesus and from which dust? [/color]

no matter how you think Jesus was given birth, when Jesus were created into womb, he were definitely created in some mechanical stage of human developement, nobody comes from nothing, Jesus was not spirit but man in flesh. so if it were virgin-birth, either God created that sperm into womb directly (from something that Mary ate?), or then Jesus was created already as an embryo/child into a womb, using same materials that excist in our food, and so in ground too.

anyway Jesus or Adam did not have (modern) human father (or at least nobody but Allah knows about it).

[color=Black][b]Did you not read in John 1:1 that in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God? At which point in this your exposition of evolution did God create Jesus? Are you asserting that Jesus was created in the same mode as Adam? If so, did you ever read that "the spirit of God visit Mary and she conceived of a child". Are you suggesting that this biblical testimony is faulty or inaccurate? If it is, I would surely want to hear about it.[/[/b]color]

beginning of gospel of John is actually direct replicate from writings of Pthylo of Alexandria (15 BC - 30 AC), greek philosopher, only words "word was god´s" (in original text) were transformed into "word was God" (in bible), it is only small error between two very similar letters in greeks.

[color=Black]Your theory is asserting that Adam's "spirit was created before he came to earth". From my understanding of simple English, coming to a place means that the person who is coming must be moving from one point in other to arrive at another. Where was Adam coming from?[/color]

according to Islam his spirit was created first into paradise. it could also explain why Jesus said that he "was before Abraham", at least spirits of Adam and Jesus were created (MUCH) earlier than their bodies (again new "similitude" Qur´an mentioned). in old jewish faiths there even is concept about "waiting room" from where spirit is taken into a body.

[color=Black]Adam, according to my bible was greater in the image and likeness of God, molded out of dust in exactitude to God's image. My bible further tells me that God breathed in him the breath of life. My interpretation of this, is that God shared a part of his own soul with Adam. Which is in contra-distinction to your "his spirit was created before he came to earth in human body".[/color]

so you trust into bible. but what if humans have genes of apes, and those are "image of God", is god ape? and why is not adam god, if he had part of God´s spirit, and did not have even father?

[color=Black]I would suggest that you research further on this topic. Thanks, though, for taking the time to express your views. And may God guide you in all that you do. My sincere regards.[/color]

I would suggest you should think more, also outside of your bible. blessings for you too.

"Teach them, brother!"

my words too exactly! this was my favorite too from writings of adurahmeen. i feel lucky for happening to find this forum.

if this gets new reverts even here on this forum, should we help abdurahmeen to share information also with others?

i think that after all, that was his most important motivation for putting his writing here...

I like about this sincerely fresh approach of abdurahmeen, he is pointing out maby good things that has not been noticed and discussed about.

bible is free for all to read and debate, and i have not seen any christians challenging or correcting abdurahmeen in any way, in time of over half a month!

and i think he has had fan out of me with his way to see things...

I am starting to like about your way of explaining things, good job, but do you think that christians are going to accept these ideas about man they appreciate very much?

sounds very interesting and easy to understand, but have tought about possibility that evolution is not way how creation happened?

would then we only have old interpretations?