₦airaland Forum

garyarnold:
Since there was NO tithing in the Bible that went to a church, but there WAS a tithe that went to the widows, orphans, stranger, etc., wordtalk has no basis to say that the tithe SHOULD go to the church other than that is wordtalk's own personal preference.

Are you tired now? Everyone who understands English knows I was not using 'SHOULD' in the dry legalistic sense you conjured up. Those who have read my comments and tried to see my position have not argued to the contrary to try and drive "obligatory" or "mandatory" into my posts as you have tried hard to do several times - and failed. There's hardly anything I have left for you now than deep pity - because you are the only person who seems to boast of an education and yet completely lack any demonstration of it.

nuclearboy:
@wordtalk:

Apologies but what Enigma is saying is obvious to many of us!

Its easy (as it were) to say you believe in "church" tithing! Its a totally differentything to say Deut 14 splits tithes amongst "fatherless", "widows", "stranger" AND "levite"! One "insists" its church ONLY whist the other says it could go to others! The church only advocates say church should do the giving to others (as church sees fit) whist the supposed anti-tithers say "we can give ourselves as led".

nuclearboy, I understand you - but what I can't wrap around my head is the idea that "seems" to crop up in Enigma's repeated question. I NOWHERE argued that tithing must be done "ONLY in Church" in order to be tithing - I merely stated that I believe it SHOULD be done in church. Further, if it were a matter of administering tithes to widows and other needy causes, I noted that tithes in Church COULD be so administered in that manner. If he believes that is not what should be the case, then I don't have any bones to pick on that, and I respect what conclusions anyone wants to hang on that.

The insinuation that I argued for "ONLY" in Church is what I cannot stand for - since that is not what I argued in my posts. I only stated that this is what I do, and it is what i would encourage others who tithe to do. IF therefore someone else wants to tithe in other ways, THEN IT IS UP TO THEM!

The repeated question is simply redundant and unnecessary. That is why I can't stand for anyone putting words into my mouth or drawing conclusions that I did not infer or insinuate.

What Enigma is asking you is thus simple - do you believe tithes can only be paid to church (and thus that its only church that can disburse) or do yoy stand with those who say God can lead a man to give directly to a cause outside of church?

I was careful to use such words as -
(a) I BELIEVE
(b) it SHOULD be in Church (this is not the same thing as concluding it is ONLY in Church)
(c) that tithes in Church COULD be used to the same ends

What this whole drama is all about is to the tendency to see only one side - and if that is not expressly stated in my comments as the reader wants to see it, then hot air is let off in many directions. What that seems to me is that the same people who are talking about "VOLUNTARY" would be contradicting their talk of freedom in other people's choices if they insist on jusr one aspect of giving outside church. I hope it should be clear at this point that I do not stand for rigid ideologies, and the words in my comments are clear enough to convey that.

Enigma:
wordtalk is avoiding the question because, I repeat, wordtalk's position is exactly the same i.e. it is not "tithing" ---- even when saying that tithing is "voluntary".

I did not avoid the question. Please answer the question I asked if you may, and then I shall address any further complain you have.

garyarnold:
Again, wordtalk takes what I say out of context.

No, I did not! There was absolutely no need for you to be playing these dubious games when I have made clear over and over again that I do not stand for any hint of mandatory tithing! That should have been clear enough for you to relax and not try to pursue the effort to force that into my position. Since you want to be dumb by frantically pursuing dead leads, carry on - I'll help you achieve that folly!

When I quote the dictionary definition of tithe, I was comparing it to the Biblical tithe - that they had nothing in common other than tenth.  The modern-day dictionary doesn't define tithe as tenth.  It goes on to include what the tenth is on, and where the tenth is given.

That is not the issue, so don't even try to flip it over as pancake! You have tried to argue "obligation or duty" into my position - and that was why you quoted those dictionaries and came to this conclusion: "wordtalk is saying what should be done, or what shall be done, as an OBLIGATION or DUTY". To have even attempted such is a deliberate cavil on your part - bearing in mind that I have shown you again and again that such is not the case concerning what I have tried to discuss. You're desperate to show how dumb you are without anyone's help, that is why this issue continues to bother you!

Are you really bent on caviling, garyarnold? Why is it that you're hard pressed to force obligatory or mandatory tithing into my posts where I have made clear that is not what I have been showing all along? This deliberately misrepresentation is why I worry that you're trying to just lie at all costs!

garyarnold:
@wordtalk said, "I believe that tithing should be given in Church"

American Heritage Dictionary:
should (sh‹d) aux.v. Past tense of shall. 1. Used to express obligation or duty:

Webster's Dictionary:
Syn.: must

Wordtalk is saying what should be done, or what shall be done, as an OBLIGATION or DUTY.

Sounds a little legalistic to me.

I looked at some of your past arguments, sir. This is what you posted from the same dictionaries:

The American Heritage Dictionary, Third Edition - 1994: Tithe - A tenth part of one's annual income contributed voluntarily or due as a tax, especially for the support of the clergy or church.

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary - latest edition: Tithe - a tenth part of something paid as a voluntary contribution or as a tax especially for the support of a religious establishment.

I am unaware that you could descend so low to playing these antics. But that's just the revulsion I feel about your tendecy to be duplicitious. Well done!

nuclearboy:
@Enigma:

Highlighting the words he did shows he has answered the questions and confirmed the veracity "according" to the person engaged in such activity!

Well, I thought so - but there again, I am open to consider where I possibly may not have answered his question. Even the way you tried to answer would be somewhat along such things as I would think. However, -

Your question is thus better suited to wordtalk than me - I might actually be considered crazy with some I did and stingy with others! But the decision came from "inside"

I don't know how else to repeat and explain my answer. If he tries to help out, then I will look at it again.

^^ I want to answer your question, that is why I would like you to help me do so. If you do, then I may either -

(a) see what I have been missing
(b) agree that I have or have not answered it previously
(c) disagree with what you have in mind in that question

I am willing to discuss/answer - but if you feel I should not, I won't push it.

Enigma:
^^^ OK I will ask the question specifically!

There's really no need to do so. I've answered that question so many times and only just explained and expanded on my answer. It is possible I may be missing something - it is very possible. So, please tell me: what would you call this:

If a person takes a tenth of his income every month and gives it to widows, orphans, other needy people etc, is it appropriate to call the actions of that person "tithing" AND is that portion of income that the person so sets aside a (or even his) "tithe"?

nuclearboy:
@wordtalk:

Please! I am honest in saying that (to me) the level of intellect displayed by current participants (aside a lemon) is such that we can do without friction!

What the others are trying to do is get you to have a "defined" position! if you knew the history of this issue here, you'd totally understand. Please let's keep this civil - the thread destroyers will soon be here - let's learn before they arrive.

PLEASE!

Okay, I respect that and will try to comply. I don't have all the details of how people feel about this issue on this forum, and I should bear that in mind so we can be mature in our dialogues. I do hope that garyarnold will try and be reasonable in like manner, since it does no one any good to be slinging mud with name-calling.

Enigma:
^^^ Actually the "lemon" did make a useful contribution: ---- that if a person sets aside a tenth of income to give to widows, orphans etc, then "it is not appropriate to call it a tithe" because it is not given in "church". This is in reality the same position as wordtalk's except wordtalk doesn't want to say so openly.

Please, don't put words in my mouth. You pay your taxes where you reside, and you can use your own hands to type what your tongue wants to say. What I will not do is be pressured into holding placards for fictitious anti-tithing anthems.

I reposted my reply several times to show that there was absolutely NO NEED for you to be drumming up fictitious cases. Since I don't stand in support in of manipulating people to tithe or give or not, I don't see any reason to start arguing to contradict my position. I have said in essence, among other things that -

(a) I believe that tithing should be given in Church
(b) this COULD provide a channel where ministry for the care of widows, orphans etc could be administered from
(c) - but others feel that they cannot give money in Church:
- that is, they cannot give tithes, they cannot give other forms of offerings
(d) IF THAT BE THE CASE, then IT IS UP TO THEM

The (d) above is to show that I do not believe they must be forced or manipulated to give anything at all, or be manipulated to define somebody's giving in a rigid pre-determined form. "It is UP TO THEM" - they should exercise their choice to do as they so wish! If they give something else that is meaningful (or if they feel they do not want to give in Church or elsewhere), I don't have a quarrel with them. If I then try to overwhelm them to change their minds, then I am no longer demonstrating my position of VOLUNTARY giving consistent with what I affirm.

I should not have gone this far to explain anything, since I thought my answer should have sufficed.

Look, mr Gary, I'm actually tired of your dubious arguments here and there! Aside from the fact that you're not consistent in your assertions, I find it no longer amusing that you tend to hop between two axion in order to impress the forum. Nothing personal, but just so you know.

garyarnold:
The Biblical definition (God's definition) of tithe is NOT the same as the Hebrew definition of tithe.

My dear sir, they are THE VERY SAME definitions all through. If you say that they are not the same in applications, I can agree wholeheartedly with you there, but not on the definition. The application and definition are not to be confused in these things - while the definitions are the same, the applications are not. Isn't that simple and clear enough?

The definition of tithe is tenth.

Please tell me: did I use ANOTHER DEFINITION since talking about "voluntary tithes"? Did this definition of "tithe" as "tenth" emerge as a neologism from 'the whole MANDATORY TITHING scam during the late 1800s'?? Why are you acknowledging that definition as correct, but complained about my use of the same thing?

God's definition of His tithe is in Leviticus 27:30-33, and the application is in Numbers 18. You don't seem to comprehend the difference between the Hebrew definition and God's definition, which I also call the Biblical definition.

The DEFINITION is the same all through the Bible. Leviticus 27:30-33 is the APPLICATION (because that is what tells you what the tithes consisted of - that is, tithing in the Law applied to food, which is different in the case of Genesis 14). Numbers 18 shows its STIPULATIONS (because the Law here spells out the the ground as well as the beneficiaries of the Levitical tithes, and why it was stipulated in such a manner).

I am sorry if these things are hard for you to understand. But if someone wanted to know what the word "tithe" meant, we know such a person is asking us to DEFINE the word "tithe" - and the short, simple answer without doubt or confusion is the same you gave earlier: 'The definition of tithe is tenth.'. If thereafter such a person wanted to understand its various applications, then we could move on to Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. Is that not simple enough?

When you say you aren't paying tithes but rather giving tithes, you infer that you are now voluntarily doing what was mandatory under the Mosaic law, and you are not.

No sir - a gazillion times NO! I can give tithes VOLUNTARILY even if I derived my Biblical basis for doing so from the Old Testament (including Genesis through the Law and to the prophets). Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 used the Law of Moses to teach on Christian giving without requiring Christians to do so MANDATORILY!

You are merely giving a tenth of something, (in your case, your income), and it makes you feel good to call it tithing so that it relates to the same word used in the Bible. But you are comparing apples to oranges.

When you argue for your own type of giving, did they not have a foundation in the OLD TESTAMENT? Would we then say you are comparing anaconda to dendrobaena? What kind of dubious language are you amusing yourself with?

garyarnold:
How is that bordering on a deliberate lie? I nowhere said that you preach or favor mandatory tithing. I said you have taken the DEFINITION of tithing from those who started the whole MANDATORY TITHING scam during the late 1800s. Their definition is the definition you use. You don't use ANY Biblical definition.

The DEFINITION of tithes which I have used was not started by "the whole MANDATORY TITHING scam during the late 1800s" - so again, that is another deliberate lie. The Biblical DEFINITION is what I have used all through, but somehow that is what was biting you around before you started contradicting the plain text of Scripture until I corrected you here:
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-724424.224.html#msg8869065

After I made that correction, what did you say? Did you not concede? Do you have such short memory as to have forgotten too quickly? Was it not the same YOU who said "The word "tithe" means a tenth. Correct"? What did you mean by that before coming up with the crap of a definition from "mandatory tithing" of 1800s? Your lies and more lies are still lies. End of.

You are wrongfully stuck that the Biblical definition of tithe is a tenth. That was the definition BEFORE God gave HIS definition.

Okay, and for all that you were the same person who said: "The word "tithe" means a tenth. Correct"? Did you try to say that was "wrongfuly stuck" back then before coming up with these excuses to blow smoke and deceive your unsuspecting readers? Has 'tithe' been DEFINED any other way by those who have produced Biblical resources and dictionaries?

If you are going to ignore God's application of His tithe, then you leave the door open to calling ANY tenth a tithe, and the giving of ANY tenth to anyone, tithing.

Between DEFINITION and APPLICATION, what has been your headache? From being inconsistent, you now come down to the level of lying to impress, innit?

garyarnold:
Of course I don't preach anything close to a voluntary tithe because a voluntary tithe with no definite Biblical definition as to what constitutes the tithe is meaningless.

Good - and I never supposed you were ever close to what others have been reading in my comments. This was why I had to make some observations to nuclearboy earlier that I do not find the anti-tithing position to be either meaningful or fruitful. Now nuclearboy can understand why I was not going along with the idea that I had become an "anti-tither".

Problem is, wordtalk, you want to make the definition and set the rules.

No, that's not true. I asked for your definition - you gave it simply as a tenth. Your problem is that you're making every effort to confuse the unsuspecting between DEFINITION and APPLICATION.

You want to say that if one gives a tenth of their income to the church they are a tither, but if I give a tenth of what is in my pocket and say that I am a tither I am full of crap.   YOU want to set the rules.

I called out your crap because you were reducing tithing to the load of your trash from your trash can. That is what made me realise you're not to be taken seriously.

Wordtalk has lowered himself to accept the definition and rules of the tithe to that of those pastors who teach tithing as mandatory, but wordtalk preaches that it is voluntary.  Still, wordtalk is using THEIR definition of tithing, NOT God's definition.  Not very Godly in my opinion.

Your opinion remains the same crap all through. I nowhere favoured any hint of mandatory tithing, and your repeating that insinuation is bordering on a deliberate lie. If you don't know, ask others and they will tell you what I stand for. I can't let you drop your lies here and there like poo all over the place - so go back and remind yourself:
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-739830.64.html#msg8973952

Since God gave us His definition and His instructions, I am not going to insult God by changing His definition and instructions and then call it tithing.

Lol, God never set you up as His personal secretary to assume others are insulting Him because your assertions don't stand up when examined - not even when you try to force your lies into my position or posts.

Enigma:
To be honest, I did not expect any different.  In fact I had one more question which I didn't bother to ask; but now I think I'll just put it on the thread for people to ponder.

Em, a little honesty will do. You can deny that I answered your question - you may not like my answer, and that is a different thing.

If a person takes the tenth of his income every month, buys food stuff, clothing, hygiene equipment etc and takes them to "church" in the expectation that the "church" will use these things to help widows, orphans and other needy people etc, is the person a tither?

What does my answer mean to you?

2. I believe that tithing should be given in Church where ministry for the care of widows, orphans and other needy causes could be (please note: "could be" administered from. Others feel that they cannot give money in Church - whether through tithing or other forms of offerings: it's up to them. Yet, giving in Church should not be confused with giving to other causes - they are two independent facets of this ministration.

It is up to them - because I don't try to force people into or out of something one way or another. To try to manipulate people with fictional cases is not encouraging the voluntary exercise we've been trying to discuss. I can't be pressured into holding a placard for anti-tithers so they can go home and sleep well at night.

garyarnold:
Wordtalk is not going to answer your specific question because wordtalk is a coward when it comes to answering specific questions.

Thank you, but I shall not return in kind. I hope those who cheer you up in this behaviour can notice your invectives and not try to amuse themselves when i take you to the cleaners? It is this type of pretentious self-righteousness they never notice before they crawl out seeking to preach "humility" when you're whipped to your hole.

Since tithe simply means tenth, giving any tenth should qualify as a voluntary tithe.

That's plain silly talk from you - and you know it! Readers only have to look at your profile to know that you don't preach anything close to VOLUNTARY TITHE, so please don't try to talk your crap here!

Therefore, if you take ten dollars to church, and you give one dollar, you have tithed; thus, you are a tither. If you give a tenth of anything to anyone, you are a tither.

Indeed - because we have forgotten all too soon that you are the same person who talked about giving a tithe of trash from your trash can, no?

Since wordtalk doesn't accept God's definition for His tithe as being binding now that we are under grace, there is no longer a definition for tithe other than tenth. Wordtalk has lowered himself to accept what pastors teach as the tithe today, whether mandatory or voluntary.

First off, you're trying ever harder to deceive yourself. You seem to be the only troll who has not read that I don't argue in favour of mandatory tithes - and those who have read my comments know what I have been talking about. Second, you only show you never learn anything, even though I have clarified the difference between "DEFINITION" and "APPLICATION". This is why you litter other blogs with your crap, and when you're put in your place, you crawl in here to vomit the same crap!

garyarnold:
Nowhere does it say "income."  Definition #10, however, would be the closest to income, but although profit is income, wages are not profit.

Did you contact other BIBLICAL resources? Let me give you just two:

BROWN-DRIVER BRIGGS Hebrew Definition:

1) produce, product, revenue
1a) product, yield, crops (of the earth usually)
1b) income, revenue
1c) gain (of wisdom) (figuratively)
1d) product of lips (figuratively)

and -

STRONG' HEBREW and GREEK Definitions -

תּבוּאה
tebû'âh
teb-oo-aw'
From H935; income, that is, produce (literally or figuratively): - fruit, gain, increase, revenue.

Other Dictionaries of Biblical Words may also help point to the same thing.

But here are questions I hope you would answer, and in case you didn't understand them, let me put them more simply for you:

 - (a) where in the Bible (your own favourite KJV) have you read of the word "ASSET"?

 - (b) what word do you know in the Bible that is used for INCOME and REVENUE?

 - (c) what word do you know in the Bible that is used for "ASSET"?

Enigma:
Let me try once more!

There is this fellow Mr Christian who earns 1000 per month. Every month he takes aside 100, he buys food stuff, clothing, hygiene products etc, and gives these things (not money) to widows, orphanages and other charities. He may then sometimes give 50 in church in a month or sometimes less to the church.

Is Mr Christian a "tither"?

Again my answer:

2. I believe that tithing should be given in Church where ministry for the care of widows, orphans and other needy causes could be (please note: "could be" administered from. Others feel that they cannot give money in Church - whether through tithing or other forms of offerings: it's up to them. Yet, giving in Church should not be confused with giving to other causes - they are two independent facets of this ministration.

^^

Enigma:
Let me try again: there is this fellow Mr Christian who earns 1000 per month. Every month he takes aside 100 and gives it to widows, orphanages and other charities. He may then sometimes give 50 in church in a month or sometimes less to the church.

Is Mr Christian a "tither"?

I sense that is a hypothetical case. Again, this is my answer:

2. I believe that tithing should be given in Church where ministry for the care of widows, orphans and other needy causes could be (please note: "could be" administered from. Others feel that they cannot give money in Church - whether through tithing or other forms of offerings: it's up to them. Yet, giving in Church should not be confused with giving to other causes - they are two independent facets of this ministration.

^^

Actually, I was going to pause and leave it there as nuclearboy has said. But if you can bear with my answers, then here they are:

Enigma:
1. Is the "voluntary" tithing to be done only using money or can it be done in any other form e.g. with food crops, clothing etc?

2. Is the "voluntary" tithing to be done only by giving money (or any other thing acceptable) in/to "church" or can the tither instead choose to give the "tithe" to widows, orphans or other needy charitable causes?

The one thing to observe is that tithing (or any other Christian form of giving) should not be stereotypical or legalistic. With that, I would answer that -

1. I have not argued that tithing is "ONLY MONEY" - but that should not lead to facetious remarks such as tithing 'trash from trash can'. What I tried to say is that there is good reason to include money in tithing, contrary to the popular anti-tithing argument that Biblical tithes are "only food". Many of those who tithe voluntarily express theirs through financial gifts - if others feel otherwise, I am not going to take up issues with them.

2. I believe that tithing should be given in Church where ministry for the care of widows, orphans and other needy causes could be (please note: "could be" administered from. Others feel that they cannot give money in Church - whether through tithing or other forms of offerings: it's up to them. Yet, giving in Church should not be confused with giving to other causes - they are two independent facets of this ministration.

While we're waiting to see, let me make an important observation:

nuclearboy:
"wordtalk" has expressed his own convictions - the fact that he disagrees with the RCCG position speaks volumes about his mindset - he "reasons" and what he is saying is same as what we say - "IF" it is voluntary and based on full disclosure, then it is fine! This more so when its not done for gain or as an investment but for worship as he stated. Let's cross the blindside bridge IF we get there.

My only fear was those parasites who hung on to his words as support for their own avaricious practise. Now that he has clarified his position, we both know that to these, he has become an anti-tither since he shares our position.

Lol. Actually, I'm not aching to correct anything you have said, even where you assume I've become an "anti-tither" (which I am not). I read you in context and don't think there's any issue there.

Indeed I believe in the veracity of tithing - for emphasis, I tithe in church and encourage others to do so. If people feel otherwise, there's no need for me to force or manipulate them to change their minds in order to start tithing. To force anyone to believe what I believe is not spiritual in the least, and will neither bring any glory to Christ nor even help the believer who's been forced into anything.

Having said all that, what I cannot defend are two things:

(a) the anti-tithing campaign to stop every other Christian from tithing altogether; and
(b) the pro-tithing campaign to force tithing upon all Christians

These two positions are simply noise making (my POV) and cannot be intelligently or Biblically defended. They are also quite a world apart from the idea of 'voluntary tithing' among Christians. The typical "anti-tithers" who argue that 'there's no place for tithing in Christianity' are not saying the same thing as that Christians can 'tithe voluntarily' - otherwise they will not go to great lengths to argue against tithing in the first place! To claim that these two diametrically opposed views are one and the same thing is plainly ludicrous.

However, what necessitates my comments here is the important point Enigma made: "sometimes what is left unsaid even "speaks" more volume" - and I totally agree! Which is why I'd just say that whether we tithe or express our giving in other ways, we must not ignore the serious problems of financial mismanagement, resource abuses and sacrilegious scandals from many 'pastors'. I think it should be obvious to all that these are the underlying concerns as to why many people react against any mention of tithing in the Church. These problems are deeper than arguments 'for' or 'against' tithes among Christians; and joining the anti-tithing bandwagon to campaign against tithing is not going to resolve these problems at all.

So, while affirming that Christians can indeed express their giving through tithing in a responsible manner, I don't find the anti-tithing position to be either meaningful or fruitful.

Enigma:
I will not bother to respond in any detail since your answers are revealing enough.

Should I be surprised? If you wanted to be reasonable in the first place, it would not have been difficult for you to see very simple things for what they are, rather than outsmart yourself only to return with empty air.

Enigma:
@Nuclearboy

I am afraid, I have a few things to question in wordtalk's post - especially because I have seen exactly this same sleight of hand before (a matter I expect to come to in another post).

The sleight of hand is yours, not mine. You only read what you want to see in other people's posts, since you can't afford to reason.

1. This also requires an explanation of why tithes mongers are also "concerned to the point of daggers drawn" if it is accepted that "tithing" is not compulsory but should be voluntary.

That is precisely the merry-go-round legalism that you will not find in my post. In other comments I made earlier, anyone who has good sense would see without difficulty that I don't argue as a jingoist - since that seems to be your style. I have tried to show what I believe in and can reason out from Scripture, rather than stand as a jingoist holding placards for anyone's campaigns. What I have tried to show is that there are some pastors who preach tithes as "compulsory" while others teach it as "voluntary" - yet, from other sources, many who preach tithing ('compulsory' or 'voluntary') actually themselves tithe. Anti-tithers who do not want to face up to this reality are too busy tearing their hair out to tar everyone with the same brush!

2. Bear in mind that those of us against "tithing" have repeatedly stated that we have nothing against voluntary tithing particularly if the "tither" knows that tithing is not an obligation and the concern is about the mistaken or fraudulent teaching of compulsory tithing ---- so why the vehement and frankly often rude, "daggers drawn" defence?

I am willing to take back the 'daggers drawn' if the idiom offends you in particular - that does not write off your penchant to be particullarly rude to others! It is simply an idiom ("if two people or groups are at daggers drawn, they are angry and ready to fight or argue with each other" - it was not directed at you in particular, was it? I consider the tithing and anti-tithing arguments quite unnecessary and would prefer discussions where people don't have to go down the path of name-calling, etc. - I have said so before. What antitithers often tend to do is not reason with others - which is why I don't understand why you start out with insinuations about "sleight of hand" in seeking to question my comments.

3. It is all well and good using Tunde Bakare as the one and only one example of a prominent Nigerian "pastor" who suggests tithing should be voluntary; what about the fact that overwhelmingly tithing is taught by other prominent pastors as compulsory and sometimes with various threats?

Phew! I consider this question quite mischievous. How else should I state what I have ALREADY STATED? I have stated that -
(a) I do not know EVERY PASTOR in Nigeria who preaches tithes, so I'm not going to generalise and regard them all from a default position;
(b) Also, I am aware of 'incontrovertible examples' (plural) of pastors in Nigeria who insist that tithes are compulsory
These issues have been raised by nuclearboy and he had no problems with my answers. It is not that I am not aware; nor is it a case of the so-called "overwhelming" argument. This is why I highlighted that there are many others who teach a voluntary tithe (from the NAE survey). Your question only pretends that I didn't make any reference about what you're asking!

4. What is the percentage of compulsory tithe preachers in Nigeria versus voluntary tithe preachers?

I don't know - if you do, please tell us. It is clear that the one example each I gave for either side underscores the point that I was trying to make in response to nuclearboy's questions.

5. What is the percentage of compulsory tithe preachers globally versus voluntary tithe preachers?

Oh please, knock yourself out! Since I have not made a claim about "global" stats, and you want to have issues on that, then go ahead! I have to wait for such "global  before I can reason out issues in simple terms, innit?

6. What is the percentage of tithe payers globally who see it as compulsory versus those who see it as voluntary?

I don't know. And what has that to do with what I have tried to say in replying to nuclearboy?

1. Is it only "tithing" that is based on "important factors" of "priesthood and worship"?

Did I make any such claims? This is why I'm concerned that people read what they want to see into other people's posts and then build multi-verses from their strawmen! I NOWHERE asserted what you supposed, so how does that become an issue from within my posts?

2. Is freewill giving, which is what the New Testament teaches, not based on "priesthood and worship"?

I never argued to the contrary. People are particular about tithes and tithing - and it is based on that that my answers were given. You may read something else - but a little honesty would do.

3. Even if we stick to "tithing", if a goat seller chooses to "tithe" based on "priesthood and worship" and he does so by bringing some goats into church, is that "tithing" and is that acceptable?

What for you is "acceptable"?

4. Or is the "principle" of tithing based on "priesthood and worship" confined to tithing with only money?

Strawman again! Did I make any argument that tithing was based on "ONLY MONEY"? Where did I make such an assertion? Please quote me.

Let us stop here for now --- but as hinted, I have quite a lot more to say.

Nobody stops you from saying what you have to say - you might be setting up strawmen to knock down for yourself.

Edited for spelling:

@nuclearboy,

Thank you for your comments - much appreciated. However, let me first explain what I meant by this -

even from within Nigeria I don't think that there's not even a single pastor that does not preach tithes on voluntary basis - so the highlighted part in your comment is inaccurate

- (a) that does not mean that all pastors who teach tithes do so on voluntary basis
- (b) that simply means that, at the very least, there could be a pastor who does so on voluntary basis

Now on to your enquiry -

nuclearboy:
IF YOU ARE SHOWN specific incontrovertible example of respected "men" of God insisting that tithes are compulsory for Christians, and a requirement for salvation, will you take back the above statement?

No. Why? Because I have explained what I meant just above. The 'incontrovertible example' is not even the issue, as I never asserted there were no pastors who ever preached compulsory tithes in Nigeria; rather, I was asking if there were ANY who could not be referenced as doing so on voluntary basis.

Now, just so you know, I am aware of 'incontrovertible examples' (plural) of pastors in Nigeria who insist that tithes are compulsory - that is why I have referenced the survey from the NAE (National Evangelical Association -  https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-739830.0.html#msg8969843  ) on post #22. Further to that, I have an article that references Pastor Enoch A. Adegboye of RCCG as an example of a "compulsory tithe" preacher, and I don't agree with his views - see this:

OBLIGATORY TITHES. There are some who believe that tithes are obligatory for Christians today. This is expressed in various ways, including its being “required” or “mandatory”. The consequences of not tithing would mean that such believers are sinning against God – which in certain strains of their argument would imply that these folks are expressly qualifying themselves for divine judgement in hell.(1)

http://givingtithes.com/how-christians-think-about-tithing/

However, I think why some are concerned about this issue to the point of 'daggers drawn' is because a lot of people (not everyone) have assumed that all pastors who even remotely mention tithes/tithing from within Nigeria must by default be preaching a "mandatory" or "compulsory" tithes. Example to the reference from nlMediator in his argument that - "Not one of them I know or have heard makes any exceptions" (although he explained his context, and I don't want to push it any further).

I don't know all the pastors who preach tithing to their congregations in Nigeria; but let me draw from a few sources even on this forum where a Nigerian pastor stands as an example of voluntary tithes: Pastor Tunde Bakare of LatterRain Assembly -

Tithes are to be used to take care of widows, the helpless, and services in the house of God. Why should they come to you to say we want to pay NEPA bills, we want to pay church staff? People that are working in the ministry have to be paid and the organisation has to be run. But it’s never compulsory. If anybody tells you if you don’t pay tithe you  will remain tight, greed in his heart is influencing that because Christ has become the cross for us. . . .
Do I pay tithe? Definitely. But I don’t make it a law for everybody. I do from my earnings because I don’t depend on church offerings. My hands, like Paul’s, provided for my necessities. I pay my tax like any other citizen of this country. I pay from my legitimate earnings. If I have to wait for them to give on Sundays before I send my children to school and eat, then something is wrong.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-718091.0.html

So, while I have given an example each of Nigerian pastors for compulsory and voluntary tithes, I don't think every pastor who preaches tithes should be tarred with the same brush.

Do you believe payment or non-payment "tithes" determines a human's success in life and that non-tithers are cursed?

I believe in the veracity of tithing - both from first-hand experiences of real people I know, as well as testimonies of others whom I have not met in person. I was once a vehement anti-tither myself, until I encountered a Spirit-filled and mature believer who turned my world around with just one simple question that left me speechless!

However, what I can say is this: it is not only through tithing that believers can become successful financially and otherwise. My conviction is that tithing is based on two important factors (priesthood and worship), and these two factors stand above every other consideration in a believer's life and ministry. So, if someone is not moved to express their giving this way, there should not be a do-and-die argument to bend such a person to do so. What the anti-tither should not do is join a band-wagon to campaign that every Christian must-needs stop tithing altogether.

Also, do I believe that a Christian who does not tithe is under a curse? No - that is not my theology or hermenuetical principle, as I cannot defend that idea in light of the New Testament. What I have tried to maintain is that the blessings of the Old Testament could apply to the Christian, but the curses under the old covenant do not (see my comment here in post #434) -

5.  The curses of the Law may not apply to Christians, but the blessings do.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-724424.416.html#msg8887070

As stated, this is not an argument I wish to wade into ! "yes" and "no" are simple honest answers I will appreciate and thank you for

I apologise for going beyond the requested 'yes' and 'no'. I just find sometimes that people can build a multi-universe from a simple statement, and that's why I had to explain myself so as not to risk misreadings.

garyarnold:
If you want to use a version of the Bible for children, you will find the word income.

Income and increase do NOT mean the same thing.

Even babes can easily understand the things that you are forever struggling to deny. In your world, "tebuah" is difficult for you to grasp, but then you have NEVER ONCE answered the very simple questions I asked you -

- where in the Bible (your own favourite KJV) have you read of the word "ASSET"?
- What does the Hebrew word 'TEBUAH' mean to you?
By extension, what word do you know in the Bible that is used for INCOME and REVENUE - and is it WRONG to have said that 'tebuah' also includes the meaning of INCOME and REVENUE?

Gary Arnold, I have explained my views in my comments; but why are these simple questions proving so difficult for you after several replies?

dare2think:
What exactly are people missing from paying tithes and who judges and decides what they miss?

Does Tithing draw you closer to God and makes you achieve the ultimate goal- Heaven- ?

Who decides the relevance of this activity?

My dear dare2think, I have answered these questions in my previous comments. You're repeating the questions in other verbiage, and it makes no difference to the answers already given, some of which you even quoted. If you don't tithe, nobody is going to arrest you - do as your heart tells you without worrying over what others have decided to do for themselves. The problem arises when anti-tithers take up a campaign to totally stop Christians expressing their giving in the form of tithes and other offerings.

Also, I have said several times that tithing does not have anything to do with the salvation or justification of the believer. Here is an example (post #434) -

2. Tithing in Scripture has nothing to do with salvation or justification:
(a) Abraham was not giving tithes to Melchizedek in order to be justified
(b) Abraham was not under the Mosaic Law when he gave tithes to Melchizedek
(c) Jacob was not trying to seek justification with God through tithing
(e) the Jews under the Mosaic Law were not trying to be justified through tithing
----- in all the occurrences in Scripture, tithing is not treated as a matter of salvation or justification

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-724424.416.html#msg8887070

garyarnold:
TEBUAH - can mean several things including produce, increase, and income.

Did I assert any differently? Did you read what I said earlier, that: "The word translated as "increase" is TEBUAH - a common Hebrew word that could mean product, revenue, income, gain or yield. It pointed to the revenue procurred from man's labours or transactions"??

HOWEVER, when the KJV was translated, they chose INCREASE, not income.

They mean the same thing - neither the translators of the KJV or those of any other versions have argued that they could not mean the same thing.

Although all income can be classified as increase, not all increase is income.  Had the KJV used the word "income" instead of increase, I would have no argument.

The KJV is not the only English Bible available for English readers. Here is one other English version -

KJV Bible - Proverbs 3:9 Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine INCREASE

God's Word (GW) version - Proverbs 3:9 Honor the LORD with your wealth and with the first and best part of all your INCOME



But then, I am still asking - 

-  where in the Bible (your own favourite KJV) have you read of the word "ASSET"?

-  What does the Hebrew word 'TEBUAH' mean to you?

By extension, what word do you know in the Bible that is used for INCOME and REVENUE - and is it WRONG to have said that 'tebuah' also includes the meaning of INCOME and REVENUE?

nlMediator:
Sorry, you're one of a handful of people here trying to broaden it. The discussion is substantially about the narrow point I raised. If you have any contradictory information from this site, I'll like to see it.

^^ I'm tempted to show you a handful of such, but we should leave it there - there's no need arguing such irrelavance (my POV), unless you just wanted to see the fact for yourself.

nlMediator:
I was not necessarily seeking the information from you - I already know your position. Glad to see you've abandoned your position that I was concluding and generalizing about what people teach, when in reality I was limiting it to my personal experience.

Huh? That's news to me! Where have I abandoned my position? Are you trying to make it sound like that for your own consumption. . . or? No sir, I have not abandoned my position. Just say you were uninformed hitherto.

What is left now is that I concluded that your discussion is outside the context. Again, that conclusion is only in the sense of what I know about tithe preaching. That knowledge is sufficient basis to assert that what you're saying is different from what those people I've read on this site and elsewhere from Nigeria are saying. I don't see what's harmful in that.

Dude, I'm not holding you at gunpoint. I just don't see how you could conclude what you did when in very fact the discussions on tithes on this forum are broader than what you're tending to narrow it to.

garyarnold:
Wordtalk criticizes John MacArthur for saying the Biblical tithe was a tax because the Bible doesn't call it a tax.

And your point is . . .?

Wordtalk has criticized me for saying the Biblical tithe was "like" a tax because the Bible doesn't call it a tax.

. . . and yet, your point is??

Then Wordtalk says there are examples in the Bible of tithing on income, yet the Bible doesn't use the word income.

Phew! I feel very sory for you, mr. gary arnold - believe me, I do. I have asked you to please tell me two things:

-  where in the Bible (your own favourite KJV) have you read of the word "ASSET"?

-  What does the Hebrew word 'TEBUAH' mean to you?

By extension, what word do you know in the Bible that is used for INCOME and REVENUE - and is it WRONG to have said that 'tebuah' also includes the meaning of INCOME and REVENUE? The important thing here for serious thinking heads is to discuss issues rather than complain here and there as you're doing.

Talk about being inconsistent!

Oh please! It is obvious you're just yapping in your corner all by yourself if you can't intelligently discuss - don't make 'wordtalk' your headache.

Edited for spelling:

nlMediator:
You're really struggling to make a non-point. "Not one of them" is a generalization. "Not one of them I know of" is not. I'm speaking from personal experience and there's absolutely nothing generalizing about that. Words are there for a purpose. You can't pick some portions of my statement and leave the part that immediately qualifies it and nullifies your argument.

And what point have you actually made? You seem to be at a huge loss on your own struggles, you know. You don't know about something - that doesn't make someone else's discussions to be out of context. Is the whole point yet lost on you? If you are expressing surprise, that would be something else - but to draw your hasy conclusions to say my discussions are out of context just doesn't help your further arguments.

I quoted something from the NAE's president that you referred to that has an approach to tithing that's different from the one I know from this site (apart from you) and Nigerian preachers. Why can't somebody contradict the point?

I am not against anybody contraditing any point - if done with good reasons. What you have done is try to contradict whatever point you wanted to without showing a case for your reasoned contradictions.

Telling me that it's my fault that I don't know people that hold such views is unhelpful.

- Just as telling me my discussions are out of context doesn't help either.

How else would I know other than by seeking such information from anywhere I can find it, including a widely-read forum like this?

How do you seek for information in the way you have already concluded that my discussions are out of context? I find that a very hilariously exhilarating manner of seeking information!

Finally, it's not about reading another Bible. Words can be used in different ways and contexts. I'm sure you're familiar with the Alice in Wonderland example. Somebody can refer to 5% of income as tithe and another person believes that 10% of income is the tithe. That they're both using the same word does not mean they're saying the same thing. Nor has that anything to do with versions of the Bible.

Touche.

garyarnold:
I thought that wordtalk had taken a class in accounting, but now he uses an example of income that is not correct.

I would like to see how that has happened.

The farmers had income when they sold or barter exchanged the crops. They did not tithe on that income. They tithed on the assets.

Please show me ONE verse in your own KJV Bible that uses the word "ASSET". Just one verse will do. Meanwhile, you don't seem to be able to think carefully on what TEBUAH is in Biblical usage, do you? Do you care to know? If you did, you would not be trying to advertize your accounting trade again and blaiming me for your loss.

Wordtalk hasn't yet learned how to pick out the correct definition of a word. Many words have many meanings. You must pick out the correct meaning.

Gary Arnold, this is not about me or anyone else. If you have something worth saying, please say on and stop complaining whle taking up precious space with noise. Please.

Jacob did not make a vow to tithe on his income. Again, wordtalk is making assumptions.

What did Jacob make a vow on - ASSET, yes? Please show me ONE VERSE in your KJV that uses the word ASSET.

There is no example of tithing on income anywhere in the Bible.

What is the meaning of the Hebrew word "tebuah"? Just sitting behind a PC and denying everything where you cannot provide an alternative answer is a lazy way of arguing.

garyarnold:
Wordtalk seems to think that tithe means 10%. It doesn't. It means tenth. In other words, as you count the items, every tenth one is the tithe. If there are eleven, the tenth one is the tithe. That is not an approximation. It is the tithe.

So, in your thinking Abraham would have been sitting down to count the items, every tenth one the tithe? I'm not that rigid in thinking - and no, that is not what the Bible said in Abraham's tithes to Melchizedek. I have used both TENTH and 10% in talking about TITHES - and nobody has complained. The funny thing about your comments is to look for every dot to pick upon and end up saying absolutely nothing!