₦airaland Forum

As for you, sweetneck or whatever, I don't have time for your nebulous juggling. It is one thing to make excuses, but quite another to try to deny an obvious scenario.

In my reply to LagosShia, I quoted his own words within my comments -

Afterall, you're the person who said that "Mary, mother of Jesus,was indeed the sister of Moses and Aron from the same father and mother" - should we class that as another "probable" assertion disguised under your "indeed"?

- and then you said:

Sweetnecta:
I am playing Abu Bakr Saudiq here: This bold will not come from Lagosshia. After all, it is known that Mary lived 100s of years after the death of both brothers, . .

Please sir, I'm not asking you to play Abu Bakr Saudiq or even play any other type of games. Don't play anything! End of!

It is clear that the bold came from LagosShia, and here is source -

LagosShia:
Mary,mother of Jesus,was indeed the sister of Moses and Aron from the same father and mother.it is unfortunate that the bible got it wrong once more;the same bible that gives different genealogies for your "lord and saviour".hope that suits you since no other explanation can possibly make sense to the senseless!

You notice also his claim that "no other explanation" could possibly make sense - em, "to the senseless". Since everyone else (including you) is rejecting that explanation, the only one who claims it as the de facto explanation may probably be in a world of his own. Please don't try to play Abu Bakr Saudiq or anything again. Just don't play anything!

LagosShia:
my friend,you dont know the english language,so how can i debate with you?

I don't see where you have shown your own understanding of your use of English.

what you accuse me of saying,if you have knowledge of the language,you will definitely know that i meant the opposite.

I did not "accuse" you, sir - so let not your conscience be disturbed. I "asked" questions, since "to ask" is not the same as "to accuse". What you affirmed with an emphatic "INDEED" is not on the same level with Hughes' "PROBABLY" - look up those words in a good English dictionary.

so you people should first learn english before opening your mounths.

Eh, tell us where in English you will ever find that "INDEED" is the same as "PROBABLY"?

infact even with your bible,you understand the opposite of what you read.its not only a problem of language but also psychy!

The Bible does not once address Mary the mother of Jesus as "sister of Aaron" - that much is clear. The Quran is the only book I know that does that without explaining a dot of the conundrum, which might explain the reason why your excuses are taking quantum leaps between two poles of "indeed" and "probably".

garyarnold:
Just because the word "tithe" and "tithing" is in the Bible, doesn't mean you can use those words OUT OF CONTEXT and still call it Biblical.

It is absolutely okay to use any word from any verse in the Bible to convey a simple concept that is applicable for contemporary Christian living. That is what theologians do every single day in hermeneutics - and no theologian would be worth his salt as a theologian without this basic exegetical principle.

Tithing is Biblical. Tithing to the Church is NOT Biblical, BY DEFINITION.

Tithing is Biblical - tithing to church is also Biblical. To argue against tithing to Church on the basis of your own narrow "definition" is the reason why I try to avoid strictures for any Christian in the Body of Christ. Go back and see the meanings of the definition you drew for Biblical and consider the meaning of 'evocative of or suggesting'.

The word "tither" isn't even in the KJV.

That's true - and there are so many words that YOU use in discussing tithing/tithes that are not even in the KJV. Examples? Where in the KJV do YOU read of the word "ASSET"?

What about another favorite word that anti-tithers use - "freewill"? Are you aware that "freewill offering" or "freewill offerings" are not used in the New Testament in the KJV? Even the word "freewill" is not used in the NT in the KJV.

Everytime we find either of those terms ("freewill offering" or "freewill offerings", it is in the OLD TESTAMENT and not once used for the Church in the New Testament! But anti-tithers who have problems with tithes and tithing in the Church will never cough on the fact that their beloved "freewill offerings" are not used in the Church but quite often in relation to the animal sacrifices and flour which Israel offered in Judaism (for example, Lev. 22:21 - "a freewill offering in beeves or sheep".

We don't have any problem with using the term "freewill offering(s)" for the Church today. We are not even going to quarrel over definitions about "voluntary" or "freewill offerings", nor are we going to war over questions of whether it is "Biblical" for the Church. We as "tithers" accept the use of "freewill offerings" in the Church today even if it is not once used in the New Testament! And yes, "the silver and the gold are a freewill offering unto the LORD God of your fathers" (Ezra 8:28) - no quibbling over that!

It is this kind of rigidity and literalism over words in your 'KJV' that I find quite worrisome in your arguments. You should not be quarrelling over dicta in other people's comments when in fact you're fond of using words which you will not find in your beloved KJV! As the Amplified says in 2 Timothy 2:14, "avoid petty controversy over words, which does no good but upsets and undermines the faith of the hearers." Your complaining is just quite the petty controversy that all reasonable believers should avoid.

debosky:
If in truth it isn't truly voluntary - I have seen no evidence (beyond your suspicion) that it isn't truly voluntary. From the responses WT has made, others are free to determine what they choose to give and call it what they please.

In two sentences, you have captured the whole matter and consistently restated the obvious. I think in a sense, the restlessness is nothing more than the suspicion(s), which add absolutely nothing helpful. 'Voluntary' is 'voluntary' without making stringent rules of definition, preconceived meanings, and applications. It is when people begin to seek pedantic definitions of words and constructs that simplicity in meanings is lost!

This is why I have reiterated far too many times that I allow for others to tithe voluntarily in the manner that voluntary tithing is meaningful to them as long as there are no demands for conformity, rigidity, legalism or compulsion.

Since conformity is not the goal nor the gist in our arguments, I don't see why anyone would be raising issues about "strict accordance with" anything -

I think you slightly misunderstand what "is not truly biblical". It is entirely biblical as a form of giving to choose to set aside 10% of one's income and give it in/to "church". What we tolerate but we say that is strictly speaking not biblical is the appellation "tithe/tithing" as though it is the same as any found in Genesis, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Malachi, Nehemiah etc. All they have in common is that in each case it is 10% or a tenth ----- beyond that there is no strict accordance with any of the biblical examples or injunctions.

'Tithe' in "voluntary tithing" bears the same sense in principle with those found in Genesis, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Malachi, Nehemiah, etc. The sense is simply the giving of a tenth of one's resources. I have not argued anywhere to make the giving of voluntary tithes to be in "strict accordance" with any of the passages found in the Bible. The "strict accordance" idea suggests nothing more than a hard-and-fast, prosaic, literal interpretation of those passages - and that is not what I have been arguing to favour.

LagosShia:
WAS MARY,MOTHER OF JESUS,A "SISTER" OF AARON LITERALLY OR FIGURATIVELY?

The Qurʼan upholds the virgin birth of Jesus (ʻĪsā)[122] and thus considers his genealogy only through Mary (Maryam), without mentioning Joseph.

Mary is very highly regarded in the Qurʼan, the nineteenth sura being named for her. She is called a daughter of ʻImrān,[123] whose family is the subject of the third sura. The same Mary (Maryam) is also called a sister of Aaron (Hārūn) in one place,[124] and although this is often seen as an anachronistic conflation with the Old Testament Miriam (having the same name), who was sister to Aaron (Hārūn) and daughter to Amram (ʻImrān), the phrase is probably not to be understood literally.[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogy_of_Jesus#Islam

^^ Taken from Thomas Patrick Hughes, "ʻImrān", A Dictionary of Islam, New Delhi.

Did that publication show anywhere in the Quran where the conundrum is explained? When the author of that article says that the phrase "probably not to be understood literally", was he not guessing and sounding as though he was not even sure of what he was saying?

All these excuses are becoming more of a drama than your aforementioned "figurative" exercise and quantum leaps. Hughes' material does not show any verse for the awaited explanation in the pages of the Quran - otherwise he would not be guessing whether or not it should "probably" be taken literally. Afterall, you're the person who said that "Mary, mother of Jesus,was indeed the sister of Moses and Aron from the same father and mother" - should we class that as another "probable" assertion disguised under your "indeed"?

garyarnold:
Wordtalk - you really do have an ego problem.

I don't. I have asked you to share your views and concentrate on doing just that. Your reaction with recourse to what I say sometimes betrays your own problem.

@garyarnold,

I have stated for the umpteenth time that this thread is not about personalities or between you and me. If you can share your views without having hypertensions over mine, that would be cool. But since you are not content until you have mentioned "wordtalk" as if my articles and comments are your nightmares, then you're calling for a part of me that will leave you deeply sorry. Trust me.

garyarnold:
Wordtalk accuses me of bragging but puts on her his own website the following:
“However, expressing my giving through tithing is an act of worship and a demonstration of my stewardship to God.”
“My giving is not limited to alms but extends to tithing – the voluntary giving of a tenth of my income, set apart as my priestly act of worship to God.”

And what is wrong with that?

If I was bragging, then wordtalk must also be bragging.  Otherwise, wordtalk has once against used a double standard.

Red herring. I have nowhere told anyone the DETAILS of my giving. If you stated your giving such as you did in that hubpage I cited earlier such as "Being Spirit led, I find that I am led to give MUCH MORE than a mere ten percent of my income, time, and talents", that's fine and I would not consider that bragging. But to then put up an air of superiority and then go into such details as purchasing 20-inch tv instead of an HDTV or giving $1000 dollars for church building fund, etc. to make you feel good over the other person you were discussing with - that is braggadocio, dude.

It is not only on my website that I have explained what tithing means to me; but you will not see me brag or boast about giving "far, far, far, far, far more than" anyone else! Others on this forum have indicated what tithing or giving may mean to them without the need for your supercilious braggadocio. Bragging the way you do and trying your hardest to deny it is below you.

Personally, I don’t think wordtalk is bragging here but rather using what he does as a way of teaching, the same way I use what I do as a way of teaching.

Thank you for acknowledging I was not bragging; but that is not at par with "the same way" you claim to teach - what you were doing in that hub was bragging. Label it as may soothe your conscience, you can't hide the fact.

As a general statement to which there may be many exceptions, so-call tithers are the only ones broadcasting the percentage they give.

Oh, so YOU never broadcast your own percentage? Are you not the same garyarnold who openly announced in that hub that your "total giving to the church and to those who [you] know are in need, probably exceeds 25 or 30 percent of my income"? Are you for real or just talented at being deceptive? 

And like I have already said, there is no reason to use the word "tithe" today other than to let others know that you are giving a tenth, and it will be inferred that it is a tenth of your income.  This "voluntary tithing" is an ego thing as far as I'm concerned.

You're free to conclude as you may, even if your generalizations are unfounded.

LagosShia:
so you finally got the reason why we say that describing Mary (as) as the "sister of Aron" (as) is figurative?

Uh-oh!! This Islamic thing you're bringing up is quite magical! How can you claim that "Mary, mother of Jesus,was indeed the sister of Moses and Aron from the same father and mother" is "figurative"?  Is that what Muhammad claimed as "figurative" in the Quran?

This is why I beg you to not try any more! Your quantum leap is going out of figurative franchise.

Enigma:
No problem; do indeed feel free to consider me as evasive. It is neither here nor there now --- I have already confirmed conclusively for myself about your "voluntary tithing".

Your choice, really - even if based on false allegations. That's grand.

Enigma:
I have established what I need to establish on this thread - for myself and no one else needs to agree with me.

You're quite adept at evasive swings, Enigma. I remember you stating that you resent false accusations, yes? I have waited to see you man up and quote me for what you accused me falsely of having said - and all you do is evade that single request and sling mud? Nice.

LagosShia:
just like Jesus also prayed to God to "forgive us our sins" and "lead us not into temptataion".

What you're referring to is what He taught others to pray for themselves. Someone asked Him: "Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. . " - that was when He said to them: "When ye pray, say. . .".  The prayer was for them, not for Him.

Jesus did not pray for forgiveness of sins for Himself - both the Bible and the Quran acknowledge that Jesus did not sin. We know that Muhammad sinned that much he asked for forgiveness for himself seventy times in a day! Dude, that is not the same thing that your Quran says about Jesus!

you're free to take whatever you like literally or figuratively.

There's nothing to take - since the Quran does not provide anything as explanation for Mary being called the "sister" of Aaron. All you could better say is that you don't know - there's no shame in it. To try so hard with uncommon excuses and still end up not finding the explanation the Quran gives is not helping you literally or figuratively.

maybe i should give it one more try:

Mary,mother of Jesus,was indeed the sister of Moses and Aron from the same father and mother.

Please don't try any more!! That is taking a leap across the galaxy, my friend! There is nowhere in the Quran where Mary the mother of Jesus lived at the time of Moses and Aaron. Your claim here is like collapsing several generations into one Islamic deci-second! Woosh! Please go and rest.

Enigma:
^^^ garyarnold also says you can call anything tithing --- why is he challenged on that? With invectives and misrepresentations about trash cans etc?

If garyarnold defines HIS OWN tithing as trash from trash can, I fully accept that as his own definition for HIMSELF. What I cannot accept is to make that the definition that every other or any other Christian should follow.


I did not deny garyarnold his right to hold that "definition" for himself - see for yourself:

garyarnold:
1 - give a tenth (tithe) of the trash from the trash can to the church.  Since everything belongs to God, if I give a tenth, I am tithing.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-724424.256.html#msg8870247

my reply:

wordtalk:
1. - You're free to give trash to the church and claim it belongs to God - that's you, not me.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-724424.256.html#msg8870382

WHERE did I deny garyarnold his right to his own "definition" of tithes for himself?

Enigma:
Now I say directly that you are indeed duplicitous. Also, I repeat and stand by my sleight of hand charge. I also repeat that some of us always saw through the chicanery.

This is not the first time I made a simple request that you evaded, so it's of no consequence at all to me that you'd make such accusations. Quote me on what you said I did say, and let us discuss it - is that too hard?

Enigma:
If s/he cannot answer the question then there is no question that s/he is duplicitous - especially when having a go at garyarnold for not accepting that what most people do is "tithing".

Before you go off happily with that accusation, I'm still waiting for you to quote me on this -

Enigma:
I repeat if you cannot answer them or if the answer is that the person is not a tither then you are engaged in double standards when you accuse garyarnold for saying what most people do is not "tithing".

I have offered you the opportunity to please quote me and let's discuss your misgivings. Fair enough?  

Enigma:
Well ??

^^ Well what? You have made a statement which I don't find in my comments, so I cannot answer for what I did not say. If you feel that I said what you alleged, please quote me.  

LagosShia:
in Islam,seeking forgiveness first of all is out of humility.secondly the word that is used to mean forgiveness is "istighfar".the word "istigfar" means also "seeking protection through nearness to Allah (swt)".likewise,as Jesus (aS) taught his disciples "forgive us our tresspasses" Muhammad (sa) also taught us "istighfar".

Whatever it may mean for you, the reference was to Muhammad's sin, not a question of seeking protection through any "nearness".

I am also still wondering how Jesus (as) is the "son of David".

The explanation has been given already.

in arabic language,any human being can be refered to as "bani Adam" or "son of Adam".that is figurative and the arabic language have many ways of expressions that are purely figurative.does that mean my father is Adam?so please dont teach us arabic that you dont know.i know arabic more than you do,and i can beat my chest and boast of that.just shut-up.using many usernames,does not hide your ignorance Mr."frosbel"!

The expression "bani Adam" is not the issue. Mary is called the "sister", not the "bani", of Aaron. All I asked is for you guys to show me where the Quran explained how Mary was the "sister" of Aaron. Your personal opinion does not make an impression if the Quran has no explanation for what it says.

garyarnold:
Wordtalk still accusing me of telling how much I give. Wordtalk has NO IDEA what my income is.

I am not interested in what your income is - I have no idea and don't even want to know! So keep it! The one thing you have done is pretend you don't brag and had the nerve to accuse others of bragging about their giving. You may play fast and lose with untruth here probably because you hope no one else knows you outsside of this forum.

When you do something, it is permissible to accept you have forgotten and nobody would hang that over your neck. But after being shown clearly the facts of your bragging and then you try to deny it, that passes from forgetfulness into deliberate deception.

Wordtalk leaves it up to each individual to decide what tithing means to them.

I am very guilty of that charge - and I will continue to be held guilty of it. I have made my case crystal clear as to WHY I will not harrague anybody concerning what it means for them. What I will not stand for is assume the authority or protocol to force my own or your own definition(s) into someone else's choice of pleasing God - BECAUSE He did not set you or anyone else as His personal secretary.

If you want to hunt people around the globe in order to overwhelm them with your own pre-paid "standards", you are very free to do so. What you cannot do is assume that only your own narrow views must be the only one that everyone else should/must adhere to.

Therefore, the word tithing can mean so many different things that the word becomes worthless.

If it worthless for YOU, it certainly is not for others. You do not "tithe" (however you have chosen to pre-define it for yourself), so stay with your "betwen 25 or 30 percent" and let the world move on!

^^ Bro, I apologise. I actually owe Inesqor a huge apology and a warm hug. He has been faithfully dropping emails every so often even though he didn't get replies back - for that long! He had no clue what happened to me (and I feel terrible that I didn't first tell him before breaking the news here). I'm alive and well - survived whatever happened. Praise to God.

Enigma:
^^^ Then the way you read is different from the way garyarnold reads. So you must stop the double standard of accusing him for saying that what most people do is not "tithing"!

Lol, Enigma. You're trying too hard to put words into my mouth. Please quote me and let's discuss. Just quote me on what you said I have said. Thank you.

Enigma:
@wordtalk

All these long posts are just obfuscation as you well know. What is more I notice again you say people can express their "giving" in different ways --- that is not the issue!

That IS the issue - for ME. And the reason is because the way you read things is different from the way I read them. You have certain "standards", and I am not one who makes strictures for anyone no matter how they read things for themselves. Yes, I have been using the word "giving" to express my understanding - and here is why:

For the purpose of this blog, a simple user-friendly understanding of ‘giving’ would be ‘whatever we bestow or render from what we have in order to serve a purpose‘. This may not be an all-embracing definition, yet it’s a functional one that conveys its general meaning in varied aspects of its use in my articles. That is not to deny that there certainly are other shades of meaning to it – and such will be highlighted when and where necessary.

To understand giving as expressed above helps to tidy things up and minimize misconceptions. This implies that such concepts as alms, contributions, donations, offerings, gifts, and tithes are various ways of expressing the same thing: giving. This is why the argument that ‘tithing is not giving’ is quite an uninformed and unnecessary one to make.

http://givingtithes.com/giving-whats-in-a-name/

garyarnold:
You brag about your giving and you CANNOT deny the fact!

Since I don't brag about my giving, I must say that you are a liar.

If I did not post where you have bragged about your giving and only made up the claims, then your accusation would stand. This is where you actually made those braggado claims - http://meetbrandon.hubpages.com/hub/Tithing-Scriptures--What-the-Bible-Says-About-Tithing  

I have never said how much my income is, or what dollar amount I give.  I am not the type of person to brag about my giving.

You actually did, garyarnold - there's no need to pretend this falsehood. You don't need to tell anyone the exact figure of your income, but you made reference to how much from your income you give in saying that "My total giving to the church and to those who I know are in need, probably exceeds 25 or 30 percent of my income, and I am retired."

If you also claim that you never said what dollar amount you give, then that also is falsehood. On that same hubpage you clearly quoted the dollar amount you gave at one time:

I had almost $1,000 saved up when the church I was attending (not even a member of that church) made an appeal to help pay off their building. God directed me to give the money to the church, and I did so cheerfully.

I'm not trying to show you up; but when you make deliberately false statements, I won't put up with that. Sorry.

garyarnold:
@ debosky,

Wordtalk is pulling the wool over your eyes again.

Wordtalk says I can call tithing if I give a tenth of my clothes to the Salvation Army.  But Wordtalk won't call that tithing.  Notice how he words things so carefully as to NEVER say that he would call other than giving a tenth of income in the church "tithing."

This again is chasing wind. If you have found a single line where I asserted what you are claiming, please quote me directly and let's discuss it. If you do not find me saying what you're forcing into my position, then you have nothing to tender.

garyarnold:
I am a teacher of sacrificial giving. There is no better way to teach than to teach by EXAMPLE, the way Jesus did it. I do not brag about my giving, but use myself as an example.

We don't want to go through this for many more pages. You brag about your giving and you CANNOT deny the fact! Even where you desire to follow the example of Jesus, you will find that while giving is discreet, He certainly decried the attitudes of people blowing their trumpets about how they did this and did that in order to compare their giving to other people's giving! To brag about your giving"far, far, far, far, far more than" whatever is bragging in absolute terms - and that in no way is an example. If you want to play on words and claim that you use yourself as an example, then know that is a VERY BAD example, End of!

Edited:

Enigma:
Only giving of a tenth of money and into church does wortalk ever describe as tithing.

That is not true, since I did not assert what you're are concluding.

1. I think debosky sees through me as clear as water! perhaps he is the foremost person in this thread to essentially capture my posture and reasoning in these matters - especially when he said:

WT has avoided any strictures around nomenclature, while garyarnold seeks to enforce strictures on what can/cannot be called tithes (beyond what the bible clearly lays out) and how that is taught. Surely you can see they are polar opposites when it comes to this issue of nomenclature?

2. very true - I have hitherto avoided any strictures. Nonetheless, in expressing my own opinion without standing as headmaster for any and/or all voluntary tithers, I nowhere made a case for "ONLY" money or "ONLY" in Church. BEFORE this thread, I have made the point that there are various avenues through which people may express their giving without limiting such expressions to any particularly predefined "standards".

3. If anything, at the very least, I think it is clear that I allow for others to hold their views as fully as I hold mine. This I expressed in various ways, such as saying that people should be free to do as they wish. I did not want to define certain "standards" for anyone for the very simple reason that it would contradict my position on the liberty of all Christians to do as they are led of God to do - which would include the choice of NOT EVEN GIVING ANYTHING if that is how they feel!

Beyond that, I do not understand how else I can help anyone understand my position. My disinclination to make people conform to certain preconceived "definitions" does not mean that I was making a case for "ONLY" this and that! I did not limit giving to "ONLY" money - that is why I often speak instead of RESOURCES!

If you would like to see indeed that I do not limit my understanding of giving to "ONLY" money, perhaps this article I wrote sometime in March this year would help you appreciate my posture a little better -

[size=14pt]Think Resources, Not Just Money[/size]

There are many ways we could make a difference in the lives of people around us. At some point money may be involved – we spend from ourselves and make commitments of financial support for causes that reach out to those we may not be directly able to do so.

[size=14pt]However, I wrote in a previous post to suggest that it’s not all about money, so we could think a little more instead about resources. I’m persuaded that there are other ways to share resources other than cash or bank notes; so here I want to make some suggested examples.[/size]
Read more:

http://givingtithes.com/think-resources-not-just-money/

I NOWHERE made a case for "ONLY" this and/or that. The way I express my opinions may be different from what exactly you wanted to see; and if that does not appear, it would be unfair to draw unjustified conclusions based on what you hoped I should say that you may not have read. I hope this helps to clear the air a little more.

garyarnold:
Only IF it is labeled as an example and not written to infer that it is the only way.

For one, nobody has argued that it is the "only" way, so you can't take that up as an issue otherwise you're just chasing red herring all over again. An example is still an example, labelling it exactly as an 'E-X-A-M-P-L-E' in order to be qualified as an example is to stretch things way out of proportion.

I don't brag about my giving.

You actually do. I've seen you in other blogs boasting several times about how much you give. Remember the hub where you engaged someone by the username "Debradoo"? Although that wasn't me, this is what you said to him/her:

Debradoo - To answer your question, I have given to the church as God directs me. Sometimes that has amounted to far in excess of ten percent. My total giving to the church and to those who I know are in need, probably exceeds 25 or 30 percent of my income, and I am retired.

. . . and it goes on and on and on, describing how you purchased a 20-inch analog tv instead of buying a big-screen hdtv, etc., etc., etc.

On that same hubpage, you even said this:

I GIVE out of LOVE. I expect nothing in return. I give because it is in my heart to give. The Spirit puts in my heart where to give, and how much to give, and it's far, far, far, far, far more than a tenth of my income.

Tell me, if it were a tither that should brag in public like that, what would you qualify that as, if not the same bragging you're known for? These are not to show you up - there are far too many places you have made statements bragging about your giving! The point here is that you cannot claim that you don't brag about your giving - that is just plain false.

The problem is that anti-tithers are constantly being accused of being stingy. I try to make the point that I am not stingy and in fact give far more than most tithers, percentage wise.

You don't have to brag about anything. It is enough to know that you give - and for many of us we express our giving through tithes, offerings and other types of benevolence. We don't have to give details of how much we had to save in order to buy 20-inch tv instead of HDTV and whatnots.

And second, you cannot wave the victim's card as reason for your bragging - we know the kinds of things you have accused tithers of! So, making excuses for your bragging does not exempt you from the allegations you express on others.

There is no other reason for using "voluntary tithing" other than to let others know what you are doing. You must want others to know you are giving a tenth or you wouldn't need to use the word tithe. You don't need to advertise the percentage that you give. Giving is between you and God.

You don't need to advertize what type of tv you had to buy so that you can give "far, far, far, far, far more than a tenth of [your] income" - whatever tv or HDTV you purchased or did not purcahse was between you and God. Let others live rather than trying to justify yourself in the things you condemn in other believers.

garyarnold:
Giving ONE example of tithing on income is not proper in my opinion. Yet, no one would be obligated to explain every possible way. How about just two or three EXAMPLES, and call them examples.

This is absolutely meaningless. An example qualifies as an example - even if it is ONLY ONE example. Demanding more than one before it makes an example is setting an unfounded demand that is unwarranted and dishonest. Jesus died ONLY ONCE on the Cross - and the apostle Peter effectively points to that as AN EXAMPLE for Christians (1 Peter 2:21ff). It would make absolutely no sense at all for us to be looking for up to three so-called "examples" of Christ dying on the Cross before that qualifies as your desired example!

I have no problem with someone tithing as we concluded on this blog IF THEY FULLY UNDERSTAND that tithing can be on anything, given to anyone, and only once or as often as they wish.

If that is what you recommend, why is it that you have been all out against any hint of tithing? I do not have a problem with your compromise since there's nothing you can argue against voluntary tithing. Those of us who have been trying to share our views on voluntary tithing do not have to conform to your own "standards" before you can pay heed to the simplicity of tithing done "voluntarily". It would make no sense for us to decry "compulsory tithing" and then begin to set up criteria and definitions of "compulsory" only to end up with the idea that "compulsory is not compulsory" unless it is meets our own "standards" of "definition".

There was no need to have gone this far with all this back and forth oon very simple matters. As long as people are not made to come under any form of compulsion, that is enough to let them do whatever they want to do in a voluntary manner. No need to begin all this unnecessary seacrh of enquiry as to whether another man's "voluntary" whatnots meets our own "definition2 of voluntary.

I would, however, think it absolutely silly to call it tithing since everyone on this blog seems to concur that tithing means absolutely nothing more than giving a tenth of something. Since giving is supposed to be secret, WHY in heck does anyone need to use the word "tithe" other than to get an acknowledgment from either God and/or man? To me its the same thing the Pharisees did - bragging.

A thousand million times WRONG. On the one hand, many who tithe voluntarily are not seeking approval from you or anyone else. Second, anti-tithers would not bother to find out what anyone else does if they truly believe in the discreet manner in which others may choose to give. Afterall, I have read you boasting in other places of how you give "far-far-far-far above" 10% - and I'm sure that made you feel "good" and somewhat braggadocio. In this regard, you have no right to turn your nose down on anyone else on what you yourself are guilty of doing!

^^ No problem. I just wondered that someone could be so vehemently opposed to tithing while claiming that he has no problems with "voluntary tithing" - yet come back to log issues even with what he should have no problems with. As debosky well put it, conformity is not the goal; and if I find something to be "okay", I think it would only be fair and safe to encourage it rather than give people the idea that it is meaningless.

But it's all good.

I want to say a big thank you to all of you for your kind words and especially your warm welcome back to me - I least expected it! Thank you again. I also apologise for not settling the matter any earlier - it was just not my kinda thing. I'll update my profile with the (m).

Enigma:
^^ Well it does seem there are two views of voluntary tithing here; my presumption is that the voluntary tithing that garyarnold supports is that in which the tither can give the tithe in a form other than money and/or outside "church". I believe this is what he means by "what we have concluded here".

I don't know; but I can bet the world trade center a dozen times that garyarnold's anti-tithing arguments have ABSOLUTELY NO PLACE for even a hint of ANY KIND OF TITHING. NONE. He may say that "voluntary tithing" is okay or that he has "no problems" with a certain kind of "voluntary tithing" - but the same chap comes back a few short breathes and totally backflips from his claim to being okay with "voluntary tithing" at any level.

I'm not putting him on spot or demand that he adjusts his seatbelt - No. What I marvel at is his being "okay" with something and then totally condeming the same thing!

In that case, it would make sense if he criticises 'voluntary' tithing that does not meet that standard.

I think even you would have read the same garyarnold saying that "NOBODY, ABSOLUTELY NOBODY" gives or pays the "Biblical tithes" TODAY. (Sorry about the emphasis). He has made such claims numerous times that I wonder what "standard" of voluntary tithing would satisfy him at any level? What type of tithing would garyarnold recommend to anybody - "standard" or not - that we could consider and apply in our lives as Christians today?

debosky:
If you feel so strongly about this issue, then the best way to help would be to consistently offer more teaching to present this alternate view of tithing.

That is the whole wonder about it, isn't it? If some of these folks truly "have no problems with" voluntary tithing as they have read here, why do they at the same time have serious problems encouraging the very thing they claim to be okay with? Is it not strange that they demand "whole truth" from others when they themselves are not willing to see alternative sides of the "truth"?

It is like the analogy garyarnold used between atheism and evolution. His concern was that the alternative side was not given a hearing - and that was what led him to change his mind from his previous perception. He did not glibly say that, well. . . since the alternative side has been told, he had "no problems" with it - but it was all still a farce! Tell me, would he have changed his mind to embrace what he formerly rejected?

As long as anti-tithers say that they have no problems with voluntary tithes/tithing, I don't think that some are actually ready to embrace it. For them, it is still a farce (or worse) - and one wonders what grounds they then have to demand "whole truth" from others when they are rejecting what they say they have no problems with? Something is patently wrong with that kind of attitude.

garyarnold:
The whole issue of voluntary tithing is a farce as far as I am concerned because it is nothing by voluntary giving.

This just sums up the base of a rigid anti-tithing preoccupation. You have said earlier that "If those teaching voluntary tithing as we have concluded here, I would have no problem with it", and honest to God I suspected that such a statement had nothing to it - and you just proved yourself. WHY is it that those who say that "if voluntary tithing is preached as" they have seen it somewhere (like on this forum) would go on to claim that they have no problem with it - only to come back denying what they have just claimed?

I don't see anyone compelling you to tithe voluntarily - but to turn round and castigate what you say 'you don't have problems with' is doing you no good at all: at best, it simply deflates your own claims.

^^Done. Thanks.