Oh! what a pity? People are twisting the scripture as if it was written by human being. Somebody said, those who are not paying tithe are living well. Help me ask him, is there any one on the face of this earth, educated, illiterate, poor, rich, ugly or beautiful, that does not have one problem or the other. Of course, everyone has one problem or the other. Anyway, the devil will give you 1001 reasons not to obey God 's commandment, he will deceive you, he will offer you seemingly good reasons even from the bible not to pay tithe, you know the devil is a master strategist, it is not new, he did that to Jesus by taking him to the top of the temple, you know the rest. Nevertheless, your tithe does not belong to you, it belongs to God. It is very bad when you steal from your fellow human being, but you will be the greatest thief, if you steal from God. Things may be okay financialy for you now, but let me be silence. God2man. did that to Jesus by taking him to the top of the temple, you know the rest. Nevertheless, your tithe does not belong to you, it belongs to God. It is very bad when you steal from your fellow human being, but you will be the greatest thief, if you steal from God. Things may be okay financialy for you now, but let me be silence. God2man.

dare2think:

What exactly are people missing from paying tithes and who judges and decides what they miss?

Does Tithing draw you closer to God and makes you achieve the ultimate goal- Heaven- ?

Who decides the relevance of this activity?

My dear dare2think, I have answered these questions in my previous comments. You're repeating the questions in other verbiage, and it makes no difference to the answers already given, some of which you even quoted. If you don't tithe, nobody is going to arrest you - do as your heart tells you without worrying over what others have decided to do for themselves. The problem arises when anti-tithers take up a campaign to totally stop Christians expressing their giving in the form of tithes and other offerings.

Also, I have said several times that tithing does not have anything to do with the salvation or justification of the believer. Here is an example (post #434) -

2. Tithing in Scripture has nothing to do with salvation or justification:
(a) Abraham was not giving tithes to Melchizedek in order to be justified
(b) Abraham was not under the Mosaic Law when he gave tithes to Melchizedek
(c) Jacob was not trying to seek justification with God through tithing
(e) the Jews under the Mosaic Law were not trying to be justified through tithing
----- in all the occurrences in Scripture, tithing is not treated as a matter of salvation or justification

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-724424.416.html#msg8887070

garyarnold:

If you want to use a version of the Bible for children, you will find the word income.

Income and increase do NOT mean the same thing.

Even babes can easily understand the things that you are forever struggling to deny. In your world, "tebuah" is difficult for you to grasp, but then you have NEVER ONCE answered the very simple questions I asked you -

- where in the Bible (your own favourite KJV) have you read of the word "ASSET"?
- What does the Hebrew word 'TEBUAH' mean to you?
By extension, what word do you know in the Bible that is used for INCOME and REVENUE - and is it WRONG to have said that 'tebuah' also includes the meaning of INCOME and REVENUE?

Gary Arnold, I have explained my views in my comments; but why are these simple questions proving so difficult for you after several replies?

I try to avoid discussions on tithe as its obvious its a painful subject to those who "gain" from it. And the best (who can articulate themselves clearly) have themselves concluded it is a voluntary act which has nothing to do with the official "primary" thrust of the Christian walk which is Salvation!

But reading this thread, I find wordtalk stating something. Before going further, I think I should say his position seems tenable enough - it is a "voluntary gift", "non-compulsory" and "laudable" to support ministries. To his words -

even from[b] within Nigeria I don't think that there's not even a single pastor that does not preach tithes on voluntray basis[/b] - so the highlighted part in your comment is inaccurate

@wordtalk:

IF YOU ARE SHOWN specific incontrovertible example of respected "men" of God insisting that tithes are compulsory for Christians, and a requirement for salvation, will you take back the above statement?

Do you believe payment or non-payment "tithes" determines a human's success in life and that non-tithers are cursed?

As stated, this is not an argument I wish to wade into ! "yes" and "no" are simple honest answers I will appreciate and thank you for

@ wordtalk

wordtalk:

Also, I have said several times that tithing does not have anything to do with the salvation or justification of the believer. Here is an example (post #434) -

There are some questions you don't need to respond to because they will still keep coming even though you have given more than enough answers.

Edited for spelling:

@nuclearboy,

Thank you for your comments - much appreciated. However, let me first explain what I meant by this -

even from within Nigeria I don't think that there's not even a single pastor that does not preach tithes on voluntary basis - so the highlighted part in your comment is inaccurate

- (a) that does not mean that all pastors who teach tithes do so on voluntary basis
- (b) that simply means that, at the very least, there could be a pastor who does so on voluntary basis

Now on to your enquiry -

nuclearboy:

IF YOU ARE SHOWN specific incontrovertible example of respected "men" of God insisting that tithes are compulsory for Christians, and a requirement for salvation, will you take back the above statement?

No. Why? Because I have explained what I meant just above. The 'incontrovertible example' is not even the issue, as I never asserted there were no pastors who ever preached compulsory tithes in Nigeria; rather, I was asking if there were ANY who could not be referenced as doing so on voluntary basis.

Now, just so you know, I am aware of 'incontrovertible examples' (plural) of pastors in Nigeria who insist that tithes are compulsory - that is why I have referenced the survey from the NAE (National Evangelical Association -  https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-739830.0.html#msg8969843  ) on post #22. Further to that, I have an article that references Pastor Enoch A. Adegboye of RCCG as an example of a "compulsory tithe" preacher, and I don't agree with his views - see this:

OBLIGATORY TITHES. There are some who believe that tithes are obligatory for Christians today. This is expressed in various ways, including its being “required” or “mandatory”. The consequences of not tithing would mean that such believers are sinning against God – which in certain strains of their argument would imply that these folks are expressly qualifying themselves for divine judgement in hell.(1)

http://givingtithes.com/how-christians-think-about-tithing/  

However, I think why some are concerned about this issue to the point of 'daggers drawn' is because a lot of people (not everyone) have assumed that all pastors who even remotely mention tithes/tithing from within Nigeria must by default be preaching a "mandatory" or "compulsory" tithes. Example to the reference from nlMediator in his argument that - "Not one of them I know or have heard makes any exceptions" (although he explained his context, and I don't want to push it any further).

I don't know all the pastors who preach tithing to their congregations in Nigeria; but let me draw from a few sources even on this forum where a Nigerian pastor stands as an example of voluntary tithes: Pastor Tunde Bakare of LatterRain Assembly -

Tithes are to be used to take care of widows, the helpless, and services in the house of God. Why should they come to you to say we want to pay NEPA bills, we want to pay church staff? People that are working in the ministry have to be paid and the organisation has to be run. But it’s never compulsory. If anybody tells you if you don’t pay tithe you  will remain tight, greed in his heart is influencing that because Christ has become the cross for us. . . .
Do I pay tithe? Definitely. But I don’t make it a law for everybody. I do from my earnings because I don’t depend on church offerings. My hands, like Paul’s, provided for my necessities. I pay my tax like any other citizen of this country. I pay from my legitimate earnings. If I have to wait for them to give on Sundays before I send my children to school and eat, then something is wrong.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-718091.0.html

So, while I have given an example each of Nigerian pastors for compulsory and voluntary tithes, I don't think every pastor who preaches tithes should be tarred with the same brush.

Do you believe payment or non-payment "tithes" determines a human's success in life and that non-tithers are cursed?

I believe in the veracity of tithing - both from first-hand experiences of real people I know, as well as testimonies of others whom I have not met in person. I was once a vehement anti-tither myself, until I encountered a Spirit-filled and mature believer who turned my world around with just one simple question that left me speechless!

However, what I can say is this: it is not only through tithing that believers can become successful financially and otherwise. My conviction is that tithing is based on two important factors (priesthood and worship), and these two factors stand above every other consideration in a believer's life and ministry. So, if someone is not moved to express their giving this way, there should not be a do-and-die argument to bend such a person to do so. What the anti-tither should not do is join a band-wagon to campaign that every Christian must-needs stop tithing altogether.

Also, do I believe that a Christian who does not tithe is under a curse? No - that is not my theology or hermenuetical principle, as I cannot defend that idea in light of the New Testament. What I have tried to maintain is that the blessings of the Old Testament could apply to the Christian, but the curses under the old covenant do not (see my comment here in post #434) -

5.  The curses of the Law may not apply to Christians, but the blessings do.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-724424.416.html#msg8887070  

As stated, this is not an argument I wish to wade into ! "yes" and "no" are simple honest answers I will appreciate and thank you for

I apologise for going beyond the requested 'yes' and 'no'. I just find sometimes that people can build a multi-universe from a simple statement, and that's why I had to explain myself so as not to risk misreadings.

^
^

I sincerely do not see how any reasoning person can disagree with what you have just stated and I am clapping for you here!

I have been considered an anti-tither whist NOT actually being so. I think I speak for a few others here that its not so much the tithe but the "compulsion", threats and suchlike that accompany the issue when being taught from "MANY" pulpits that many of us stand against. I too know Pastor Bakare's views and if that was what was preached, I wager there would be few dissenting voices here. What we are used to hearing is very different and then we get called unbelievers, demons (even dogs) for daring to refuse to agree with what some call men of God.

Now that YOU (their last bastion of reason for tithing) has clarified, I wait to see what those who have hands but prefer the sweat of others will call you - one is online with us!

And I will watch out for your posts as the little I've read shows a "reasoning mind" that does its own findings - the Berean Mind - that being an ingredient missing in most Christians!

@Nuclearboy

I am afraid, I have a few things to question in wordtalk's post - especially because I have seen exactly this same sleight of hand before (a matter I expect to come to in another post).

wordtalk:
. . .
However, I think why some are concerned about this issue to the point of 'daggers drawn' is because a lot of people (not everyone) have assumed that all pastors who even remotely mention tithes/tithing from within Nigeria must by default be preaching a "mandatory" or "compulsory" tithes. Example to the reference from nlMediator in his argument that - "Not one of them I know or have heard makes any exceptions" (although he explained his context, and I don't want to push it any further).

I don't know all the pastors who preach tithing to their congregations in Nigeria; but let me draw from a few sources even on this forum where a Nigerian pastor stands as an example of voluntary tithes: Pastor Tunde Bakare of LatterRain Assembly -

So, while I have given an example each of Nigerian pastors for compulsory and voluntary tithes, I don't think every pastor who preaches tithes should be tarred with the same brush.

1. This also requires an explanation of why tithes mongers are also "concerned to the point of daggers drawn" if it is accepted that "tithing" is not compulsory but should be voluntary.

2. Bear in mind that those of us against "tithing" have repeatedly stated that we have nothing against voluntary tithing particularly if the "tither" knows that tithing is not an obligation, and the concern is about the mistaken or fraudulent teaching of compulsory tithing ---- so why the vehement and frankly often rude, "daggers drawn" defence?

3. It is all well and good using Tunde Bakare as the one and only one example of a prominent Nigerian "pastor" who suggests tithing should be voluntary; what about the fact that overwhelmingly tithing is taught by other prominent pastors as compulsory and sometimes with various threats?

4. What is the percentage of compulsory tithe preachers in Nigeria versus voluntary tithe preachers?

5. What is the percentage of compulsory tithe preachers globally versus voluntary tithe preachers?

6. What is the percentage of tithe payers globally who see it as compulsory versus those who see it as voluntary?

wordtalk:
. . .My conviction is that tithing is based on two important factors (priesthood and worship), and these two factors stand above every other consideration in a believer's life and ministry. So, if someone is not moved to express their giving this way, there should not be a do-and-die argument to bend such a person to do so. What the anti-tither should not do is join a band-wagon to campaign that every Christian must-needs stop tithing altogether.

1. Is it only "tithing" that is based on "important factors" of "priesthood and worship"?

2. Is freewill giving, which is what the New Testament teaches, not based on "priesthood and worship"?

3. Even if we stick to "tithing", if a goat seller chooses to "tithe" based on "priesthood and worship" and he does so by bringing some goats into church, is that "tithing" and is that acceptable?

4. Or is the "principle" of tithing based on "priesthood and worship" confined to tithing with only money?

Let us stop here for now --- but as hinted, I have quite a lot more to say.

Enigma:

@Nuclearboy

I am afraid, I have a few things to question in wordtalk's post - especially because I have seen exactly this same sleight of hand before (a matter I expect to come to in another post).

The sleight of hand is yours, not mine. You only read what you want to see in other people's posts, since you can't afford to reason.

1. This also requires an explanation of why tithes mongers are also "concerned to the point of daggers drawn" if it is accepted that "tithing" is not compulsory but should be voluntary.

That is precisely the merry-go-round legalism that you will not find in my post. In other comments I made earlier, anyone who has good sense would see without difficulty that I don't argue as a jingoist - since that seems to be your style. I have tried to show what I believe in and can reason out from Scripture, rather than stand as a jingoist holding placards for anyone's campaigns. What I have tried to show is that there are some pastors who preach tithes as "compulsory" while others teach it as "voluntary" - yet, from other sources, many who preach tithing ('compulsory' or 'voluntary') actually themselves tithe. Anti-tithers who do not want to face up to this reality are too busy tearing their hair out to tar everyone with the same brush!

2. Bear in mind that those of us against "tithing" have repeatedly stated that we have nothing against voluntary tithing particularly if the "tither" knows that tithing is not an obligation and the concern is about the mistaken or fraudulent teaching of compulsory tithing ---- so why the vehement and frankly often rude, "daggers drawn" defence?

I am willing to take back the 'daggers drawn' if the idiom offends you in particular - that does not write off your penchant to be particullarly rude to others! It is simply an idiom ("if two people or groups are at daggers drawn, they are angry and ready to fight or argue with each other" - it was not directed at you in particular, was it? I consider the tithing and anti-tithing arguments quite unnecessary and would prefer discussions where people don't have to go down the path of name-calling, etc. - I have said so before. What antitithers often tend to do is not reason with others - which is why I don't understand why you start out with insinuations about "sleight of hand" in seeking to question my comments.

3. It is all well and good using Tunde Bakare as the one and only one example of a prominent Nigerian "pastor" who suggests tithing should be voluntary; what about the fact that overwhelmingly tithing is taught by other prominent pastors as compulsory and sometimes with various threats?

Phew! I consider this question quite mischievous. How else should I state what I have ALREADY STATED? I have stated that -
(a) I do not know EVERY PASTOR in Nigeria who preaches tithes, so I'm not going to generalise and regard them all from a default position;
(b) Also, I am aware of 'incontrovertible examples' (plural) of pastors in Nigeria who insist that tithes are compulsory
These issues have been raised by nuclearboy and he had no problems with my answers. It is not that I am not aware; nor is it a case of the so-called "overwhelming" argument. This is why I highlighted that there are many others who teach a voluntary tithe (from the NAE survey). Your question only pretends that I didn't make any reference about what you're asking!

4. What is the percentage of compulsory tithe preachers in Nigeria versus voluntary tithe preachers?

I don't know - if you do, please tell us. It is clear that the one example each I gave for either side underscores the point that I was trying to make in response to nuclearboy's questions.

5. What is the percentage of compulsory tithe preachers globally versus voluntary tithe preachers?

Oh please, knock yourself out! Since I have not made a claim about "global" stats, and you want to have issues on that, then go ahead! I have to wait for such "global  before I can reason out issues in simple terms, innit?

6. What is the percentage of tithe payers globally who see it as compulsory versus those who see it as voluntary?

I don't know. And what has that to do with what I have tried to say in replying to nuclearboy?

1. Is it only "tithing" that is based on "important factors" of "priesthood and worship"?

Did I make any such claims? This is why I'm concerned that people read what they want to see into other people's posts and then build multi-verses from their strawmen! I NOWHERE asserted what you supposed, so how does that become an issue from within my posts?

2. Is freewill giving, which is what the New Testament teaches, not based on "priesthood and worship"?

I never argued to the contrary. People are particular about tithes and tithing - and it is based on that that my answers were given. You may read something else - but a little honesty would do.

3. Even if we stick to "tithing", if a goat seller chooses to "tithe" based on "priesthood and worship" and he does so by bringing some goats into church, is that "tithing" and is that acceptable?

What for you is "acceptable"?

4. Or is the "principle" of tithing based on "priesthood and worship" confined to tithing with only money?

Strawman again! Did I make any argument that tithing was based on "ONLY MONEY"? Where did I make such an assertion? Please quote me.

Let us stop here for now --- but as hinted, I have quite a lot more to say.

Nobody stops you from saying what you have to say - you might be setting up strawmen to knock down for yourself.

I will not bother to respond in any detail since your answers are revealing enough. 

As I said before I have seen the sleight of hand before whether the poster was called wordtalk, viaro or pilgrim.1. I even had a quick look at some of the posts to confirm what I said.

Until tithe mongers agree that (a) "tithes does not have to be money", and (b) "tithes does not have to be taken into only "church" but can instead also be given to widows, orphans and other needy people etc, they are only playing games and some of us can see through the chicanery.

Enigma:

I will not bother to respond in any detail since your answers are revealing enough.

Should I be surprised? If you wanted to be reasonable in the first place, it would not have been difficult for you to see very simple things for what they are, rather than outsmart yourself only to return with empty air.

wordtalk:

Edited for spelling:

@nuclearboy,

Thank you for your comments - much appreciated. However, let me first explain what I meant by this -

- (a) that does not mean that all pastors who teach tithes do so on voluntary basis
- (b) that simply means that, at the very least, there could be a pastor who does so on voluntary basis

Now on to your enquiry -

No. Why? Because I have explained what I meant just above. The 'incontrovertible example' is not even the issue, as I never asserted there were no pastors who ever preached compulsory tithes in Nigeria; rather, I was asking if there were ANY who could not be referenced as doing so on voluntary basis.

Now, just so you know, I am aware of 'incontrovertible examples' (plural) of pastors in Nigeria who insist that tithes are compulsory - that is why I have referenced the survey from the NAE (National Evangelical Association -  https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-739830.0.html#msg8969843  ) on post #22. Further to that, I have an article that references Pastor Enoch A. Adegboye of RCCG as an example of a "compulsory tithe" preacher, and I don't agree with his views - see this:
However, I think why some are concerned about this issue to the point of 'daggers drawn' is because a lot of people (not everyone) have assumed that all pastors who even remotely mention tithes/tithing from within Nigeria must by default be preaching a "mandatory" or "compulsory" tithes. Example to the reference from nlMediator in his argument that - "Not one of them I know or have heard makes any exceptions" (although he explained his context, and I don't want to push it any further).

I don't know all the pastors who preach tithing to their congregations in Nigeria; but let me draw from a few sources even on this forum where a Nigerian pastor stands as an example of voluntary tithes: Pastor Tunde Bakare of LatterRain Assembly -

So, while I have given an example each of Nigerian pastors for compulsory and voluntary tithes, I don't think every pastor who preaches tithes should be tarred with the same brush.

I believe in the veracity of tithing - both from first-hand experiences of real people I know, as well as testimonies of others whom I have not met in person. I was once a vehement anti-tither myself, until I encountered a Spirit-filled and mature believer who turned my world around with just one simple question that left me speechless!

However, what I can say is this: it is not only through tithing that believers can become successful financially and otherwise. My conviction is that tithing is based on two important factors (priesthood and worship), and these two factors stand above every other consideration in a believer's life and ministry. So, if someone is not moved to express their giving this way, there should not be a do-and-die argument to bend such a person to do so. What the anti-tither should not do is join a band-wagon to campaign that every Christian must-needs stop tithing altogether.

Also, do I believe that a Christian who does not tithe is under a curse? No - that is not my theology or hermenuetical principle, as I cannot defend that idea in light of the New Testament. What I have tried to maintain is that the blessings of the Old Testament could apply to the Christian, but the curses under the old covenant do not (see my comment here in post #434) -


I apologise for going beyond the requested 'yes' and 'no'. I just find sometimes that people can build a multi-universe from a simple statement, and that's why I had to explain myself so as not to risk misreadings.

Wordtalk. I am Content with your explanation of the Tithing issue and I understand some of your views. I am impressed as you are one of the few that have given an unbiased viewpoint. I truly commend you. And I respect you for the bolded sentences. You back up your arguments with reason and facts. I applaud you for that, unlike some other folks that feeds us garbage spewed from another person who claims  to be a "Man of God"

Thanks for taking your time to explain, though I still don't see the relevance of Tithing personally, I accept and respect your viewpoint on the issue. People should be free to do what they want to enhance their spirituality, but it still does not remove the fact that some "Men of God" deceives and gain from that freedom or Innocence. Well, no one is perfect but the truth and reality must still be told.

Nice one dude. 

@Enigma:

"wordtalk" has expressed his own convictions - the fact that he disagrees with the RCCG position speaks volumes about his mindset - he "reasons" and what he is saying is same as what we say - "IF" it is voluntary and based on full disclosure, then it is fine! This more so when its not done for gain or as an investment but for worship as he stated. Let's cross the blindside bridge IF we get there.

My only fear was those parasites who hung on to his words as support for their own avaricious practise. Now that he has clarified his position, we both know that to these, he has become an anti-tither since he shares our position.

@Nuclearboy

What wordtalk has said is fine as it goes. However, sometimes what is left unsaid even "speaks" more volume.

Let me boil down my issues to three questions ---- an honest and straightforward answer to each would clarify a lot.

1. Is it wrong to oppose the teaching of tithing as compulsory or should this just be tolerated?

2. Is the "voluntary" tithing to be done only using money or can it be done in any other form e.g. with food crops, clothing etc?

3. Is the "voluntary" tithing to be done only by giving money (or any other thing acceptable) in/to "church" or can the tither instead choose to give the "tithe" to widows, orphans or other needy charitable causes?

As I said, an honest and straightforward answer to each would clarify a lot of things.

@Enigma:

I see your point now! Lawyers desire for absolute clarity negating the fine print!

I think "wordtalk" covered these when he used the word Voluntary!

That word gives the "tither" full and TOTAL right to disburse as he decides - as cash, groundnuts, goats or a computer! It also allows his right in deciding where he "GIVES" his tithe!

"wordtalk" will soon become very unpopular on this site for daring to have his on mind and disagreeing with the MoG championers

We will see, my dear friend, we will see. I would like to accept what you say but if "voluntary" really means "voluntary" then why all the rigmarole on various threads and why all the invective --- especially at garyarnold. I think it was nlmediator who made an acute observation asking whether there was an ulterior motive (actually I have my own theory as to that).

But I am happy to wait and see, like I said.

I have an idea of your theory (history); but we champion truth and thus can't allow emotions and\or suspicion sway our thinking!

Wordtalk has in his defence one crucial issue and I'll not make that mistake twice. I read his post askance and asked questions based on my understanding. So maybe "garyarnold" did same but rather than confirm, he went ahead on the premise as he saw it and "wordtalk" balked at that!

Let's leave it at that!

While we're waiting to see, let me make an important observation:

nuclearboy:

"wordtalk" has expressed his own convictions - the fact that he disagrees with the RCCG position speaks volumes about his mindset - he "reasons" and what he is saying is same as what we say - "IF" it is voluntary and based on full disclosure, then it is fine! This more so when its not done for gain or as an investment but for worship as he stated. Let's cross the blindside bridge IF we get there.

My only fear was those parasites who hung on to his words as support for their own avaricious practise. Now that he has clarified his position, we both know that to these, he has become an anti-tither since he shares our position.

Lol. Actually, I'm not aching to correct anything you have said, even where you assume I've become an "anti-tither" (which I am not). I read you in context and don't think there's any issue there.

Indeed I believe in the veracity of tithing - for emphasis, I tithe in church and encourage others to do so. If people feel otherwise, there's no need for me to force or manipulate them to change their minds in order to start tithing. To force anyone to believe what I believe is not spiritual in the least, and will neither bring any glory to Christ nor even help the believer who's been forced into anything.

Having said all that, what I cannot defend are two things:

(a) the anti-tithing campaign to stop every other Christian from tithing altogether; and
(b) the pro-tithing campaign to force tithing upon all Christians

These two positions are simply noise making (my POV) and cannot be intelligently or Biblically defended. They are also quite a world apart from the idea of 'voluntary tithing' among Christians. The typical "anti-tithers" who argue that 'there's no place for tithing in Christianity' are not saying the same thing as that Christians can 'tithe voluntarily' - otherwise they will not go to great lengths to argue against tithing in the first place! To claim that these two diametrically opposed views are one and the same thing is plainly ludicrous.

However, what necessitates my comments here is the important point Enigma made: "sometimes what is left unsaid even "speaks" more volume" - and I totally agree! Which is why I'd just say that whether we tithe or express our giving in other ways, we must not ignore the serious problems of financial mismanagement, resource abuses and sacrilegious scandals from many 'pastors'. I think it should be obvious to all that these are the underlying concerns as to why many people react against any mention of tithing in the Church. These problems are deeper than arguments 'for' or 'against' tithes among Christians; and joining the anti-tithing bandwagon to campaign against tithing is not going to resolve these problems at all.

So, while affirming that Christians can indeed express their giving through tithing in a responsible manner, I don't find the anti-tithing position to be either meaningful or fruitful.

^^^ So could you try and give honest and straightforward answers to these two questions?


1. Is the "voluntary" tithing to be done only using money or can it be done in any other form e.g. with food crops, clothing etc?

2. Is the "voluntary" tithing to be done only by giving money (or any other thing acceptable) in/to "church" or can the tither instead choose to give the "tithe" to widows, orphans or other needy charitable causes?

^^

Actually, I was going to pause and leave it there as nuclearboy has said. But if you can bear with my answers, then here they are:

Enigma:

1. Is the "voluntary" tithing to be done only using money or can it be done in any other form e.g. with food crops, clothing etc?

2. Is the "voluntary" tithing to be done only by giving money (or any other thing acceptable) in/to "church" or can the tither instead choose to give the "tithe" to widows, orphans or other needy charitable causes?

The one thing to observe is that tithing (or any other Christian form of giving) should not be stereotypical or legalistic. With that, I would answer that -

1. I have not argued that tithing is "ONLY MONEY" - but that should not lead to facetious remarks such as tithing 'trash from trash can'. What I tried to say is that there is good reason to include money in tithing, contrary to the popular anti-tithing argument that Biblical tithes are "only food". Many of those who tithe voluntarily express theirs through financial gifts - if others feel otherwise, I am not going to take up issues with them.

2. I believe that tithing should be given in Church where ministry for the care of widows, orphans and other needy causes could be (please note: "could be" administered from. Others feel that they cannot give money in Church - whether through tithing or other forms of offerings: it's up to them. Yet, giving in Church should not be confused with giving to other causes - they are two independent facets of this ministration.

Let me try again: there is this fellow Mr Christian who earns 1000 per month. Every month he takes aside 100 and gives it to widows, orphanages and other charities. He may then sometimes give 50 in church in a month or sometimes less to the church.

Is Mr Christian a "tither"?

Enigma:

]tithes does not have to be taken into only "church"

Why

Enigma:

but can instead also be given to widows, orphans and other needy people etc, they are only playing games and some of us can see through the chicanery.

Then it wouldn't be appropriate to call it "Tithe" after all, or would it?

^^

Enigma:

Let me try again: there is this fellow Mr Christian who earns 1000 per month. Every month he takes aside 100 and gives it to widows, orphanages and other charities. He may then sometimes give 50 in church in a month or sometimes less to the church.

Is Mr Christian a "tither"?

I sense that is a hypothetical case. Again, this is my answer:

2. I believe that tithing should be given in Church where ministry for the care of widows, orphans and other needy causes could be (please note: "could be" administered from. Others feel that they cannot give money in Church - whether through tithing or other forms of offerings: it's up to them. Yet, giving in Church should not be confused with giving to other causes - they are two independent facets of this ministration.

wordtalk:

While we're waiting to see, let me make an important observation:

Lol. Actually, I'm not aching to correct anything you have said, even where you assume I've become an "anti-tither" (which I am not). I read you in context and don't think there's any issue there.

Indeed I believe in the veracity of tithing - for emphasis, I tithe in church and encourage others to do so. If people feel otherwise, there's no need for me to force or manipulate them to change their minds in order to start tithing. To force anyone to believe what I believe is not spiritual in the least, and will neither bring any glory to Christ nor even help the believer who's been forced into anything.

Having said all that, what I cannot defend are two things:

(a) the anti-tithing campaign to stop every other Christian from tithing altogether; and
(b) the pro-tithing campaign to force tithing upon all Christians

These two positions are simply noise making (my POV) and cannot be intelligently or Biblically defended. They are also quite a world apart from the idea of 'voluntary tithing' among Christians. The typical "anti-tithers" who argue that 'there's no place for tithing in Christianity' are not saying the same thing as that Christians can 'tithe voluntarily' - otherwise they will not go to great lengths to argue against tithing in the first place! To claim that these two diametrically opposed views are one and the same thing is plainly ludicrous.

However, what necessitates my comments here is the important point Enigma made: "sometimes what is left unsaid even "speaks" more volume" - and I totally agree! Which is why I'd just say that whether we tithe or express our giving in other ways, we must not ignore the serious problems of financial mismanagement, resource abuses and sacrilegious scandals from many 'pastors'. I think it should be obvious to all that these are the underlying concerns as to why many people react against any mention of tithing in the Church. These problems are deeper than arguments 'for' or 'against' tithes among Christians; and joining the anti-tithing bandwagon to campaign against tithing is not going to resolve these problems at all.

So, while affirming that Christians can indeed express their giving through tithing in a responsible manner, I don't find the anti-tithing position to be either meaningful or fruitful.

Makes a whole lot of sense

wordtalk:

^^
I sense that is a hypothetical case. Again, this is my answer:

2. I believe that tithing should be given in Church where ministry for the care of widows, orphans and other needy causes could be (please note: "could be" administered from. Others feel that they cannot give money in Church - whether through tithing or other forms of offerings: it's up to them. Yet, giving in Church should not be confused with giving to other causes - they are two independent facets of this ministration.

Let me try once more!  

There is this fellow Mr Christian who earns 1000 per month. Every month he takes aside 100, he buys food stuff, clothing, hygiene products etc, and gives these things (not money) to widows, orphanages and other charities. He may then sometimes give 50 in church in a month or sometimes less to the church.

Is Mr Christian a "tither"?

Enigma:


Let me try once more!

There is this fellow Mr Christian who earns 1000 per month. Every month he takes aside 100, he buys food stuff, clothing, hygiene products etc, and gives these things (not money) to widows, orphanages and other charities. He may then sometimes give 50 in church in a month or sometimes less to the church.

Is Mr Christian a "tither"?

Again my answer:

2. I believe that tithing should be given in Church where ministry for the care of widows, orphans and other needy causes could be (please note: "could be" administered from. Others feel that they cannot give money in Church - whether through tithing or other forms of offerings: it's up to them. Yet, giving in Church should not be confused with giving to other causes - they are two independent facets of this ministration.

To answer wordtalks questions to me, "What does the Hebrew word 'TEBUAH' mean to you?"

It depends on its usage.  I would have to see the context of the subject before I could tell you what tebuah meant in a particular sentence.

It's like asking what does the word "increase" mean to you.  Well, let's look at Webster's Dictionary:

#1 - to make greater, as in number, size, strength, or quality; augment; add to: to increase taxes.

But now let's look at definition #9:  produce of the earth.

So increase can mean greater in size, but can also mean produce of the earth.

Whenever we find the word "increase" in the Bible, when referring to the tithe, it always means produce of the earth if kept in context.  Same in Proverbs 9 - increase means produce of the earth.

Definition #10:  10. product; profit; interest.

Nowhere does it say "income."  Definition #10, however, would be the closest to income, but although profit is income, wages are not profit.

Now I direct my question to Nuclearboy.

Nuke, do you think the responses meet (or amount to the same as) this your post below?

nuclearboy:

@Enigma:

I see your point now! Lawyers desire for absolute clarity negating the fine print!

I think "wordtalk" covered these when he used the word Voluntary!

That word gives the "tither" full and TOTAL right to disburse as he decides - as cash, groundnuts, goats or a computer! It also allows his right in deciding where he "GIVES" his tithe!

"wordtalk" will soon become very unpopular on this site for daring to have his on mind and disagreeing with the MoG championers

@Enigma,

Wordtalk is not going to answer your specific question because wordtalk is a coward when it comes to answering specific questions.

Since tithe simply means tenth, giving any tenth should qualify as a voluntary tithe. Therefore, if you take ten dollars to church, and you give one dollar, you have tithed; thus, you are a tither. If you give a tenth of anything to anyone, you are a tither.

Since wordtalk doesn't accept God's definition for His tithe as being binding now that we are under grace, there is no longer a definition for tithe other than tenth. Wordtalk has lowered himself to accept what pastors teach as the tithe today, whether mandatory or voluntary.

garyarnold:

Nowhere does it say "income."  Definition #10, however, would be the closest to income, but although profit is income, wages are not profit.

Did you contact other BIBLICAL resources? Let me give you just two:

BROWN-DRIVER BRIGGS Hebrew Definition:

1) produce, product, revenue
1a) product, yield, crops (of the earth usually)
1b) income, revenue
1c) gain (of wisdom) (figuratively)
1d) product of lips (figuratively)

and -

STRONG' HEBREW and GREEK Definitions -

תּבוּאה
tebû'âh
teb-oo-aw'
From H935; income, that is, produce (literally or figuratively): - fruit, gain, increase, revenue.

Other Dictionaries of Biblical Words may also help point to the same thing.

But here are questions I hope you would answer, and in case you didn't understand them, let me put them more simply for you:

 - (a) where in the Bible (your own favourite KJV) have you read of the word "ASSET"?

 - (b) what word do you know in the Bible that is used for INCOME and REVENUE?

 - (c) what word do you know in the Bible that is used for "ASSET"?

garyarnold:

Wordtalk is not going to answer your specific question because wordtalk is a coward when it comes to answering specific questions.

Thank you, but I shall not return in kind. I hope those who cheer you up in this behaviour can notice your invectives and not try to amuse themselves when i take you to the cleaners? It is this type of pretentious self-righteousness they never notice before they crawl out seeking to preach "humility" when you're whipped to your hole.

Since tithe simply means tenth, giving any tenth should qualify as a voluntary tithe.

That's plain silly talk from you - and you know it! Readers only have to look at your profile to know that you don't preach anything close to VOLUNTARY TITHE, so please don't try to talk your crap here!

Therefore, if you take ten dollars to church, and you give one dollar, you have tithed; thus, you are a tither. If you give a tenth of anything to anyone, you are a tither.

Indeed - because we have forgotten all too soon that you are the same person who talked about giving a tithe of trash from your trash can, no?

Since wordtalk doesn't accept God's definition for His tithe as being binding now that we are under grace, there is no longer a definition for tithe other than tenth. Wordtalk has lowered himself to accept what pastors teach as the tithe today, whether mandatory or voluntary.

First off, you're trying ever harder to deceive yourself. You seem to be the only troll who has not read that I don't argue in favour of mandatory tithes - and those who have read my comments know what I have been talking about. Second, you only show you never learn anything, even though I have clarified the difference between "DEFINITION" and "APPLICATION". This is why you litter other blogs with your crap, and when you're put in your place, you crawl in here to vomit the same crap!

garyarnold:

@Enigma,

Wordtalk is not going to answer your specific question . . . .

To be honest, I did not expect any different.   In fact I had one more question which I didn't bother to ask; but now I think I'll just put it on the thread for people to ponder.

If a person takes the tenth of his income every month, buys food stuff, clothing, hygiene equipment etc and takes them to "church" in the expectation that the "church" will use these things to help widows, orphans and other needy people etc, is the person a tither?